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not LEADING with the unused strip at the top, because unlike most of these, this one wasn't an EARLY version, it came much much later

Anyway. So while writing all this material last fall, I would, as per, like, always, slip my material day-to-day as I finished it to my wife. She's got Cheating Trauma (and said i could say so here) and so I looked at her as my barometer on a lot of this stuff. Day to day, as the story progressed through the Listening to Paramore and the Laundry Part 2 and whatnot, she would alternate, day to day, between "ARE THEY GONNA CHEAT???? :(" and "GODDAMMIT WHY HAVEN'T THEY KISSED YET MAKE THEM KISS" which felt to me like I was riding the line well enough.

When we got to today's (tomorrow's on the regular site)'s strip (seen above), she thought it was extra more-wrong than usual, and it rubbed her a bit the wrong way, but it was funny, so. Like, Maggie's particular boundaries are: okay, so they kissed, and that's not great, but they're suddenly figuring out their sexualities and you get a bit of grace from that, but you've got, like, 24 hours to sort things out with who you've wronged. Her Cheating Trauma is lying-based. It's not the crime, it's the cover-up.

and unfortunately, joyce had gone to sort things out with joe, but actually not told him, and physically progressed the relationship, and then returned back to Dorothy

NOW she was leading him on! which is WORSE! BY A LOT!!!

And like I said: it chafed a little, and it made her think less of Joyce as a person, but, like, yeah. Character makes bad decision! She didn't think strongly enough about it at the time to raise an alarm.

But then as the strips began to publish, Maggie got more and more worried about reader reaction, and there was a crescendo of VERY UPSET PEOPLE. Including people whose opinions Maggie respects! She wanted other people she likes to also like these two doofuses. And sometime last week, Maggie felt I had to, like, patch this somehow. Come up with an alternate version, to avoid The Reader Backlash Of All Time.

and so, last week, i came up with this:

I replaced Joe with Danny. Joe isn't home. Joyce receives the blanket instead from Danny. Danny... does his best to provide all the same exposition (and completely-accidental on-the-nose shaming)

Much of the same outcome (Joyce returns without having broken up with Joe, has the Blanket Of Shameful Meaning) but without the Actual Bad Thing Accomplished.

And, of course, subsequent strips would've had to also have been massaged to have a non-ruffled-up Joyce and whatnot.

BUT IT IS A BAD STRIP. It's stretchy! Danny shouldn't know all this stuff. Joe's been removed from providing his own exposition, and himself from the story here at all, which felt... worse to Joe, even, somehow. It has all of the same parts, but it's missing the teeth. Sure, I'm having Joyce do one less terrible thing, but, like, while sacrificing the potency of the moment. So, like, at this point, I figure, whatever, personally, I think I'd rather have the better strip and suffer through the reader backlash.

anyway, a few days ago, maggie walks in, says (paraphrased) "okay, i came across comments saying that Joyce needs to remain PURE NEVER DONE ANYTHING WRONG PERFECT ANGEL object of personal (horny internet male) interest and is being ruined by the misogynist jerk writing her right now." And that she supports women's rights AND women's wrongs. "Pull the trigger!" she shouted (not paraphrased). She joined Spite Mountain, becoming fully a Sicko.

And so we ultimately kept the original version of the strip.

sidebar: while I was creating the Terrible Danny Version, I also created.... ULTIMATE GOBLIN JOYCE VERSION:

i showed this to maggie and she collapsed in inability-to-breathe-due-to-laughter

please enjoy

and here are your complimentary helmets for when this runs on the regular site tomorrow

Files

Comments

P J Upton

Thanks, I really need that helmet

Sajuuk-Khar

Willis! I’m shocked! You can’t suggest that third one, that suggests Joyce can see invisible objects!

Harold

Just imagine if you’d somehow published the Danny’s Weenus version by mistake

Jozan

Imma stay out of the drama besides saying you are doing a damn good job Willis and I both trust your writing and judgment on the story. Thank you for everything, and also a standard DAMN YOU WILLIS

Kazo

It'd be too weird for Joyce to actually remember Danny's name anyway

Arlo C-J

Bring Danny into the fuckpile, coward

David M Willis

already messed up and had her remember danny's name earlier

Ste Saunders

That last version is hilarious, and if it was anywhere near April 1st should have been the version on the main site just to see how many people it caught out

Grace Serenity

I was thinking you wouldn't change the punchline as I read the alternate version and then you went and did it you magnificent bastard! No notes, 10/10!

Naff

Before I finished reading I thought you had posted the “harsher” version by mistake and were gonna run the softer one tomorrow. I think you both made the right call, but man those comments tomorrow are gonna be a war zone.

Arlo C-J

I want a katamari style pileup of the whole cast with the hat resting tastefully on the top

Heatth

Oh, hey, Maggy's boundaries about cheating are very similar to my own. I definitively agree what Joyce did in tomorrow's strip is a lot worse, morally speaking. But, yeah, it is a more interesting story. The Danny version just seems fake.

David M Willis

trying to imagine the subsequent strip where danny has to go apologize to sal because, uh, joyce sucked his dick

Ste Saunders

This could be an entire alternate storyline

Calder Johnson

Again, majorly appreciate the insight into the creative process! It's interesting to think about in terms of my own reactions. I think that growing emotional tension between "OMG ARE THEY GOING TO CHEAT", and "OMG MAKE THEM KISS" clearly has been energizing for a lot folks (in uh...somewhat, uh... polarizing ways) but it mostly just made me feel a bit exhausted and sad. Which is to say, it wasn't at all what I thought was a bad story beat, just one I found personally draining. But now that the Signal (Dumpster) Fires have been lit atop Spite Mountain? Strap on your helmets, Gondor calls for aid and the Sickos will answer. I am living for this mess!

Kelly (they-them)

Despite seeing her in the comments multiple times, it did not occur to me that Maggie read the comment section. For some reason, that feels like more pressure than Willis reading comments. Like, Ah fuck. I'm gonna get a bad grade in being a fan from Maggie, David Willis's number one fan! Something that is both possible to attain, and normal to fear

Sajuuk-Khar

Unfortunately, Sal knows where Willis lives and can target his arteries with literally surgical precision

Brendan T

As someone who's been reading and a patron for years now, but never really dove into discourse and community stuff some of this is so funny to me because every bad thing Joyce and Dorothy are doing feels perfectly in character to me. It's people who have been propped up by their community (and each other) as paragons whose sense as such was based more on circumstances than fortitude and who are in the process of changing while not having the actual skills to avoid hurting people in that process. It all feels very right to me in that I adore them but also want to swat them with a rolled up newspaper. Anyway, I think it's good and I loved today's strip as is, glad you didn't half-measure it.

Sajuuk-Khar

Things fall apart, the center cannot hold

5099 5618 v2.0

My $0.02: Joyce's decision made sense. It was not a *good* decision. I don't *agree* with that decision. i have *no idea* how she'll deal with the blowback from it all. But it does make sense, given all the stuff going on and how people get when they panic during stressful situations (and if you've never dumped someone, before, that *definitely* counts). "Everyone deserves their mistakes", and such. The freedom to make them, and the responsibility of cleaning up the resulting mess. (Also yeah, the last one did make me LOL)

zee

Oh no, she got a taste for infidelity and now she can't stop herself!

Maybeeus

The weenus that was once the throbbing core of an entire saga...

Maggie Willis

Perfect fan, 10/10, no notes. ❤️

5099 5618 v2.0

Also, Joyce's slightly tousled hair in the last panel was a fun detail.

David M Willis

personal rule of thumb is: if it is serious, joyce will remember danny's name

Harold

Now That’s What I Call A Secret Weenus!

zee

I would pay so much money just to see that get posted to the main site for 12 hours and then replaced with the real strip. Thinking about the fallout of the "Joyce just keeps cheating" + gaslighting of the readership combo has me in a giggle fit

Sajuuk-Khar

Sal: …Wonderbread, Ah ain’t mad, I’m just—naw, fuck it, Ah’m actually pretty fuckin’ mad.

Kelly (they-them)

Anyway, to comment on the actual content here, you definitely made a good decision in keeping the original strip. Both for the reasons you laid out and also because it continues the suspense better. Joyce doesn't want to break up with Joe. Not just because it's a difficult thing to do, but because she earnestly wants to keep dating Joe. I forget if Joyce or Joe have used the big L word yet, but Joyce clearly has great feelings for Joe AND Dorothy. She's probably more into Dorothy, but it isn't as if Joe was her beard or she was dating him purely to distract from and deny her feelings for Dorothy. Joyce blowing Joe's weenus heightens the conflict more, could be argued as cheating on ~Dorothy~ at this point, and continues dangling the possibility of polyamory. It's a good narrative move. Although, it's disappointing that we don't get the version of DoA in which Wears a Hat joins the polycule

Sajuuk-Khar

I snickered like the evil sicko gremlin I am at the sex hair

Grace Serenity

But her giving Danny a blowie is definitely 100% canon

5099 5618 v2.0

"Now, was that civilized? No, clearly not. *Fun*, but in no sense civilized." (/Gremlins 2)

Sajuuk-Khar

“It turns out that what the world needed to achieve perfect LGBTQ space communism was for everyone who reads Dumbing of Age to get so angry at the idea Joyce blew Danny that they tore down the world order in a blind rage”

Maybeeus

@David M Willis ROUND THREE

Sajuuk-Khar

I’m just imagining Danny with “WEARS A HAT!” as his Smash Bros. Ultimate intro

Waifu Purplebutt

Oooooohhhh, the *Dorothy* spite angle with Joyce putting her mouth on Danny's weenus, now THAT'S gotta hurt!

Kelly (they-them)

I imagine that Joyce intentionally forgets Danny's name. Perhaps - whether consciously or not - she doesn't like that he used to date Dorothy

Kelly (they-them)

This is amazing! Now my Web Comic grades are good enough to go to the end of semester pizza party!

Heatth

I am curious where the slip up was. I went through the Joyce+Danny backlog I missed it. I can believe that at some point the gag became a personal in-joke for Joyce though.

Sajuuk-Khar

See, I always figured it’s not intentional, it’s just like, Danny’s twink radiation or something, or the power of the hat, or interdimensional interference that causes him to be shrouded to the Joycean eye, all covered in wind like Excalibur in Fate/stay night

Daisy

Billie is going to high-five Joyce so hard when she hears how bad this shit went down. Messy Bitch soul resonance

Logibear

The next four strips should just be people subbing in for each other, ending with Dorothy subbing in for Walky who was subbing in for Sal who was subbing in for Danny who was subbing in for Joe.

Harold

And let’s not forget Becky, who just subs

Astariel

I love these looks behind the scenes. And yeah, the comments are going to get even worse tomorrow, aren't they?

Astariel

Just imagine how jealous Joyce's alternate universe self would be.

Logibear

That or it ends with a Sentient Weighted Blanket handing Joyce a Joe Body pillow

Logibear

"Blowback" huehuehue

Ria

Ouch wow jesus the danny version does suck a lot!! I'm very thrilled that you went with the one you did, it was kinda feeling for a second like there was a villain differential in Joyce's favor. Now we're back to the whirling, fluctuous maelstorm of perfect sicko equilibrium 😌

GundamBradley

You and Maggie were both very correct, I think. It just feels way more impactful with Joe, and a whole lot less contrived. Joyce spontaneously blowing Danny is hilarious, though, and god, that'd have made the entire situation go thermonuclear.

Smoochie

First she wears Sal’s jacket, then she wears Sal’s boyfriend…out

Amós Batista

Jesus Christ Mary Joseph Twelve apostles

Mariah

I appreciate this I have seen in recent years media has become very watered down and sanitized in that writers are terrified to let there characters be flawed and make mistakes. Even worse people assume that if a character does something bad then the writers must support their actions. Its just lead to a lot of media to be very bland so I appreciate you going with your original version.

Railway Series Book Club

honestly you should run the Goblin version of this strip the main site, just to see what the reaction it gets. 3000 comments, at least

Smoochie

Joyce blowing Danny because it’s the only way she can simultaneously hero-worship Sal but get Joe to break up with her.

GPanda

the most unrealistic thing here is Joyce remembering Danny’s name

David M Willis

It's during the protest, where Joyce notes that Dorothy said she'd said she'd never give up Yale for any one person. Not Danny, not Walky. Felt off to call him Hat Guy there.

David M Willis

Alternately, Joyce knows Dorothy dumped A Danny, but hasn't connected that to Hat Guy yet.

Calder Johnson

Well, tearing down the world order was on Dorothy's list...

Mariah

I do appreciate that because there is this weird biphobia where if a female character starts a relationship with a girl fans act like her past attraction to men does not exist. The owl house fandom is especially guilty of this.

Albi

that's me, the dick-sucking goblin

berryquiche

OK fully Team Sicko for Ultimate Goblin version

Grace Serenity

Right? Everyone knows you can't write anything you don't fully agree with or participate in! I mean the writers for Breaking bad had to be running a meth cartel in NM and the writers for Dexter were obviously serial killers! /s

Railway Series Book Club

i mean honestly it'd be really funny if she never forgot his name and was just fucking with him by only ever calling him Hat Guy in his presence

Fart Captor

I'm certain someone that someone early on predicted Joyce was gonna snap and bang like, the entire football team but I can't remember who it was to find the strip I think it was either Ruth or Billie?

Jasmijn Wellner

> Ouch wow jesus the danny version does suck a lot!! It does, which is ironic because it doesn't feature any sucking

Shane Wegner

It was Ruth! And I believe her colorful phrasing was “Joyce would discover sex and then proceed to spin on a variety of dicks like the Tasmanian devil”! Ha Ruth! Not just dicks!

Shane Wegner

The Joe one is noted for its courage. “I did it” lands much more meaningfully than “IF he had been there, I WOULD HAVE done it”.

Daniel S

Always nice to peek behind the curtain, thanks! (Ya sickos are sick)

Daniel S

Team Joyce/Danny vindicated at last

Daniel S

And then Sal shows her a weighted jacket she got for Joyce? Probably best to cut that plot before it spirals...

Sajuuk-Khar

Hey Willis, out of curiosity: I see a lot of people saying you’re quotable as that Dorothy and Joyce are “endgame”, as in, once they’re together they’re gonna get married, have a million beautiful children, etc, and they won’t break up. Now I do not want to know if this is true, that’s a spoiler, etc. I just want to know if you said it, because it seems like not your style and I would love to tell the people quoting this they are wrong.

Maude Reads Things

You sound like a sweet and considerate spouse, Willis and I can appreciate the Danny strip. If the goal had been to torture us by dragging out actually seeing Joe and Walky and keep us in suspense, it'd work great. It doesn't have the punch of seeing Joe and having Joyce dig herself in deeper though and I like that that's the route we went with. I sympathize. Sometimes it's hard to balance the needs of the story vs 'this will have the wrong impact on the audience and go somewhere I didn't intend'. That said, sometimes the audience is being unreasonable. I'm not saying it's unreasonable to be upset about the cheating, especially if, like me, you really liked Joe/Joyce and Dorothy/Walky, but that sexist load up there also probably would've made ME full team sicko out of spite.

David M Willis

Lots of characters are endgame until they're not! Which is a wrinkle in ongoing narratives. Sometimes I think up newer, better endgames!

Harold

@David M Willis: Well, congratulations, now I'm worried about Becky and Dina

SmartAlec105

It's interesting to see your thoughts here on the backlash. I'll start by saying I'm overall interested in where this is going and any negative feelings I get from it are just a sign of how good the story is and how invested in the characters I am. That said, I just realized something behind a bit of what I don't like about how this has been going. Joyce and Dorothy seem so confident that they want to be with each other now. There's not a hint of them waffling about it or overthinking which feels out of character for both of them. They just did something huge but they don't seem to be wondering if they're doing the right thing by being together. It makes it feel like their prior relationships weren't anything significant because they just got completely bulldozed by this new, 100% certain relationship.

shiftdruid

alternate world where the last strip is accidentally the one that runs and the site servers burst into flames by 10:45 a.m. Eastern

shiftdruid

it do be like that sometimes. even if the outcome is uncertain, it feels like the stars align, yknow?

Calder Johnson

I always assumed the 'end game' couples were whoever happened to still be together at the moment Willis dies of old age.

Harold

@SmartAlec105: Strictly looking at it from Joyce's perspective, she's been inexplicably drawn to Dorothy from the beginning; Dorothy's revelation that she's an atheist almost sent her running, but something pulled her back and made her think, "No, this is not a dealbreaker - I want to be around this person and get to know her." Today, the pieces all came together and Joyce suddenly realized WHY, and it hit her like a goddamn freight train.

Niamh Noelle Williams

I just want to say, as a longtime fan, that I love this current direction and am honestly a bit shocked at how polarizing it's been. It's messy! It's supposed to be messy! As someone who at times approached JohnLock Conspiracy levels of conspiracy brain about Joyce/Dorothy, I could not be happier that it's happening in such a fucked up, dramatically juicy way. Characters are at their most compelling when their flaws take over, and I'm rubbing my hands together in anticipation for how the rest of this plays out.

Stathis N.

I hate cheating, but I really can't bring myself to 'hate' the characters at the moment. It's a complicated situation and they are trying to do the right thing, even if they fail some more, down the line. Also they are barely adults. I'd give them a lot of slack. And also, this is Dumbing of Age, not Perfect of Age. ;)

Harold

There is likely to be much rubbing as the rest of this plays out

thejeff

It also seems more reasonable as a kind of impulsive reaction. It being a statement of intent almost makes it more serious?

thejeff

I do think "For when he's not there to do it himself" is a better line than what Joe actually said, but I also think it would have been a little off coming from Joe directly.

HueStL

Very glad it's the Joe version. It's easier to have sympathy for a character who's going to have regrets when they're my age, than one who the Fates keep intervening to keep technically innocent. Also Danny feels too tall.

Shane Wegner

I do get the feeling Joyce is like a kid in a candy/toy shop, just chasing all the fun things after a lifetime of scolding about how evil all the sexy and romantic things are. I don’t feel particularly mad at her, just adults are supposed to control themselves when they agreed to and it would hurt other people.

Russell Wolf

I'm confused by the last strip because when did Joyce learn Danny's name?

Carla Viz

I like the messiness, I'm not here to watch perfect people always make the right decision!

Silas Murray

The ultimate goblin joyce version is giving me Roomies! flashbacks

Silas Murray

I really dont get why people are upset by this arc. Isn't "Joyce does bad things sometimes but will always do what's right in the end because she's absolutely good at heart" like, kind of her whole character synopsis? Are the people who are shocked about Joyce doing a Bad Thing forgetting the. Uh. Ethan Conversion Arc?

Silas Murray

He wear platforms whenever he needs to do something in place of Joe. To maintain the energy.