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Boss Keys - Minish Cap (Patreon)

Published:
2016-11-28 17:11:56
Imported:
2026-06

Content

Hope you like it. I'm starting to feel like Boss Keys is getting a bit crazy at this point - very complex and inside baseball. But hey, I always knew it would only be for those who really care about it and those who don't can just wait for the polished and approachable episode of GMTK :)

Files

28 November 2016

Uploaded by Mark Brown on 2016-11-28.

Comments

Ossian Olausson

Aww man you gotta tell me what other game series

Eric Brookfield

Keep it coming. For those of us who haven't played _all_ the Zeldas, it's a great way to experience what we missed. Love the new graphs.

Game Maker's Toolkit (GMTK)

Oh Patreons get to know! So the obvious ones are Metroid and Dark Souls. But I'm thinking maybe I want to do something a bit different (i.e. not level design) so I'm also considering Metal Gear. And hey, any ideas from you lot are appreciated! It needs to be a game series with at least 4 or 5 entries, and with some interesting aspect to look at in each game.

Game Maker's Toolkit (GMTK)

I dunno about MGS. Maybe how the stealth mechanics have changed? Any ideas from an MGS super fan would be appreciated. Anything other than the narrative, really. As for Alien - I'd love to do something on that game. Perhaps something on the AI. But I have yet to get past the first 20 minutes as it's unbearably scary :P

Kris De Schutter

Just wanted to throw out a link between "find the path dungeons" and VR. They are much better for creating presence, which is a crucial feature in VR. This really worked in Obduction, where understanding the world and finding your way around is essential to solving the puzzles, but also helped root you into that place.

Raminder

Based on the games I like, I am definitely a find your path type of player.

Joey

What a great episode! The Minish Cap was the first Zelda game I ever played, and if I remember right, I used a walkthrough the whole way through. Your analysis on what differentiates Find/Follow the Path levels and how they affect the player planted the seeds of some interested game design thoughts in my mind. This inside baseball approach is a very good fit for the Boss Keys series. If we're going for a deep dive into design, might as well go the whole way!

Érico Lotufo

Great episode again, Mark! I can't wait for you to do Link Between Worlds. It's "technically" a "Choose your Path" game with the Dungeon order being chosen by the player.

Gavin Barry

Lovely job, Mark. Would you be able to do a video at some point on skating games like Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 3, Underground 2 and even Skate (and Skate 2) and how the genre has evolved? :)

Game Maker's Toolkit (GMTK)

i absolutely plan to do this! maybe one video for THPS and one for Skate (and perhaps in the same month)

Adam

Pikmin! Each area is very unique, plus there are the many caves. Adding that to your possibility bucket!

Kuri Making Games

Really enjoyed this one ^^. The updated graphs looks much better! You mentioned why you prefer find-the-path dungeons, but what did you think about Julian's take on the shadow temple from oot? Does the narrative take a backseat for you when playing Zelda? Cheers!

Gavin Barry

You're an absolute gem, Mark :) Keep up the amazing work!

Game Maker's Toolkit (GMTK)

Thanks Simon So, one thing is that I'm warming to the Shadow Temple. I think a mix of the two types of dungeon in one game is quite nice. ST comes directly after the Water Temple and they work nicely together. I also acknowledge that level design can tell a story. An example of this is in Link to the Past where the Hyrule Castle dungeon is extremely follow-the-path, because you're chasing Zelda and it should feel like Link is charging from room to room, not getting lost and solving puzzles. But I also try not to read too much into the narratives of Nintendo games as I know the developer massively values gameplay over story.

Cleo Saulnier

Looks like I'm the only one who prefers the old icons. The new icons are really an eyesore for me. I find them truly horrific to look at. The white symbols look odd and it's the exact same symbol on both icons. If you have it laid out properly, you know what is a door or obstacle, but only because the keys are dead ends. If they weren't, it's more confusing than ever. A lock symbol and key symbol was much clearer. Google lock and then google key. See what I mean? It's pretty clear cut what the symbols should be. Also, why use the same colour for the background of the icons that already have the same symbol? And different colours for each set of symbols? Seems odd. But like I said, seems everyone likes the new graphs, so what do I know? The real improvement is the addition of the circles that can join multiple paths. Those are nice. Other than that, really liked the video.

Game Maker's Toolkit (GMTK)

To answer one point: the reason for the redundancy in the symbols and colours is to make them accessible to colourblind viewers. Sorry you don't like them, Cleo - I knew that some wouldn't like the changes but I felt they were very important!

Kuri Making Games

Oh that's true. It's good with variation from dungeon to dungeon. Which makes me wonder about twilight princess. Haven't played it for a long time, but from what I remember it had some of the best dungeons in the franchise but also some of the worst. It stood out to me as the top and rock bottom of the series. Looking forward to your analysis of it :)

Game Maker's Toolkit (GMTK)

So i've played... 4 TP dungeons so far and yeah, it's an interesting mix. Some really nice dungeons in there, though, looking forward to digging into that one. it's also really interesting how it connects to ocarina in the dungeon designs.

Cleo Saulnier

Sorry, but the colour blind excuse doesn't fly. You had different symbols before. If you wanted to change the colours from before to make them more distinguishable to colour blind people, that'd be one thing, but you altered their use. You now have identical symbols. So you took away the #1 thing a colour blind person would look at. Now, they must rely on the shape of the icon (diamond vs square) or worse, the colour which is meaningless even to non colour blind people. Yet, as I've mentioned above, google "lock" and then google "key" and tell me these symbols aren't ubiquitous! Anyhow, just my 2 cents. If you like the new design, that's all that matters. And sorry if my comment seems strongly worded. It's not meant to be. Just pointing out a difference of opinion. Still like your work.

LostEcho

Great job on this episode Mark, I'm a big fan of the changes especially the one where you link the questions to the graph. It makes everything come together in a nice and cohesive way. There were some points that I struggled to understand in previous episodes like the difference between linear and non-linear dungeons but now everything is clearer. Can't wait for the next episode :) Also on a side note, I understand that you look at dungeons purely from a game design perspective, but I found the Shadow Temple particularly enjoyable because it was such a different atmosphere from the rest of the happy and colurful Hyrule, it explores the dark history of hyrule that I never thought existed, and so it didn't matter to me that it was linear. Let's say it was a short and easy but thrilling ride for me.

Alex H Johnstone

Awesome work as always, I personally really like the new dungeon icons/layouts. This was the first time I could make sense of the gameplay flow (even before you did that neat little play-though animation). I do have one gripe, the "spatial awareness" comment. Tons of games rely on spatial awareness challenges. In fact as a designer it's hard to find a game genre that doesn't test "spatial awareness" (by the strict definition). But I think you're referring to one aspect of spatial awareness. There's a couple terms in psychology (I work with a research group testing spatial cognition & navigation) that I recently learned that might shed a light on the distinction. An "egocentric" (or Idiothetic) perspective relates to the perception of space in relation to your body, taken in most contexts it means first person, but really extends to anything that exists in proximity, and your relation to it. An "allocentric" (or allothetic) navigation model relies on an understanding of larger spaces, "distal" cues, maps, etc. I feel like this is the type of spatial awareness you're talking about. So, egocentric spatial awareness challenges would be testing proximal interactions between character/environment/enemy, whereas allocentric challenges would test a navigation model comprised of distal cues (sometimes) but certainly an understanding of environment layout and memorable features. Sorry, that all got way more academic sounding than I intended. TL:DR, there are a couple ways to define spatial awareness, just a heads up before people post shit ;)

Nolen Murphy

Just curious, do you have any plans on covering Four Swords Adventures? I think that game would be difficult to do a full Boss Keys episode on since it doesn't have traditional dungeons, but it's Nintendo's only swing at the Four Swords games that Capcom started. It'd be interesting to hear your thoughts on how Capcom developed a Four Sword game (Minish Cap) vs how Nintendo did it (Four Swords Adventures). Edit: Whoops, forgot that "enter" means "post" here. Gotta hold that shift key... I see that you're tossing around the idea of Metal Gear in your head for Boss Keys. The stealth game design in the original Metal Gear games would be relatively easy to cover and a good start. If you've never played them before like many Metal Gear Solid fans, you're missing out. Unlike the Solid series, the story is just a set-up for the gameplay. Moving forward, you could talk about how the level design shifted as the gunplay shifted from top-down (MG1) to first-person (MGS2) to third-person (MGS4). Enemy placement and total enemy counts in each game would also be something to cover early on. Maybe you could watch one of MatthewMatosis' videos on the series to get an idea of how to approach the series? I normally don't recommend watching other people's stuff for inspiration since it could just end up putting ideas in your head that aren't really yours, but Matt's videos focused a lot on the story too, and there was a lot more to be said about the level design and gameplay than just what he covered. Edit 2: I'll also add in that since you're considering Dark Souls, honestly, that series has been covered to death. You'd also just be asking to get tangled into one of the most critical and scrutinizing gaming communities out there. Joseph Anderson actually went on a little twitter rant about it the other day (see <a href="https://twitter.com/jph_anderson/status/802934551672684544)," rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">https://twitter.com/jph_anderson/status/802934551672684544),</a> and honestly, he's right. And talking to the Souls community gets exhausting. Since nobody else seems to have suggested it, would you consider the Crash Bandicoot or Jak & Daxter series? Or maybe just something from the older playstation era in general. I feel like a lot of good PS1/2 games don't get enough discussion these days, or are at least buried under discussions about Final Fantasy, MGS, and Shadow of the Colossus.

Game Maker's Toolkit (GMTK)

Yeah, in retrospect I should have been clearer on this. I wasn't talking about, say, looking around the room to spot targets and flanking routes in a shooter. But not many games ask you to think about all the other rooms, and how you'll get through them!

Game Maker's Toolkit (GMTK)

Cheers! The only Metal Gear games I've played to any real degree are MGS 4 and 5, so I'm hoping to use the series as an excuse to play the earlier games! I'll keep thinking on it. And cheers, I'll read that tweetstorm now!

Rowan Krzysiak

Hello Mark, The new graphs are really good. I look forward to the structure they are going to bring to future episodes as well as the big reveal at the end when they're all gathered. So, I've been scratchin' the ol' noggin about Metal Gear. I can understand that you don't want to do level design and you want something with a slightly different take preferably avoiding a deep dive into the narrative. Here's my two cents - Metal Gear games have an all encompassing vision. I personally feel that it is difficult (but not impossible) to independently look at any slice of the game. One aspect that could potentially let you pick and choose when you need to look closer at things like the level design or the narrative is with items. My thoughts are that it would be quite interesting to see how each game varies in its treatment of items. What are the items? Where are the items? How and when are they acquired? How are they selected, applied or used? This gives you lots and lots of avenues to persue (or avoid if necessary). How do the items define that iteration of Snake (or Raiden)? How to they define the environment at any particular time? Ultimately, how do they define the game and the series? Ramble over. That's my two cents.

Daniel Jackson

Great video! As a kid playing Zelda games I always got stuck at some random spot. I usually would buy the guides and think to myself “I never would have figured that out without extra help.” As a kid I thought they did stuff like this so you would have to buy the guide or If you rented the game you would buy it. Your point about follow the path vs learn the path made me think about those moments. Now I realize it might have been me not understanding a path. Did you ever have similar moment of having to look up the answer to a puzzle?

Seliel the Shaper

I really like the new graphs. I would love to see these in a convenient drag-and-drop mobile app for developers who want an easy dungeon layout tool. But that's probably beyond your scope :-)

Game Maker's Toolkit (GMTK)

Yeah, I certainly found stumbling blocks while playing Zelda games. Though, looking back, I'm not sure how the hell I managed to finish Link's Awakening when I was, I dunno, eight years old? I think hints in the games (delivered through your companion characters) would be cool, as long as they're optional. I seem to remember there being a system in A Link Between Worlds where you could use Play Coins to get hints.

Oskar van Velden

Mmm, I truly enjoy these analytical videos about the Zelda series - even though I never really played a Zelda game, probably caused by the puzzles not really speaking to me. But I think the previous icons were a bit clearer. Especially the difference between the diamond shape for keys and the square for doors. I found the non-diamond icons more clear distinct from the door-shapes. But ok, that's me ^^

Magnus Leo

Great work as always! Happy to be a Patreon of the show.

Justin Loudermilk

is there a way to get the dungeon graphs as ... nm i just finished the video, keep up th good work