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I realize this was going to be an incredibly divisive subject and it's especially long overdue on this side of things, but I figure I might as well address the elephant in the room. I ask that you at least read to the end.

Yes, my pictures have started incorporating some generative AI elements. This has been going on for about a year now. Not as many as some of you might think just from reading that, and not in the ways some of you might think.

I realize I should've written something up explaining this shift way sooner since now it seems like I was trying to hide something. I wasn't; I just wasn't really thinking about it.

So full disclosure, here's what I use it for:

Backgrounds (technically/sometimes)

Not always, mind. Simple things I still do by manually. But when the setting of a piece is more than I'm confident in my ability to pull off, then I've started doing something new. What I'm doing is making an initial background drawing at thumbnail size, and then converting that thumbnail using image to image software, effectively upscaling and enhancing it. Then I refine what comes out, (usually redrawing significant parts of it, or of the thumbnail), and then repeating the process a couple more times before I get a final version that's usable and then I manually do cleanup on that and paint over for things like shadows.

So for example, this:

is the thumbnail that got machine translated to (eventually) become the background for Fledgling Hoard. Incredibly rough, but as you can see the basics were all still there for it to interpret.

It's a cheat yes, but, well...

Before I used to just use visual novel assets I'd bought to accomplish the same thing, which arguably was even lazier. I've always disclosed as such when prompted. (I haven't done this as much lately because I couldn't afford it, there library was limiting, and this ironically felt like a slightly more honest alternative since at least I was providing the initial image data.)

I worry that the amount of layers it'd take to do some of these things, like the above, when combined with the actual subjects, is more than some of the programs I use can feasibly handle. Paint Tool SAI already gets angry if I make the canvas too big. I've had enough drive and hardware failures in the last few years that whenever a file hangs while saving due to being too big and complex I start getting a panic attack and this helps with that, since the thumbnail method means I don't have to do the backgrounds at the full resolution.

The truth is that I've always felt I kinda sucked at backgrounds. Some things are easier than others (I'm pretty confident in my beaches, most of the time) but I think they're a time sink at the best of times. I do try and get better but the returns have always been diminishing and disheartening. I've never been great at drawing large scale props or buildings, to say nothing of how my perspective is often all over the place. It just didn't seem reasonable to spend an extra 30 hours cleaning up a thumbnail for something that's not even the focal point.

So, those are the main reasons I started using tool assist. The irony is that as a result of doing it this way and drawing initial sketches for it to go off of I'm actually doing more in terms of drawing backgrounds and more frequently than I had in years prior. I'm also learning more about how to do from scratch it by using this cheat. With any luck I'll be able to wean myself off of it more and more over time since it's sort of unlocked some things. That's my unrealistic hope anyway.

The other way I use it is

Occasional color picking for the eyedropper tool. This is done by feeding my work (specifically a much scaled down version of the line art) into the machine directly. Then usually I disregard most of what the machine picks out because I already have a color pallet in mind, but sometimes it gives me an idea for something like rim lighting or where to place highlights. I still apply that knowledge by hand with the same good old fashioned tablet I got back in '08.

That's it. The main subject of each pic, I'm still doing that 100% from scratch. Anything they might be holding or interacting with, as well (outside of like, the ground, I guess). Pets, animals familiars, those I do by hand. Background mobs...well those are usually a Clip Studio Paint brush if I'm being honest. Sketch level stuff and line art, obviously, still by hand. And it's going to stay that way. It's really just environments and even those are based on original doodles. Also never for writing. (Not that I write all that often to begin with).

That's why I haven't been checking the "created with AI tools" tickbox over on deviantart. I interpreted that as, perhaps incorrectly, being for when its the entirety/focal point, and since the backgrounds aren't the focal point in my work, and since I was putting in the initial work for the background anyway, I thought it fell more under the category of mixed media and saying it was strictly AI didn't correctly apply. I can see how this can come off as dishonest, and for that I apologize. If the way the wind is blowing says that I need to go back and tag stuff so that it reflects this methodology, I can do that. Again, not trying to hide anything. Whenever someone's said something about a background I've said they're either by someone else (in the cases when I paid for the assets) or in these cases "tool assisted", but I guess I never really outright explained what that meant in a public way until now.

To be clear, I have not, (and will never just) write a prompt into it and posting that generated picture by itself as a finished piece. I do have my limits.

And yes, I hear the response already that this makes me a thief and part of the problem. To that I'd say I've also been stolen from; even if I never dipped a toe into using this technology, I'd still have skin in the game and be a part of the conversation seeing as how I know for a fact there are models (specifically, lora) that are trained on my work.

So I guess somewhere along the line I figured that if I'm feeding the beast no matter what, then I should at least be able to get in line and drink some of its milk too. I guess this does make me me part of the problem though. It's a new world and I'm trying to figure out ways to adapt to it.

The thing is, if you've been around long enough you might remember that way back in the day when I was more hotblooded and and bullheaded (read: stupid), I made some derisive and undeserved and frankly wrong remarks about 3d modelers and ended up burning a lot of bridges that I shouldn't have. In my ignorance of how the tech worked and (because I was angry about the difficulties of coming up with good poses or struggling to figure out camera angles) I'd say things like "they just have to click render and they're done" and then I actually tried to learn how to sculpt 3d models and it was way harder and involved than I gave them credit for. I owe those 3d guys an apology, and I see the same thing happening again and those things I said that were wrong are starting to get echoed. It's not quite the same, and in some cases the argument is more true here than it was there, but in remembering my old attitudes and not wanting to be that person again, I decided to try it for myself and see what the big deal was before making a judgement. Maybe I'm also going too far in the other direction.

Again I know this is probably already damning me in a some of your eyes. I'm not trying to be an AI apologist or anything. I think the problems with how it's being used and rolled out are pretty obvious to anyone with working eyes. But I think I'm trying to land on the idea that this is ultimately a tool and it's here, and that we've gotta deal with it now that it is. There's gotta be some ways for us to use it creatively and ethically and not get swept up or aside by it. So that's what I've been trying to find a way to do.

So, since if you're reading this spiel on this platform that means you've entered into a trust with me to act and produce content to your liking. I'd like to hear your thoughts on what to do going forward.

Comments

Chumlee99

I guess I’m just too focused on the main purpose of the pic to notice whether or not AI is in the background

Artlover8999

I’ve known for years now that you bought your backgrounds for a lot of pieces, which at the time I thought was lazy, right up until I remembered how hard drawing always was for me, and how desperate for a shortcut I was. Honestly, I don’t mind this because you’re using your own work, and reworking it multiple times between AI reworks until you get something you feel fits your style. If this helps you conquer your ultimate hurdle of drawing backgrounds, then I have no right to complain about your usage of them. I myself have worked with a guy with an AI program who helped me hammer out the appearance of a character I created, but that AI image is only going to be used as a reference for an actual artist to truly create the character. I think AI is a useful tool, and I think you’re using it far better than a lot of other people, so I see no problem with your new, current process.

Zeerol

AI is a fine tool to use, so long as you keep a close eye on its operation and check the results thoroughly. Keep on keepin' on, man, I don't mind.

Wally Hackenslacker

At the end of the day, AI is a tool like any other. If it helps you work smarter instead of harder then it's a good tool at that. I buy the "using AI is theft" argument when it comes to say, Disney using AI generated stuff to avoid paying VFX artists and the like. But independent lone wolf artists just getting by should be allowed to use all the tools at their disposal without reproach, imho.

Gravidtron

This is actually stuff I basically worked out from observation. My mental process was like “hey, is that background AI? It is… but not all of it is, so this is actually more work for him than a drag and drop BG. Huh.” It was always clear (to me) that the actual character art was entirely your work! I can see how you’d be touchy about that— I saw someone link to a set of assets to make AI prompts look like the works of several known belly artists, but none of them were very convincing (thankfully). If AI can’t turn a non-artist into an artist, then it can’t do the reverse either. There’s no image here that doesn’t ultimately come from your mind’s eye first, and that’s what I’m paying for.

TheLoreMaker

I have a reflexive dislike for machine generated content but the way you explain it is something I think I can live with. It is not the center of your art and one could say it is being used 'correctly' to fill in the gaps where the human element is lacking. Since it is for your own material as well, it might not be considered theft.

Muffin

I'll be honest, Sab, I think it's perfectly fine that you're using AI in this kind of way. I do understand that image generation can be interpreted as stealing or plagiarism, but environmental image generation is a lot of times trained on actual photos, to my knowledge. I'd hardly call that stealing. Like Wally said, it's working smarter, not harder. Plus I also agree with Artlover8999's sentiment, as you're redrawing quite a bit of these. If this is helping you learn to draw BGs well, then that's awesome. In the end, I'm here for the pretty women you draw, anyways. BGs are nice, but not always necessary, so streamlining the process is totally valid, IMO.

魔黒ルーク(StygianRook)

Hmm yeah, had a feeling there was some AI use for the background with how they had some weird artifacts and, quite honestly, shading and rendering mistakes you'd never make given your skill level, but I decided to not bring it up as I wasn't 100% sure. Still, I appreciate you went out of your way to confirm it and address this matter. Ultimately, it's up to you what you do with your art, I can't and won't stop you from doing what you're with the backgrounds, but I'll be unsubbing next month because I won't support any direct use of AI in any form for finished pieces, even if painted over until it's not noticeable to the untrained eye. Past this point I'll just be voicing my own opinion and you're free to consider or dismiss it, but whether it's 100% of your own work/skill or not is not why I'm against using AI-generated content, but that accepting to use it effectively reduces seeing art or parts of it as a hassle and the resulting apathy towards those parts leading to a less creative and more mechanical and inorganic approach to making art, which will be a problem in the long run if more and more people start thinking that more and more of the artistic process can be done purely mechanically, as then you'd just get progressively more stiff, awkward, and "souless" pieces at worst and generic-looking pieces at best. Plus, using other people's art as stock (or at least those that weren't intended to be used that way by the creator), even "indirectly" through AI, doesn't sit right with me. If you need third party stock images or assets to cover what you can't do there's plenty of properly copyrighted materials already available to be used/modified freely and there's nothing wrong with making use of them, you mentioned you've been using them with no problems so far too. Also, given the technical difficulties you've mentioned, they're things most artists eventually have to deal with, hobbyists and professionals alike. Not saying that you have to do things a certain way because others successfully did it or even consider them at all if you don't find any useful or interesting, but I suggest just being aware that technologies and techniques like 3D engines (whether it's Blender, Daz, or CSP's built-in model viewer), photobashing/matte painting (with properly licensed stock/assets), and concept art techs and/or speedpainting (usually merging as many layers as possible and using very few layers at all) were all tried and proven skills in the art industry. Those skills and techs were developed specifically for tackling otherwise very tasking scenes or illustrations, cutting what could take dozens or hundreds of hours into a few without any drop in quality. And those are all reasonable to achieve with good fundamentals, eye for design, and some patience with studying resources about them, all something I'm sure you already have plenty of by now. Now, I don't claim to be good at any of the painting techniques (in fact, I still find a lot of it quite cumbersome at times) and, again, you don't have to employ them but personally I can confirm that giving them a chance will very likely make one realize how reliable and versatile such skills are compared to something like outsourcing things to AI, by a long shot. If anything, I believe they're very strong tools to help artists answer all the ongoing AI craze while still working honestly and staying true to themselves, so hopefully there's something out there that could help you out too. Anyway, one doesn't have to give the foreground or background plus supporting elements as much detail or polish as the mains subject, so with some creativity and ingenuity there's always more efficient and, more importantly, fun ways to draw/paint them seamlessly without anything feeling weird or out of place. Sorry about the long essay, but I feel things like these should be said when it's time.

魔黒ルーク(StygianRook)

tl;dr: I'm against any and all AI-generated content use. But if you're only struggling with drawing/painting backgrounds despite your best efforts, I suggest looking into other readily available techniques and technologies designed for doing such complicated work, as that should hopefully be able to help you out, even if you might not think they'll perform as you'd like at first. Hoping for the best.

Saburo X

I'm sorry to see you go and I'm going to respect your decision. I would however like to respond to a couple of your points First, I think that it's natural to see some parts of the creative process as a hassle. Social media is full of artist griping about particular issues (like, for example, hands). However, I don't necessarily think it follows that the apathy or even hatred to these aspects always leads to a less creative or souless outcome; creativity can be found in how problems are circumvented as often as how they're resolved. (An example I've been thinking of a lot lately is the fog in the early silent hill games; a result of tecnichal limitations that created a signature aesthetic.) Now, regarding my prior use of stock images. There were actually significant problems with that. I don't know if it was clear but essentially I was limited to what existed and what I could afford. In terms of the former, I was running out of viable resources, and in terms of the latter, budget. There were a lot of concepts for pictures that I just couldn't do because the background assets didn't exist for them anywhere on the internet, or if they did, they were from the wrong angle. I am curious as to why kitbashing and painting over the bought assets is an acceptable compromise, (and to be honesty I believe that ultimately all art is compromise at some level between mental image and time or technical ability) because I got complaints about doing that in the past as well. Anyway, you do raise a good point about speedpainting and other techniques. If you look back at my early work you can see I've tried lots of different things over the years; some of my very early pics have really obvious 3d models in them, for example. The thing is, putting aside the limitations of budget for things like 3d models and asset packs, this current workflow is something I'm using as a stopgap while I improve at the traditional methods. Machine assisted Upscale/enhance was another tool in the kit, but even now it's not the only one I'm using; there are still pictures being made and posted here that use those assets and techniques you're okay with. But the use of this tool in particular is a deal breaker, I'm going to respect that. I'm curious if the thumbnail posted in the entry above would've been an acceptable level of background for you. Going forward I'm going to take your advice to heart and try to experiment with those techniques more, and hopefully one day you'll feel that I've earned your patronage back.

魔黒ルーク(StygianRook)

Thanks for the fast reply! Yeah it's understandable there's far too many limitations that could make things less viable, again I can't tell you what to do or not do, as it's your own art after all. And yeah, I agree active problem for when you're stuck or when dealing with something that takes frustratingly long for your purposes often demands solutions beyond the creative parts, it's what I do as well. I even often actively impose limitations on myself, whether on my tools, programs, or my workflow, too to force me to think outside the box and find another way of doing things, my STEM background kinda made it a habit when doing anything really. It's natural for some things to feel like a hassle or a chore as nothing is smooth sailing in practice, I feel it just might really get out of hand if entire sections of the process remains that way without changing for the better. Anyway, I just don't think AI-generated stuff is the way to go about things as there's more reliable options. Ah, cost can definitely add up when buying assets, and often times you need to spend a lot of time finding things that best match what you want. Can't say I know many ways around these, but whenever I do find ones I feel are necessary I set a budget for how much I'm willing to spend and go from there. Stock images and 3d kitbash models will almost never be a perfect match, so learning some image manipulation will be very helpful, I've seen a lot of matte painting strats that blew me away with how much can be done with so little too, sometimes with as little as one or two image or texture files. Being more thorough with studying perspective can also help you transforming planes in perspective intuitively as well since you technically can chop up images into front-facing planes and then use free transform to rebuild them at the right/desired angle, though it might be less helpful for more organic forms (in which case just actual drawing/painting and some simplication/stylization can make do). But again, I'm no expert so best to do your own research before trusting what I'm saying. As for people complaining about photobashing and kitbashing, I really can't see any valid reasons for using said tools to be wrong unless the images or models weren't intended/licensed to be used that way, but as far as the skills themselves go I can assure you they're perfectly valid, as matte painting has been around in the professional scene way before computer graphics were a thing and it's where most modern photobash and concept art principles come from, you just gotta have the legal parts as sound as you can and any naysayers won't have any ammo against you. Also, I think the thumbnail you sent is fine, though I can't speak for everyone here as I'm just one person. Anyway, all things considered, I think digital painting in general might be of interest to you since I've heard many experienced painters say they don't need to rely on any technology beyond the drawing/painting program itself, even when doing extremely difficult scenes, so that way you can just keep photobashing and similar to just the little parts you can't do once you have the general painting skills ready. Most of the painting process is knowing where to put more/less detail and decide what's most/least important to show, so no hard rules about what should or shouldn't be done for a successful piece. I'll still be following you as you're still one of my favorite artists, you still have my respect as an artist when it comes to character drawing. Given how you've handled things so far, I'm positive I'll be back to resub eventually, so here's to a better tomorrow. Thank you very much for genuinely hearing me out, Saburo. If you need anything you can contact me anywhere any time too as ultimately I just want to help you in some way, I'll do my best as well.

Ethan Philpot

I've kind of suspected for a while. Though I understand it's a lot of work to do backgrounds, I'm sorry but I can't in good conscience financially support anyone who uses AI generated images in any way. Sincerely I'd prefer no background at all than an AI image. I know the backgrounds & environments aren't the focus of your stuff, but there's just too much harm in using such software & it taints the image to me. I'm cancelling my membership

Saburo X

The main reason I wrote this was to gauge responses. I can and will start phasing out my use of it based on this feedback. It'd be great if you could stay on as I experiment with alternatives, but I'll respect your decision.

Saburo X

So funny story I went over to pixiv's booth page which is one of the places I used to go to those visual novel asset materials that I took apart for use in pieces and I've run into an ironic problem in that a lot of the shops are now selling stuff made with AI so...yeah. Even if I go back to that option all I'm doing is adding a middle man and burning money I don't have. So instead I'm going to just start phasing out my use of the stuff entirely and try and focus more on speedpainting. It'll probably suck for a long time and make pictures take longer to get done, but hopefully it'll earn your trust back.

魔黒ルーク(StygianRook)

Oh yeah, it has gotten so out of hand even Artstation is full of those, so searching for usable ones takes longer than before. Maybe it'd be a good idea to work with textures instead since I dont think I've seen many AI-generated ones in go-to websites like unsplash or textures.com and it'd be a good exercise for matte painting or photobashing, and a lot of usable assets there are free too. Photobash.com might be out of your price range, but so far they're legit and I recommend taking a look. But again, you don't have to force yourself to pick all this up right away, take it a step at a time and see how it goes. Even if you start small or simple, I'm sure it'll result in great things the more they add to your experience. And again, I can't speak for everyone but I certainly don't mind you experimenting with more techniques or taking longer to finish pics. Oh and you already got my respect, what I don't respect is AI-generated nonsense itself. Fighting against AI-generated content is my personal duty as an artist, so I can't pledge in good conscience so long it's being used. Anyway, looking forward to your future pics, still, hope you'll find the solution you're looking for the backgrounds!

TheShelTruck

I appreciate you being completely honest about your usage of AI in your art. A lot of people would try and let it go unmentioned. But for me there is a line in the sand with AI in art. I know you’re trying to use it as a tool to get around limitations but for me I cannot support AI in art right now. I have cancelled my membership. I sincerely do hope you find a better way to handle the issue of background other than AI.

Saburo X

I'm going to stop using it going forward seeing it's clearly a failed endeavor given the strong objections to it. I'd hope you'd stick around in light of that decision but I can understand if that's it.

Lazy Insanity

Sab, I've followed your work since pretty early on; I think I found you when you were still doing Inari Tai stuff. And I've loved watching your style change over time as you refine it into what you have today. Art, like any other passion job, is a journey as you get better. And while using AI in art is divisive, the way you're using it is the way I think it should be used. Nobody is good at everything, right? And having this tool for you to use, in the manner you're using it, is one more thing to help you do what you love. Seriously, don't stress because of this, and don't push yourself too hard. I'm sure many of us will be here, and I'm certain some people who unsubscribe will be coming back, sooner or later.

Tendra Hinman

While I am intensely opposed to AI art, this is enough of an edge case that it doesn't bother me too badly. You're just using it for backgrounds, and to upscale low resolution backgrounds at that. Wholly generative AI backgrounds might be a bit too far for me, but this isn't that, and I like your work enough that it's hard for me to really hold it against you.

Saburo X

It's not worth the trouble or stress it's causing, so I'm gonna go ahead and ditch it.

Karvil

I will say that in some of the pieces over the last few months, there started really getting to be enough... something, something about rendering gloss or something, that I started feeling unsure about some them being wholly your work even on the main figures. I think it's partially way AI art tends to make hair so loopy, so work like Trinity Field or Periscopic Proportions started falling into the uncertain valley, especially when I knew the backgrounds were Algo-Gen. Just starts making everything suspicious, even if it's just style changes, eh?

Saburo X

In terms of the hair the only thing I didn't use AI at all but I did start trying to use more underlighting to give it depth. Which I guess AI generated stuff does do and I can see how that'd combine with the backgrounds to create that effect. I guess that's another thing I'm going to have to stop doing.