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Sacred Symbols+, Episode 128: The Legality and Morality of Emulation (Video) (Patreon)

Published:
2021-10-12 16:01:03
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2026-06
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The Legality and Morality of Emulation | Sacred Symbols+ Episode 128

The gaming industry recently erupted over a story written on Kotaku all about Nintendo's newest Switch title, Metroid Dread, and how... well... great it looked and played on an emulator. And it's that word -- emulation -- that gets to the heart of today's episode of Sacred Symbols+. Emulation is as old as gaming, and the sad reality is that many people pirate even contemporary, readily-available games in addition to the rarer, older, or inaccessible fare of the past that can be far more easily justified. That's why I (Colin) invited Last Stand's legal analyst Rick Hoeg onto the show, and why we segmented our chat into two distinct sections: One that goes over legal issues having to do with gaming emulation, ROMs, distribution, and more, and then the far more gray ethical realm regarding what is essentially (regardless of how any of us choose to justify it) stealing. Then again, anyone can justify stealing in some situations, at some time, some place, for some reason. The real question, then, is if you could ever justify it when the stolen product is a video game. Check out @Hoeg Law on YouTube! #Emulation #MetroidDread #LastStandMedia

Comments

Rob Aitken

See Cobra shirt, "cobra lalala" To tackle the economics side of it, one part of emulation is the controls problem. Using a PC-360 controller for older games that utilized a D-Pad does not make for a great user experience. Combined with graphical pops or straight graphics failures creates a possibility for a small market to thrive. Using small teams to update controls on games and graphic compatibility with modern GPU's, with or without upping resolution. That said I feel the potential income is probably too small for any company to undertake the workload. So, with the stepback of the Company I feel emulation of games older than say 10 years is acceptable. Playing Wii games on the PC at 1080p is pretty exciting.

Rob Aitken

Emulation, the want of players to enjoy older games and systems, other side of the coin is do not sell your older equipment. Especially for a percentage off the purchase price of a new console via those buyback programs, why would you participate in that program? Seeing the thriving console and game of yester year resale market would seem to indicate the answer, removing the supply when nostalgia starts driving demand.

Travis Stockton

If I had "fuck you money" I would love to hire Hoeg to just let me sit and ask him questions all day about stuff like this. Fascinating topic. For me I think ethical discussion is always more interesting than the legal one because US copyright law (along with many other laws in that country and others) are so completely left in the dust in relation to the Information Age that it's almost not even worth discussing. That's where the enormous "gray area" comes from in this episode and that area is only going to get larger and larger as the apparatus is incapable of keeping up with the advancement of technology. For my ethics, as a (in my mind) legitimate consumer, if I make a transaction with Nintendo, or Sony, or Universal Pictures, or Warner Music Group, for their content, I'm going to do what I want with it with regards to my personal use. I'd draw a parallel to something that isn't as much of a gray area legally in much of the world, and that's cannabis use. It's illegal where I live, but I did it for many years, the majority of which I was an adult. Ethically I had no issue with it because the act of ingesting it isn't harming anyone around me. But that's ignoring that I don't know what sort of unsavory hands that plant passed through before it got to my bong. Legally, the law says my life should be in the hands of a private prison many times over accounting for every violation. The way the discourse and language works around software means that even though I order my Switch games from Best Buy for in-store pickup, paying Nintendo for access to their software in the process, I am a pirate. I'm a pirate because when I get home I pop that cartridge into my Switch and dump the ROM ("you're a criminal, Harry!") so I can run a little mod that unlocks the frame rate, overclocks the CPU in my Switch, and runs the game in portable mode while the system is docked, so that I can get better performance in software running on hardware that I purchased legitimately. The "legal gray area" puts me into a pool with the person who hoards every Switch ROM on the internet just because they can, and the person stealing games off the manufacturing line to upload them before they release in stores, and the person selling bootleg reprints as a marketplace seller on Amazon. I don't like that pool. I'll stick to the one that says I pay for the products I want, and after that, I'll do what I want with them, because I made sure the creators of that game got their due.

Cash

I would be interested to hear a conversation from someone who is pro-piracy. Personally I am, anything I don't have to pay for I don't, except I make decisions on a case by case basis. I'd never pirate this podcast, or one of your games because I know it hurts you differently than when I pirated The Walking Dead tv series, or Cyberpunk 2077. I understand the legal aspect, I understand the moral aspect. I don't inherently value things that can be replicated infinitely like tv, games, movies, music, and software, monetarily, at least. With TV and movies, what is the difference between torrenting them, and using your DVR to record them when they're on the air? One is illegal and the other isn't (I understand this is different than pirating a game.) It's an interesting conversation I'd like to see one day, although I don't know who that person would be.

Max Stahl

"Don't steal my shit." Bedrock Libertarian principle.

Ealia Staroverov
>>69683311

I think you kind of hurt your own argument by saying things like 'it doesn't really hurt a big company' or 'what's the difference between DVRing it' (The difference is you pay for the cable and/or DVR btw). I have a friend who torrents everything TV, Movies, Games, Music, and god knows what else. While I disagree with them strongly, I can at least respect them saying they're taking whatever they want because they can and they don't care.

Cash
>>69683311

I don't believe it does hurt big companies, I'm not sure if I can link stuff here but if you google "does piracy impact sales EU Commission" the study actually shows that piracy increases legitimate sales of games 27% specifically. I don't believe you and I have the power to actually hurt these large companies. in 2016 it was estimated that 35 percent of PC gamers pirate games, and that 25 percent of PC gamers have pirated more than 50 games, but the PC market is the largest and most vibrant one. Speaking about Cyberpunk 2077 specifically, CD Projekt Red doesn't believe that pirating is an issue. I don't support CD Projekt Red, and I never will ever again. I legitimately bought the Witcher 3, but I have lost complete faith in them to give me a product worth $60. I actually purchased Cyberpunk 2077 last month because it was available physically on PS4 for $10 for the steelbook edition, and entitled me to the next gen upgrade for free. With few exceptions like podcasts (because it's easier to pay and support these creators and get access immediately than to wait and pirate them) I will never pay for something if I have an opportunity to get it or use it for free. Is it immoral? Maybe, but I'm not concerned about morality in this case.

David P
>>69683311

We've mostly all pirated, but it doesn't really help the argument to just say that things that can be infinitely replicated aren't valuable, or that you would simply not pay if you could. My interest in piracy (which is mostly just retro games, at this point, but I'm also not a fan of supporting nintendo to be more candid here) is largely about preservation and unavailability to purchase in a modern age. And frankly, otherwise, it's easier to just buy things. If money was an issue then I would have other problems to think about. I'm sure you're being honest but when you say things like "I would never pirate your [last stand] game" I hesitate to believe it completely. But you know, it's your money and doesn't affect me, it just leaves doubt in the air. My friend pirates essentially everything as a PC player, and he's definitely not hard-up on money. It's his decision to do what he wants with his money, but frankly I think it's kind of bullshit when all he cares about are games and they're his favorite medium but almost none of it is valuable enough to pay for.

Andy Miller
>>69683311

You completely undermined your own argument. You can try to justify it, but at the end of the day, you’re stealing because you can, and hurting the people responsible for creating that product. Maybe they have enough money to be fine without the proceeds from your sale, but that doesn’t justify it in any way. It’s stealing.

Cash
>>69683311

I mean, of course I'll justify it because it's what I do, I don't think anybody does stuff and wouldn't justify it. I'm 100% fine with stealing from companies. I think if you break into someone's shed/garage and steal their DeWalt tools they paid for, you're a loser. That's what I truly believe.

Brian Bolejack
>>69683311

I don't know that I really understand you're argument? Regardless of the size of the impact, there is still an impact. If you steal a $60 game, that's $60 not going to the people who created it. Yeah $60 to Lillymo is probably far more impactful than $60 to Microsoft but it's still an impact. Just because a pebble thrown in the lake doesn't make splash doesn't mean there isn't a ripple.

Aeship89

Is there a Pod out already where the Tencent rip off of FF14 is discussed?? That was the first i had heard of that, very interested in that story!

Anonymous

You have a Patreon producer with the handle “Nick Are”🤣😂 Someone is trying to do you dirty B 😂😂

Anonymous
>>69778531

Say it a few times... it will come. Make sure you are alone though to avoid unintended conflict. lol The internet really has no chill.

Timothy Martin

This was an absolutely fantastic episode. I also abide by the “fund the industry you love” mantra… one of the reasons I will always remain a patreon supporter of LSM

Matthew Deane

Really interesting episode. The last 10 minutes or so reminded of incident on Twitter last year (I think it was a year but time has no meaning anymore) where a guy told a comic writer he pirated his comics. They got into a back and forth on twitter and things got worse when the guy said he couldn’t afford them to justify why he did it. The topic went on for awhile with other writers chiming in. One of the arguments the guy stated was something like he would never steal because thats criminal but you can’t call piracy stealing. it’s amazing how people see a difference between taking digital and physical media, most people who pirate would not walk into a shop and steal something but online it’s all good. The thing that really shocked me was the amount of people in the comments of an article about the incident in agreement with the guy saying it was ok to pirate because of price, not knowing if they’d enjoy it or not having access to certain app’s.

Nigel

Learning the legal side of the business is fascinating, really well done.

Kaz Redclaw

One thing I would be curious about, RE Habroxia, would be when the Vita store finally closes. If they had gotten their way, and closed the PSN store for Vita, would you care if someone bought a copy of Habroxia on Switch, PS4, or Steam, then used that clandestine means to get a Vita copy... That's always kind of how I mostly worked on it. If something's available, I'll find a way to pay for it even if I have to use a different storefront. (Of course, I already own both Habroxia games on Vita, so that's just theoretical.) Similarly, I have my own rules about fan translations. A. Try to ebay a copy of the original first, this is why I have Live A Live and Princess Crown in japanese. B. If an official translation is released after I play it, buy the official translation as well. This is why I have Earthbound Beginnings on Wii U even though I finished it first on emulation before it was released. There was a case where I had purchased the Japanese version of a game (Trails of Zero) and gotten the translation, but within a couple of weeks they announced an official translation coming out a year and a half later. I put my plans on hold to play the fan translation and I'll be buying the official release next year to play it. On the other hand, I think the copyright terms are way too long. They were originally 14 years extendable to 28, and later 28 years extendable to 42. I think 42 years is the longest you should ever be allowed to copyright something, but Ricky Rat must stay under copyright, so they keep making it longer and longer, despite the fact that their entire business was built on ripping off the public domain. Also, one company that's been pretty good about this is Sega. They've sold many of their games on Steam, and I've purchased them there, and there's actually just raw rom files in the files you buy from steam. Because of that, I just buy Sega stuff and then copy it to my modded vita to play them. I wish the TurboGrafx16 devs would do the same with all their stuff.