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TikTok v. Garland (Patreon)

Published:
2025-01-28 09:00:10
Imported:
2026-06
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  • FIVEFOUR_TikTok v. Garland_MASTER.mp3
  • TikTok_v._Garland - audiogram.mp4
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Content

The Supreme Court says that you don’t have a constitutional right to short form videos of cute cats. Is it time for a revolution?

Thanks for being a subscriber! We love you and have an exclusive subscriber-only episode coming next week.

5-4 is presented by Prologue Projects. This episode was produced by Dustin DeSoto. Leon Neyfakh and Andrew Parsons provide editorial support. Our researcher is Jonathan DeBruin, and our website was designed by Peter Murphy. Our artwork is by Teddy Blanks at Chips NY, and our theme song is by Spatial Relations.

Follow the show at @fivefourpod on most platforms. On BlueSky, find Peter @notalawyer.bsky.social, Michael @fleerultra.bsky.social, and Rhiannon @aywarhiannon.bsky.social.

Files

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Comments

Crystaline

Everything is so so weird. Thank you for your work! 💞💞

Alcoholic Synonymous

Apropos of nothing I just want Peter to know that Saquon Barkley’s birthday is on February 9th. 💚

Elaine Hall

Wot no originalist take on TikTok?

Stephen Corston

Is anyone else having issues with only this episode showing up on the premium feed on Apple Podcast? (I've tried removing and re-adding the feed)

brennabean

The stupid outfits and chains for Suckerberg actually started a bit ago and it was right around when he bought that huge statue of his wife. So like the blind item is that he got caught having an affair and has been midlife crisising now for like a year

Frances Mary

While I remain sitting in stupid fucking Canada not being able to share anything remotely news related on IG.

Phil

This was a fantastic episode. Thank you for shouting truth and common sense into a mad fucking world

Duncan

President Xi, first among equals, we are ready for glorious revolution.

Pelicans are my favorite dinosaur

So no one corrected Rhi? The app went dark the evening of the -8th and came back the morning of the 19th,a full day before Trump was inaugurated. I'm not saying that to be pedantic, just pointing out that it was SUPPOSED to go dark on the 19th but did so on the 18th instead. Sneaky. I would have puked on that girl praising Trump. I also hate they the word "trump" is automatically capitalized now

Rachel Raspberry

How can they get away with such intellectual laziness. It’s infuriating and this episode so perfectly calls them out and yet this will do absolutely nothing. They will continue to do whatever they want with impunity. It’s infuriating.

Rene Armida

Knowing full well it's a straw man argument, do you think the Dem leadership signed on to the Tiktok ban for fear of appearing "weak on China" otherwise?

Gretchen Sprinkle

Thank you for being loud and plain about the truth, as always.

James Baxter

I agree, they really needed to engage with the material of the case. We can compare this to a TV network who can decide which shows get broadcast to individual houses, if every house was a Nielson Survey. It's not just free speech. There is something else here. There are well established techniques in all social media companies for measuring and effecting change in behaviour. I don't think regulations should be specific to Chinese companies, this is an issue that all private companies exploit in frightening ways, but it still needs regulation. It would have been nice to see them engage meaningfully with this.

Jonathan Steven

Not part of the thesis, but "Just take me out with the cattle gun from No Country for Old Men" belongs on merch

Mountain Dew Or Crab Juice

There are classified weapons platform leaks on the WarThunder forums once a week, but TikTok is definitely the real security threat.

Jocelyn Hughes

Very much doubt a single one of those judges have ever used tiktok.

Amie

Michael, I am the mom to 3 teenage girls and it’s killing me that you must have heard the teen girl/mom/tik tok conversation in an ABQ Costco. I can assure you none of my kids or their friends are thanking Papa Trump for Tik Tok restoration. They are smarter than most adults I know and willing to fight. Just had to defend the NM youths, they are all right!

Amie
>>162754059

OMG I was up there earlier in January (4 months ago) and everything my friends post is blocked 💀 that was wild

Robin Lehman

I took a sip of coffee just as the tic tac toe quote came on, I almost did a spit take 😂

Violence Zack
>>162789152

I also don't think it's a coincidence that he chose to have the ban go into effect in January of 2025. I think he intended to hold the app hostage the same way he held covid relief funds hostage.

Violence Zack

I disagree with Michael's take on Tik Tok making the kids dumber. Feels like "tv will rot your brain" rhetoric. The algorithm can be useful if you search for useful things. People googling project 2025 immediately after the election shows how much people are hiding their heads in the sand because they're scared of mommy and daddy fighting. People are choosing to be willfully ignorant of politics and to a large extent I don't blame them. But our political illiteracy just made everything more stressful and complicated than if we educated ourselves on our candidates. That being said, fox news is considered a "legitimate" source of news and I trust Tik Tok to be less censored and sane-washed than any major news outlet. It's not just on the yoots today to be not dumb. Elon proves our whole media ecosystem is contaminated by fascist apologists.

Janusz Ostrycharz
>>163000056

IANAJ (as far as believing/verifying anything/everything i read on the intertubes), but the directly relevant 'Erin [Reed] in the Morning' Substack chat contained testimony (backed up by Erin) that TT has/had exceptional value as a community-building device for trans folks as well. Like any tool/tech (or magic, for us high-fantasy nerds), it depends what is done with it. So as far as that goes, I would agree with any hypothetical Michaels saying it HAS BEEN USED to make the kids dumber ... But that's far from the whole story. And hey, what are regulatory agencies for anyway? ... Wait, do we still have any? I just got off work...

Janusz Ostrycharz
>>162741132

Indirect response... I have a feeling more takes like C.P. Pierce's 2009 *Idiot America* are due for rehash/ resurgence. Brian Klaas just did a piece on 'the democratization of information production' ironically ruining democracy. This could be heading for a super-creepy tension between something like the EFF and neoRx edgelords like Yarvin.

Addison
>>163000056

I used to get annoyed at people saying this about TikTok too, but I do think the way the algorithm further silos you into your political bubble + its specific addictiveness is messing with our brains (def a problem with all socials but TikTok was particularly bad for my ADHD haha). I personally was pretty mentally unwell because of the political content I was drowning in on TikTok post-election. Got off of social media overall for a few weeks (and now limit myself a lot) and literally felt like I was re-entering reality. Getting back on social media after the break I was immediately struck by how overwhelming it all is—our brains did not evolve to see so much movement/color/ads OR know every detail of every horrible political or climate event as it happens. I’m not checking out of politics by any means because I think that’s irresponsible, but people spending hours on their phones consuming information that’s specifically aligned with the beliefs they already hold is putting us in a very weird place of 1) extreme polarization, 2) only seeing people we agree with online so being unaware of differences in the real world (hence the shock at Kamala’s loss for a lot of people), and 3) inaction in our own communities because consuming and posting feels like doing something to our brains. I loved TikTok because I learned SO much about political and non-political things! But the short-form information + constant scrolling is absolutely not good for us. You’re totally right about our existing media ecosystems not being any better, and I do think social media has the benefit of making primary source material available to the masses. From a biological/anthropological standpoint I just don’t see it as a healthy/sustainable/meaningful method for making us smarter or more politically engaged, and I DO think it’s making us a little dumber. Only seeing information/arguments framed in ways the algorithm knows will be appealing to you is eroding empathy and willingness to be wrong/learn + it’s absolutely fucking up our attention spans in real life.

Addison
>>163000056

Just to clarify I don’t think that means it should’ve been banned! But I think we need to take a serious look at how much stock/faith we’re putting into the usefulness and goodness of social media

Addison
>>162751149

I think it also lines up with when they prob started strategizing their all-in approach on AI too and knew that people would NOT react well to his lizard ass saying instagram influencers/content will be primarily AI-generated in the future

brennabean
>>162751149

The gossip will find you as it needs to, but if u wanna dish I’m available

Addison
>>163000056

Totally hear the organization point, but ultimately it’s not sustainable and is potentially dangerous for this kind of necessary organizing to be dependent on these for-profit platforms that are controlled by egotistical maniacs

a l j
>>162748999

I am having the same issue! I use pocket casts, but I double checked with another podcast app, and in both only one episode shows up. I've also checked with a different patreon feed and that doesn't seem to have the same problem, so I think it's a 5-4 specific issue

Violence Zack
>>163000056

I hear ya. Social media is toxic and it should be more regulated. We definitely push stuff through without considering the consequences (i.e. AI being proposed as a way to eliminate jobs without considering how that affects the economy). It just bugs me when people complain about Tik Tok stealing info or diseminating misinformation because every other platform steals our data and no one cares. And the media is causing problems by refusing to talk about progressive issues while trying to make fascism sound normal and patriotic. Just feels like it's a symptom more than it's a cause.

Isabelle Reynolds

"we should be able to say cunt at the workplace" - michael, at his workplace

David J
>>162767271

Exactly right, it was a stunt by the TikTok leadership to deliberately self-sabotage before the actual deadline to build the pressure on Trump et al.

David J

I'm surprised that our heroes admitted to not understanding the national security implications of TikTok's unregulated presence in American life. They are (1) expose the US population to an addictive platform governed by a habit-inducing algorithm which can be quietly modified to show end users content that will persuade them to believe CCP opinions (Taiwan part of China, no human rights issues in Xinjiang etc., Hamas is in the right) if the CCP wants them to (2) encourage the generation of addictive but meaningless content to fill the brain space of potentially *half the US population* which could otherwise be used in productive ways This is not to mention the potential influence on other events e.g. US elections. I hear you say: "what about Meta's products? X?" But those are US-owned and operated and subject to US laws (I admit - this is tenuous given the current administration, but this law was passed during the previous one). TikTok is a platform run by a company which by PRC law is beholden to CCP influence - a foreign adversary of the United States whose explicit goals are to reduce US influence in the world. The goals of the United Front Work Department, a part of the Chinese government, are exactly this: to manipulate populations of foreign countries to align their thinking to that of the CCP. I don't know about you, but that meets the definition of a national security issue for me.