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Poll

NTR Quest - Odyssey 12 - Find Djir

  • Go with Fiona (Submit) 12
  • Time Apart 14
  • 2023-09-22
  • 26 votes
{'title': 'NTR Quest - Odyssey 12 - Find Djir', 'choices': [{'text': 'Go with Fiona (Submit)', 'votes': 12}, {'text': 'Time Apart', 'votes': 14}], 'closes_at': None, 'created_at': datetime.datetime(2023, 9, 22, 20, 2, 26, tzinfo=datetime.timezone.utc), 'description': None, 'allow_multiple': False, 'total_votes': 26}

Content


As soon as Fiona left your side you thought. 'I'm going to go find him. I could help. I could at least see what's wrong.' You moved through the assembled party-goers. There were quite a few Aniyub dressed in breezy clothes, still. They were enjoying the festivities and did not look intimidated or cowed. It was definitely not even close to the sight of Xandria after the Orrans landed. As you passed a greater mix of Gnolls and Aniyub, they turned to stare subtly. You were likely the first of your kind that they had seen. You had no idea where to look, you just had a direction so you stopped to ask one of the Gnoll soldiers.

“Djir? Where is he?”

He lifted his paw and pointed further down, and directed you around a pillar. You looked to make sure Fiona wasn't on to you, then wandered in that direction and turned. The Large Gnoll was standing, leaning on a railing overlooking the river. There was an Aniyub male with long, brown hair and tall perky ears beside him; he wore loose, colorful clothing that was almost see through.  The two looked to be conversing comfortably. After a few seconds he covered his mouth, glanced over and pointed to you with his other hand. Djir straightened up, his maw widening into a more prominent grin.
“Fin?” The Gnoll inquired warmly.

You weren't sure what to say to that except. “The one and only?”

Djir laughed. “Join us.”

You took a breath and stepped towards the two men. The three of you made a loose triangle with the way you were standing. Djir angled himself towards you and the Aniyub leaned back against the railing to just observe.
“As I understand it... You offered some unreasonable deal to Fiona.”

Djir nodded. “Mmn.” He stared down at you curiously.
“Did she say what it was?”

“No. I was coming to ask myself since she wouldn't say.”

“Oh.” Djir nodded and waved someone over. An Aniyub server approached, bowed and presented a bowl of shining fruit. Djir plucked a colorful little item for himself and popped it into his mouth, chomping it and swallowing quickly. He then plucked a duo of cherries on their stem and held them over the boy he was with. Djir's guest smiled, tilted his head back and stuck his tongue out as the gnoll dropped the cherries on his tongue and waited for them to be pulled into the Jackal's mouth. The stems were pulled and the boy covered his mouth as he began to chew. Djir flicked the stem away into the water all while you watched the strange sight.
“Cherry?” Djir asked.

“No, no...” You waved your hands in front of you.
“I'm fine.”

“Of course.” The Gnoll exhaled contentedly and claimed very carefully.
“The offer was for your family to stay in power... For you to continue to hold the cities you have and pending many years of acting in good faith on your end, an opportunity for you to receive administration over the cities you already lost.” The Aniyub cleared his throat.
“While retaining the culture differences that develops here in the time that passes.” Djir added with a short nod.

“What do you want? Sounds like you're giving this away. But if it isn't worth keeping for you then it isn't worth taking and why are we even talking? Just everyone walk away.”

Djir lifted a brow. “That's an interesting assessment, Fin. If we take that assumption for granted, do you think it's ever worth taking and keeping something, even if it is at a loss?”

You felt put on the spot. “Uh... I'm not sure?”

Djir tilted his head to one side and looked at you closely. “Was asking if you thought it could, not if you knew.”

You shook your head and shrugged. “I suppose it could. Seems like that's what you're saying.”

“It isn't. Come. Let's sit.” He whispers to the Aniyub.
“I may be back for you. Don't go anywhere...” The boy smirked and gave a little wave to the both of you as you left to go sit down in a cushioned chair overlooking the calm river nearby. Djir sat and as you took a separate seat across from him he gripped the arm and easily pulled it to his side so that you were closer.
“I like to be close when I'm speaking to someone.” He offered.

“Okay... You- you said it isn't?”

“Not specifically. Because, there's two ways to think about it. A loss colloquially, and a true loss. There's no way a true loss is worth sustaining if there is no benefit. But perhaps there could be some transferable benefit. Something that does not seem worth it could offer me far more, in ways that others simply do not understand.” Djir explained. You felt like you were being primed for something.
“But these cities are actually directly beneficial. I was just making a point.”

“You like to talk, huh?” You let slip out before cringing at your own words.

Djir cackled. “I like to laugh, too. Thank you!” He reached out and rubbed your opposite shoulder.

“So we're back to what you get.”

“A reasonable tribute.” He made it sound casual.

“In the same vein as what you said, a reasonable tribute to you could mean more to the people paying it than it does to you, right?”

“Yes! Yes. That's true, Fin.” Djir leaned forward. He was surprisingly polite for someone that gave off every impression of being a monster in appearance and reputation.
“Are you a fast learner, Fin? I take you to be a fast learner. I like that.”

You smiled bashfully. “I think I'm as fast as Fiona. We both learn fairly quick.”

Subtly, Djir spread out so that his furry legs, clawed feet were stretched out around you space. You shrunk into your own seat in response. He glanced down, noticing it and pulling his thin lips back into a smirk.
“Do you often think of yourself in comparison to her?”

“Not always.”

He spoke in a way to make it sound less like an inquisition and more like he was curious about you. “Tell me... What makes you different from her? You aren't defined by her the same way I wouldn't accuse her of being defined by you.”

You rubbed your eyes. “That's...” You two trained in similar ways. You did the same things. You wore similar clothes. It was almost like you were copies of one another, flipped. But who was the copy of who? You began to feel self-conscious. She was dominating things as of you. You felt like it was you. Then a thought occurred.
“My father I- I favor our father. I love my Mother and Sister but they've distanced themselves from his memory ever since he left.” You frowned.
“Ugh, sorry for getting personal.”

“That's good.” Djir complimented.
“You have your own thoughts and opinions, too. An entire personality that diverts from hers.”
He rested a hand on the back of your seat, a permanent fixture eventually, and leaned in while lowering his voice.

“Never apologize for becoming personal.”

You blushed and leaned back, but that simple drove you to lean back onto his thick forearm. “Okay... Okay, so what is the tribute?”

He cackled subtly. Gold. Grains. Fish. Food and supplies are big. Xandria's port is a very tantalizing thing as well. We have ideas. But... It all kind of fell apart at one impasse.” Djir grimaced.

“Was it the port?”

“No... I casually suggested that I could mentor you. You sister left immediately at that.”

“At that? Well... What do you mean Mentor, and why would I mentor under you?”

“You, your family. You are not suited to rule. I think you are more favorable than their Queens, however... I could groom you into someone that could stand above on your own. I don't think your sister wishes for that. But I'm sorry if that's an assumption.”

“No...” You thought for a moment. Standing apart from her was just about the thing she seemed to least want. She even denied your opinions as of late in favor of her own.
“She thinks she knows what's best for me.”

“Maybe she does, Fin.” Djir said softly.

“What?” You looked up in surprise. You were expecting him to try and pry the two of you apart with his words. That's what it felt like was going to happen. Instead, Djir spoke carefully and diplomatically.
“I don't know the two of you, Fin. I don't know that it isn't best for you. Only you know that.” He motioned towards himself. His dense, fur-covered chest.
“I believe that you are smart. I believe that there is much I could teach you and show you. If she had allowed me to finish, I was going to say that... My mentorship over you was contingent on you agreeing.”

“And if I don't agree?”

“We remove it from the deal.” He shrugged.
“All the other forms of tribute are fine.”

“Fin!” You flinched as your sisters voice cut through the quite.

“Shit...” You muttered.

Djir stood up and helped you up so that you were positioned beside him with his large paw poised on your back. You were not sure if it was purposeful, but the sight incensed Fiona who stomped up to you and glared at him.
“What did I tell you!?”

You shrunk passively in front of her. “You... Told me not to find Djir.” Djir's hand slid up and squeezed your shoulder.
“But... Why?” You questioned more sternly, to her surprise.
“He's just nice. We had a nice chat.”

“Oh... And I'm sure he told you what he's after, then?” Fiona asked smugly.

“He did. He said he wants to 'mentor' me.”

She smiled and look up in disbelief. “He's lying. He wants to control you. He wants to groom you like one of his boys, you IDIOT. You haven't been briefed at all about him like I have.”

That was the last straw you stared back at her harshly and actually caused her to recoil as you shouted. “Who's fault is that!? I wasn't included! I was asked and then ignored when you didn't like the answer. I wasn't even 'informed.' You left me out of everything so that you could handle it yourself but what about ME!? Do you feel like I'm less than you? Is that why you wont let me do anything...” You frowned and took a breath.

“Fin...” She held out her hand. You almost took it instinctively, but felt Djir at your back subtly pulling.

“Come. We'll talk about this when we return.”

You stared at her. “You're going to refuse a good offer because of me? Just because of me?” People were beginning to stare and Fiona was starting to notice their stares, but you did not care.
“You could have told me and given me the choice and I could have refused. He says that he would honor that.”

“He's LYING.” Fiona stated angrily.

“What if he isn't?”

“Well-”

“What if he isn't? I could choose and-”

“And ruin us!?” She screamed back at you. It was her turn to lose control.
“What? You think you can 'choose?' When have you EVER made the right choice for us? Has that ever happened?”

“What? I don't- I don't understand. What are you talking about Fiona?”

She held her head in her hands, a look of regret washing briefly over her before she steadied her breathing and collected herself. She reached forward and took your wrist tightly.
“We're going. That's all it is, Fine. We're going. I am getting you out of this because that is what you NEED me to do for you, apparently.”

That hurt you. “Fiona...” She began pulling you away. Djir released you, however as you were being pulled he leaned down and whispered.

“I will back you staying or leaving. Stay as long as you like... Some time apart may be good for you both.” Djir stopped following and let you go. He leaned back and folded his hands behind his back. He observed you. You were equidistant between the two of them.

Files

Comments

LancelotDeLuLac

Bro, our character is actually braindead sometimes.

WhiteGrayFox

No matter how how you look at it, Fin is too malleable, he does act like all those girls in different stories. “I’m gonna choose for myself and suck Malik’s cook, you will not be choosing for me!”

WhiteGrayFox

Fiona does not except Fin to make right choices but is she even wrong? An example would be Teuta she is a cutie slut, but she hurts Fin when she is not even aware of it. On the other hand, Dark Elf is a known good pick for Hero.

WhiteGrayFox

It’s obvious that Fiona cares great deal for Fin, we could see it last chapter with her reaction to Cyyani’s Insult towards Fin even if it was deserved, and insult itself was not that big of a deal. Dijir wants Finn for himself which is fine, but it should not be on his terms but Fionas/Expedition, as I said earlier it would be much more interesting for Finn and Dijir to play with the rest of the group.

WhiteGrayFox

I think he means that Finn acts similar to Jenne from original Hero during Circus arc, Hero trying to take care of her was seen by her as him undermining her independence which lead to her having a rapport with Malik, part of it was thanks to Malik sorcery but state of mind was very similar.

Roland Taranis

I can wholeheartedly agree the relationship with Teuta took a turn for the worst. Mostly because she didn't even realize what she was doing was against Fin's feeling, and worse, after he made his viewpoint clear she went away and continue with it regardless. But up to that point anything was fair game. And discarding a possibility just because someone tells you to, despite your own wishes, is not the way to go. The whole point was to free Teuta so that she makes her own choice. She did, and she chose very wrong. As such, I'd very much like some karmic justice about it, like Teuta doesn't come back a night, Fin & Jeane are alone, they get closer... And ultimately Teuta loses Fin's affection.

Roland Taranis

My main problem with Fiona is that while she cares a great deal for Fin, is he really anything else than her most prized trophy male at that point ? You can care very much about a pet after all... Fin ultimately is a backdrop in his own story because his sister robs him of every choice under the guise that hers are the reasonnable ones, but she will bend them to ultimately get herself on top, like killing Sammead. So I think it's time to stop being reasonnable. Otherwise that story will need to be renamed "Fiona's Quest and her puppet brother"

Roland Taranis

Very good example, and I'll point to you the few key differences that proves that the situation is very wrong. We can agree based on their surface behavior that Fin would be Jeane, Fiona would be Hero and Djir would kinda be Malik. But first, did you find Jeane's behavior "braindead" ? Malik was a master manipulator, and as such every point he made was very much reasonnable, with just a touch of emotion magic to sow some discord and enable him enough space to work as the voice of reason. The only problem with Malik was his end goal, not his arguments. Second, Jeane wasn't THE Turais, the only person whose choices sculpts the streams of fate. She was there to offer support when needed but she wasn't the axis of the story. To have Fin be in the same spot is hardproof that the situation is very wrong. And we have no idea of the genuineness of Djir's intention. Most likely he would control or at the very best "orient" Fin in some capacity, but then is it different than Fiona ? And there exist a chance, since Djir was so enamored with Hero back then that he genuinely wants to see Fin spread his wings.

Roland Taranis

Worst case scenario and everyone follow this path of submissiveness, this story will become a masterclass on how someone can take control of the only existence able to shape destiny.

LancelotDeLuLac

Hard disagree on the last points. Every story involving this character except for evil overlord routes has Fin as the backdrop for whichever character is pulling their leash. Understandable considering it’s a CYOA story, but Fin in all variations has only existed as an agent of another characters manipulations it’s just a preference of who the voters wanted to be the one to hold the leash at the time. It’s why I like some of the other stories a little bit more right now because there the characters are actually moving of their own initiative not being led along by whichever manipulator is the fan favorite atm.

Roland Taranis

You're not wrong, Hero or whatever always was guided down the paths by others, like Kara. But even then, there was enough space for the MC to exert his will (through us), so much so that all secondary characters were killed at the base of the Horn with a single bad decision. Space that is totally absent here. And I have hope that Fin could retake the leash from whoever's hand, otherwise this story isn't worth following.

WhiteGrayFox

Original Hero was his own man, flawed but he was mostly in control. Finn here is relegating some of his own agency when it comes to highest tier decisions to Fiona but I do believe that this maybe actually the safe route, Fiona with her being ultra assertive has highest chance of not getting Herself and Finn Wintered, I do believe that Finn with his lose of some agency can focus on his own Orbiters and change things in indirect way. I don’t think Finn needs to do statecraft to be in control of his life.

Roland Taranis

I honestly don't think Fin let go of his own agency, WE had him do it, and it's not too late to have him retake control of his own life. You want to keep Fiona safe ? Since refusing Djir's proposal is gonna lead to war, have you considered the not insignificant risk of her getting captured or even killed ? And since Fiona pretty much spit in the face of Djir, you can throw goodwill out the window (remember how Teuta finished in the original timeline). Focus on his own orbiters ? Answer me these questions : How long 'till Fiona takes physical action ensuring Fin & Teuta don't meet anymore ? How long 'till Fiona does something that will irks Jeane so much she won't keep quiet about it ? And with the fall from grace, she will be treated the same as Teuta. How long 'till under pretense that Fin can't take care of himself, she puts him in a cage, gilded or otherwise ? No involvement in statecraft ? Fin is a royal ! Unless he cuts all ties he is involved in statecraft wever he wants it or not. And in these circles there's one rule : If you don't take decisions, someone will take the decisions for you without your approval.

WhiteGrayFox

I fully disagree just because you are not a ruler of a country does not mean you have no agency, the idea that Fiona if let loose(which she is since she decided to kill Sam) will lead to a bad outcome is a conjecture, the only way Dijir can survive against Fiona is if Fin betrays her, I think Winter already established that Hero is a Nuclear option in her world and there are two of them, while Gnolls did nothing impressive in any timeline so I don’t believe that they are any danger to the expedition. I disagree that Fin is a Royal, he is a brother of a Usurper Queen and a Consort of an ex Queen, his right to do any statecraft starts and ends by giving an advice if asked. There is no reason to believe that Fiona will hurt Finn by taking away Teuta from Finn as far as I understand her character, she will be mad but she won’t hurt Finn or any of his friends, especially when he did not even lied to her, technically he does do stuff with Jeanne, Fiona established in port city that she does not care whom does Finn fuck anyway. To conclude Finn will always have agency over his life, he does not need to decide what happens in their own faction (there are still bigger fishes on this expedition) Every decision Fiona made was right and as far as I’m aware in this universe If you are not Sam you are getting Sammead right now Fiona is Sam, and Finn is a dumbo femboy, If we Sabotage Fiona we will have a spineless Finn and Fiona who will doubt herself, and this will be a one way ticket to Bad End. After seeing Fiona ruthless assertiveness there is no way you are gonna convince me that sabotage of her and letting Finn make decisions will have any positive effect’s Finn is a prey in this universe and right now he needs to attach himself to someone to be safe, I doubt Dijir will be safer than Fiona, we can have Dijir just after he is conquered and will have less of a advantage over everyone else, he will become part of the Faction like Cyanni or Teuta.

Roland Taranis

There are a lot of detailed points in your last argumentation, I want to thank you for allowing me to try and understand ^_^ -First of all, I discovered the NTVerse only a couple of weeks ago. I've been catching up as fast as I can. I've finished the original NTR Quest and prioritized some "standalone" works but I barely began reading the NT Raider/Ranger story. I do not know who Winter is, or what information they gave us. If an explanation can be done without too much spoilers, please explain to me. -I am not as confident as you are the Gnolls are teethless. I honestly think it's not they had little impact in the timelines I know, it is more that the MC's action nipped their influence in the bud. A small work I read stated that the Gnolls, along with Wolves and Minotaurs are in a physical league of their own (Incarnates). And when they are organized on top, they are a force to be reckonned with (again, the end of Teuta in the original timeline). And Djir is extraordinarily competent, both in brain and brawns. The Anayub's military being in piss poor shape on top, I think victory is far from guaranteed. -I think Fin's family is extremely influential from even before the expedition, even though it has never been stated explicitely. Do you think Marrien could easily be involved with let alone have influence around what is essentially heads of states relatives without them taking charge if she was some random nobody ? Sure, a huge part of the expedition has been acting independently, but this goes beyond an isolated Hero's family. For a faction of 3, they carry as much, if not more weight than other factions dozens strong. -I want to make things clear. I'm am not arguing opposing Fiona because I hate her, I do it because I like her. I like her determined decisiveness, but she isn't the character we directly control. And I think we are actually doing a disservice to her by blindly folding before her. Her behavior slowly shifted along the way, from steadfast protector of her family to what could easily become a Dark Lord (Lady?). The care she has for Fin will never disappear, but it already has changed shape. She doesn't value his opinion anymore, she still hasn't confided in Fin she is the one to have killed Sammead and she doesn't explain the reason behind her decisions anymore. She has no empathy towards the Anayub, the people she rules over. She had Innad totally submit right at the time where the possibility of something more balanced could have been realized. She relishes in the absolute power she has been given. All because Fin refused to grow to her level, to give her boundaries she shouldn't cross, to be the twin brother he should be and not a pet to be told what to do and not do. She is currently treading a very dark path, a path of tyranny to all, because there is no counterforce. I think Fin's growth could have been initiated way more safely if we had acted earlier, but we didn't. By folding up till now, we have been spared the sting for awhile, but I think the more we wait the harder the fall will be, either for Fin or her. There is no safe story worth telling after all.

WhiteGrayFox

Ok, first of all I enjoy having a discussion about this story, so I hope you don’t read any of my comments as aggressive or whiny, I have lots of trouble writing in coherent English let alone being able to convey my feelings! 1. When I say Winter this is just shortening of TVWintergreen. 2. All of beast-folk including Aniubians are physically much stronger than humans just pike Gnolls, yet it does not seem to have any substantial weight. It’s possible that this is one of the concept’s that Winter decided to get rid off, or may not have too much of a meaningfulness anymore. I’m certain that Gnolls are not that much dangerous than Aniubians were to the Expedition. There are no Country Stats so we have to assume, I actually made a big fuss about them being able to do anything to Anyiufar on Discord and PMs but right now as far as I understand position of Gnolls and expedition there is no reason to believe that there is any danger coming from war on Gnolls. 2. This is a point that I myself brought to Winter, So Marren represents Cheshire in this universe it’s Something akin to Burgundy when it comes to power, it was a reasonably powerful Kingdom in Western Europe but still lacking compared to England, France, Castile. Marrien and her children as far as I’m aware is not noble Marrien was/is a merchant she is a manager of this expedition she does not believe as having a faction or anything like that, her goal is for successful expedition which is finding her Husband and riches. Actually if I remember correctly a lot of her status and position had also to do with Sam supporting her. It’s Fiona that think of the 3 as a Faction with goals and interests, yes they are influential for their size but not in absolute terms, there is a Ambassador of Eastern Empire, Queen Jadwa and others, Finn and Fiona are not the only Heros on this expedition either. Fiona was able to secure her own Queendom/Kingdom through her own cunning which is very impressive but at the end of the day they are not as influential, they have a lot of TV time but I do believe that in the future it will be presented more clearly, right now the expedition exist just because Eastern Faction decided to pay Orrans for staying after Sam got gutted. 3. I like both Fiona and Fin but we as Vox Populi turned blank Finn into passive weak Finn, remember if Finn was the one with full authority Marrien would enslave herself to Sam, at this point. Finn is enamoured with Teuta, but he does not have enough spine to tell her not to suck random dicks because this hurts him, Teuta was literally giving him cummy kisses after a train of marines run through her mouth, and he was unable to voice any of his concerns. Now do you think that Finn is someone we should let and make decisions of National Importance? Do you think that Dijir will not turn Finn into Submissive Petboy? He may teach him how to be competent ruler, but it would be a skill like mathematics, I doubt that he will make him assertive, he will be just a very competent onahole for Dijir. How do you think Fiona will react to losing Finn? Do you believe she will be reasonable? She really loves her family over anything as far as Im concerned. She could batshit crazy or get depressed there is no middle ground. Finn is submitting to his sister but I believe it would be for everyone good, Fiona being on very Dark Path is way overblown until she won’t start experimenting on her companions I would say she is on the Warlord path, I don’t think her being a top dog in the faction will have any destructive effects. I believe that the worst thing we could do right now is to destroy what we built when it comes to Fionas assertiveness, and trying to build up Finns dominance, it’s late for it, if we do it now we will destroy both of them, Winter said that we with our decisions we create and influence personalities. We went with submissive/passive path for a long time trying to rip it apart right now will not have any good results I’m afraid. Also Fiona becoming a Dark Lady would actually be one of the ways for them to survive this expedition. In NTVerse power and dominance defend you from the biggest danger and that danger is being broken by a dick attached to unsavoury ugly bastard haha. Finn can still influence Fiona but it would more like how would a wife of roman emperor advice her husband or having some kind of influence with him. We don’t need Finn to play first violin if we do we are all doomed. On the last note, Finn does know that Fiona killed Sam you must have missed this I think.

Tanya Wormald

To answer the first question, Beastfolk are still marginally stronger than Humans and Incarnate Beastfolk (Gnolls, Wolves, etc) are marginally stronger than Beastfolk. The way I conceptualize it now is that a beastfolk will naturally reach the level of strength that a human would through moderate training, and then will be able to go further with even more training and Gnolls also have that advantage, just more and are mechanically similar to large creatures in roleplaying games that get bonuses based on size. I think that the advantage of Beastfolk may have been downplayed due to Aniyub's position of weakness. Possible a bit too much but we will have to see. Make no mistake Gnolls are powerhouse creatures.

WhiteGrayFox

Ok, but even then if they are 2tiers higher I don’t think it’s enough for them to be a scary prospect? I just don’t think of them as dangerous, Trysk is dominated by humans even if they are weaker both than beastkind and incernates so maybe this is why I feel like it? And there is still prospect of two heros being able to do a hit job on Dijir, the only time we have seen show any physical strength is when he destroyed Teuta which does not tell us much, there is also Cyyani which is not hero level but she seems to be pretty strong, we have Teuta as a support with very strong magic thanks to all dicks that have been sucked, and Jennie who is still one of the best magicians in Tyrsk so I don’t feel intimidated by Dijir and his henchmen.

Roland Taranis

Sorry everyone, I was busy and I couldn't flawlessly insert myself in the conversation in time. Same here brother, I might come as passionate at best or desperate at worst but never do I want to come as aggressive. Excuse some of my clumsiness, debating ideas and even more making myself the devil's advocate is not an exercise I'm familiar with. As such I want to offer apologies to everyone for the line comparing people to Sammead in an earlier comment, it was a piss poor argument and served no purpose beyond needless aggravation, so I removed it. I hear your points brother, and I will address them as I go but I want to emphasize one thing, the big picture. In essence, I'm not advocating for Djir. If I had all the choices imaginable he would not be on top of my list. To me, the 2 choices we have this week are "The Bad Choice" & "The Worst Choice". I think it's way too late, the good ships have already sailed. And you might be very right, maybe Djir won't make things right, but my guts tell me that waiting to retake agency from Fiona will lead to disaster of untold proportions. I feel like a man falling from a tree, grasping at every branch that comes in arm's length to slow down the fall, even the rotten ones, before we hit the ground. And the problem is that the alternatives will require way too much time, too much work and are not guaranteed to work. Fiona loves her family, no questions asked. I'd even say it's the only thing keeping her afloat. But there's one thing her family do not get from her anymore : Respect. Merianne lost Fiona's respect when she began to fold to Sammead. The last remnants of her authority were used for the arranged marriage, which Fiona was already okay with. Fin lost Fiona's respect because he behaved like a lost puppy in need of care, care she provided. The problem is Fiona is overly protective, and since she can't respect either of us, she would protect us against everything, even ourselves. So she won't heed our words anymore. The only "soft" way to regain her respect I can envision would be at the very least to be the equal of Cyanni, if not outshine her in every way. Because right now Cyanni is the only person Fiona has a modicum of respect for. Your points about "factions" are absolutely correct (thank you very much for reminding me about all the factions that are mostly off-screen). But I can't remember why we went this way. I think we went off track about "agency" and what it means. It is not making decisions for Nations, it is making decisions for yourself. And I'd like to provide a point as to why I think it is crucial to retake that power from Fiona as soon as possible. After asking Winter (still can't believe I didn't make the connection myself, I feel dumb sometimes) for her permission, I'm going to use uncut quotes from a Discord PM conversation we had. Winter :"Also the impact of the hero@in this story is not the instant win for characters that it was in quest, because he is split in two in a sense" Winter :"There are wonky things going on with quite a few characters. Not saying what it is😎" Here is my deductions and theories. All stories where choices are left to vote involve a Turais, with the exception of Bad End Guide where Maggie/Evelyn gets the personal backing of a Primal, The Writer. I think both Fiona & Fin are a single Turais, being twins and all. Fiona would be the force that can shape destiny (she killed Sammead!), while Fin, backed by us voters, would be the compass with which to direct this force. And we have left her unattended for way too long. Left directionless, she is ever so slightly taking a wrong turn, to the point that she won't listen to us. We might steer her back before she gets on a collision course with destiny, but we need to act decisively and fast. And whatever we choose, it won't be painless anymore. Now the case for Djir. First of all I didn't read the Anayub mini-serie yet, so if you think there are informations there that could enlighten or undermine my arguments, feel free to add. Don't mistake my thoughts, he is a friggin all or nothing, but I'm getting desperate as I told you. Ultimately I cannot guarantee anything, he is the ultimate wildcard. But there are a few hints that would make me think he is worth the risk, and he is much more nuanced than would initially appear. Is he going to take a chance at sex with us ? Even romance if we let him ? Absolutely, be ready for it (I personally don't like gay content, for what it's worth). Will he make us his mindless fucktoy ? Not sure at all. Despite the obvious differences, that Djir being much more collected than the one we know from Quest, I'm still going to try and find behavioral patterns (and maybe the wonky things Winter talked about extend to him, maybe he is the same Djir from Quest that managed after a while to jump timelines, he is far from home after all). He used Heilan in the sole purpose of getting to us, and he made it very clear even to her. I think he dominated her because this was the tool he was given to achieve his goal in the most efficient way possible. That would be the worst case scenario in Odyssey, Djir thinking of Fin as a way to get to Fiona, but we might be past that already since he showed interest in the Hero from the very beginning. Other quotes, same rules. Winter :"The precedent set through most of the story is that the hero triggers a bad end through surrendering their agency. So it is possible to ‘lose’ in that way. In fact it’s the only way to lose. Though I won’t suggest one way or another if that’s the case here." Winter :"Well, if there’s a case where he loses his agency but external actors still have ‘moves’ then it’s another matter." Another set, with my own uncut quotes for context. Me :"And I am giving away a lot of energy debating because I've got hope. Take the last vote. Between blindly obeying Fiona and seeking Djir, Djir won..." Winter :"I think that choice was very important. I have a lot@of@fun things coming up regardless of which is picked." Here is another theory of mine. By seeking Djir, he recognized the smoldering ember of will in Fin, and even if we fold to Fiona, he might organize a kidnapping to "set us free". The war that would follow would be cataclysmic. And Fiona would play right into his hand. A pure win-win situation on his part. The feeling I have about him is that of a monstrous chess player. He doesn't need to hide anything, all pieces on the board. He knows he is better than you in every way, and he is right. But he will respect your will. Do you think Hero could have fought Djir off when he proposed the Pledge if he decided not to listen ? Kara, the only companion that would be able to go toe to toe against him, was out at the time, as a reminder. And the love confession after the war was averted felt purely genuine. With the best of hope, he recognized the same potential in Fin as he did the Hero back then. The best relationship we could have with him that I could envision would be alike an ancient greek mentorship, down to the expected sex with the mentor. I've gone full analysis. I'm tired. Brain not working anymore.

Roland Taranis

Well, even with brain not working anymore, still got things to say. Overlooked a few of your points that I'd like to address. Pardon me, structuring my own argumentation was hard enough ^^' I did see that Fin knows that Fiona killed Sammead, but neither came clean to the other about it. Finn, as the spineless bastard he is, closed his mouth shut, even to her, even when they are alone. Surefire way to lose respect from her, not having the balls to get involved one way or the other. Fiona do not trust Fin with what happened, so she blissfully keep him in the dark, trying to protect him. But I think it's eating her from inside. Teuta is a friggin lost cause. Can't wait for the karmic justice to get to her, preferably once Fin finally grows a spine. I think it goes way beyond the dominant/submissive thing. I think we could be, and even should be, both dominant. Because I think Fiona isn't being dominant right now, she pretends. A dominance of desperation because the very well-being of her family rests on her shoulders, and she will be the wall and the spikes if need be. But she is alone. Because Fin refuses to take his place at her side. Right now he doesn't even deserve to be her support. Because when the proverbial shit will hit the fan, and it will mark my words, Fiona will need all the support she can get. And for that to happen we need to stand, if not as tall as her, close enough. She will need a twin brother, not an emotional support golden retriever. The biggest tragedy I can foresee is this. By trying with all your might to protect Fiona, those votes will ultimately be her downfall and everything you want to prevent from happening will precisely happen because of it. I hope that when the time comes you will be able to forgive me for the "I told you so" that I will post in the comments, brother.

WhiteGrayFox

To me a lot of this is just a conjecture, based on Winter playing with Meta Story in her stories. I could argue that saying Fiona is not truly dominant is baseless especially when she took Innaid and turned him into her pet with no prompt nor this being some kind of last resort. I do understand that letting go of some if his agency may be a dangerous ride, but I believe there is an interesting idea of cheating fate, if Finn never has to choose high tier decision, but can focus on smaller things we can keep him safe, my decisions are based around things I have seen him do, he is stupid, spineless, and cute I want to protect him from himself, I think he and Fiona are perfect siblings there is a clear hierarchy and there is still respect, you said that she lost respect for mom yet I can’t think of any evidence of this being true since there was no interaction between the two after Sam. She respects Finn enough to reprimand our favourite Misandrist onboard for insulting him. She does not take his voting weight from him when it comes to Statecraft after he publicly embarrassed himself with the proposition to do nothing and hope for the best. For me it was analogous to me breaking an arm and people around advising me to either go call an ambulance(of course me not living in US and getting bankrupt from it haha) and someone else proposing to drive me herself so it will be faster. And here comes Finn and his advice being ohh just take painkillers and walk it off maybe. After this I’m not taking his suggestions concerning health anymore but even then there are still things where his input maybe valuable for example how is it having your crush fucking and sucking every dick of this expedition.

WhiteGrayFox

At the end of the day results are what is important to me, of all the other Heros those two are doing best, I believe that staying apart will be far more destructive than any war with Dijir. Fiona has an advisor at least for this act, and it’s Cyyani, so it’s not like she is on power trip disregarding everyone. When it comes to Meta there is to many variables to accurately make decisions based on it, but if I had I would argue that we should build Fiona into becoming the dominant force that she is becoming even if we have to sacrifice some aspects of Finn to achieve that, Finn can save himself by attaching himself to Fiona, he is still powerful as much as she is so his support will always be valuable, but he is way to passive and submissive to be independent even if Dijir is a good actor the next Ugly Bastard probably won’t, There is an Argument that you don’t won’t to choose between Fin and Fiona but in meta sense you are doing what Finn was doing the whole journey, sitting on the fence, we could interpret it as such, but meta is something of a wildcard in my opinion. Also I don’t respect Finn when it comes to his morality, is he even worth saving? When it came to colonising Ainyufar he decided to look the other way, OG Hero would never do such a thing, what Finn actually did that is worth saving? How about him fucking Innaid mom in front of him after she got Sammead? Every time there is an important decision he disappoints every time there is a moral decision he also disappoints, he is not even doing the dark path run he just closes his eyes and hopes for the best. Why would we ever want him to lead this Expedition unless we wanna farm bad ends? I don’t want to protect Fiona I want her to ascend, she demonstrated an ability to be an amazing Heroine, I want to protect Finn because I don’t believe in him at all, his only value is being an emotional support with fighting skills, but then again has he ever done anything for Fiona out of care? Maybe it would be better to sell him to Dijir and have Fiona be the MC just like what happend to [Spoiler] I would be fine with both choices truthfully. We can save Fiona when we notice that she indeed takes the path of darkness but right now I can’t see it.

Roland Taranis

You hint that at some point in a story I haven't read there's a switch of protagonist (the character we decide the choices for) ? If so, yeah, I'd very much like us to switch to Fiona. You question Fin's morality. This question is a nonsense, Fin is our puppet, our semi sentient AI that define itself from a handful of pertinent commands. We decided for him not to do anything. We decided for him to surrender Innad, nipping any chance of a change within Anayub in the bud. We had him fold again when he was the voice of reason and suggested to avoid the Gnolls by boat. I'd question Our morality instead, for it is the force that lead us to this situation. You are very much entitled to think that you want to keep our protagonist in his sorry state, and to think that agreeing to everything Fiona says will keep her safe. I made myself clear, I think we're going to crash and burn. I tried to share with you what I can discern in the grander picture but you want cold hard facts and nothing beyond minor extrapolation, so let's do it. Recap : 2 choices before us. 1) Go with Djir, spend some time apart Fiona, avoid a war with the Gnolls 2) Fold to Fiona, war with the Gnolls incoming I think I extensively discussed case 1) so I won't go into more details. Case 2). The war. Let me tell you something, my friend, you are grossly underestimating the Gnolls, both in raw power and tactical acumen. And a handful of competent characters won't weight too much in the balance when armies are involved. And I don't think our party is very competent. If a single mage, however competent, could turn the tide of a full-scale war by themselves, that would be a known fact. Sure Jeane would pull her weight, without a doubt, but don't expect miracles. I've got no idea if Teuta is able to do anything, she was mainly here to serve as "moral" support, if you catch my meaning. The Anayub military is in bad shape. They were being crushed by the Gnolls and weren't finished for the sole reason not to over extend. That was before the turmoil of the change of Queen. And Cyyani was such a lazy, haughty piece of such wonderful advice that war is the evident answer. Of course. And she follows Fiona for now, but if for whatever reason Fiona cracked ? Do you think her loyalty is absolute ? And the best part. Fiona & Fin. I'd barely trust Fin with a knife right now, so do you think he'd pull more weight than Jeane ? And Fiona is very competent, but far from outstanding. She should win a good number of duels, but more ?... And for now she has payed no mind to "her" country. She doesn't know how to direct armies, and worse she doesn't care about the soldiers. And that is if the war goes as planned. A straight mano e mano. I think Fiona is ill prepared to deal with underhanded schemes. The only thing she did is isolate and murder a man that wasn't ready to defend himself amidst a great deal of confusion. Honestly, I think this will be the last one for me. My goal in debating here on Patreon was after all to try and steer as many votes as I could, not to convince you particularly. I have detailed many arguments that could total more than the chapter itself, and I feel like I'm beginning to repeat myself. I've just realized that, in the end, most voters do not think things through. They fold, just like Fin do, as soon as Fiona is involved. And it is their right and I've got no choice but to follow the Vox Populi. I'll be there, my friend, on the sidelines, with some popcorn, when the result of the votes make this ship of hope and dreams crash and burn.