Home Creators Posts Import Register Favorites Logout

Content

The two flew over the steppes, not rushing, not dawdling, both lost in their own thoughts. Liren had gone back to find the Shaman’s hat. Narantuyaa had been a pain, and lied several times, but she was useful enough. They just needed a direction. Now they had one. Fort Askarmand, on the Yness river. They had heard about slave forts in the steppes for a while. Now they would actually see one. They just didn’t know what to do when they got there.

It was a daoist sort of approach. Just flow. Don’t worry about what might, or might not, be. Just see where things lead, and don’t try to do too much. Good things would happen, bad things would happen, you couldn’t control it. There really wasn’t that much distinction between the two, as one always contained a piece of the other. Just accept, and flow, and try not to think about the fact that he just invaded a camp, harmed everyone in it, and kidnapped someone who, technically, was an enemy, but also, equally technically, was just some lady looking out for her people. 

Which made him feel like a scumbag, except they were about to visit a slave fort on the borders of their kingdom, one supplied heavily by the Yuu. A fortified trading post for human lives and immense suffering. Describing it as “evil” or an “injustice” managed to be both accurate and insultingly inadequate at the same time. Yes, it was an injustice. It was morally disgusting. It was heretical by any and every definition of the word. So what were they going to do about it?

The thought grew like a toothache. What, exactly, were they going to do about one of several slave forts? Flatten it? Flatten all of them? The soldiers already did that, and they were rebuilt within a month. Tian and Liren couldn’t stop the slave trade. Not just the two of them, and not with the Yuu actively supporting it. Hell, he couldn’t put it all on the Yuu. Black Iron Gorge, what there was of it, supported the trade, the other nations buying and selling slaves supported it, and even if the Kingdom officially banned it, wasn’t it still happening? 

Was he wrong? If everyone seemed to want it, was it wrong to try and stop it?

A properly daoist reaction might be to simply accept what they couldn’t change. Just sigh, shake their heads, and tell whoever had the ears to listen and a mind to understand that such a thing defiled the soul. That for the sake of this life and the lives to come, they should not trade in flesh. 

You would think people didn’t need telling. Tian knew that that silver in the hand today weighed more than Hell tomorrow. It shouldn’t, but it did. Everyone knew about King Yan and the operation of the underworld, and they still did it. 

It was the salt conundrum all over again. Here is a terrible problem, and you can’t fix it. It takes a big change, and everyone needs to be part of it. Though, the slave trade had been reduced. Not eliminated, but lessened. By all accounts, Hanshen was the one who reported the whole salt-slave-heretic trade situation in court and persuaded the emperor to suppress it. It was the start of his rising legend as the King of Hell. 

Tian slowly crossed his wrists behind his back, standing straight on the sword as it crossed the swaying grass. Hanshen couldn’t fix the problem entirely, because he couldn’t be everywhere, and the reach of the army was very limited these days. They were simply fighting in too many places for that. 

He had thought, once before, that what you really needed was teams of Earthly cultivators racing across the steppes, guided by Heavenly cultivators providing targets from above. That was before he knew about the shamans, but the idea was still sound. A suppression force. He might not be able to stop the slave trade everywhere, but there were only so many roads into the Broadsky kingdom. He could put a daoist boot on the throat of slavers with a clean conscience.

The thought brought a smile to his lips, though a very cold one. He had always been content to be extraordinary. Since when did he accept the nonsense beliefs of others as true, or the right way to do things? Taking other humans, binding them, driving them with torture, mutilation and the threat of death to labor for you was disgusting. It was without compassion, humility or frugality. It was without the benevolence the scholar-officials like Hanshen preached.

Tian admired Liren. He liked to think he looked austere, and perhaps otherworldly, as he stood with his hands behind his back on the flying sword. Liren looked gallant. A daoist out and about, ready to vanquish the evils of the world. She hated bandits with an unholy passion. He had a strong feeling that her hate would reach slavers too. Particularly since the Long Clan was in the trade. 

Tian could put a boot on the neck of slavers with a clean conscience. Liren would do it with enthusiasm. But they couldn’t put a stop to it alone. They needed a lot of help. Cultivators, earthly realm cultivators, who could sweep the steppes and the border country, ripping out encampments and smashing caravans.

It would be easy to set up in the short term. Quite easy to lure in wandering cultivators, or the under-employed from the sects. It would be a sort of sanctioned banditry, and you got to feel like you were being virtuous and paid for it at the same time. Who has money? Merchants. How to get the money? Kill the merchants. Until there were no more merchants, and the cultivators went away. Then the merchants came back, and the cycle started all over again.

Yes, easy to set up and there would be no shortage of volunteers, but no staying power. He had been through this mental loop too many times. He blew away his frustration with a long breath, and refocused on the immediate issues. There would be grand shamans in the area of the fort, and heretics too. His instinct was always to go in quietly, moving hidden until he was ready to pounce. He looked once again at Liren’s gallant posture. 

There would be no sneaking around.

Fort Askarmand was a massive pile of rammed earth and rubble rising from the steppes. Long walls enclosed an open square, with built up structures around three of the edges. There was a tower on one wall, with tiers of rooms beneath it, stretching downward until they merged with the rest of the wall. It took Tian a long while to understand what he was seeing, because the scope of it felt so wrong. His mind insisted that his eyes were wrong, that the steppes couldn’t possibly build such a vast structure. His eyes won the fight. It was big enough to house a few thousand soldiers. He didn’t dare guess how many people were bound by those tall walls. Not that they could run even if the iron gates were open. The Yuu had the fortress surrounded.

“Am I seeing this right? It’s basically the same kind of tribal camp we just saw, but bigger. Vastly bigger.” Tian asked.

“It looks like there are a few tribes gathered here. Look, you can see pennants flying from some of the tents.” She pointed. “And there are more permanent buildings than just the fort. What do you think those buildings by the river are?”

“Forges, from the smoke. Tiny thing to be called a river.”

“It’s the steppes, and it’s a couple yards across. River.” Liren didn’t laugh, but her cheek twitched. “Are you sensing any cultivators down there? Because I am.”

Tian was too, all roughly in the earthly realm but that didn’t reassure him. It was nearly impossible to hide your vital energy in the Earthly Realm. He had already seen Heavenly Realm heretics do a decent job concealing themselves out in the field. He could only imagine what was hidden in the fort.

“What do we do now, Sis? I’ll admit I’m just going with the flow here. I’ve been going around in circles in my head, and I can’t seem to think of anything reasonable.”

“Yeah, you are overthinking things. We stampede the horses.”

Tian blinked. Then blinked again. There certainly were an awful lot of horses. He had never seen so many horses in one place. There was a short, stocky sea of them around the fortress, and solid walls of them lining the banks of the narrow river. 

“I don’t get it.”

“We can just flare our qi, and it will stampede the horses. They are hobbled, but they will still run off, or fight each other, and generally create havoc.”

“No, that part I understood. It’s the “Why?” and “How does that help?” that I’m not getting.”

“Oh, easy. The sudden chaos will flush a lot of heretics out of hiding. Then you can kill them with your darts while I rush in and stab them. We start with the Heavenly Heretics first, obviously.”

“Right. Yes. A few notes…”

“Outnumbered who-knows-how-many to one, they have unknown tools, arrays, gu, other horrible things we don’t know about, poisons and diseases beyond number-”

“We are listing problems now, not benefits.” 

Liren grinned at that, but pressed on. “The point is that we raise hell in the outer camp first. We don’t touch the fortress at all. Don’t even go near it, if we can. Kill whoever looks isolated in the camp, whoever is looking unbothered by the stampede. If we can pick off some shamans, so much the better. Now, anyone who’s pushing the Boruski is going to be powerful enough to rate a spot inside the fort, no question, and this is just one fort. But we can provoke a reaction. See who moves and how.”

“And if we do it often enough in enough places, we should start seeing some kind of coordinated response. Coordination means enough influence to affect large groups of people who don’t like listening to authority, which means we found whoever is tough enough to shift those Grand Shamans and push tribal unification. Got it. Still not seeing how we survive step one.”

“Pure hit and run. Right now, we are nobodies. Just a pair of Heavenly people floating around on swords, and we know other Heavenly cultivators don’t like making the first move if they can help it, and definitely not where their peers could capitalize on any weakness or distraction.”

“Move fast, create a ruckus, kill a few, and if we make it look like a targeted assasination, then they won’t chase us. Probably.” Tian concluded. “What do we do if they do decide to chase us? Or when we launch a second attack? Or a third?”

“We make it very obvious that we aren’t really hiding our trail. A properly paranoid person would assume that, far from the targeted assasination it first appeared to be, we are actually trying to bait them into an ambush.”

“Ah. Relying on paranoia to keep us safe.” Tian nodded, approvingly. Liren looked at him like she was worried he had developed brain issues.

“No, that’s silly. Obviously we are trying to bait them into an ambush. Did you forget, somehow, that we just robbed a warehouse? We have talismans. Binding, disorienting, explosive talismans.”

“We do?” Tian blinked. He was quite sure the warehouse just had medicinal supplies, victims, and a few random bits and bobs.

“We do. The warehouse had all kinds of strange treasures in it. The medicine was just a small part. You just didn’t look at anything else.”

That… actually was true. He had been looking purely for medicines and anything else that might be of use in saving the victims. He had given the manuals a once-over too, but didn’t remember them being anything special. He’d have to give them another look.

“I don’t know anything about setting up arrays, but I know how to paste talismans, and some of the books we captured do describe how to set up talisman traps at the Heavenly realm. We can’t flatten the fortress, but we can make them damn uncomfortable.” Liren cracked her knuckles with indecent satisfaction. “And when you get right down to it, I hate each and every person down there who isn’t in chains. I hate them individually and collectively. I hate that they are participating in this abomination, that they are profiting from it, that they respect, even idolize it. So to hell with targeted this, or clever that. We smash straight in, stack a few bodies, rush out again and see if we can’t stack a few more. Then we do it all over again, until we kill our way to someone useful. We can’t permanently end the slave trade, but we can permanantly end these particular slave traders.”

Comments

Joaquin FRIAS

Ah yes systemic problems can sometimes be slowed in particular places trough particular violence...

Deus Ex Minima

I find myself approving of Liren’s focused, pragmatic approach here. “We can’t permanently end the slave trade, but we can permanently end these particular slave traders” is a solid foundation to work from.

Roxanne Moore

The Dao of Doing Good by Removing Evil is uncomplicated

Matt DiMeo

hey warby I just noticed your patreon tiers still say they grant discord access and I think you got rid of that.

DarkSunZenith

Can't believe she'd crack her knuckles right in front of him like that 😂

zero

Ah, people you are allowed to kill.

Teach

Look, like with the theory that if you harass a little monk you might just explode, societies do change if you make something costly enough. Word spreading that two small gods have very strong opinions on slavers and you might just be found in multiple pieces if you follow the trade can lead to many people changing career paths.

David Bailey

Score one point for directness.

Noroh

I wonder if Tian can get the Pure Land Monks in on eradicating the slave trade?

DrSubterfuge

Minor editing thing: the paragraph starting with "Tian admired Liren" has some pronoun issues. There's at least one place where a "he" is present that should be a "she"

Andrew Goebel

I think he's on to something here. All we need to do is reward the earthly cultivators with something for completing tasks. We could call them, um, werits? No, that's dumb. Serits? Perits? OH! Merits! And to keep them around, we offer them something they can't get anywhere else. Our knowledge! We could have techniques they couldn't get or something. They'd spend those merits to get techniques and to trade with others. Stop me if this feels derivative, otherwise I think this could be the solution.

ranoche

Terrible plan with the traps honestly. Mine fields are considered fucked up for a reason. Either the young children of the fort are going to wonder around and get killed or the slavers are going to start using the elderly,disabled, or low value slaves as trap testers. While there definitely are evil people in the fort it shouldn't be forgotten that even evil people can be surrounded by innocents. Tian shouldn't try to out warcrime people that burn villages worth of people for enough qi to fill a grain of rice

Desert Rainbow

There is wisdom in breaking down your problems into small, manageable chunks. "The slave trade" is a gigantic, multi-headed and multi-bodied problem. "These slave traders in particular" are a known (and solveable) problem.

SlaveToMyWhims

I'm honestly tired of ending slavery being used as shorthand for moral correctness. It's sugar candy. I crave complexity. Show me escaped slaves that massacred kids, show me slavers with a heart of gold and everything in between. Being a slave does not make you virtuous. It just makes your life terrible. You can still be the worst thing that ever slithered. Also, you don't end slavery by killing the slavers. The system is self-reinforcing. You do it by changing the insentive structure. Nobody would own slaves if there wad a better, cheaper, faster way to do x and y. I mean, there's always status, vanity and sick minds, but that's easy to deal with in comparison.

Baines

how would our main characters interact with said complex slaves without it being shoehorned in? they have very little reason to interact with mortals as it is and a random aside in passing would be worse than nothing

Ano Ano

Preach sister

Leander

One of the reasons Guerilla warfare is so bloody effective.

Leander

Someone’s being edgy.

Seno

"Slavers with a heart of gold", the last point is somewhat correct but c'mon what?

SlaveToMyWhims

You think the only kind of people that ever owned slaves were moral monsters? Hopeless cartoonish villains? A lot of them were upright, honorable, pious, gentle people. Pillars of the community. Only they also owned humans. Thats the subtle horror of it. No mustache twirling needed. Humans are amazing at compartmentalizing. (This is this and that is that)

SlaveToMyWhims

Sorry for posting and deleatig repeatedly, I sausage-fingered my comment a lot. Reason i dislike phone typing

Easton Mulholland

I love how close Liren is to this quote from Going Postal by Pratchett: “Do you really think [the gallows] deters crime, Mr. Trooper?” he said. “Well, in the generality of things I’d say it’s hard to tell, given that it’s hard to find evidence of crimes not committed,” said the hangman, giving the trapdoor a final rattle. “But in the specificality, sir, I’d say it’s very efficacious.” “Meaning what?” said Moist. “Meaning I’ve never seen someone up here more’n once, sir.”

Tim Gonsalves

Will always see Liren as that cat who sits on the shelf and says, "F*** this, F*** this, and F*** that one in particular." while shoving items off, with extra oomph on that one in particular.

EvilLittleThing

One can participate in immoral, monstrous activities while also being perceived by their peers as honorable and pious. This is literally how every institutional atrocity is maintained. Not recognizing the evil you perpetuate, or justifying it by dehumanizing the victims, is a very normal kind of monstrous immorality. Saying things like "They were very fine people otherwise, and only enslaved others because it was allowed and profitable" is not the endorsement you think it is. Imagine replacing one evil with another - "They were very fine people otherwise, and only raped children because it was allowed on that island and it felt good". Slavery is bad. This has universally been acknowledged by enslaved people, and widely justified by slavers and their apologists. When the group suffering from something is like "hey this sucks butts" and the group profiting from their suffering is like "nah, you're fine", who is the trustworthy source?

Quivo

I don't know why you're assuming Tian and Liren will set up traps near enough to the fort that wandering kids can set them off. Liren's whole point was to leave an obvious trail to bait vengeful cultivators, shamans & other slaver aligned folks into traps. A trail by definition would head off well away from the fort, especially if the person who left it in their wake is fleeing reprisals after doing hit and run attacks vs the fort.

Endgame

I have to say, i really hope Hanshen is not killed by the emperor for doing what he was told to do. And if he is, his family better be left alone.

Logrus

...Until the Slaver Gods get bothered enough to intervene.

Alexis Lionel

Liren is a genius! Tian is forgetting the important bit. Yes they will come back, that doesn't mean killing slavers now, isn't a good thing. That's what you do to wind down from the strategical shit, you know. Hunt down the heretics, mutilate them and give them biological immortality as living meat sacks. Literal meat sacks, hang them up in the fort whem finished. Then kill a bunch of slavers to relax with after that medical task. Then move on to the next fort. Or in the great words of noah caldwell gervais, if you pick up a gun and start killing nazis, eventually, it stands to reason, you will run out of nazis. And what are slavers but old timey nazis

CastorInvictus

I love a protagonist with the moral clarity to understand that slavers should be killed on sight.

William Johnson

Tian's head is in knots, Liren looks to the example of Alexander & starts cutting.

Ano Ano

Yeah, moral complexity my ass. The US is currently ruled by neoconfederates. Pointing out that the proper response to slavers is vitriolic resistance is a good thing. Obviously there are still plenty of dumb assholes out there who don't understand.

Veridescent

I mean simple solution that is hard to do is change the the resource cylcle. The further simplication is using knowledge to facilitate that equilibrium, much like the use of gormet. The hard part is properly spreading and preparing such knowledge for synthesis without a investment of time into the land and culture. The actualities of the trade here are artificial and based off of scarcity. Mitigate the latter and you can kill the heretics while outcompeting them elsewhere. If they had Wang, Lin and co with them I suspect they could enact some decent shifts by by synthesis of usage of materials and spiritual interactions with say horses.

Veridescent

Does have the "occupying task force" issue if they arent integrated into cultural norms and thus wider systems that would require a less hiearchal framework. But yeah one could make a sect based off of the needs here. Functionality relies on the aformentioned framework.

SWM34F

Liren's on her John Browm arc and I'm here for it.

Donmalurkin

I mean these ones in particular are ones abducting people via combat to sell to people that they explicitly know are willing and most likely to use the people they sell them as living bug food. So yeah?

SlaveToMyWhims

You sound one of those people that can't imagine that someone can disagree with you and still be a decent person. I'd pay money to see you react to a comment that has a same tone and similar vocabulary yours does, but disagrees with you.

SlaveToMyWhims

How can so many people, presumably sane adults of at least ordinary capacity misunderstand my point? Was It that I wasn't clear? The way MC treats these particular slavers is and how he feels about them is besides the point. I'm complaining about how slavery is used in fiction in general. And this work in particular. This work is not the worst offender, far from it, but it's at fault to a point as well. Fault being is that it's using inexcusably evil, simple, unnuanced, flat picture of worst of the worst kinds of slavery MC could defeat. (typically through martial means) In order to feed him moral virtue points. It's not elegant, it's simple, and done past death.

meggleB

The whole point is one can’t have a heart of gold and enslave others, it is literally impossible. If one has a heart of gold they would have empathy and care for others and therefore not participate in the behavior. “Oh I treat my slave well, I feed and house them. And I don’t beat them. They’re happy, simple creatures and want for nothing.” Sure there can be enslavers who are less terrible than others, but they still think owning someone is okay. Slavery by definition is one person controling another using fear, pain, force, and societal acceptance.

SlaveToMyWhims

That's a bit harsh. Don't you think? I can't help feeling that some of you guys lack imagination. Shame, for avid fantasy readers. Let me help a little. We all own a pair of Nikes, right? Phones, cars, right? We know for a fact that there's plenty of abuse and sometimes actual slavery down the production line of some of our goods. Actual, modern day chattel slavery. And most of us only don't know it because we choose not to. We are a step removed. From it, sure, but we finance it regardless. We, the consumers indirectly cause it. Because of our consumer practices, and lack of care it's allowed to exist. What kind of amoral animals must we be that we just MUST use luxury non-essential garbage soaked in human blood? Monsters! Inexcusable monsters that can't possibly have a single good quality caring about................ Or at least that's what future humans, with even cleaner hands and easier lives may say about us. Their everything, from food to housing may be 3d printed and come cheap and effortless. Point is, we are in no way better than those people in any way other than education. We know better, we are still running caveman OS otherwise. I can think of a million ways anyone, saint or sinner may find themselves a slave owner. It's rarely a question between wanting to exploit other humans or not. It's almost always between that and something worse for people you care about more.

Fayhem

I like Liren's approach here a lot. Reminds me of a similarly good exchange from somebody engaged in a similar effort in another book: "You can't save all the slaves." "But if I don't try, I won't save any."

Fayhem

I've noticed a strange tendency in the readership of a lot of stories to assume that magical explosive talismans must function identically to minefields IRL. Odds are strong that these talismans are manually triggered with their qi, and nonreactive otherwise. And that they will thusly not be leaving any untriggered talismans behind for their enemies to recover and use against them in future.

Alex

Only a sith deals in absolutes. But jokes aside, I think you're somewhat missing the essence of what is being said. From my reading, Slave to my Whims is frustrated that slavery is written in fantasy so shallowly without reference to the actual depth of the subject. I could easily imagine a so called morally virtuous person forced to make morally repugnant choices under external pressures. Does that by definition make them a bad person? Maybe sometimes, but not all the time.

Isak Mark

I don't understand this chapter, why are Tian and Hong so against slavery? Why are they attacking the Yuu people? I get going against heretics as it has been described what they do to people.

Forrest Venable

I think the kingdom has slavery be outlawed (but with a significant black market) while the nomads and the heretics make significant use of it. While I don't think we know for certain, it would be reasonable for Tian and Hong to have received moral instruction speaking of its evils and their experience of heretics' practice of slavery would have cemented any such lessons As for why they are attacking the Yuu? There is currently a war going on between the nomads and the kingdom, with Tian and Hong on the kingdom's side. However they care a lot more about the heretical part of the war than the nomad one and there is an element of recognizing that they might not have the moral high ground against the nomads

Ano Ano

Why would heroes abhor slavery? What a profound mystery.

Zenopath (AEV) (edited)

Comment edits

2026-09-05 12:00 Had a random thought. How cool would it be if the big boss heretic behind the current conflict was that gross parasite gu user that nearly killed them a few books ago? Would be a fun rematch, not sure how our duo would win though.
2026-05-30 16:12

EvilLittleThing

The problem with using cultural norms to define morality is that cultural norms are typically determined by the powerful, and specifically justify cruelty and exploitation of the powerless. The true measure of atrocity is how the victims feel about it, not the perpetrators. Take the Ancient Romans, for example. They didn't really have a concept for rape. There was just sex that they agreed to and enjoyed, and violent, painful sex that was forced upon them by someone more powerful. Obviously, not having a cultural definition of rape doesn't mean it was less painful or traumatic. Rape is objectively immoral, and we know this because people who are raped really hate it, not because rapers collectively decided they should be more polite. We know slavery is objectively immoral because people hate being enslaved. Arguing that slavers - the ones leveraging their power to exploit the labor of powerless people - can stand as a measure of the morality of enslavement is a logical fallacy. And justifying it by saying "They would never have done it to REAL people" (meaning whites, in this case) is both false and also drops the bottom out of your whole argument. Powerful people justify victimizing powerless people by dehumanizing them. Their self-assessments of their own morality is not reliable. If you want to know how decent a person is, ask those they have wronged.

Baines

when has any society ever actually tried? that’s kind of the point here, the benefits are ever too attractive to the powerful few to allow the practice to truly end in America we simply put it in a pretty dress called prison labor

Al

On top of how blatantly morally awful slavery is as a practice, the Yuu in particular are selling slaves to Heretics, who are then using the slaves as laborers or raw materials. The pair are therefore, justifiably, quite nettled by the slavers.

Veridescent

Yeah general deal is A) There are different types of slavery. And B) Slavery exist in the real world because the decentralized shift of production and food systems that led up into chattel slavery were never actually dismantled. Least for the Americas its simply got distributed into the migrant worker and prison worker complexes. In Europe and India a different network also exist that is wider spread for human trafficking for usage of essentially sweat shops, call centers, and prostitution as different means of slavery. Key thing is none of these things really have been foundationally challenged. Even still they can be and have been through more local improvements compounding increasing the cost of particular actions. Its simply they have grown larger over time so they can strike the most vulnerable.

SlaveToMyWhims

Nah man, it's more simple than that. And excuse me I'll step from trans-Atlantic slavery for a bit. It's a blip in the historical slavery all thing considered. And far, far, from the worst there was. It also has nothing to do with what I was talking about. I only complained about how slavery is used in fiction. But you want a hypothetical about how a good person could end up there. Here: Each step is just lesser of 2 evils. Say you are in a just war. You won the battle GZ. BOOM!! 20 000 people surrendered!! What now!? You can't just execute them all, right? Some of them remind your son. -If you let them go, they'll be killing your men or raiding your villages as bandits within weeks. -So you imprison them. !!Trouble though!! You can't feed them, wartime rations, your own people are already borderline starving. Lucky though, it's spring! If you hurry, you can get them to grow their own food. It may even supplement your own meagre supplies. You are killing people by NOT doing it. So you turn to agricultural penal labor. All things considered, it's the mildest you can possibly be. And you DID IT! Winter turned out to be worse than you thought. In hindsight, those added harvests saved thousands of people. Prisoners included. Buahhhh... You have won the entire war. But the opposing faction disolved. many of the villages those prisoners are from no longer exist. They are also starting to cause trouble. You released some, but that spiked your bandit problem. Prisoner reintegration institutions won't even be a glint in humanity's eye for centuries. Little surprise that people in your lands that are effectively outcasts with few skills beyond violence turned to it to get what they need. marching thousands of people across land to dump them to where their country used to be is a joke. You can't possibly do it wihout mass breakouts, and the price estimates give you ulcers even if all goes well. Besides, you'd be killing them. There's nothing there. You have a problem. What to do to them. You can't keep the wartime facilities for ever. For multitude of reasons. There's a solution though... You don't like it, but you may be able to pawn those off to some of the industries that keep crying about the lack of manpower due to the war attrition. It'd pay for itself, they'd be contained and not cause trouble. They wouldn't die. In fact, you can't see it as anything but a win-win-win. You haven't gotten out of that war cheaply after all. You are still riding a simmering emergency after emergency. Again, NOT doing it would be killing people, your people. People that have already suffered more than enough. ... The years, and then generations pass, and now it's an institution. You can't possibly remove the system without blood. LOTS of blood. Meanwhile, generations that inherited it grew up with it as normal. The way you and I don't have 2 thoughts to rub together about anti-suicide nets under windows in Malasyan electronics factories. It's just how things are. Ending slavery? What an idiotic idea! You'd split the country in pieces right there and then. A super-famine and general lack of everything would hit right then. And that's only IF the institutions that grew big and powerful on it let you. Let's not even talk about the fallout of releasing what's now hundreds of thousands of military age men with a grudge into the general population. .... This is something i hammered out in 10 min off the top of my head. Hope it gave you smth to think about. It's rarely a clean choice between wanting to be good and wanting to be bad. This hypothetical started with you trying to preserve life at each step, cause least harm. But it made the hypothetical "you" a father of a meat industry. Granted, this was never an inevitable outcome, and some of the vectors are doing a lot of work. But still, very plausible, and taken entirety of human history into consideration, fairly common set of circumstances.

Ano Ano

My position on slavery is that it is abhorrent and any valuable morality demands opposing slavery. It is in fact true that people who are pro slavery cannot be decent people. It doesn't matter what tone they use to disagree though. The vileness is in the content of their position and not the phrasing.

SlaveToMyWhims

I was going to say something hurtingly condescending to you. It was a lot of text. I gave up. I'm not here to talk to you. I am mad that you dragged polarizing and irrelevant elements into the conversation. I don't care about the American politics. Most of the world doesn't and it doesn't concern the novel.

Ano Ano

Go look for slavery apologia elsewhere I guess

Al

I have a suspicion that the heretics behind the Yuu and the cultivators that are after Han are two completely different and mostly unrelated groups. They'll return from their crusade through the steppes to find that the earthly realm folks they left with Han protected him from some earthly level attackers, and now they need to go on a completely different crusade. My only evidence is that nobody involved with the Yuu or even the desert heretics seem to have any reason to care about Han, but villains within the kingdom have very strong reasons to murder a guy who can detect lies.

EvilLittleThing

Some people will literally fold themselves in half (and not the fun way) in order to rationalize cruelty. SlaveEtc wants to find lore justifying enslavement, putatively because they think it's interesting. Zenopath apparently thinks it's less awful to be sexually aroused by raping children than profit off selling child rape to perverts. I didn't really want to know these things about other readers of this story, but they have made it quite difficult to ignore. Where is Liren when you need her?

Travis G

Noah Caldwell-Gervais mentioned, I've found my people

Easton Mulholland

I’m with … uh, Evil on this one. The defining characteristic of slavery is treating people like things. Once you’re in that “slaves are farm equipment” or “slaves are industrial machinery” zone … it doesn’t really matter how genteel the slaver appears, or how violent the slave gets in response. Sure, historical slaves have nuance … not all historical slave owners seem to have thought of slaves as things; some seem to have thought of slaves more like employees. Some people justified slavery as punishment for crimes, so slaves start as literal bad guys. There is even legal slavery for criminals in the US. (See Slavery by Another Name by Blackmon). That doesn’t make it right. Slavery tends toward: raping girls and selling their children (chattel slavery in the American South), sending your “enemies” — including civilians — to death camps (Nazis), finding crime where there is none so you can get more slaves (Jim Crow), and selling daughters because money is more important than family (Exodus 21:2-12). This is Tian’s and Liren’s issue. They believe in moral character: Treat Others as They Would Want to be Treated. (Or, if you prefer this described as a Dao: The Sage is always good at helping people, and so he does not abandon people.)

SlaveToMyWhims

That's besides the point brother. Most of what you said stands. My point was and still is, that slavery is used to score cheap points. It's formulaic, boring, predictable and self-indulgent.

Andrew Goebel

A sect?! Whoa whoa whoa, who said sect? No one here likes sects. Nope, no how.

EvilLittleThing

So it's less evil to pay to watch children be raped than get paid to rape children? Vile

Veridescent

Cool, look into the history of movement restriction, wage theft, debt and id confiscation for migrant workers in the americas. Relates to specifically debt and wage slavery. If you want systematic comparison you could look at the laws for prison labor and sharecropping. They arent far apart.

David

Doesn't Moist show up there more than once, canonically?

Easton Mulholland

Although he’s the same person, as Ventinari says, Arthur Spangler was hung on the gallows. But also, no, Moist never returns to the gallows. So, it seems like a pretty good deterrent either way.