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ERIC SMITH INTERVIEW-EARLY ACCESS AND AD FREE (Patreon)

Published:
2021-08-19 20:03:13
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2026-06
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Content

Eric Smith‘s early access and ad-free interview is here for our supporters.

Tomorrow evening we’ll premiere this interview for the public on your YouTube channel,  and we’d still love to see you there on chat. 

We’ll follow it up with a live TGIF with Hidden guest and retired attorney Lori Hellis. 

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Eric Smith Interview AD-FREE and EARLY ACCESS

Thank you for your support! Here is Eric's interview ad-free.

Comments

Lauren Rencher

This is a great interview but so hard to watch. I’m currently taking a break midway through because I can’t fathom how he still sees both Chad and Julie as being visionaries. If the reality that JJ and Tylee were buried in Chad’s backyard didn’t make it immediately clear that both Chad and Julie are completely fraudulent then he’s beyond reach I’m afraid. It’s so upsetting to me.

Joanna Mulvaney

What I am hearing is that the mythology of Mormonism/Christianity was unsatisfying for a lot of these people, but they were too afraid to say “maybe my family and neighbours are wrong” and go off to become a Buddhist or a Taoist or something. So they twisted themselves into pretzels to incorporate these fundamentally incompatible elements of other religions that suited their temperament and hopes and dreams better. Then Chad the scumbag realised there was an opportunity for power and control, him being able to make stuff up on the fly and pretend to have all the answers, and set himself up as the guru battling Julie to be top dog, since women should be looking after the babies (ie doing all the hard work and money making while he shows up and takes credit). Edit: ok these people are spending all their time watching wuxia soap operas online. It’s the only explanation.

Joanna Mulvaney

“Chad is gifted with the ability to tell me exactly what I wanted to hear!”

Marcella Able

Yes, I too am finding it hard to believe that he is describing Chad as a good, humble guy & still believes that he has visionary gifts. I feel Chad, Julie & this group are only seeking what is popular & money making. When Chad starting distancing himself from Eric & Julie was probably when he started a fascination with hooking up with women (Lori & other female group members) etc. When theses people say they got their answers from God, are they also delusional? Praying is not (my opinion) getting answers to tell you what to believe & do, but to give you strength to answer you own questions. I get so confused when people of this group or groups say I need to ask God about that & they wait for his answer or get a answer??

Susan Dickman

I cannot even finish watching this man’s diatribe on how learned he is and how he has studied and knows all this crap. I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and if I had questions about my faith or my religion, I would get on my knees and discuss this with my Heavenly Father. My daughter told me that perhaps these people who “claim to have been members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-days Saints” have not looked and studied to find the Church. It took me years to find and become a member of my church. I am by no means saying that the people in the Church are perfect because I would have to be the first to say that I am definitely not perfect or even close to it. I believe what my heart tells me is true for me. So they do not like what the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teaches? Fine, move on—do not spread gossip and garbage and kill innocent people because you are trying to make your religion what you want it to be. I’m sorry for my rant. I am just sickened by these false prophets or whatever they call themselves. Thank you, Lauren and John for sharing this information so I may be made more aware of and learn the workings of cults. Maybe my learning will help someone in my family down the road.

Emily

I am from another Pentecostal faith and tbh I have seen similar versions of what happened here happen 20-30 years ago in my own church…I also know what these people become that many years later - just more lost souls scrambling to put their minds back together and understand what happened while denying their own agency in what occurred. Those without agency are the children they drag along for their existential crisis - I am one and wish so much that just one of these people would speak about the children who’s lives were lost…they don’t seem to do much other than state in passing how sad it is about “the children”…they don’t get it.

Evelyn Yallen

My biggest takeaway from this is that Eric could cry for Chad’s children but not for the living victims. I found that interesting and a little disturbing. I still think Chad was most interested in being one of the cool kids/leaders. So he cherry picked what he saw as most compelling from others - Julie’s NDEs, Eric Smith’s multiple probations, maybe some of Shawn Littlebear’s Native American shamanism translated into Chadspeak as zombies or evil spirits. His audience was ripe for this kind of thinking, and he took full advantage of that. I haven’t read his writing at all, but I really doubt he ever had an NDE, or that his books predict anything. And … there have been multiple instances in the past century alone that people could have interpreted (and some probably did) as end-times related. Con artists pick what will sway the most people in their immediate orbit. I doubt Chad is much different. As for Eric, I’m surprised he still sees Chad as having any valid insight at all. I would love to know who else he thinks is still following Chad, though.

tora Johns

Not all the way through yet (and I might listen again to clarify) but Eric Smith seems to be the only one who is owning these beliefs. I admire him for that part at least and appreciate his honesty in helping us understand. I'm not sure how, as Lauren Rencher above said that he still thinks Chad is a visionary, although I get the impression with Lauren asking these questions he's hearing it back and thinking hmm that's nuts lol, I reckon he'll be re thinking his ideas. Another great interview Lauren, thank you

tora Johns

And I'm not in any way whatsoever religious, I'm not a believer, I don't believe in life after death, the whole religious thing is totally unfathomable to me, so maybe I see it from a different angle. My great Aunt also thought she was part of the 144,000 lol going back to Northern Ireland in the late 1940's/ early 1950's... she was a nasty woman by all accounts and used to terrify my mum..

CuriousinColorado

This is a lot to digest. I think I will need to listen to it again. I think it definitely demonstrates that this offshoot of the Mormon faith is alive and well, and people still believe in it. I find the comparison to dirty words on the internet a rather poor analogy. Thank you Lauren for one incredible interview. You definitely have found your calling in journalism.

Tamara Wakeman Sukohl

I think that Eric has a guilty heart. His voice is nice and it kind of puts me in a trance and when he talks it seems like everything is going to be alright. I can see where people would believe him. He seems sincere but there is something that doesn’t set well with me. I feel like he is hiding something. I am surprised that he did this interview. Lauren you are so professional, making him feel welcome and safe. Thanking him for his answers. I believe that there is a lot more to him than we saw in your interview. He is another character that is hard to read. He talks a lot without saying much.

Gena
>>66110802

Oh my gosh! I like this analysis! But I have no idea what a wuxia soap opera is, so off I go to figure that out! Lol

Gena

So am I wrong in understanding that this guy is the actual king pin? He is the one who made up multiple probations? I’ll share this. I am an active member of the LDS church, and I also love Korean dramas. I also know the tiniest bit about some of the Asian religions. When I started to think about reincarnation, after watching a couple dramas where it played a large part in the plot, it was a little hopeful, it did sound appealing. Not part of my belief system, but also not offensive. It fits my belief that God is a good and caring father. However, I felt it was very dangerous, because in these dramas, and in some literature, there is this almost sinister undercurrent that allows people to think “Well, I’ll just die and things will be better in my next life”, or “I’ll kill my kids or spouse or whoever, and they will have a better life next time”. (Super simplified of course.) So, this guy, in my mind, now becomes the one who planted the seed in Chad’s tiny little brain. And therefore ushered in these events. Aided of course by the other like minded minions….

Gena
>>66114264

I listened to him totally state out and out lies about the church! Say he is knowledgeable and then completely say something that is 100% a lie about what we believe! I was thinking to myself, for someone who says he knows the gospel, how does he get so much wrong?

RobynB

Hi Lauren, thank you for another great interview, it has given me another puzzle piece of information. I know this is over simplifying but Eric, Julie, Chad and other likeminded folks have some serious delusions of grandeur. Most of us live in the real world and can see how dangerous this grandiose thinking can be. I can’t articulate because it’s a gut reaction but something about Eric makes me uncomfortable. He appears charming but I sense something “off”. I would be curious to know what John’s thoughts are, and yours, if you’re comfortable sharing.

Jana Smith

Wow! Another layer of the onion being pulled back. I feel like the more layers we get into these belief systems, the more confused I am about all of the crazy that is here. How is it possible to have so many followers and believers. Thank you Lauren for digging and pulling back those layers.

RobynB

Dr. John, to show I do pay attention to what you say, I found 53:03 to be a big childhood trigger for Eric.

Maraley Santos

And also Lauren, excellent job not pushing back so hard and just letting the man talk. He deserved his say, no matter how much we may disagree, and you pushed back at the perfect times. Great job!

Emily Maupin
>>66111228

Interesting how no one was Sam the baker or Mary the maid. They're always exalted.

Stephanie Graham

He seems as if he is going through something similar to the deconstruction that is taking place within the evangelical churches. Some people deconstruct and build something new while others convert because you realize it's a bunch of lies. My issue which seems to be the same across the board was how highly he spoke of Chad. He still believes what Chad was teaching and that is quite concerning.

Stephanie Malmstrom
>>66114791

“Chadspeak”=incoherent babbling, IMO. What are all of these people smoking?? It’s unreal to me. 🤦🏼‍♀️

Emily Maupin

Another well done interview, Lauren. It's hard to listen to, much like girl on fire was. The lack of accountability these very gullible people have amazes me. I have no problem with the belief in reincarnation, I'm just waiting for one of them to say they were a slave not Jesus' side kick.

Tad Auty
>>66122038

I don’t think he’s the king pin- but he could be the most literate of them- thus making him an authority on his ideas of the bible or LDS history He would be more well read than most of them- But I’m not sure he wanted to lead anything That was more Julie and Chads ego style I think

Sandra K.

Ugh! I had to push thru listening to this. I don't know how you do it, Lauren, but God Bless You for hanging in there. These people just make up their own religion according to their own thoughts and desires. You know how they say that a man's a fool who attempts to serve as his own lawyer? Well, the same is true for a man who attempts to serve as his own God. Just sayin'! PS Another awesome job of interviewing! You're the best, Lauren.

Sue Komernicky

Another excellent interview Lauren! Although I do not have the same belief system as Eric, he has not taken it to the level that Chad has & hopefully never will. I think he is having a very difficult time reconciling the Chad he knew with the evil that Chad became. The rippling effect is just so awful & perhaps the evilness of what Chad & Lori have become is a wake up call.

Tara

I couldn't tell if his "beliefs" were so strong that he was willing to lose almost everything for them. Or he lost so much because of mistakes that he made that he is now clinging to these beliefs as a lifeline. But nothing about his body language, facial expression, or voice indicates he is living in joy. He's about as lost as a soul can be, especially when it's clear he is wanting to continue to follow Chad and Julie. But Julie has become increasingly unhinged and Chad is in jail... possibly heading to his death. Well, good thing he found Donna Seraphina to be his spiritual leader now. He's headed down his own dark hole and doesn't even realize how far he has gone. On one hand I feel for him, on the other it feels like he has learned nothing from his experiences. I do appreciate several nuggets that he shared that help explain elements of the whole situation with Chad, Lori, Julie and their actions.

Gena
>>66122038

He might be, or just seem, well read. However, he gets a lot very wrong. I didn’t find him knowledgeable, more spoon fed and surface level. Definitely not historically or doctrinally accurate. He certainly likes to make himself out to be knowledgeable, and maybe he didn’t want to necessarily be the “leader”, but I think he takes a lot of pleasure in letting people know he put his made up doctrine into peoples minds and persuaded them in his thinking. He’s a lot like Lori in that way.

Gena
>>66110802

BTW- I think you pegged it calling him a guru. I think that is exactly why he was so willing to do the interview.

Angie Humpert Miller

I had several “did he really just say that” moments so it was hard to get through. I’ll have to listen to it again. I was shocked about the psychic Donna conversation. I’m not well versed with LDS religion, but as a Christian I can’t imagine that would be looked upon favorably. However, isn’t Chad’s teachings about the same thing... seeing beyond the veil and using a pendulum for answers?

Lynette Butler

Here is the great inconsistency. He asks us not to judge others’ journeys, to be compassionate, and yet he savagely judges the leaders of churches and in government as people “feeding on their sheep” rather than as other equally earnest seekers of goodness and truth. He defends his damming judgement by loudly pronouncing “it’s scriptural!” though the scriptures don’t name names. Only he does that. He reserves the right to decide who is being called out, never considering it might be him and his followers. He needs to keep his own counsel.

Bludani
>>66114264

I am curious...what lies about the church are you referring to? What did he get so wrong?

Lee Howell

I appreciate this interview so much and it brought back memories when my much younger self searched for meaning in the ineffable. My TED talk on multiple probation/reincarnation is “You’re not special because in one of thousands of rebirths you were a BMOC. Just because you were married to this person in one life, doesn’t mean there weren’t thousands of other lifetimes where the relationship was parent-child, sibling, enemy, teacher-student, neighbor, stranger. What you do today is more spiritually important than a long forgotten body with personality and accomplishments you might have had. Being prideful about multiple probations is like ancestor worship without the ancestor.”

Hidden True Crime

We are LOVING these comments and conversation. John and I have been discussing so much of what many of you have shared or noticed, and we do plan to share our thoughts soon. We are also noticing that some of the great comments you’ve left, and that we’ve seen in our email aren’t showing up here. We don’t know why. It seems to be a Patreon glitch and we hope it is fixed soon.

Julie Holden

Mine was one of the comments that disappeared. I looked into it, and it seems Patreon's spam filters will sometimes get a bit over-zealous in deleting long comments. They also target threads where one person comments repeatedly. I don't know whether they're looking to filter bots, or whether it's concerns about people who post too much/too often. But that's apparently the issue. It's frustrating, because topics like this are very thought provoking! I love all the long comments and responses! But I understand that Patreon has to do things to keep spam from becoming a nuisance.

Julie Holden
>>66148451

I love that!! It amuses me that Chad and his buddies were all the BMOCs in the past. Y'know, like a significant figure from the Bible would never come back as, say, a Buddhist monk, or an Indian mystic. I also assume Eric et al. believe that souls are gendered, because I noticed none of the men have past lives as women, and vice versa. Lastly, since the earth's population has been on a constant increase, where do the new souls come from? Reincarnation math is complicated, yo! This concludes my response to your TED Talk. 😉

Julie Holden

Alrighty, here's my comment that was deleted. We'll see if the filter gets it again, since it's quite long, lol. ----- Fascinating. To me, Eric comes across as extremely intelligent, with a very sharp mind and coherent, *consistent* arguments about his beliefs. He's clearly done a years-long, deep, and comprehensive study of scripture. He's sincere in his beliefs, and his arguments as to why they are valid are compelling and logical — at least within the structure he presents. And all that is pretty scary because in addition — and most importantly(!) — he seems to have utterly shut down any kind of compassion, sympathy, and sadness about the murder of two innocent children. I'll have to watch again, but my initial takeaway is that he got most animated when Lauren brought up something that troubled her about current LDS doctrine, but remained utterly detached the several times he was asked about JJ and Tylee (i.e. he hadn't even heard about Lori, he never met her children). Even when he did comment about wishing/wanting them to be okay, his focus was more about still trusting that Chad was a good guy. And yet, as an a-religious person, I will admit that I truly did find many of his comments, arguments, and theories very compelling. If this had been a lecture about contemporary, non-traditional LDS beliefs, I would have thought, "This guy has a lot of great points." In particular, I think his criticism of modern Western religious structures is valid, albeit quite cynical. He seems to have lost any appreciation for the community, support, and comfort that a congregation of like-minded believers can offer. I will end with a quote from the interview that I found to be quite shocking — and as I said, I am unchurched and agnostic (on a good day). This took even *me* so aback that I scribbled it down on a scrap of paper. "The LDS church as we know it is, I believe, in a state of apostasy, and is not taking seriously the covenants that it makes, and is frankly neglecting and abusing the members, the flock, just as prophesied." In many ways, I think Eric is the most potentially dangerous of all the people I've seen interviewed thus far. He's smart, sincere, and convincing. I think his intelligence blinds him to any ability to be *any* kind of judge of character. And with as many warnings as he gives with regard to allowing ego to cloud one's thinking, I hope he heeds his own words. PS: Comparing the misuse of multiple-probation doctrine, as Chad & Lori did, to the misuse of the internet is facile and simplistic. While I have no issue with the concept of reincarnation, and in fact have my own beliefs in that realm, I think it's insulting to effectively equate the destruction of multiple marriages, the murder of two unwanted spouses, and the murder of two beautiful children with the oopsies of seeing naughty words and pornographic material on the internet. Find a better analogy, Eric. That one really sucks.

Julie Holden
>>66165213

Joanna Mulvaney responded to my comment, which I appreciated, so I'm pasting that here as well! ----- "He’s not smart, he just talks very confidently and people think nobody would have the chutzpah to just make things up and sound so sure and authoritative so they assume he knows what he’s talking about. This is the dunning Krueger effect- he thinks he is an expert on theology because he is extremely ignorant about religions outside his own."

Georgia

My input: that’s what you call putting lipstick on a pig. And then there is the response to your question about their religion not bearing fruit, “it’s been hard on Lori and Chad.” No mention of the DEAD PEOPLE. He tried his best to normalize his beliefs. Nope.

Stephanie Budge

My motivation for diving into this case so closely was to try to understand how we got here. After a year and a half, this is the interview that started answering that question finally. I could not understand until listening to Eric. I get it now.

Julie Holden
>>66165213

Lastly, here's the reply I posted to Joanna's comment. ----- To me, there's a difference between educated and intelligent. He's self-educated within a very limited sphere of his own choosing — so, he's effectively not very educated at all about world religions. But I still see strong evidence that he has a logical mind, and his approach to things is intellectual, rigorous, and consistent. Again though, and as I mentioned in my original comment, only within the confines of the structure *he* presents. I don't think he makes things up, but I 100% agree that he is willfully ignorant of the world outside his LDS sphere, and has no interest in studying other things, with the exception of those that mostly align with his already-solidified beliefs (e.g. Donna Seraphina).

Lauren

Donna? Donna?! I threw my phone bye bye! I’m sorry I couldn’t finish your awesome video, but. I. Just. CaNt. He is seriously just messing with us?!

Lauren

Grifting scammer

Gena
>>66184395

Agree!!! Gave me the flimflam man vibes to the max!

CuriousinColorado

Does anyone know anything about this Serafina he references in towards the end?

Kim Matheson

Psychic Reverend Donna Seraphina on you tube. Her reading before the children was found was amazingly on point!

Stephanie Malmstrom

Famous last words: “When ego gets involved, there’s going to be problems.” 🤦🏼‍♀️

Rachel Shepard

This was really hard for me to get through. My brain and soul couldn’t handle him avoiding talking about murdered children, but then cried over the grown adult who acted like a fool in front of the media when two children were missing. It seriously stresses me out to think about many people actually think like him, or Chad, or Julie. It’s too much. I yelled at my phone. A lot. But in the same breath I’m glad some are coming forward to share their beliefs. I was hoping you would ask him the good things that come from a belief in multiple probations, cause I don’t get it.

Rachel Shepard
>>66209557

One more thought. When you asked if he knew Tammy, he made it sound like.. not really.. but then why did he seems like he was so close to their children? How involved were chads kids in his belief system and shenanigans??

Sylvia See

Its one thing to believe in multiple probations. Maybe they are wrong, maybe they are right. I guess we will all find out someday. It is quite another thing to be smug and superior about it. Eric talks the talk about everybody getting to decide for themselves, then he says those who do not believe in multiple probations are “ignorant”. Typical. He acts like he has found scholarly proof. Seems to me that for all of his probations and life experience he still has a lot of growing up to do.

JC

I listened to this yesterday, but wanted to go away and think about it for a while. There were a number of interesting things in this interview that helped me to understand how this movement or cult became attractive to others. First of all, Eric is very soft spoken and calm. He seems like a "nice" person, so why wouldn't one want to listen to him. His voice is pretty easy to listen to, which makes the content of what he is saying seem less dangerous or unbelievable. He comes across as confident in his beliefs as well. These kind of behaviors can draw people in. Also, as Lauren and Lori both said last night on TGIF, he used confirmation bias to "prove" his points. He used phrases like "Everybody" or "Vast numbers" of people believe in multiple probations (reincarnation). Well, it's part of the Hindu religion and perhaps others, but that doesn't make it true. He also said: "Don't blame me- blame Isaiah". Again, because something is in the Bible, doesn't mean it's true. The Bible was written by men, supposedly hundreds of years after the alleged events occurred. If a person doesn't engage their critical thinking and really ask probing questions, you can get sucked into things pretty quickly. Many of us search for meaning, but when these searches lead us toward adultery and murder, we are probably going in the wrong direction. I'm not saying Eric went in that direction, but he clearly wanted to believe the things he "discovered".

Sherri Haab

I posted this on FB too: Thoughts on interview with Eric with Hidden: A True Crime Podcast- CHURCH OF THE FIRSTBORN-not a mystery or hidden concept! Church=The gospel of Jesus Christ (his commandments and teachings) Firstborn=Jesus Christ, so simply put people that belong to the “Church of the Firstborn” are those that have followed Jesus with all their heart and actions. They are committed to become like him. Mystery solved! Eric says in his interview that the LDS church doesn’t talk about this much. Want to know why? It’s because 99.99% of us have a hard-enough time doing the basics such as: keeping the commandments (even the 10 commandments), serving others, not judging others and not reading scriptures to learn how to be like the Savior. Here’s how you become part of the Church of the Firstborn: go weed your neighbors garden, always see the good in everyone, don’t judge, follow the commandments to the best of your ability, etc. Jesus teaches all of this in the New Testament by his words and actions. These fringe groups want to skip right past the heavy lifting and concentrate on the END reward, they fixate on concepts like this that are the end result of a lifelong refining process. But I can assure you there is no mystical secret group that is exclusive. Want to understand it from Bible scriptures? Read King James Bible: Hebrews Chapter 12 and especially verse 23. Perfect explanation of the whole concept. REINCARNATION: Here is an interesting question for Dr. John Mathias: Is there any data or studies on the type of people who believe in reincarnation? It seems that people that either A) have low self-esteem and fantasize about being someone with a different identify? B) Have had a hard or dissatisfying life, trauma or whatever. C) Have delusions of grandeur thinking they have or will be someone famous or influential. I know for myself, even though life is hard I would never want to be anyone but myself even though imperfect. If this has never been studied it sure would be a fascinating topic for a grad student!

Sherri Haab

PS I understand Reincarnation is part of some religious belief systems like Hinduism, so I am not including that as part of a study group. I'm talking about people raised without this being a concept familiar to their culture or religion.

Stephanie Malmstrom
>>66222739

It was also clear that he “selectively” chooses which parts of the Bible he clings to as fact, and those he is convinced were erased/deleted/altered to suit his own purposes and narrative. If one principle, why not others? His reasoning is like Swiss cheese...all kinds of holes.

Erica A. Zwick
>>66165213

I, too, am not a believer. I have been an atheist since I was a child. I did not get the impression he was intelligent AT ALL! Quite the opposite. "He has a logical mind, and his approach to things is intellectual, rigorous, and consistent." I saw quite the opposite. My gripe with him is his complete lack of logic and rigor. He’s “certain” that the concept of multiple probations was “scrubbed out” of Biblical texts, but the editors missed some stuff and was left in. He's so certain, but he has no proof, just his certainty. Then he says,"“The idea that one life is all you get is totally laughable. It’s super ignorant.” Again, no logic, no critical thinking, just "belief." He says there is no scripture to support eternal families. So where is the scriptural support of multiple probations?

Julie Holden
>>66198858

I know, right? Projection much?! What is it with allllll the people in Chad & Lori's sphere, and the projection? So common among them! So weird!

Erica A. Zwick
>>66110802

Absolutely. It was all about power and control. I have been reading church documents, and OBEDIENCE is of the utmost importance. People like Chad and Julie did want to be obedient, but they wanted others to be obedient to them. Since their target audience was raised to be obedient, it was like shooting fish in a barrel.

LauraK
>>66132849

I was honestly disturbed by his comments about not judging. People have been murdered, families have been broken, and I'm sure countless other people harmed by the arrogant power-mongering that the specific group of people with which he is involved has perpetrated. All there is to do now is judge and think critically. His clinging to the multitude of "beliefs" he's spouting seems desperate. I believe in faith and that having faith is an important component of being human. Even if your beliefs are amorphous, I expect that there would be some inner coherency between them. All I heard was mental and emotional gymnastics that sound like someone who is lost but is able to pitch his voice as confident and learned.

RobynB

Another insightful interview Dr John and Lauren, thank you again. I jumped in a little late this week but some of my first thoughts from the 48 hour interview…Chad has been writing on the blank slate of his children since birth. I’m not in the least surprised that they are downplaying their fathers role. He is the patriarch and I imagine with passive mother these kids are (consciously or unconsciously) teeing up Chad’s defense. What is shocking to me is the words they chose to downplay Chad’s role, I think it’s illogical and shows the cult brainwashing since birth. Its rare for those closest to a monster to see his true colors if that’s not the relationship they have with that person.