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Buffy 7x17 (Extended) - Lies My Parents Told Me (Patreon)

Published:
2024-04-12 18:00:08
Edited:
2024-07-12 14:41:43
Imported:
2026-06
Tags:

Content

reaction link: click here.

mommy issues?

Files

Comments

Keenan White

The sequel to “Fool for Love” that we didn’t know we needed! One of my favorites from this season.

Girl4Music

Domi, the reason why so many people like ‘Storyteller’ isn’t necessarily because they like Andrew. It’s because Buffy fans love the experimental and character-study-esque episodes. True, ‘Storyteller’ doesn’t come anywhere close to episodes like ‘The Body’ or ‘Hush’ or even ‘Restless’. But people like it for its quirky meta cleverness. Even I do.

Khanach

It's funny that they bring back the scene from 5x22, because the only one that openly supported Buffy regarding Dawn was Spike. "Till the end of the world, even it happens to be tonight". Of course he failed miserably at it, but hey... And of course you don't have to like "Storyteller". People like this show for very different reasons, and because of that we prefer different sides of it. Odds are you will find yourself in the minority here and there (Xander is my favourite character, so I should know), but there's nothing wrong with that. That's part of the reason I watch reactions to the show, to hear different takes and opinions about it.

Girl4Music

The question is. How can Spike still love his mother even as a soulless vampire and she can’t love him as a soulless vampire? Is Spike really that special? Why is he such an outlier?

Captain Hammer

That's a good question. I think that when humans become vampires they turn on a variable scale of how much of their humanity they keep. Angeles having no humanity and Spike having humanity as detected by the Judge for example. Maybe it's random or maybe it's based on their capacity for love in their human lives. William dedicated his life to writing about love and caring for his sickly mother who he also deeply loved. Spike being on the far end of the scale is likely extremely rare but Dru was able to detect it with her powers of vision and is why she decided to turn him.

Girl4Music

It’s like Spike retains so much of his humanity that it overrides the demon and depending on the company he keeps, he is influenced one way (good) or the other (evil). It’s almost like for him - it’s demonic corruption - but for every other vampire - it’s demonic possession because the human in them is good and dead. It’s like all that’s happened to Spike is a transformation of his being, not a taking of it, because he clearly is the exact same entity as William, just with vampiric instincts and impulses. All that’s happened with Spike is an evolution from one species to another but it’s not really played that way for any other vampire. It’s more like an infection for them. It seems to be a classic case of Nature vs Nurture. Spike always had profound love in him whether human or demon and all it really depended on with which way he would go with that deep internal love is external influence. That’s not the case with any other vampire. Any other vampire could not be capable of feeling love. Not a pure unconditioned love anyway. Spike really is so special. Listen, even though I don’t think it was necessary for Spike to get a soul because I believe he could turn good regardless. But I do like the parallels between William and ensouled Spike. They show he was always more human than demon. And all the soul does is just shows us what he can be like with an internal moral compass as opposed to an external one. When he is fully aware of the pain and destruction he has caused.

ghostofdurruti

Although I also love the scene from 5x22 in which Buffy says to hell with the world if saving it means killing Dawn and "the last thing she'll see is me protecting her"... I think the fact that she would no longer do that is a sign that she's in a better place mentally and emotionally now. At that point, she had just lost her mom, and the prospect of losing her sister too was simply too much to bear. She's not saying she wouldn't still sacrifice herself in Dawn's place. She's not even saying she would pick the world over Dawn (after all, it's not like Dawn could survive the end of the world). She's just saying that if the choices she faced were once again "Dawn dies" or "Dawn dies (and so does everyone else)", she would no longer pick the latter. Which, as beautiful as that moment from 5x22 is... is probably a good thing.

Ron Fehr

The song that triggered Spike, Early One Morning, always has me getting a little nostalgic. In my early elementary school days, I would always hear the song played at the end of a kids show, called The Friendly Giant. It would start with the Giant playing the tune on his recorder (no words, of course).

Ron Fehr

The way I see it, the First finally lost its influence on Spike. As long as the trigger could be reactivated, Spike did not have complete free will. Now he does, and he sees the big picture, something that Robin lost sight of once he found out about Spike and his mom. Buffy had to remind him of what Spike already knew, the mission is what matters.

Pauline Robertson

The Dawn thing makes sense to me, Buffy has grown so much since then (dying can do that to you I guess). I don't get Giles comparing Buffy letting Spike live with letting Dawn die? It's not like an opportunity arose where if Spike died the world would be saved. It makes no sense.

StephanieB

Oh wow, I never knew that was a real song. I thought they made it up for the show. How sweet!

StephanieB

Domi, I love that you caught the parallel of Robin (Hood?) peeking through the blinds vs. him peeking through the bench slats as a little boy. I love visual call-backs like that. There was another near he beginning of the episode when Spike picks up a wooden pole and twirls it in his hand, recalling a move he did on the train with Nikki in "Fool for Love".

StephanieB

Regarding the "hint" that Willow is going to L.A.: I can understand that current reactors would prefer these types of things to be a surprise but in the context of when both series aired, it doesn't make sense. The show creators wanted more viewers- of both shows. At the time, I believe more people were watching Buffy than Angel, so they were probably trying to entice BtVS viewers to go check out Angel. And when Willow shows up on Angel, those viewers may be more excited to then go watch BtVS the following week.

Ron Fehr

I actually only watched both series on dvd, and had finished all seven Buffy seasons before ever watching Angel. So I had no idea who Fred was at the time. And judging from what Andrew said about Fred's voice being slightly effeminate, I was not totally surprised to find out Fred was a woman.

zerofk

I'm glad you see Buffy's bias. A lot of fans are squarely behind Buffy in this episode, but I agree Buffy is very biased. Wood even more so of course. I see Buffy's point: Spike is the strongest fighter besides her. But her argument that Spike's soul would stop him from killing is complete bullshit. He already had a soul when he did the First's bidding. Giles was right: Spike was a problem as long as the trigger was active. And as such his actions make sense. Wood was completely in the wrong though, his reasons for killing Spike were purely selfish. So I agree with Giles most, Buffy second, Wood not at all.

Ron Fehr

I can't agree with you. I don't think that Buffy's judgment was clouded concerning Spike. Once his trigger was deactivated, he had complete free will, and that in itself would stop him from senseless killing. He only went after Robin because of what Robin had planned to do. A natural reaction (although not in my case- religious reasons), don't you think?

Ron Fehr

Fun fact- Although it's not mentioned onscreen, William's mother's name was Anne, the same as Buffy's middle name.

StephanieB

I can't completely disagree that Buffy has had a bit of a blind spot when it comes to Spike. I'm not sure she should have unchained him before they figured out what to do about the trigger. However do I think it really means something to her that he now has a soul - and that he chose to get it. Regardless, now the trigger has been deactivated so I don't see him as a threat anymore. Also, I disagree that the solution to that issue was easy. Spike had to relive a lot of emotional trauma to get to the root of why that song was so painful for him. Personally, I love the story the writers chose to tell and I love that it led to more flashbacks of William (and Dru!). The only part I didn't like was Spike telling Robin that his mom didn't love him. I do not think that is true but I get that Spike was pissed and wanted to lash out at him and hurt him emotionally as well as physically. At first, I was sad that when Spike said "I'm sorry", he wasn't apologizing to Robin, he was apologizing to his mom. But now I get it more; this is how ensouled Spike is different from ensouled Angel- Spike doesn't feel the moral weight of responsibility for every action he did as a soulless demon. "She was a slayer, I was a vampire"- this is something you would never hear Angel say.

zerofk

Once the trigger is deactivated it's fine, but Buffy trusts him *before* that. Her argument to Giles is before they even tried to de-trigger him, and she takes off his chains when the trigger is still very much active.

Ron Fehr

That's not quite what Spike said to Robin. He just said that her love for her son was less important than her duty to protect the world.

StephanieB

I’m pretty sure at one point Spike said, “Unlike you, I had a mother who loved me back.” Perhaps what he meant was that his mom loved him back in the same way and the same amount as he loved her, and Wood’s mom didn’t- but that’s not what he said.

Vicky N

It was not a Buffy and Giles episode as much as it was a Spike episode.

Vicky N

You were wondering how Wood knew about the song, Spike literally said the title.

Vicky N

Far from a monster of the week episode. The whole plot about Spike’s trigger is linked to the main threat of the season.

StephanieB

And I am pretty sure they purposely selected an actress who had a similar look to Buffy as well. Mommy issues, indeed.

Alex Wright

There are also at least some similarities with the backstory of Lestat and his mother in Anne Rice's Vampire Chronicles too, so maybe it's a reference?

Alex Wright

Anyone else see similarities with the backstory of Lestat and his mother in Anne Rice's Vampire Chronicles?