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Gravity's Rainbow Lecture: In the Zone (Part Three) (Patreon)

Published:
2023-12-20 21:27:27
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2026-06
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Content

Today we are discussing the third part of Gravity's Rainbow. And we're talking about difficulty, meaning, mysticism, anti-paranoia, the chaotic age, cycles of history, dreams, simulation theory, the collective unconscious, experimental narratives, and much more.

Timestamps:

  • 0:00 Gravity’s Rainbow as V2/A4 rocket
  • 2:00 when Slothrop begins to scatter
  • 3:00 conventional vs experimental novels
  • 4:00 my top three most difficult books
  • 5:00 on part three of Gravity’s Rainbow
  • 6:00 on needing to crowdsource meaning
  • 7:00 Kabbalah, gravity & spiritual wisdom
  • 9:00 questing towards centres of meaning
  • 10:00 Slothrop as person, character, idea
  • 12:00 when a generation feels sold out
  • 14:00 chilling comments on conditioning
  • 15:00 from paranoia to anti-paranoia
  • 17:00 cycles of history & meaning
  • 18:00 secular worship in the chaotic age
  • 19:00 rationale for the revolting scenes
  • 21:00 when do conflicts begin & end?
  • 23:00 circularity of the hero’s journey
  • 24:00 the parable of the parabola
  • 25:00 eternal return in Kekulé’s dream
  • 27:00 who sends our dreams to us?
  • 29:00 novel as collective unconsciousness
  • 31:00 meaning below conscious level
  • 32:00 Pynchon’s exploration of preterition
  • 35:00 Slothrop travels into the Zone
  • 36:00 ‘you retrace the rocket’s becoming’
  • 37:00 catching the monitoring of thoughts
  • 38:00 a comment on this bizarre discussion
  • 40:00 anxiety of becoming machine men
  • 43:00 split within the Schwarzkommando
  • 45:00 on Enzian and Tchitcherine
  • 46:00 is reality really just a simulation?
  • 49:00 cameras, lenses & film techniques
  • 50:00 reality replaced by symbols & signs
  • 52:00 film, propaganda, conditioning & war
  • 54:00 representation, substance & shadow
  • 56:00 personal identity & impersonal salvation
  • 57:00 Tyrone Slothrop begins to scatter
  • 58:00 moving into the novel’s final part
  • 59:00 what are you making of the novel?

Reading Assignment:

You are doing an incredible job forging on valiantly with this intensely challenging work. The climax of the novel is in sight. Our next discussion will focus on part four, which takes us up to page 902 in the Vintage paperback and through to the end of the novel.

Questions to Consider:

1) Do you prefer conventional or experimental novels?

2) How would you explain this work to someone who hasn't read it?

3) What idea has personally resonated with you most from your reading?

And please do share with us your insights and favourite passage from the third part of this novel.

Happy reading, everybody!

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Comments

Daniel Minton

Ughh, I am 200 pages behind, part three is long. Hahah. Making my way through though. Lots to like and lots to scratch your head at. I feel like it is mental weightlifting. I sped through TOTC because it felt so approachable. I am going to be proud to have finished this, there are parts that will always stick with me but once will probably be enough. I'm looking forward to listening to this lecture, I need to clock some pages though. Happy Holidays everyone. 😊

Towhee

While forging ahead, I still have about 120-130 or so pages to go before this lecture. I'm enjoying the read - much is a mystery, but it seems things are circling back and making more connections (I was going to say "sense", but connections is probably the better word!) ;) Looking forward to Ben's insights on this section. Hopefully, I'll finish this section in the next week or sooner. Happy Holidays!

Misha

Also with about 200 pages still to go so will keep this lecture until then! As I just commented on the prior GR thread, however, the Franz Pökler section - my goodness. I’m destroyed. Some of the most beautiful and gut-wrenching writing I’ve ever encountered. A tiny book of heartbreak all on its own. It will stay with me for a while. More to come as I plow ahead. Happy holidays, all!

hardcoreliterature
>>125002076

You’re doing a great job, Daniel! Part three is an absolute beast to get through. Mental weightlifting is seriously the perfect way to describe it. And very happy holidays to you too! ☺️

hardcoreliterature
>>125002755

You’re forging on beautifully! I’m so happy that you’re enjoying the reading experience. You’re so right that there’s an incredible amount of circling back within Gravity’s Rainbow! Very happy holidays to you too :)

hardcoreliterature
>>125003384

That’s amazing, Misha! You’ve totally got this! And my goodness you’re right about the Franz Pökler section. Some of the most agonising prose I’ve encountered.. Wishing you a very happy holidays too! ☺️

Tatiana

Ben, the best lecture on for me the best book of the year. Vico, Baudrillard, you always bring something exciting to the table. I have been reading slowly, gone off on tangents with secondary material on ecocriticism and Pynchon's politics. I have two posts, one on the scatology, that I will make tomorrow during a 3 hour wait at the airport in Toronto. (Going to Quebec. And while there to a librairie to pick up Moliere and Montaigne.) Meanwhile I want to say you have really outdone yourself these past two months, I hope you take a nice break and have a very happy Christmas.

Jonathon Glover

I have just finished up section 2 and added some comments in the last lecture if anyone wants to have a chat with the stragglers 😂 See you guys in about a month 👍

hardcoreliterature
>>125007749

Aw, thank you so much, Tatiana. That’s so lovely of you. You’ve absolutely made my day. And I’m so happy that Gravity’s Rainbow is your book of the year! I’m incredibly excited to read your posts. Have a safe journey to beautiful Quebec! I considered it my home for a little while and miss it dearly! I hope you have a wonderful Christmas too ☺️

Marilyn Rumph

There is much of this book that I just cannot like and much of this part 3 that I had great difficulty reading. Needles and drug use for one. Maybe I’ll make it back to this book but as I am 70 yrs old, it is doubtful. But I know enough about this book especially with your lectures to be satisfied with its completion.

Jen Clair

I think this is my book of the year. I’ve been so obsessed with it— hating it, loving it. It’s haunting, gut wrenching— hard to explain to people…. I almost didn’t read it. I’m so glad I did.

Alan

“A little bit zany” had to stop in my tracks listening to lecture to award Benjamin the understatement award 🥴

El Forguson

The book for me is like it started as a dream like effect and this 2nd part is more like a nightmare where I got lost in the middle asking myself am I still dreaming? But as I battled through it, it became connected, piece by piece. I hope that the 3rd part is the reality of it all. Maybe waking up from a very bizarre dream. But I have to give it to Pynchon, his post modern style of storytelling, dream in the dream. Thanks Ben for a fantastic lecture. What a great respite for this crazy holiday season. Happy Holidays to all!

Tim Trippel

One line that stood out for me: "... the gift of Daedalus that allowed him to put as much labyrinth as required between himself and the inconvenience of caring. " (p 435 in Penguin) And I thought I think Pynchon may have this gift or be striving after it in this labyrinthine book. Anyway, Thank you Benjamin for finding at least a few threads to help us navigate the maze through this lecture series. I have to admit that I do prefer conventional literature to experimental novels although it is good to get out of my comfort zone occasionally and I have found portions of this book quite rewarding even though it is definitely not something that I can say I have enjoyed overall.

Miri Kim

On p.540 (Vintage) it‘s said: „it‘s a linguistic wilderness here, and he‘s afraid.“ I must say that experimental novels like this make me appreciate the benefit of communal reading and eye-opening lectures far more than reading everybodys‘ favorite together! So thank you, Ben, for being experimental! This twisted novel has a somewhat disturbing but magnetic effect one me. For sure it is highly memorable and I feel like floating in a gravity-free space! Lots of rest and happy holidays, all!

Colin ellesmere

Anyone struggling with GR I recommend John David Eberts commentary. This link is part 20 of his analysis of GR and includes the Anubis section which is packed with mythological references. I picked up his lectures from the start of book 2 and its really helped uncover layers I was missing. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LYbiyQZtB6o

Scott W

I have this nice lecture to look forward to.. I’ve just been reading Tchitcherine’s back story and about the Herero. I am enjoying GR. I like a challenge. I love how HLBC has given me the tools and confidence I need to read and enjoy books like Don Quixote, Moby Dick, Ulysses, and now GR. I know if I read 10 pages a day, I can still read everything I else I need and want to.. and complete this one, so that’s what I’m doing. Happy holidays to everyone, and a very Happy Christmas to those who celebrate it!

Scott W
>>125035256

I find myself waiting to get back to characters earlier in the story.. Pointsman and Katje in particular. And surely Prentice has more? And Roger and Jessica.. it wasn’t like that in V. - that’s a less defined, characterful read.

Tatiana

Guys, if you want to dig deep I totally recommend Thomas Pynchon and the Counterculture and Thomas Pynchon & The Dark Passages of HIstory. These cover his whole oeuvre but you can pick out the GR chapters. It is all of a piece. This is a good place to note that Millennials and Zoomers are digging it, Boomers are freaking out. Because I suspect Boomers here are on the cushy side of the equation, were not part of the counterculture. Whereas people under 40 have skin in the game and all the issues Pynchon raises are exactly what is still going on, only worse. I do not think you can find a more contemporary novel. Interestingly the three (in my opinion) most profound writers of the 2nd half of the 20th century (not counting Toni Morrison) - Thomas Pynchon, Cormac McCarthy and Gerald Murnane were all born in the 30s, The Silent Generation, Pluto in Cancer, deep sensitivity. I am hoping for one last book from Pynchon, like McCarthy's final masterpiece The Passenger/Stella Maris, but he may be too busy sticking pins in a voodoo doll.

Hazel Sun

So glad I’m not alone! Have another 150 pages to read in this section; will be back to comment once I’m done 🙂 I will listen to the lecture right now anyway though 😁

David Prendergast

I find myself asking this question: "Is the juice worth the squeeze?" This is a basic hurdle that confronts us with every effort that we contemplate. What is the ROI, in economic terms? I occasionally "do" jigsaw puzzles. A couple of years ago, someone gave me a puzzle representing the image on the Rolling Stones' album cover for "Lips". If you know the artwork, it has only 3 colors: red, white, and black. There is no variation in shade or texture. It was "the puzzle from hell". For the vast majority of the puzzle, you could only go by the shape of the piece. I completed it, but the better path would have been to forego it and spend that time on a good book, or elsewhere. The juice was not worth the squeeze. So, it is not that there are no rewards to reading Pynchon - there are many. But there are also many pains. I am not resolved.

Tatiana

Ecocriticism So we have discovered that Slothrop/Pynchon is a tree hugger, recommends forest bathing (shinrin-yoku). The two biggest counterculture issues were war and ecology. Here is a good ecocritical summary of GR: Schaub | The Environmental Pynchon: Gravity's Rainbow and the Ecological Context | Pynchon Notes https://pynchonnotes.openlibhums.org/article/id/2738/

Tatiana

Ecocriticism 2 This is now the most active area of critical theory, overtaking Gender theory. It is very exciting and well worth looking into. And especially germane to Pynchon, Steinbeck, Whitman and Hardy and of course Shakespeare. I recommend this book: https://www.amazon.com/Ecocriticism-Critical-Idiom-Greg-Garrard/dp/1032004029/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?crid=3VSX5XCXSQ1U9&keywords=ecocriticism+garrard&qid=1703162879&sprefix=ecocri%2Caps%2C683&sr=8-1 It is broken into sections on pastoral, wilderness, apocalypse, dwelling, animals and earth, with literary examples of each. We have already read so many of these in HLBC.

Tatiana

Scatology in GR, someone has to address it :) Most people who even get as far as the scatology scene with the Brigadier and Katje gag and wonder why it is there beyond shock value. I have several thoughts on this. First, it is essential to the text. If not an editor would have excised it. And Pynchon would have insisted. And because it is essential it is ironic that this very scene got between him and the Pulitzer, and will surely prevent him from ever receiving the Nobel. Conventional elites preserving the precise order he wishes to overthrow. It is essential because Pynchon is doing everything possible to arouse indignation at war, authoritarian structures, the military industrial complex. We are unable to rise to this, so brainwashed are we by societal structures and the media. We have agreed to refer to ourselves as consumers! So he goes for the one thing certain to disgust readers. In the most graphical possible detail. Promptly begging the question why we are so upset by this and not the things that should really upset us. Note that the Brigadier does this as an escape from his world, he is on the right side of Pynchon's equation. Wiping out disgust with a greater disgust. It is his real life that is truly perverse and degenerate. He makes the connection, Pynchon wants the reader to do the same. Second, and this is my personal flight of fancy, Pynchon opposes the artificial world of scientific creations against the natural world. (See post on trees). Nothing is more natural than poop. Your dog or cat will eat it in a heartbeat. Why? Because we excrete valuable minerals. Poop also contains essential nitrogen and is the ideal fertilizer, used by all successful societies until modern science replaced it with chemical fertilizers that in fact have made us all sick. So interestingly the Brigadier's escapade becomes a metaphor for the natural circle of life.

Hazel Sun
>>125041441

But now you have a cool puzzle story! And Ben is a heck of a juicer 😄so at least you’re not alone…

Tim Trippel
>>125046616

Makes me think how the news can portray the most horrific events, but the FCC requires the word "shit" to be bleeped.

Bill Markland

It really helps to listen to the audible version by George Guidall. With so many strange words - unless you speak German- I tend to mentally read blah and can’t maintain any consistency without the audio input. The reader has a great voice and makes even the worst scatalogical passages more acceptable I am glad I took on this challenge and will read again- after a break!

River

Unfortunately, I've fallen behind on GR. I'm not giving up though, so I'll look forward to the lectures and more of the discussions later. I did want to wish everyone a joyful, warm, healthy, and cheerful holiday season with lots of reading too! I'm grateful for all of you here:) ox

Yoknapatawpha
>>125050409

Bill, I agree. I started reading and listening concurrently after finishing Part 1. The audiobook helps with pacing (I play back at 1.5x speed, which is about my typical reading speed). Helps to hear all the pronunciations of odd names, foreign language phrases, etc. Yes, I miss some things, but I will go back after finishing GR and fill in gaps with Weisenburger. The Ebert YouTube series also is helpful.

hardcoreliterature
>>125010694

I can completely understand that, Marilyn. There’s a lot in this one that makes me personally uncomfortable too. You’ve done a great job getting through it!

Yoknapatawpha

Ben, perfect timing! I just finished Part 3 last night (phew, a long and strange one), glad to be on the home stretch. Looking forward to hearing your discussion of Part 3 when I get home tonight.

hardcoreliterature
>>125021121

I really relate to your reading experience of Gravity’s Rainbow! I really love your idea of the book going from dream to nightmare to reality. And thank you so much for your kind words, my friend :) Wishing you a very happy holidays!!

hardcoreliterature
>>125024213

Wow. That is such an extraordinary line! Thank you so much for making this such a special read-through, Tim. It’s been fun exploring the labyrinth with you all. I’m completely with you in preferring conventional over experimental literature. But, as you say, it’s definitely great to get outside one’s comfort zone now and then :)

hardcoreliterature
>>125027626

A linguistic wilderness is such an incredible phrase! Thank you so much for bringing this book to life with us, Miri :) You’re so right. Experimental novels really highlight the value of having a community of deep readers. I love your description of the novel’s effect upon you. That would make for a tremendous review to put on the back of the book! Wishing you a very happy holidays too ☺️

ALEX LEMON

Oh man, this book gives me a headache. Plodding my way through section 3. Always enjoy the lectures.

Thomas Rike

I just finished Part III yesterday, and I was rushing because I knew you would be coming out with a lecture any day. I think I would have preferred you assign this part as two assignments since I really wanted to spend longer stretches of time during this reread. It was difficult keeping so many "scattered" pieces in mind. Not being able to put down Tale of Two Cities once I started also took its toll. Although this was ostensibly set in the mid-forties when I was just a toddler, the resonance of 70s, when I was at my most radical with Vietnam, Nixon, and Cambodia looming in America coupled with the present age of corporate rule is profound: "It means this War was never political at all, the politics was all theatre, all just to keep the people distracted . . . secretly, it was being dictated instead by the needs of technology . . . by a conspiracy between human beings and techniques, by something that needed the energy-burst of war, crying, “Money be damned, the very life of [insert name of Nation] is at stake,” but meaning, most likely, dawn is nearly here, I need my night’s blood, my funding, funding, ahh more, more. . . . The real crises were crises of allocation and priority, not among firms—it was only staged to look that way—but among the different Technologies, Plastics, Electronics, Aircraft, and their needs which are understood only by the ruling elite . . . " As a long-time reader of Finnegans Wake, I agree wholeheartedly with your characterization of the book's cyclic (Viconian) and dreamlike nature and the idea that the book is a rocket; these 32 episodes definitely a reminder that we are accelerating in our descent at 32 feet per second per second under the influence of gravity. I am reminded of the Samuel Beckett quote about James Joyce: "He is not writing about something. It is the thing itself." And the death resurrection motive in the symmetric parabolic curve also connects with the 1132 date in FW; 11 the rebirth and the 32 with the Fall. Pynchon has put the dream out for each of his readers and we individually connect and interpret it via our own experiences. A good friend who studied chemistry in college was the person who first turned me on to GR loves all of the chemistry facts and allusions in the text: "Kekulé dreams the Great Serpent holding its own tail in its mouth, the dreaming Serpent which surrounds the World. But the meanness, the cynicism with which this dream is to be used. The Serpent that announces, “The World is a closed thing, cyclical, resonant, eternally-returning,” is to be delivered into a system whose only aim is to violate the Cycle. Taking and not giving back, demanding that “productivity” and “earnings” keep on increasing with time, the System removing from the rest of the World these vast quantities of energy to keep its own tiny desperate fraction showing a profit: and not only most of humanity—most of the World, animal, vegetable and mineral, is laid waste in the process." As a mathematics teacher for 50 years I love how he incorporates the physics and math into his prose. It is almost poetic how he describes the mathematical integration of a rate of change to arrive at displacement: Most of his calculating these days is with marks and pfennigs, not functions of idealistic r and θ, naïve x and y. . . . But in the dynamic space of the living Rocket, the double integral has a different meaning. To integrate here is to operate on a rate of change so that time falls away: change is stilled. . . . “Meters per second” will integrate to “meters.” The moving vehicle is frozen, in space, to become architecture, and timeless. It was never launched. It will never fall. And the mathematical process of differentiation as embodied in the rooftops of old buildings: "The most persistent of these, which seem to show up at the least real times of day, are the stairstep gables that front so many of these ancient north-German buildings, rising, backlit, a strangely wet gray as if risen out of the sea, over these straight and very low horizons. They hold shape, they endure, like monuments to Analysis. Three hundred years ago mathematicians were learning to break the cannonball’s rise and fall into stairsteps of range and height, Δx and Δy, allowing them to grow smaller and smaller, approaching zero as armies of eternally shrinking midgets galloped upstairs and down again, the patter of their diminishing feet growing finer, smoothing out into continuous sound. . ." And the cinematic quality of moments of time captured by connecting still shots frame by frame analytically: ". . .This analytic legacy has been handed down intact—it brought the technicians at Peenemünde to peer at the Askania films of Rocket flights, frame by frame, Δx by Δy, flightless themselves . . . film and calculus, both pornographies of flight. As an octogenarian, with a tall stack of books to read, I may never reread GR again, but I will continue to dip it into for the rest of my life. When it was included on this years reading list I was thrilled and now as I join the counterforce I do so with much anticipation. Thanks for this end of the year gift as well as the Dickens. I love experimental novels, but as a lifelong reader I love "conventional" novels too.

Yoknapatawpha

Thanks Ben for a great year of reading-- you've been a wonderful guide. 2023 syllabus is almost in the history books for me--only Tale of Two Cities remains, to be enjoyed Christmas week. Your discussions are so helpful and inspiring. Thanks for your references to additional source materials. Your challenge to join in to the HLBC propelled me thru 2023, a banner year in all my years of reading. Gravity's Rainbow is amazing, confusing, disturbing, intractable... and irresistible. More comment awaits my completion of the reading. I do have issues with TP and GR, let's just say. Some of my favorite bits are the interludes of limericks and ribald songs. I think Pynchon might have spent more time composing them than pondering over long passages of stream-of-consciousness writing and nonsensical Not-in-Kansas-Anymore narrative. The poems and songs are much more difficult to get right. They are brilliant. Subject for another talk.

ALEX LEMON

I think i've reached brenschluss with GR. Hopefully momentum and gravity can bring me to the target.

Tatiana

I looked down at the top step of the escalator at the Quebec airport yesterday and saw it was manufactured by Thyssen Krupp. If you don't know who those families are do Google them. Pynchon is not paranoid, he is dead right. Off to a bookstore for Moliere and Montaigne. And I hope something revolutionary. Btw Quebequois French is so far incomprehensible. Like Geordie :) I kinda love it.

Nigel Burmester

Thank you for another great lecture on this book, Ben. It's packed full of helpful information and insights. I've also found the comments of fellow HLBC members and their discoveries and links to articles super helpful. Thank you fellow GR readers, I would want to be reading this book on my own!! Part 3 was really hard for me to keep going with. The disappearance of many of the characters that were holding my interest in this novel felt like such a loss. I found my interest in reading the book dwindle due to the removal of certain characters and then the introduction of others... and confusion in general. I guess this is the disintegration Ben talks about. At the same time I recognize seasons in my own life that are like this... people you've spent lots of time with move and are no longer in your day-to-day world, confusion can reign in certain days, weeks, months... a sort of spinning out of control, I guess Pynchon nailed that aspect of life. On another note, I was out on a run this morning and there was a rainbow in the sky (we've been having some rainy weather here in Southern California). I had to stop for a minute and give it a good look in light of our reading. I certainly looked at it differently than I have in the past! A few favorite passages: "No, there's no leaving shame after all - not down here - it has to be swallowed sharp-edged and ugly, and lived with in pain, every day." p.647 "Because it's hard to get over the wonder of finding that Earth is a living critter, after all these years of thinking about a big dumb rock to find a body and psyche, he feels like a child again, he knows that in theory he must not attach himself, but still he is in love with his sense of wonder, with having found it again, even this late, even knowing he must soon let it go... To find that Gravity, taken so for granted, is really something eerie, Messianic, extrasensory in Earth's mindbody... " p.698

Joe Beaulieu

There are a couple themes that I find intriguing (random vs. cause-effect; gnostic type attitudes, mediations on death), but the one that really by far pulls me in is the theme of the preterite. It shows up in a few places, most directly when he describes the book William Slothrop wrote. But, my favorite quote on it is: “’ Not if you’ve been where we have. Forty years ago, in Südwest, we were nearly exterminated. There was no reason. Can you understand that? No reason. We couldn’t even find comfort in the Will of God Theory. …. We have a word that we whisper, a mantra for times that threaten to be bad, Mba-kayere. You may find that it will work for you, Mba-kayere. It means `I am passed over.’ To those who survived von Trotha, it also means that we have learned to stand outside our history and watch it, without feeling too much. A little schizoid.’” pp. 367-368 (Penguin edition) I became somewhat interested in the theology of the puritans when I found out that there are a bunch of them in my family tree (sins of the father?). I am haunted by a passage in John Winthrop's (governor/leader of puritans who led them to Boston, MA) about a woman who was in despair over her uncertainty over whether she was part of the elect: “Having been in much trouble of mind about her spiritual estate, [she] at length grew into utter desperation, and could not endure to hear of any comfort, so as one day she took her little infant and threw it into a well, and then came into the house and said, now she was sure she should be damned for she had drowned her child.”

Joe Beaulieu

Ben, on your lecture and mention of the power of naming, I'm reminded of something I think I read in Stanley Fish's book on Paradise Lost. Apparently, around the time of Milton, there were a lot of theories about how there was a perfect language that was lost with the Fall. I don't think the power of naming is necessarily in the name, though I suppose punsters, Mrs. Malaprop and the like and creators who need the jog from nearby neurons firing might disagree. For me, the real power is that when you name something, you declare it a thing, you split the world in two: that thing and everything else. And, the rest of us are now stuck with that declaration / model of reality. Maybe we can cut it up or glue pieces to other things, but it becomes a lot more work.

Tatiana
>>125170347

Excellent point. This is why playing with language is so important. Break the mold.

epiphoney

I'm still on page 131. The Kindle app says "26 hrs 36 mins left in book". This video "Underrated Technique to Help You Read Hard Books" says to use "superficial reading" to get through the first time. Low expectations are the key to happiness.

Vicky

I think I prefer a mixture of conventional and experimental novels. After GR I needed a rest that’s for sure 😂 I immediately read two easy modern novels as a palate cleanser haha. But I know I need the challenge of a big difficult unusual book on the go too. I would describe this book as having a loose plot around war and capitalism, but with a lot of experimental writing and the use of revulsion all the way through - to me, I wished the first section of the book had not deteriorated quite so much into chaos in the middle - I know why it did but it went a little bit too far for me to feel I was participating in any meaningful way , if that makes sense. What will resonate with most is the very different representation of people during ww2 - to most of what I’ve read. This brought me really up close to recognisable living breathing humans in a more effective way than lots of what I’ve read yet in this era. (Even though they are doing extreme things!)

mariah schneider

When I saw this episode posted a few days ago I wondered if I would make it through this section before next year. At this point I hope I make it through the whole book this year because I don't really want to carry over my reading of it until next year. This book is experimental and while it has some excellent writing, it's crass and paranoid and what I imagine an LSD experiment might be like for people. Describing it as dream like with it's odd disjointed scenes works pretty well also. I tried explaining this book to someone who hasn't read it and I wasn't very successful. I would also be very careful about who I would recommend this book to. I'm also not sure if I'll pick this one up again later on. I know I've missed a lot. The whole Enzian and Tchitcherine thing went totally over my head and I'm sure a lot of other things did also. The level of some of the characters depravity really disturbed me, but it does make me wonder what goes through some peoples' minds. There are scenes that are going to to stick in my mind forever from this book. It's a vivid, paranoid fever dream.

Colin ellesmere

I am still 40 pages shy of ending part three and reading "A Tale of Two Cities" has been scarificed to accomodate GR. I really disliked this book the first 200 pages. Then struggled at times after, but the more I look up references, I am not reading quickly, the more my view is changing. I have been converted. Already I am confident I will read GR again, and behind all the paranoia and the atrocious behaviour of so many characters, there is a pathos and a kinder message emerging. Once I finish section 3 I will post a longer comment. You do need to dig deep to appreciate GR. I just read a commentary on Slothrop's manifestation as pigman. Rooted in teutonic mythology, Jacob Grimm, the pig can be seen as a symbol of sacrifice and freedom, the preterite and the elect, the victim and the hero. Maybe that is not accurate or what Pynchon intended, but it adds a deal of depth to what can appear originally as only ludicrous. As this section ends Marvy's testicles get sacrificed and Slothrop escapes. The pig has saved Slothrop but its binery function has condemned Marvy. How does Pynchon come up with all these connections? His brain must be wired very differently to most of us.

Colin ellesmere
>>125122635

Companies hide behind subsidiaries, take over other companies but retain the original names. Unless you research you have little idea who is the actual owner. I would like a system where whatever company is advertised the actual real owner must be listed on the same advert. It might wake up a few people to the consolidation of wealth and power that continues. Turning democracies into oligarchies. Anyway Tatiana is this part of what you were referring to. No doubt there is much more. 1941: Krupp Germania shipyard was extended with the acquisition of Deutsche Schiff- und Maschinenbau AG "Deschimag" to include larger ships and submarines. Krupp took advantage of foreign labourers, slave labourers, prisoners of war, and Jews to compensate for labour shortages. It is estimated that a total of 100,000 people were forced to work by the company. Moreover, it had a workshop near the Auschwitz complex. Due to the company's involvement in the war, Alfried Krupp von Bohlen und Halbach was subsequently convicted for crimes against humanity and received a sentence of 12 years imprisonment during The United States of America vs. Alfried Krupp, et al., trial of December 8, 1947- July 31, 1948.[9]

Tatiana
>>125333207

I highly recommend reading the much shorter The Crying of Lot 49, which preceded GR. It revolves around a conspiracy by a group called Tristero which he associates with another family like the Thyssens and Krupps, the Thurn und Taxis.

Robert Cioffi

So far , I really dislike this book, and I’ll push thru , but I doubt I’ll read it again . It’s just too dense and there’s nothing about the characters that I find appealing

Mirjam

After much struggle I abandoned the book. It didn’t grab me at all, don’t feel for any of the characters and franky most of the time haven’t got a clue what’s going on. I decided this is not the right time apparently; not sure if it will ever be but definitely not now. I instead spent my reading time on Tale of Two cities and made a start with East of Eden, which I both love.

Kathleen Stewart

The ending line about real and lonely fucking is done on paper now; the idea that those not in the know fought for those in the know, and the vast picture created from the restoration of life, going back to their towns, etc., post WWII compared to something like the Revolutionary War, etc. are “themes” that most stood out to me.

Kait Jackson

Just finished part 3 today, I am absolutely loving how the line between real history and GR fiction is getting so incredibly blurry - did not anticipate learning so much about post-WWII politics via Pynchon. I still need to catch up on this post but has anyone shared this gem yet? Tom Lehrer's song on Wernher Von Braun: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjDEsGZLbio

Towhee

I do look up names sometimes to see if they were real - he often refers to real people, but often, he does not. Keeps you guessing. Thank you for the Tom Lehrer link - very appropriate!

Towhee

I finished part three yesterday, but still need to listen to the lecture. A couple of thoughts though: Do you ever wonder if Pynchon rambles on with nonsense, then throws in an important line or two, then rambles some more? Sometimes I feel like this is happening. Is he just messing with us, seeing who can dig out the important parts? It doesn't always read this way, but sometimes... While reading the last part of this section, I suddenly recalled the movie Who Framed Roger Rabbit. The craziness of auto/oil/tire manufacturers coming together to bury the Red Car public transit and promote automobiles which so define Los Angeles. Some say that is just a crazy (paranoid) conspiracy theory. Yet, it makes perfect sense (especially while reading Gravity's Rainbow!) :)

Misha
>>125527473

I've thought this as well both that he's messing with us and also about his purported drug usage while writing LOL. Even LSD at times which - that would explain a lot! I've decided it's a mixture just like his - "his" - acceptance of the 1974 National Book Award for example. He definitely gets joy out of pushing boundaries and thumbing his nose at the establishment and sometimes us!

Misha

Back to say I finished part three last night! Reading this together feels like hiking the PCT something I've never done or will do but I've read enough Cheryl Strayed to allude. I'm here at a trail stop and leaving you all a note. :) My favorite part of this section, and possibly the entire book, is still Pökler's exposition and his time in Zwölfkinder. I won't elaborate too much for those that haven't yet reached it. I have since mulled over the concept of Zwölfkinder ("twelve children" in English) and discovered a lengthy discussion on Reddit (Reddit has been a Godsend for GR, Reddit was MADE for GR) culminating in this: "We can thus see in Disney, two trends that define the age: the desire to escape the constraints of life through the new magic wand of technology and the desire to pretend that we have done so in invented worlds of simulation. One might say that if the great myth or "meta-story" of America is the story of progress, then Disney World is a place that masquerades as the happy ending, in which progress culminates in a utopia of transcendence that undoes the fallen state of nature, society and ourselves." This connection and that of Lyle Bland alone could keep any conspiracist worth their salt busy for weeks. Fascinating stuff. I also keep thinking about - a million things - but for the moment Slothrop's emotional center. I've seen people say that none of the characters are "likable," something with which I don't agree. But, something I DO wonder is, is Slothrop? I certainly sympathize with him, I find him funny, brazen, fearless, my goodness. And while I've of course never seen him he certainly has a way with the ladies, just falling over, sometimes literally, at the sight of him every one. So he must be unfailingly charismatic, quite easy on the eyes. But do I care about him, what happens to him? I was leaning towards - no. I'm interested in him but don't really care about him, beyond the broader theme of what he represents. I don't feel that I know him or that I'm supposed to. But then there is his relationship with Tantivy.... Tantivy "visits" him in some form on page 561 in my version. And they have this exchange: S: "'I guess we don't have much time...I know this is shitty and really selfish but I'm so alone now, and...I heard that just after it happens, sometimes, you'll sort of hang around for a while, sort of look after a friend who's 'here'...' 'Sometimes.' He is smiling: but his serenity and distance are the stretch of an impotent cry past Slothrop's reach. 'Are you looking after me?' 'No, Slothrop. Not you...'" On the next page Slothrop makes a "Partial List of Wishes on Evening Stars for This Period." "Let me find that chicken coop the old lady told me about." And then - "Let Tantivy really be alive." Is there anyone else with whom he has this connection? Also a relationship that isn't transactional or sexual, i.e., all of his with women? Tantivy DID try to help him at the casino but Slothrop has no shortage of people helping him, complete and total strangers help him without any obvious benefit to themselves at every turn it's often comical. But Tantivy is the only one he acknowledges in this way that he thinks capable of looking after him even in death. This is also the only time - and there are so very many times I could just be forgetting - that Slothrop displays sober vulnerability, expresses that he NEEDS looking after which of course he does. His feelings towards Tantivy don't feel transactional or paranoid. They feel real. Tantivy made me care for him. That's all for now! Ben's point that it's impossible to drop into a conversation about GR made me laugh out loud - too true! Last night I closed it, laughed, and said aloud, "So....it was Major Marvy who was castrated because he had put on the pig costume!" Fortunately the only one in the room at the time was my dog but even he said, "...what are you on about." Ah, well. The end of the trail is in sight, we're so close, we've got this, keep going, everyone! I'll see you there gnarly blisters and all.

Bill Markland

The pedophile-based sex scene in part 3 section 15 is a bridge too far for me. I am very broad minded but… Ben can you give me a literature-based rationale for its usage or is it “nothing is taboo”? I haven’t read other comments so may be someone else has also raised this topic.

Kait Jackson
>>125561362

(would also love to hear what others think about this). I feel like all of the children in the book end up abused - Ilse, Bianca, even the boy chasing his lemming in part 3 ends up being sexually abused. my reading is that this goes hand in hand with Ben's point in the lecture about the younger generation being sold off / abandoned to the war machine. ie, Bianca's ending with her being presumably murdered by her mom, a literary interpretation being the defilement and then destruction of innocence which happens at what seem to be the ~brennschluss of the book. IMO, i think Pynchon is also just laying out a lot of truths about society that people don't like to acknowledge or think too much about. It's not a far jump from the Anubis to Jeffrey Epstein

Tatiana

I posted this on the Faust forum. Not light reading! Thomas Pynchon - The Spectre of Faust in the Early Works of Thomas Pynchon - Presses universitaires de la Méditerranée https://books.openedition.org/pulm/13973

Jamie Newman

So I'm definitely a bit behind, but I am deeply enjoying this challenge and I think I will be rereading this one. There's just so much here to mull over. It is like reading a fever-dream and it really has had me disjointed since I started-so powerful!

Steve_DC

Pynchon is insane. A-and and not in a good sense. I was hoping the last few chapters of Part 4 would pull together strings and clarify. If they did not; I found a very generous half of these last 12 chapters opaque. You can’t tell who is speaking a good part of the time. We are uncertain whether we are entering the present, the past or a dream sequence. The characters are shells. He’s a very gifted writer, especially some of the humorous sequences, and his prose, which often leaves it to the reader to fill in prepositions and nouns and, notoriously, nouns, is often fun and engaging. He can write, just not novels. I actively disliked the author on several occasions, something entirely new to me in decades of reading, and was tempted to end my subscription if I were in for more of this — speaking to you, Ben. If you assign others like this, at least select shorter works. For intellectual palate cleansing I recommend: https://lithub.com/the-50-best-one-star-amazon-reviews-of-thomas-pynchons-gravitys-rainbow Steve

mark sanford gross

I have given up trying to align where I am in the audio version to where I should be in the written version.:) spent a lot of time calculating and even using AI to help locate. No chapter #'2. No episode #s. Just total mind-overwhelming things to remember while walking along the bluffs listening to this awesome audiobooks. Thankfully, Ben, in what might be "show me number 1!" of recent best advice is "Don't Try and Understand Everything!" Whew.! )h y, and just try to thumb the pages and visually try to recognize a paragraph I am looking for. So! Instead of trying to locate two amazing passages in my audio experience while running and hiking that give me peace and comfort in knowing this community will understand; even recall or maybe just have yet another ah-ha moment. SPOILER: I love how brain connections work thinking it's only a personal thing but then again, it's Pynchon and all of you, so it probably static shocks other brains. I share anyway: 1. The Graduate premiered in NYC at the Coronet Theatre in NYC in 1967 (probably not far from where TP lives). Gravity's Rainbow was published in 1973.after an estimated 7-10 years to write which means (you know where I'm going with this!) The hallmark line of The Graduate was "Plastics." Referring to the advice given to Dustin Hoffman that Plastics is the wave of the future. The industry to get into. Recently, I finished the whole discussion of plastics somewhere in "In the Zone" which included the rise and takeover of plastics including a plastic penis showing up. Ok, fill in the blanks of my thinking and if you haven;t thought of this connection which while I may think is my own ah-ha moment, it's probably intentional given the time overlap of the film and novel. In any event, bravo once again to the subliminal messages even if imagined. No need to understand everything, You're right, Mr Ben. If I focused on that, I might have missed the whole 'plastics' thing, If folks out there/here are saying, "Duh, of course it's no coincidence it okay for me to feel ignorant and naive:). Second: Soon later on in the reading, another monologue about "wait for the film in the future when there will be no boom mics and equipment like we have now... etc. etc. And just the other day, I saw Oppenheimer. Oh my. Have a nice day community members. Thanks for indulging my chaotic thoughts.

James Heppell
>>126258617

Hi Mark, I might have read your comment too late to help with the audiobook alignment but I kept notes throughout and here they are, they apply to the Gravity's Rainbow (Penguin Classics) (Rough Cut) (1990) edition, ISBN: 978-0143039945:

Karen Beard

When I am reading this book it pulls me into as other's have described it "a fever dream". I also would characterize it as somewhat hallucenogenic at times. I had to take a break. I traveled on a vacation to Italy in February and just couldn't wrap my mind around this book for about 2 months afterwards. Well I just picked it up again and finished In the Zone. I purposefully am consuming it in small bites, episode by episode. I rely on the companion to help me stay oriented. It definitely adds to the appreciation. Especially the WW 2 history which I am finding fascinating. He integrates so much of it into the narrative that despite its surrealist style, it provides an anchor for me. I love his writing style, his descriptions of places in time and his humor. The shocking scenes are a bit hard to read but in the context of the narrative, I can tolerate it. I struggle with understanding but i hang on and just enjoy the ride. that is essentially my strategy. I hope that I will be able to finish and then tackle this book again because, the first time, you have to get your bearings. You can't possibly appreciate all that he throwing at you at once.!!!!

Jonathon Glover

A chapter a chapter my sanity for a chapter! A little over 2 years since my last comment in the Gravity’s Rainbow lectures. This has been my only DNF in the HCLBC, and with a little time between Bleak House and Lonesome Dove, I’ve returned to this strange journey. What to say about Part 3? It’s massive! And the lack of chapters make it purposefully difficult to follow. What I found most useful, as a way into the text, was to think of this as a Picaresque novel, which I think this section is. Slothrop moves from one setting and cast of characters to the next, creating a Gestalt. Recognising this structure, allowed me a framework to better grasp what was happening in each section, and to not get too caught up in an overriding thematic exploration. Ironically, I think this allowed to better see, and to engage with those thematic ideas - capitalism, colonialism, racism, military industrial etc… And with almost all of these areas I recognise the genius of Pynchon and engage intellectually with his arguments. However, every time I was intellectually drawn into his ideas, I was disengaged by the (mostly) unnecessary description of sex and general grossness of the events. There are times when I find Pynchon’s writing funny, insightful and poetic. And others I find it gross, childish and perverted. Two of the main messages I have always gotten from this bookclub is to appreciate great literature, and there is much to appreciate here. But the second one is that we are our actions, and whilst I can appreciate Pynchon’s ideas and writing, there are elements of the writing here that crosses the line from subversive to perverted. The way that every woman, jumps on Slothrop, and how they all seemingly ejaculate at the same time, read like wish fulfillment from a writer that has had little experiences in relationships and/or women. If we can admire his satire and social criticism, which at times are brilliant, I think we also have to call out the horrible misogyny throughout the novel. The section where Slothrop commits statuary rape to Bianca is objectively awful. And some may say that it is Pynchon being subversive. Perhaps. But we have seen enough Woody Allen/R Kelly types that it would also not surprise me if this was the work of a perverted man. I will push through and finish the novel but I am not sure that it is one that I will ever return to.