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Poll

New Cyberpunk Poll #2

  • I like a little "magic" with my cyberpunk. 276
  • I'm not thrilled about "magic" in my cyberpunk, but I'll still read it. 104
  • I don't like "magic" in my cyberpunk, and I won't read it. 9
  • 2024-09-15
  • 389 votes
{'title': 'New Cyberpunk Poll #2', 'choices': [{'text': 'I like a little "magic" with my cyberpunk.', 'votes': 276}, {'text': 'I\'m not thrilled about "magic" in my cyberpunk, but I\'ll still read it.', 'votes': 104}, {'text': 'I don\'t like "magic" in my cyberpunk, and I won\'t read it.', 'votes': 9}], 'closes_at': None, 'created_at': datetime.datetime(2024, 9, 15, 18, 12, 40, tzinfo=datetime.timezone.utc), 'description': None, 'allow_multiple': False, 'total_votes': 389}

Content

Hi, everyone! I loved watching the responses to the 1st poll roll in. It's so heartening to get so much feedback and to hear that many of you are eager to try whatever I'm excited to write. I'll say this: it does make a difference for an author to be writing what they want to write. Chapters really fly out of my fingers when I'm having fun! :)

That said, I did a lot of thinking while I watched the poll and read the comments, and I think I'm going to alter my plans just a little: I'll start the story with one "main" MC whose POV is represented about 5:1 compared to the "secondary" MC. I say I'll start that way because I'm hoping that people are going to grow to love both MCs and that, eventually, it'll move closer to a 2:1 or even 1:1 ratio. Definitely not a requirement for me to have fun, though, so if people aren't clamoring for more from MC #2, then I'll probably avoid forcing the issue.

Now, on to Poll #2:

Over the last month or so, I've done a lot of brainstorming, and one thing that I've come to realize is that there are a lot of little things I want to change about the setting that would make it a total ret-con of way too many aspects of Cyber Dreams. That said, I think I'm going to write Neon Dust in a new cyberpunk setting. It'll have some similarities, but certain key differences will be in place:

"The AI War" is still part of the setting's history, but it was resolved differently.

Humanity is only just beginning to expand into the Sol System.

There will be a bigger divide between the working poor and corpo-elite.

"local nets" are a much bigger thing - satellite coverage, instant access to wide-area networks, and connections to knowledge bases will be expensive, rare, and only available to people and corps with the right connections.

Corpo-sec is just that - corporate security. If a criminal is doing something that doesn't impact Company A's bottom line, the corpo-sec for Company A isn't going to intervene. Local police might exist, but they're going to be horrifically underfunded, likely relying on donations or a tiny sliver of the jurisdiction's tax base. This ties into the greater divide between poor and corpo-elite; the people living outside the megastructures will be largely left to fend for themselves as they try to live in the shadows of the all-powerful megacorps. That goes for the small-time corps, too. Not every corp can afford a security force.

I could probably make bullet points all day. The punchline is that I want to really refine my cyberpunk aesthetic, and I want to do it without impacting what's already set in stone in my Cyber Dreams universe.

So what's this poll about?

I've had a really fun time brainstorming how to make this story more "progression" and hopefully catch the interest of a lot more readers. I came up with an idea (which I'm sure isn't original) that would add some lore for a certain kind of energy source that could be utilized by people. More importantly, there are grades of energy purity for the source and grades of equipment to gather, store, and use it, meaning that if someone were able to "rank up," all sorts of new options for tech would open up for them.

One of the cool ideas I have involves what happens to people who don't have a certain piece of tech that lets them "handle" the energy - think mutations of all sorts (usually bad, but sometimes positive.) I'm being purposefully vague here, but I have some pretty fleshed-out ideas that I think will make for a fun blend of cyberpunk and progression fantasy. I have a fun idea about the source of the energy (it has to do with the AI war), and I have a fun idea for how it will impact the story I want to tell, but I also know that many of my readers are more cyberpunk purists - I just don't know how many, hence today's poll.

Now, a few caveats:

I think Cyber Dreams was successful because of the characters. I know the plots were fun, with lots of tension, etc., but I think the characters are what made it special. Neon Dust will be character-focused.

Neon Dust will move slower, with local stakes and meaningful dialogue, yet there will be a bigger background motivation for both of the MCs.

Whether we go with a kind of "supernatural" element or not, the story isn't going to change much. It'll just be a fun way to gauge the strength of augments and individuals and maybe make my life easier when I explain why So-and-so isn't to be messed with.

So, here's the poll question: Do you want any "supernatural" or "mysterious energy tech" element in your cyberpunk?

If you feel passionately about this, please comment!

EDIT: I'm gonna work on a sample to give people an idea of what I mean. Look for it in the next day or two. :)

Comments

Parably

“Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.” Bring on the voodoo!

IndyBart

Just call it Shadowrun and bring in the meta’s while you’re at it. :)

Mr. J

Where is the option for a lot of magic?

STLMHARTS

Bring it on let's get started already! I hate waiting!

Shawn

Not sure I will read neon dust beyond the first book since I don't really like multiple POVs and I'm not super interested in cyberpunk but I think a heavier ratio to one character in the beginning would just end up being unpleasant later when you start to even things out. I think you should rip the bandaid off and go even ratio from the start.

Snowcrash007

I think "magic" due to advanced tech and/or human potential unlock similar to psychic (Looper) or Bene Gesserit kind of fits into cyberpunk. "High magic" like D&D mages or mana battle mages I'm personally not crazy about -- the one thing I found difficult with the older shadowrun novels was it was really hard to excel in the cyberpunk tech elements when authors spend half the time talking about magic

Alley

It doesn't matter really, but LunaWolve is currently writing a cyberpunk LitRPG called Neon Dragons.

evan maples

When you say “supernatural “ are we talking cosmic horror from beyond the stars and mc has access to some kind of eldrich technology or ooky spooky ghosts supernatural?

Andrew Farnsworth

My thoughts exactly. I have run across a few "fantasy progression" storylines that turned closer to sci-fi when it's explained that nanites are making all the changes to people. If it's a good story with character's you've grown fond of, does it really matter where the mojo comes from? I think not so much.

Svarog

So I responded "no magic but still will read it", but the answer is bit more nuanced for me so I will elaborate. First of all I like magic. It is fun, exiting and allows the imagination to fly. "What would I do if I had these powers". The issue that I have encountered in many stories that are not full fantasy (and in many fantasy stories as well) is that magic is often used to be a "cheat". An easy option to explain things away, when author doesn't want to fully commit to the rules of the setting that they have themselves established. "Well, the protagonist is supernaturally gifted with the "force", so if pushed really hard they can still do X, even if it is impossible/near impossible." Now, it happens in fantasy stories too, sure. Plot armor and whatnot. But what I personally like about cyberpunk is that it is usually nearish future. The suspension of disbelief is not nearly as "deep" as with traditional fantasy. I can totally buy that corporations are going to use their resources to grab more and more power. I can totally buy that politicians influenced by money will let corruption and crime slide. Whether it is technological development, social unrest, or even exploration of near universe, all these things are close enough to present that, I, as reader, get how we got there and can fill the gaps that author doesn't mentioned with my own reasoning. When we throw magic into the mix it becomes very easy to break these logical ties and compromise the internal consistency of the story for some "easy" narrative drama/resolution. Now, you are truly a good writer. I trust that whatever you write is still going to be fun and engaging. But I can't help but have some smidgen of concerns. As far as I am concerned Angel was already pretty magical, so I can't say with 100% confidence that throwing actual magic into the mix will not detract from the cyberpunk aspect of the narrative. It will still be great story, no doubt about that, but not quite as "cyber" as I am personally hoping. Hope this made at least some sense. Thanks for everything and can't wait to read your next story!

Plum Parrot

You're not alone. I think, if I time them right, a secondary POV here and there will be okay. The more I think about it, the more I like it, tbh. I think a 1:1 will be way too frequent swapping. 5:1 for a good long while or, potentially, always, will be fine.

Plum Parrot

Yes, we're not talking spells and stuff. It's more tech-based.

Plum Parrot

Ah, interesting! Didn't know that ;) There's actually a ton of "neon" stories on RR (I just did a search, lol)

Plum Parrot

Nah, more like if you want to run that Ryzo Tech power gauntlet, you're going to need more XXXX, a tier-2 XXXX Core, and a tier-3 XXXX matrix. (XXXX stands for my super secret story element)

Beau Bryant

Just please don't add too much handwavium. I like my sci-fi more hard than soft.

evan maples

Ah so like technology so advanced you think its magic kind of thing

Beau Bryant

As mentioned before, you can use Shadowrun as an example of a decently thought out fantasy cyberpunk mashup (1st-3rd edition). Additionally, the rpg setting "Transhuman Space" and it's supplement "Shattered Dreams" may be of interest.

SteveC

I'm struggling to answer the poll question because I am not really sure what you mean by supernatural... Let me clarify with two examples: Type 1: Are we talking "sufficiently advanced technology... indistinguishable from magic", that is "someone/something" might understand how it works, but it certainly isn't the common people and might be no-one human. Type 2: Or are we talking something that leans more into the fantastic, more like the "there are mysteries in the world that even science can't understand or explain. Stop thinking and just trust your feelings!" Defining it in this way, I personally prefer type 1 to because the implication is that _there_are_rules_ that are broadly based on the science we know and that the "magic" is some kind of emergent behavior that is based on the same rules. In type 2, the new "magic" doesn't have the same requirements, and that leads to a different kind of storytelling. I don't hate it, but to me it isn't science fiction any more, it is science fantasy (and as an aside, IMHO a lot of stories that are sold as science fiction actually fall into this category!).

Plum Parrot

It's explainable in-lore, and will have boundaries and certain rarity that will keep regular science relevant, but there will be things that appear magical (the sufficiently advanced tech quote fits here)

Reno

Well.. I have no opinion on magic. Because sci fi is still kinda like magic most of the time. But I've never seen a system/magic integration event on top of an already well developed futuristic cyber world. How would an advanced society react to magic bypassing centuries of scientific and engineering progress. The class struggle is a bit difficult for me to relate to, and I think I enjoyed CD a lot more because it didn't focus on class struggles much. It's more of a curiosity for me and doesn't really strike a chord. We'll see how I feel about the capitalistic struggles of the poor when Plum's magic dust touches it. 😄 The gippel (?) badassery was the icing on the CD cake. It turned the setting around and put a great personal challenge and opportunity in front of the protagonist, and its potential for awesomeness never faltered. Awesomeness sells, I think. And I totally bought into the awesomeness of CD. Whereas the awesomeness in VoT is coloured with a great deal of thoughtful exploration. I won't ever forget the hive queen for instance. It was the best iteration of the concept I've ever seen, brief as it was. So that's why it's hard for me to say what I want to read. "Surprise me." I don't think I'll vote on this particular poll because all options have potential.

Tyler MachadoDarth Bane

If you are going to do a multiple POV, the Ice and Fire books did it right. Each chapters title is the characters name so I'm not spending the first few sentences going who is this, I can say oh it's Arya and she was doing this.

Reno

Okay there is one big big thing that's usually important for me. Not always though. I don't want to read doom and gloom. Not unless it changes the way I think, or shows me things I've never seen before. Life's too short to be gloomy. It's kinda why I rarely bought into the mainstream zombie, Catholic and vampire media. So much gloom. There was one vampire setting I liked in Azarinth Healer, but it was minor. I think they were all super optimistic and pacifist immortals who valued everyone's freedom. I forgot. It was a bit bizarre. But bizarre is good if it makes sense.

Reno

I feel that if I had an objection to most cyberpunk it's the uniformity of the culture. At least as far as I've seen. Many of my favourite stories had a "big world" aspect to them that allowed the authors to avoid globalisation. Finding strange and exotic cultures has an appeal, and that's not so common when everything is interconnected. Juliet's different identities were a big plus in the regard. Different worlds with different rules. Not as much as Victor and other stories. But it still had an appeal. Not necessarily because of the whole incognito roleplay aspect, but because it felt like Juliet journeyed between different 'worlds' whenever she changed her persona.

Reno

Also, different worlds with different moods.

SteveC

I was thinking the same thing!

Horty

So world building like Changeling (by Mecanimus, amazing btw), but with more Cyberpunk and less magic?

Ryan Linus

Can the third cyberpunk poll be if you should forget about this and resume FWFW instead?

hd

Cyberpunk is almost always just magic with extra steps anyway.

RonGAR

I both love and hate the fact that you want to add some 'magic'. This mix of cyberpunk and magic has been done before like you said. "MistRunner" by Nicholas.R.Searcy is a fantastic example. But I have reservations. I know you want to add it in, but the fact that you said a "little'' magic gives me pause. It reminds me too much of my mounting frustrations with the lattice and how under used it was. And that was only 'a little' extra ability for the MC. Its was practically ignored for over 50 chapters after it was introduced. Then when you wanted to use it, you treated it like a redheaded stepchild or a Newborn baby girl in China LOL. Like it was this big 'ICKY' thing, that was to be locked up tightly and never used until absolutely necessary. You pulled out every reason not to use it that you can find or think of. You blamed it on Morality, Friendship, personal preference, or lack of training with it, then when she did train with it, she 'hated' the feel of it., damn near to the point where you didn't want to use it on any day that ends in "Y".. etc, etc, etc, the list goes on! So my fear is Can you be trusted to make this addition and do right by it. Or is it something that will be brought in to this universe, but only heard about every 30 to 50 chapters, like the Lattice was? Because if THATS the case, I beg you, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE don't bother!

RonGAR

Read "Mistrunner by Nicholas R Searcy, you'll see a perfect example or template of how cyberpunk and magic can be incorporated effortlessly. Because in that book, one is the other. The Cyberware is the Magic and the system it relies on. Like the lattice was "supposed'' to be the cyberware and the ability/magic in one. Butttt that was IGNORED soo we never really got too deep into the Gipel.

Kahandran

I feel like you CAN get varied culture in cyberpunk without ever leaving a single region. It's all in how the different groups of people are represented. You can have gang bangers, samurai, tech heads, corpos, office drones, rebels, nomads, heck even "sewer people" and so on... each with highly individualized subcultures to the point that social diffusion through the culture is practically unheard of. The cities can get so big in this genre, I think it's a lot of fun to really explore that aspect

RonGAR

Azarinth Healer was a GREAT story. I loved it as well.

Kahandran

Love the ideas, especially with the updated take on corpo-sec for this world. I need my grimy underbelly of society!! That's where cyberpunk comes alive >:) As for the progression element, I'm SO for it. I'm glad you said you are planning for slower progression, as I assume you've realized that with 'only' Earth to play around in, it can't get too crazy (or we get xianxia cultivators blowing up the planet on day 3). For the poll... idk, I'm a little torn. I voted the 2nd option and I'll say why. Magic often just feels a little "tacked on." I love sci-fi that gets deep into exploring an aspect or two of science. I also love fantasy that gets deep into exploring its specific magic system. When some magic is thrown into an established scientific world, I tend to want a deep explanation, or some twinning of science and magic (think "oh magic has ALWAYS been a part of the universe and this is how technology and society has evolved to cope"). That can actually be really interesting and fun if done well. But when magic is just thrown in for fun in an otherwise classical sci-fi setting, I experience some narrative suspension of disbelief. And as much as I love Cyber Dreams, that was something that always stuck in my graw a bit. At times it felt like Juliet was "too much" of an exception to the norm, though the powers were pretty fun and interesting to watch her learn, and they followed some hard rules which helped to balance things.

jackalsclaw

Just don't use magic as a get out of painting yourself into a corner to much. Besides that I submit the name for the element: Psittacium

Plum Parrot

Not planning any "game-breaking" stuff :) I think the easiest thing I can do is write a sample for everyone to see what I mean. I think I'll work on that tonight 'cause I'm feeling it. Cheers, Ron.

Kahandran

I didn't hate the lattice THAT much, but what I'm hearing is we just want a decent amount of depth if something like that is going to be added. Readers of progression fics tend to be the "power gamer" types. So if there's gonna be magic, the MC better milk it for all it's worth lol

David H

I would like to add that I was originally attracted to VoT because of the LitRPG elements. From there I branched to your other stories and came to like CD the best. I hadn't read any cyberpunk before and it had just enough litRPG in it to satisfy me. So I will read your new story but I will enjoy it immensely so long as there is some sort of character or power advancement tracking mechanism in it. I like Vainglory better now than I did because you have added that in, from being just a feeling the MC has to an actual matrix we can view.

Reno

Sadly, Azarinth Healer is a sore topic for me. Loved the world building. But it left a bitter taste in my mouth with the way the final clash was sprung up on the characters. Had that been handled well, I'd have sung praises for it everywhere. Now I just can't bring myself to recommend it. The story could have been amazing, but I just feel disappointment that it stumbled before the finish line in such a preventable way. (AH Spoiler ahead) The entire final stretch I kept thinking the obvious ploy wasn't going to happen, that it couldn't happen, because the smartest minds in the story didn't bring it up as a possibility. Imagine my disappointment when the obvious ploy is exactly what happened, and everybody is surprised. "No way he did THAT". 🫠 Well that's exactly what almost anybody would do if they were described as exceedingly cautious and patient.

mindcloud

You had talked about having nowhere to go with Cyberdreams. But in light of what you wrote here. I wonder if maybe you could have a "Breaking" of sorts. What if say the dark matter engines ended up breaking something in reality and the laws of other dimensions started seeping through. That gives you alternate realities and magic to work with and could reset progression to a large extent. Purely tech based solutions no longer work as well without a lot of modifications. You could give Juliet an advantage based on her bio tech. But then what happens with AIs. Do they suddenly get limited in some way and manifest as spirits and eventually corporeal beings?

Brooks Brady

I love the idea of mysterious energy tech. Kind of like Will wights Horizon series.

Fortunis

Mindcloud beat me to it. Dark Matter and Dark Energy make up a ridiculous amount of our universe and we have no idea what it does or how it works. It might as well be Mana. But it'd be a logical science based Energy Source plausible for all kinds of things. That said it's also entirely possible to make up an energy source and call it Unobtanium 2.0 or some shit. For me the most interesting thing about Cyberpunk settings is the technology. It's what drew me to the original story. I stayed for the mc and her awesome AI sister but the tech was the biggest draw for me.

A Avery P.

lol.. my bad just now. feedback on another cyberpunk novel by mistake - have deleted it and appended my input here. Magic in a pure cyberpunk novel needs to be added slowly, else it'll break the novel. The current supernatural ability seems to be psychic or psionics instead, such abilities can be buffed by cybertech. Since whatever improves the organic can have an impact on psychic/psionic abilities. This should be explored and expanded to eventually mana based powers, since Mana would require a different sensory ability (advanced psionics?) to detect and manipulate.

TheBotler

I am currently reading another cyberpunk with high fantasy/portal elements, I of course am down for this 100%

SteveC

A really good example of a novel that leans into type 1 while having an "unexplainable" element to it is "The Practise Effect" by David Brin.

Robin

Magic imho in all cases but within a Cyberpunk setting especially should be governed by rules. Those rules should slowly be revealed but they should have an internal consistency, and it would make sense if that would extend to the more mechanical upgrades. I for instance like the Magic in the laundry files for example since any complex Magic puts the caster in danger even thinking about Magic would. Downsides and limits are nice things in general. I really dislike the infinite power ramp in some stories, and the now Magic can suddenly do this previously thought impossible thing as well, with no explanation is almost as bad as the reverse the polarity tech babble in some sci-fi.

Random Guy

"Magic is just Technologie we dont understand" as long as you make sure the reader knows its not magic but truly advanced AI Tech which only the most intelligent understand i dont think you will have many problems even with the "purists"

phillip page

Hmmm, I think the elements of magic in cyber dreams were just about right for cyberpunk. Strange and experimental technology fueled by unchained rnd, or relics from the war. If I was going to be overly clever I'd say you could have a greater class devide just by moving the story to another region, one with a different "official history "

Abbie

*points to comment; couldn’t have said it better myself. Only thing I can add to it is “ There are things known and there are things unknown, and in between are the doors of perception.”

wanderer117

You don't need magic or mana for progression, you need numbers going up. Cyber Dreams was only light progression since many of Juliet's core listed stats were both static and started high, like her Neural adaptiveness or Synaptic Responsiveness. If she could train those stats, or improve them with gene therapy etc you've got progression. Improving her cyberware was fine and her SOA rating/card helped but neither felt like abject reality rather than the perception of others. Victor has stats that go up, skills with ranks and a ranked core with affinities. Lots of numbers all going up at different rates from Victor doing different things.

Ben Morgan

Shadowrun's my favorite cyberpunk setting, so magic away as much as you'd like!

Steven

I have to admit I'm not a huge fan of "magic" in my cyberpunk (more of a tech purist here lol) but if done well it can still be really good. I love the way tower of somnus did it. I definitely agree the characters were the best part of CD but don't undersell your world building either!

jackalsclaw

Just was thinking about where to draw the line between magic and hard sicfi and I have to say, I think it's the laws of Thermodynamics. Please don't break them with entropy negative reaction or matter just be created/destroyed

Dash of Salt

I feel like where the previous story lost me a bit was with the mind reading, I was really enjoying the story, and still stayed on for a while after that, but the character was already a bit OP, and telepathy just felt like a hat on a hat. Edit: That being said, if there's a bit of magic here or there, that could be fun, but it should be worked into the setting, not something exclusive to one or both of the MCs

Arlen

I would love a little magic, especially if it comes with orcs, dwarves, trolls and such things.

Arlen

I always loved the concept of shadowrun, even if their implementation always fell flat, since they really didn't do much with all the different races quality's and drawbacks. (Like elves being long lived and thus have ng plenty opportunity to get higher education, while it wouldn't make any sense at all to give short lived orcs any education).Nevermind that they always just slapped magic on without ever giving it she me considerations how it would shape society.

marcus

This ties in to good stories, they are able to have a grounded feeling. Were there are costs and drawbacks, for power whether power source limitations or moral/character drawbacks suck as addictions or withdrawals being a possibility.

TheDudeAbides

Your tier 2 description says that it comes with 15 chapters of all your in progress stories, does that not include neon dust?

Plum Parrot

I wasn't really considering this officially "in progress," but now I have 15 chapters I guess I can't deny the facts. I'll open them all to tier 2, and then ongoing 16+ will be for tier 3. Thanks, Dude.