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Sacred Symbols, Episode 338 | Naughty Dog Derangement Syndrome (Video) (Patreon)

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2024-12-20 17:01:03
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Naughty Dog Derangement Syndrome | Sacred Symbols, Episode 338

The holidays draw ever-nearer, making this our final recording of 2024. (Fear not, though: As tradition dictates, episodes will continue uninterrupted throughout the break, and indeed, everything is already in the can!) Not surprisingly, the news is a little light this time of year, though there are some interesting tidbits to pick up on. For starters, we take a look at two titles shown at The Game Awards that we skipped over last week, in the form of Crimson Desert and Midnight Murder Club, the latter a second party, Sony-published offering. We also delve into Mark Cerny's recent PS5 Pro technical presentation, wade through the (now rectified) drama surrounding Helldivers 2's exciting Killzone crossover, analyze whether the upcoming sci-fi RPG Exodus has the potential to be the true next Mass Effect, and more. But at the end of our show, we replace our typical six questions about random topics with six questions about something more than 50 of you wrote in about on the most recent thread. The topic at hand is obviously Intergalactic: The Heretic Prophet, Naughty Dog's upcoming PS5 exclusive. So many wrote in, in fact, that it felt disingenuous to ignore all of the noise. So instead, let's dive way deeper. What should PlayStation's next move be when it comes to rolling out this new product? Could the game flop on the market, either outright or by Naughty Dog's lofty standards? Do the masses suffer from some combination of Naughty Dog and Neil Druckmann Derangement Syndrome? And what does all of this insanity mean for The Last of Us: Part III... if anything at all? Follow the hosts! Colin: https://x.com/longislandviper Chris: https://x.com/ChrisRGun Dustin: https://x.com/DustinCanFly A new episode of Sacred Symbols: A PlayStation Podcast launches each Friday morning. To receive instant access, as well as other perks, please support the show on: https://www.patreon.com/LastStandMedia Timestamps: 0:00:00 - Intro 0:20:37 - Tri Breaker is out now! 0:33:46 - What gives us the right? 0:36:50 - Changes for LSM in 2025 0:46:09 - Gooning over the landlady 0:54:01 - Jurassic: The Hunted 0:56:00 - Chis = Smeargle 1:01:47 - New Astro Bot level 1:06:54 - Game Awards clarifications 1:15:28 - new Mark Cerny ASMR video 1:20:12 - Helldivers 2 x Killzone is real 1:31:18 - Exodus could be the next Mass Effect? 1:40:09 - Secret Level renewed 1:46:05 - Please don't make FF7 NSFW mods 1:49:06 - More Tales of remasters are coming 1:52:33 - What We're Playing 2:09:50 - Sony has bought an additional 8% of Kadokawa 2:21:18 - Circana November data 2:30:44 - Will Intergalactic flop due to the early reaction? 2:40:36 - Naughty Dog derangement 2:55:24 - Neil Druckmann derangement 3:11:16 - What will Sony's strategy be around the game? 3:20:41 - PlayStation and female characters 3:27:16 - When will we get The Last of Us Part 3?

Comments

four24twenty

Merry Christmas to all you Sacred listeners out there. Peace and Love.

Casey Cieslikowski

Colin’s Naughty Dog defense is going to be insufferable lol.

MJ SKA BOI

Greatest title in the podcast’s history

Walker Simmons

Intergalactic will probably be the most impressive technical PS5 showcase and have industry leading graphics, animation, gameplay, acting etc but will get so much hate from certain parts of Twitter 🤷

TreyDogg

Its also possible that Intergalactic is'nt good. Even if you think "theres a 0% chance it flops" and Sony pushes the shit out of it. Why isnt that even a possibility in your mind. Studios fuck up sometimes

Zachariah Mitten
>>158868654

I mean most people are Luke warm on TLOU2. Colin the only one at Last Stand that loves it. Most other people are very mixed on it.

George Tidwell

Why can’t they address the idea that a lot of people just don’t like women always being portrayed as ultra masculine, especially in grounded story games. It’s one thing in something like stellar blade, but another in a grounded serious story. Instead they spend 40 min talking about tlou2 story decisions or some idiots upset because Jordan isn’t hot. Scared crew needs to address this.

Cincinnatus

The only Naughty Dog game I've ever finished was Uncharted: Drake's Fortune. I tried The Last of Us on three separate occasions and never made it passed the second hour. I just do not think I'm the right audience.

Andrew

I find modern storytelling very corny when a fellow whyte does the "lets tell the narrative from a POC". If you had a blasian writing this story the common ad hominem attack of "everyone who doesn't like Naughty Dog is a racist incel chud" might be possible. I just find most modern storytelling to be overly feminine and they attempt to mask this with a Self-Help "How To Unfuck Your Brain" reddit masculinity that they overlay onto the female characters. Contrast this with Alien, Akira, and John Carpeneter movies where the female characters feel grounded and don't fall into the tropes of Millenial Writing.

Kasual7

Love the thumbnail!

Jason
>>158875533

@Sketch_MGetch -- No he doesn't. Don't tell him what to do, fuhrer. He's allowed to express his likes and dislikes and so is everyone else. That's it. Disagree? Fine. But he may have a point here, and you don't get to just say "no" and TELL someone what they need to do. Do better.

George Tidwell
>>158875533

I say this as someone who absolutely loves naughty dog because I think naughty dog is a really talented bunch in so many ways. From the gameplay to the production value to the acting, it’s always really solid. But as someone with a more traditional socially conservative worldview this type of thing is so disappointing to see. I criticize it so harshly because I want so badly for it to be great. Alas it probably won’t be though….

Sketch_MGetch
>>158875533

That’s for providing context. I can see with your background why you feel the way you do. There are SO many games with characters that appeal to so many different people so when I see one that gives me a major reaction I see it as a cause for reflection. Just the way I see it

Cody

After watching this I think people need to remember that art is subjective. Everyone has their favorite videogame, tv, book, ex.. It's okay to not like something. It's also okay to not like something that someone else does. I loved the first last of us game and I was really disappointed with part 2. It's okay that I didn't like it. I didn't like Abby and several story elements. I'm happy for those of you that did enjoy it. I'm sure some people are going to love intergalactic and I hope they do. I don't plan playing yet. I'll wait until I read a few reviews and see some gameplay. I really don't like the design of the main character. I think she kind of ugly. I have liked naughty dogs female characters in past like Elena and Chole from uncharted. That's my opinion and if you like the design, cool I hope you enjoy it. For now its pass for me personally and their are lots of other great game to play that have better looking main characters than this.

italia

The majority of the hate Neal gets is from salty Xbox fans. It’s not just Neal. It’s anything PlayStation does.

Gonçalo Ferreira

Always hurts my soul listening to TLOUII talk. Gameplay or story, but definitely the story puts me in disbelief mode almost, it’s hard to listen to really poor criticism. The thing about a long running podcast is also that we get to know the tastes of the hosts, listening to Chris criticize narrative structure for example is excruciating like obviously it’s much easier to destroy than to rebuild so the suggested angle can’t be more appealing on a narrative sense. That said, great talk. And yeah clearly the backlash comes down to squares that can’t go over their father figure not being the hero of the story. The online discourse is pretty clear about what the problem is, downright incels. Mind you I’m not talking about people who didn’t enjoy it, or would rather have seen it go a different way, I’m talking about the vitriol, the people who got so mad that to this day they don’t let go.

Morgan
>>158875533

It's ok if it's not for you! We all have different tastes in media! I think this will be a mainstream hit honestly, but we'll have to wait and see how it shakes out.

Chris Croteau
>>158877713

Right there with you. Grew up in the 90s and the new age cinematic, narrative driven games just aren't hooking me. Especially the darker ones with modern narrative tropes

Miracle Peach

I only say this for context, but I’m a family medicine practitioner and Independent, politically. I try to genuinely process things through a lens of reason and objectivity. I think Colin is missing a big opportunity to have a necessary and important conversation never-before had in the mainstream video game space. I’ve gone between really liking Neil to being frustrated by him at times. Never vitriol. Ellie is one of my top 5 game characters of all time. For me, I’ve noticed that Neil is starting to turn me off with some consistent patterns I’m observing. (Tloup2 Spoiler) I overall respect and like TLoUp2 and have played it twice, but Joel’s death felt cruel. I can’t think of a main, beloved character ever being killed in such an absolutely brutal manner. I could be wrong, but to me it almost felt like there was a hatred from the writers to kill him in that manner. Abby was written unlikable IMO, which is impressive considering her legendary voice actress. After I did the research, I support adult—though not pediatric—transgenderism (either way, who cares what adults do). I’ve supported homosexuality since before it was mainstream. Lev’s character involved a CHILD—mistake. And his story parts felt heavy handed, forced, predictable. I never got mad; rather, I felt a mild annoyance for these reasons. Still like, or even really like, the game. For the TLoU show, Neil changed Joel and Tommy from white men to Hispanic, Sarah to black, Tommy’s wife to black. Kept David the pervert as a white man. By itself, non-issue. But there are repeating patterns. In intergalactic, main character looks similar to Abby in masculine body type. Feels surprisingly redundant and samey. Her personality, from a scene ND specifically chose as a highlight to show, came off unlikable and boring to many. Only male characters seen are Indian and Hispanic. I only saw a short clip and didn’t care enough to look into it further, and I’m no expert on Anita Sarkeeshan, but the clip I saw involved Neil heaping praise on her. Maybe I’m mistaken, but the little I know of her suggests she has at least some views that are exaggerated, divisive, unreasonable, and/or extreme. I think Colin has even spoken negatively of her IIRC. I could be mistaken, but I believe ND (not Neil) tried to spin or suggest a gay relationship between Chloe and Nadine. Most people don’t care about gay relationships or characters, but doing it with a character that had been an established heterosexual character since 2009 feels forced in order to make a statement. This likely has contributed to more of a general Naughty Dog frustration. Intergalactic, in a bubble, would have a fraction of the frustration. But each individual choice by Neil and ND has added up. Lastly, and very important, Intergalactic comes as many people have grown generally exhausted by years of other unusual choices that have been repeatedly made in the video game and movie industry, including some involving historic franchises. People are tired of feeling like a statement is being made in their media; they just want to unwind and escape. If we’re keeping track, nearly all of Sony’s main characters are now female. How high is the male majority for hardcore gamers again? And Insomniac stated Miles is Spider-Man moving forward. Female characters now feel boring, rather than refreshing, at least when it comes to Sony’s narrative games. Factually and historically speaking, violence is done by men the overwhelming majority of the time. Not something to be proud of; reality nonetheless. This may be a minor detail, but it’s just another reason the high volume of female characters feels a bit forced and in the name of making a statement. I love female characters. Already mentioned Ellie, but Elena and Chloe are legends. Returnal is my #1 game in the past 5 years. People will always try to destroy or dismiss an argument like mine by hurling accusations of misogyny or racism or transgenderism or etc. Some people are motivated by these things, but I truly feel they are the minority. There are many people with valid and very reasonable frustrations who deserve to have their opinions heard—as long as done so respectively. Bottom line: No one deserves hatred and vitriol, certainly including Neil; but, there is something to people’s frustrations that needs to be talked through. We’re not talking just a small vocal minority; we’re talking hundreds of thousands of dislikes for Intergalactic within just a few days. If someone like Colin doesn’t try to invite civil discourse on this matter in a SS Plus or otherwise, this problem will only perpetuate and amplify.

nobody

I grew up with Jill Valentine and Clair Redfield.

Robert Young

changing settings to ultra fixed stuttering in helldivers for me

DongShnutz
>>158910197

This is too dismissive. Tlou2 has many issues. Not just story either. Many groups of people didnt like the game and its not just one group.

DongShnutz

Hello Sacreds. I have to push back from last week. I feel like Colin was very dismissive that people are skeptical over Intergalactic for unjust reasons. Tlou2 was extremely divisive. Sitting at a 56 on Metacritic userscore- this is not a game that was universally lauded by the audience. I myself am politically moderate. Im ok listening to others opinions in games as long as its unobtrusive and the rest of the package is great. TLOU2 had more issues than just its in your face liberal tendencies. I personally disliked it because the story was abhorrent, the game is too long and bloated, and character motivations were out of line. Woke crap aside which is abundant in the game, its got other issues. I can compliment the things it did right. It did have fun gameplay and was a technical marvel, but i personally never want to play the game again because i absolutely hated the story to where it ruined the whole experience for me. Intergalactic is the followup to that and i think thats the reason me and many others are extremely cautious of the product that follows the abomination that was TLOU2.

Joe B

Dont think Colin had a shot at avoiding leaks even if he was still getting early access. Leaks hit late April and game released June 19th.

Salvador Pereira

I'm a simple person that hates Neil and I Click

SL
>>158993396

Well, there is one definition of 'simple' that certainly aligns with 😂

SL
>>158926981

"but Joel’s death felt cruel. I can’t think of a main, beloved character ever being killed in such an absolutely brutal manner. I could be wrong, but to me it almost felt like there was a hatred from the writers to kill him in that manner." It was intended to be cruel. Joel's death reflected the hatred Abby had for him. Nothing more. If you take that as some disrespect of a character with a grand legacy of one video game, that's on you, the audience, not the writers.

SL
>>158908360

I don't think most Xbox fans know who Neil Druckmann is.

SL
>>158899358

Does a main character have to be attractive for you to enjoy a game? That's kind of weird...

SL
>>158875533

Are women 'always' portrayed as ultra-masculine? No. Of course not. You're fixated on a relatively few examples of such because they conflict with your beliefs on how women SHOULD present and be presented to you.

SL

There's been this weird shift in the last decade or so where audiences feel a sense of ownership over characters and universes they had no hand in building, and only interacted with through consumption. "How could they do this to Joel?!" They could do this to Joel, because Joel is their creation and they can do whatever they hell they please with him in service of telling the stories they want to tell. Because they are the storytellers and you are the consumers. At some point, consumers started believing that their act of consumption made their opinions on the content meaningful. So when they yell into a void about how a writer or developer SHOULD create or write their games, and their bleeting is rightfully ignored, they are offended. Offense turns to anger, turns to vitriol. These people are best ignored until they realize their insignificance. They can either buy the game or not. Shrieking on the internet is not going to suddenly make the talent that makes these games give a shit about their entitled opinions. Neil Druckmann doesn't give them a second thought. I can't imagine spending my time bitching and attacking Insomniac for absolutely butchering the character of Venom in SpiderMan 2, because I can't imagine being entitled enough to believe that my opinion would matter to the people working their asses off to make the game and tell the story they want to make, simply because I bought and played their game.

Pan Ic

I dont like TLOU2 and the new Naughty game comes off as a parody of itself.

Greg Hadden
>>159009812

Totally agree, especially in this case giving Joel some grand death would be at complete odds with the rest of the world and themes they created with TLoU

Andrew
>>158926981

100%. As a millenial I truly believe our capacity for interpreting media has been influenced by quippy "how does this affect you personally"/ Jon Stewart "um...like who cares it's an Asian woman". There is a specific mold of character that the theater kids in media portray other races as that is unbelievably corny and stereotypical that shut-in games journalists believe represent all of society via commercials. All black women are Angela Davis, all frumpy white women are Tumblr Sociology majors, hispanics are Latinx yass queens. It just becomes redundant. If that's what Chris wants because he hates frickin MAGATS and Colin lacks a backbone to criticize anyone who has talked to him in the industry...that just highlights how low level thinking they possess. [Insert quippy response about umm actually Aliens Sigourney Weaver ummm actually].

Andrew
>>159009812

Lol do you not understand that studios self-select for theater kid ideology today? You think it's so stunning and brave to pay $70 for your heckin valid slop and just say "wow you made something...that is incredible". You clearly agree with the ideology and want no one to disagree. Sorry, bud. We don't want Globohomo self-hating narratives. "But it's actually introspective, its written by a Jewish man". Get off Reddit.

Andrew
>>158937026

But what if she was a blasian woman that hated patriarchy and capitalism in a game with sponsors? That would be so fucking epic

Cody
>>158899358

Yes actually. That’s why people originally started going to movies as a form of entertainment. So they could see beautiful actors and actresses . Look if you are going to have a female lead in your game let her look like a woman. I don’t understand why they are trying to make her look like man. It’s obvious to most of the fans don’t like this character and it’s Abby all over again. Games like Metroid, Tomb Raider, Bayonetta, Neir, all sold well because they had good looking women and action. There is no target audience for this game. 90% of gamers are men. Most men won’t play this game. The 10% of female players want a normal looking male or female to play as. My wife thinks she looks a like a dude. I just asked my wife would you rather play stellar blade or intergalactic based off the MC? And she said stellar blade. I asked why and she said why would I play an ugly woman?

Josh Gamez
>>159009812

Not to make yet another thing about Star Wars but that's one of the most insufferable things about Star Wars fandom on the Internet lol

MeatSpin11

Speaking of redzone, they just got rid of the 7-hour commercial free football slant. LSM might actually be the only place I can trust with no ads lol

Germanos

It is funny and also a bit frustrating to me how close the situations of Intergalactic and Concord are, when it comes to the social situation around them, and just now Colin is taking the hate speech against a game serious enough to have an hour segment about it. Shame, but maybe the covering of Intergalactic will help the title. I'm looking forward to it. Cannot wait to play it, however long it takes to wait for it.

Germanos

3:26:58 bravo Dustin :) 👏

Caleb Shelton

Dustin nearly hit the nail on the head regarding the discourse around Naughty Dog, but he didn't quite get there. The reason for the derangement of any property is the direct result of what Disney did to Star Wars. Fans have zero trust in companies these days. The character didn't offend me, but it is weird that all the big games from Sony have female protagonists. It's making an already same-y feeling of the PS games feel even more the same. Again, I don't care in the slightest and if I were Naughty Dog, I'd say fuck you, this is our vision. But, I can get the frustration. Diversity is meant to match the makeup of society and seeing all these characters be the same gender, race, sexuality, etc. has become as boring as it was when all characters were white men.

Gooch Gobbler
>>159009812

Proud to be a globohomo, that's a new slur I've never been called before. Neat. These Community Guidelines can't come soon enough

Seth
>>159110178

"The hate speech against the game" LOL. Are you using the term "Hate Speech" literally or referring to hatred for gay people and minorities?

Seth

Anybody giving Collin a hard time because his takes on the Intergalactic hate are bad just remember 1. He is good friends with Neil Druckman. 2. He is a dedicated and loyal friend. 3. Some of his most fond memories of games journalism and gaming in general stem from Naughty Dog. 4. He is a little stubborn at times. Just because Collin is wrong on this one doesn't mean he isn't one of the best games media personalities that exist. But goddamn I think this game is looking like it's going to be drenched in modern stink. We will see.

Seth
>>158877713

Thats because there were writers in the 90's. The last actual writer died somewhere between 2015 and 2020. Quite sad actually.

Cole Kinghorn

Yeah this is going to be a massive cognitive dissonance blind spot for Colin over the next few years because he is personal friends with Neil. It isn't more complicated than that. Anything can be overlooked once personal relationships come into play. Colin doesn't take endemic advertising and claims to be as distanced from Sony as possible but that doesn't really do much to stop the fanboying. Can't wait.

Mitchell Miller
>>159120728

God of War, Spider-Man, MLB The Show, and Astro Bot all have exclusively female protagonists? That’s wild…didn’t notice lol.

Austin Evans

Good Ep, I think my only issue with Intergalactic is that if it did not have the naughty dog logo in the trailer I would not have cared at all. The retro future genre feels slightly played out and nothing in the trailer differentiated it from similar stories in the same genre. But since it is naughty dog I am excited to see what they do. Their last game was quite boring to me when it came to gameplay and the pacing just felt awful to me, yet I appreciate the risks they took in the story. Simply writing this new game off just because it’s a female protagonist is silly. Like any game I just hope for the best.

Turd Ferguson
>>159120728

To me it feels like a an over-correction on Sony's part because last gen, people kept making fun of Sony 1st party games as Sad Dad simulators. So now they've pivoted to the other extreme.

WashedAF

Not sure why Chris is just making shit up? Saints Row reboot shut down Volition and Suicide Squad led to a $200m loss. They didn't sell well.

WashedAF
>>159110178

People not being interested in a game = hate speech? You're delusional

Germanos
>>159110178

If you're not interested in a game, then you stop carrying/talking about it. If you think that the discourse around the game was NORMAL, you're the one delusional here champ.

The Great Santini
>>158937026

Since when do we give a shit about an actor's personal politics? If they put on a good show, who cares?

The Great Santini
>>158926981

You sincerely need to reevaluate your biases. So what if there are games made with zero white men in them? So... what? Why would that bother you?

The Great Santini
>>158899358

Literally the SECOND sentence of your reply is a statement based on a faulty premise. What proof do you have that people STARTED going to movies for entertainment (what else would they have been when they first became a form of media?) so they could see beautiful actors and actresses? Was Charlie Chaplin fap material to you?

The Great Santini
>>158881138

You said a WHOLE lot of nothing there. Just buzz-words you've gleaned from your favorite twitter accounts, it seems.

nobody
>>158937026

Also Ripley from Aliens and Sarah Connor from Terminator 2.

Seth
>>159345376

I don't think most people are writing it off because it's a Female Protagonist which is the narrative that a certain group wants you to believe. On the internet they are also trying to say the Witcher 4 is being hated on because of the Female protagonists/she is ugly/whatever the fuck, but the reveal has 8 million views with under an 8% dislike rate. So yes, there is a very small group of retards who dislike it because either she is uglier than they wanted because they are pervert psychos or because its woman led. For some reason the Dislike tool is not working for Intergalactic (Hmm wonder why) but last screenshot I could find it was like 2x dislikes to every like. So like 66% dislike rate. That shows a hole in the narrative that these weirdo activists try to push so they can keep writing subpar stories. (Aka keep their jobs because they are terrible writers/artists who went to schools that taught them to be activists not artists)