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Early update for August 11, 2025 (Patreon)

Published:
2025-08-10 03:55:00
Imported:
2026-06

Content

and it's paladins with a steel chair!

Files

Comments

Minzoku Bokumetsu

SARAH CARES ABOUT JOE THE WORLD IS ENDING or is the old universe idk

Joeblow

Damm right!

Sajuuk-Khar

Hahahahaha holy shit It BEGINS

el

deserved! you can always count on sarah

GPanda

THANK YOU SARAH!!!

Sajuuk-Khar

Also damn this is some delicious crow I’m eating, I genuinely thought Sarah was gonna be more removed but NO! She GIVES A SHIT! She’s invested! Oooh numnumnumnum.

Greg Willickers

Damn it Joyce you are supposed to be a frustratingly, inspiringly *good* person for your roommate and you're blowing it

Logibear

Hooooooooo boy. Sarah cutting right to the heart of the matter. Do you reckon Joyce was thinking that she would be breaking her big sisters heart as well?

Heatth

Well, it needed to be said

Anna Phylaxis

haha i can't wait to see how the paladins take this, after the shit that's been said in comments the last couple of weeks about you and yr intentions

Smoochie

Sarah—leader of the Paladins Billie—leader of the Sickos

GPanda

Joyce and Dorothy have arrived at Found out station after departing from fuck around junction

Kelly (they-them)

I was not expecting this reaction from Sarah at all

Sajuuk-Khar

You know how I said the lead up, the last strips of Only Exception, were like the Trinity countdown? Today we see the mushroom cloud. Today, as Ken Bainbridge said, we are all sons of bitches.

Jeremy AR

Hey, almost as the people getting all on a twist about the comic "condoning" cheating just needed to be fucking patient! Who could had guess?! (The comment section test my patience, which is already pretty low)

Thunderking8

I AGGRESSIVELY AGREE WITH SARAH! Joe doesn't deserve this

Logibear

Up until Billie learns that Dorothy and Walky haven't broken up yet. Alice is the Leader of the Sickos though, she is the Patron Saint of the sickos.

Omnithea

Ah. Poor, Oracular Sarah. Doomed to be the Arbiter of Justice.

Sajuuk-Khar

but Jeremy, INFIDELITY APOLOGISM

Jeremy AR

It's such s delicious meal. My congrats to the chef. Give them a little kiss

MrShoggoth

And this is why Sarah is the best person to have found out first.

Sajuuk-Khar

I know, right?! She’s genuinely upset! It’s wild!

Bronxden

Oh i fucking called it. Sarah not trying to be around this BS but also not letting them get off because she was wrong and grew to care because she seen how both of them was changing for the better and how Joe was becoming better...This is heartbreaking because the one person that didnt believe in you in the beginning is now your biggest champion.

KittyKai

... Holy shit, I was expecting Sarah to be mad or disappointed - I was NOT expecting her to be UPSET by it. That... Actually hurts a lot more-

Hibiscus Stitch

She’s right. He doesn’t deserve that. I hope everyone can figure themselves out soon. And I hope the answer is throuple

Heatth

I will say though, saying "he is good for you" in the context of a relationship that Joyce is breaking up kinda bothers me. It kinda sounds like Sarah is saying "you should date that person because I think it is best for you" and I kinda hate it. It is one thing to say "I think that person is bad for you, you will get hurt and you should break up". It is often overstepping but I can agree with the overall sentiment. But I think the idea of dictating who one should be dating is weird. I mean, it is not like Joyce is expressing doubt if she should date Joe or not, she is expressing her intent of breaking up, so I think that line is uncomfortable here. Which is not to say I don't understand Sarah's position. I fully expected her to scold Joyce and I think it should be said. But that line in particular doesn't sit right with me.

Jeremy AR

Yiu better believe i gonna be insufferable about it if they still bring it out. And they cannot do the "Oh he changed it because of backlash" because the buffer is a year long and putting new stuff is a huge hassle.

Waifu Purplebutt

OOOOOOOH my god, this is hype as fuck. I had several people say Sarah wouldn't take Joe's side, or that she wouldn't take anyone's side, or that she'd support Joyce' decision - this gives me the righteous validation that I have been craving for so long.

Waifu Purplebutt

Reaping: FUCK! NO!!! WHO COULD HAVE FORESEEN THIS!?!?

David M Willis

There are some things that've changed, and it is a huge hassle, but this isn't one of 'em!

Kelly (they-them)

I was expecting her to already be done with the sneaking around and the teen drama of it all, but not care this much and in this way.

Heatth

No, but you see. Joyce is the main character. And at the end of the arc she will likely still be dating Dorothy and not Joe. If she is happy in a relationship that started with cheating it is apologia. The only way to make it right is if Joyce and Dorothy are miserable forever or they go back to date Joe and Walky.

5099 5618 v2.0

(/slice) (°__°) (°_//_°) (•_/ /_•)

C

Sarah's not wrong in some regards, but if Joyce wants to be with Dorothy, that's her right (but yes, do break things off with Joe first, or have a conversation with him about your feelings and desires).

Jeremy AR

And they didn't even get to fuck!

Heatth

Yeah. She is personally hurt on behalf of Joe.

Sajuuk-Khar

This is the mess! This! Is! The! Mess!!

Sajuuk-Khar

You were right, man! You called it like a phone!

Sajuuk-Khar

I was completely off base and I’m thrilled about it!

Jeremy AR

You got me on the first half, i thought you were being unironic, this place has broke my brain.

Jay

YEAAAA SARAH! I KNEW YOU WERE MY FAVOURITE FOR A REASON!!! CHEW THEM OUT

C

"Dammit Joyce, I started caring about Joe's feelings last night! Let me at least be decent at it for a week!"

Aviyara

Hah, called it. Literally a week ago.

Harold

@Logan Mathieson: Alice is just off-panel, staring wide-eyed as she sips another soda

Uniquitous

God damned right, Sarah!

Heatth

Yeah, I actually expect Billie to be upset on behalf of Walky. She was fully ready to rat Joyce out to him before making sure he wasn't dating Dorothy already during the "Laundry" incident.

Gale Tazzin

I don't think she's expressing a preference for Joe over Dorothy, she's expressing a preference for Joyce to be moral. Sarah has always been the most upset by Joyce straying from her virtues (the actual virtues, not the religious ones). Like she pushed the hardest for Joyce to make up with Becky, and this is in the same vein

Jeremy AR

It's Sarah with the steal chair!

Jay

Sarah stocks are on a rapid rise, buy while they're cheap!

Uniquitous

A much deserved pain.

Harold

@Kelly (they-them): After the gym scene she shared with Joe yesterday (in comic time), I'm not as surprised. She actually *likes* Joe now, and she likes Joe and Joyce together.

Jay

NO PATIENCE, ONLY THE NOW!

KaylaZX

it's a bad day to be a sicko of the "i hope jakey dies" variety

Ria

YES... HA HA HA... YES!

Andrea Andrew

Ouch. I love these two together, but man. Sarah didn’t let them have any relief. She is kinda right.

Sajuuk-Khar

I think this is the most raw emotion we’ve seen from Sarah ever and I love it! It’s really good! And the “I WAS WRONG!” GIRL LET DOWN HER ARMOR. Holy shiiiiiiiiit.

Jay

Nonono, id they're miserable with each other* forever

Heatth

It is the wording that bothers me. Like, if she had said "you are better than this" or something. But the "Joe is good for you", in the present tense, in this context that sounds weird to my ears.

5099 5618 v2.0

@Omnithea Being right too early does often suck, it's true :-/

Edwin I Callahan

It occurs to me Sarah is so angry, perhaps, about Joyce betraying Joe because Sarah was betrayed at some point in her life and there was damage. Bad damage. We could be in for a deep dive into a dark chapter of the Sarah Clinton story.

Jeremy AR

It's more beautiful that i could had imagined

Logibear

Or, and hear me out on this one.... Fuck Pile?

Jay

I honestly thought Sarah would be disappointed but overall apathetic but I guess I've been reading with my eyes covered cause this totally fits Sarahs new character arc

Heatth

Oh, yeah, she had a boyfriend who cheated on her with her sister right? I forgot about that. Yeah, it might be kinda personal for her.

Harold

@Sajuuk-Khar: As a wise man once said, it'll do till the mess gets here

Alexis Smith

This is the best thing either of them could have been told and I'm so happy. Fuck cheating.

Dan Rabin

I admit that I could allow Sarah to be more of a neutral truth-speaker, but her position her is certainly within character and speaks its own truth. Since Joyce and Dorothy are speaking as a couple, they appear individually smaller on the page than Sarah, whose appearance is tightly framed—her arms are excluded, so we see her face- and head-acting, while the preceding strips showed her crossed arms. Joyce and Dorothy use their hands and arms at first to assert cute-couple status; in their second panel Dorothy uses gestures defensively while Joyce attempts a counterattack paired with a forefinger gesture. I certainly don't deny the cuteness of the first panel, especially Dorothy's little smile as she dons her glasses, but their power of cuteness is as nothing in the face of Sarah's firmly-delivered message. Sarah, on the other hand, doesn't know that Joe has researched Dorothy's apparent attraction to Joyce. We didn't see him take notice of his findings on either of the previous two nights, but that doesn't mean he has thought nothing further of the issue.

Ali Youngman

YEEESSSSSS. We love this Sarah!

Logibear

Fuck Pile! Fuck Pile!

Ali Youngman

She’s absolutely right. The only thing worse than cheating is being actively aware that what you’re doing is wrong and making efforts to hide it. I love Dorothy and Joyce, but they’re being dumb excited teenagers, and fucking things up here.

Heatth

The true leader of the Sickos is Amber. She will be laughing all the way to Walky's rebound bed.

Tessea

As happy as i am for Dorothy and Joyce, Sarah is absolutely right. Yes, they had a super romantic first kiss (despite the situation) But while being dumb teens in an exciting new dynamic explains their behavior and lack of patience, they still should have had a little more self-control to talk to the others first. I feel that Sarah is a bit heartbroken at the moment, too. Her perfect adopted-ish little sister is suddenly doing severely flawed normal person stuff, and I think Sarah thought better of her.

JB Robinson

this will be the most painful band-aid pull of all time, I'm here for it

KittyKai

SERIOUSLY. That expression on the last panel... FFFFHHHUUUUUUUUUU-

Smoochie

You know what the most dark sided part of it? Joyce proved to Sarah that her judgment about Joe is correct, to which Sarah in the here and now knows even if Joyce’s positive spin and trust in others usually hits right? This is the one bridge too far.

SmurfJuice

I suspect no one else in the room is wondering why the girls are assuming a break-up is the ONE obvious solution to the problem of conflicting attractions, instead of it being the "quick fix" and shortcut to not having to think about a difficult situation too hard, that it actually is... It doesn't actually solve the problem. Both Joyce and Dorothy have expressed varying degrees of satisfaction with where their het relationships have been going, and have at the same time been struggling with a mutual attraction that neither was ready to admit they were gay enough to have. Why is ending the earlier relationships perceived as a solution at all? Walky's casual about it, and Joe's exploring the idea of commitment. (And Dorothy is dealing with the possiblity of not being ready for commitment, while Joyce doesn't seem to be thinking about the future much at all.) This indiscretion doesn't have to mean the end of any of these relationships, if they'll just *discuss* where they're at, in a context other than panic. The thing that's good is that *someone* is now talking about this with at least half of the people involved, to help them sort things out. The perhaps regrettable thing is that Sarah is immediately saddling them with the knee-jerk, mildly toxic notion that people who're still exploring their sexuality and romantic inclinations need to opt for the nuclear option of blowing up one relationship in favor of the others when they find themselves torn about what they want. So, it'll be interesting to see where that will go, I guess. EDIT: I get that the "betrayal" is of their BF's trust, but I also get that it doesn't mean they don't still also love them. The important thing here is that they find out how their BFs feel, and then be respectful in how they react about it. (Which doesn't mean "just doing what they want", either. Respect is not the same thing as obedience.)

Megh

But if you're a sicko like me that just wants maximum drama today is an amazing day!

5099 5618 v2.0

@Dan Rabin See also: Okrent's Law ("The quest for balance creates imbalance, because sometimes things are true.") Neutrality sometimes is not possible. Maintaining self respect requires calling things as you see them, regardless of where you go from there.

Jeremy AR

If it makes you fell better you wouldn't be the only one doing that.

KaylaZX

and the sicko solidarity cheers me right back up on this beautiful sunday 🥰

Jesse

There in that dorm room, in Bloomington they say, Sarah’s pupils grew three sizes that day.

GPanda

I do agree with the Joyce being the main character point but not for the reasons you’ve mentioned. Like I was mainly worried Joyce and Dorothy might get let of the hook lightly by their friends with only a slap on the wrist because they are main characters because realistically this would shake up the friendships in their group as the fault lines spread across it widely (as well as the framing and the whole protest thing). And because willis has been building towards this for awhile with some others noticing they might just shrug and go with a “should have seen it coming” reaction. I’m glad Sarah seems to be pointing out how unfair this is to Joe because it does give me hope Becky and Dina who have been closer to Joe longer then Sarah will be more mad at Joyce cheating then Joyce being into girls just not Becky. I’m still a bit concerned about Walky given Sal’s indifferent reaction because like your brother was just cheated on but maybe she doesn’t know Dorothy and Walky are a thing again unless I’ve forgotten something

HenryVolt

Damn you know something is up when Sarra is actually concerned and is willing to admit she was wrong for once. look if you're going to break up with your current partner to pursue something else just do it, if you change your mind and decide to call off your affair then alright, hell if you want to try to form some sort of Polycule and just group date then go ahead and take the gamble...But ANYTHING is better than dating multiple people at once and keeping them in the dark about it, that's universally a disaster in any relationship.

AE Gonzalez

Thus, the napalm begins to fall.

5099 5618 v2.0

@Sajuuk-Khar "Ah, the suffering. The sweet, sweet suffering."

GPanda

I suppose that’s karma in a way

Heatth

Anyway, Sarah's reaction is great and all, but I want to talk about that first panel for a bit. First, amazingly self-centered "see, I completed my character arc, isn't that great? And I didn't even overstepped too much, aren't you proud?". Great oblivious Joyce moment. But "we *finally" kissed"? That is interesting choice of words. I really want to hear for how long Joyce realized she wanted to kiss Dorothy. Is she talking in retrospect? Or she had realized it already a while ago and just kept hidden? I am really curious.

Railway Series Book Club

Joyce's words here re: kissing Dorothy are interesting. "Finally kissed, after wanting to for so long." I suppose any amount of conscious build-up to that moment was going to feel like forever, but I do wonder if Joyce is merely speaking with retroactive clarity or if she's been Actually Aware of her feelings for an amount of time predating the Paramore Vibes Sesh. I'm desperate for her to prize open the steel trap that is her mind with a crowbar at this point! INFODUMP ABOUT HOW MUCH YOU LOVE YOUR GIRLFRIEND ALREADY, IT'LL BE CUTE!!! Sarah's response to this information is exactly what I was expecting. Slightly more paladin-flavored than I'd expected, but Joyce did just goad her with "isn't this what you wanted" so like, it tracks.

Gale Tazzin

honestly "emotional vulnerability" is Sarah's finishing move

Buck Caldwell

OK, I realize I'm 36 years out of the "dating" scene, but is all dating seen as "exclusive" these days? Granted, communication is absolutely foremost and key, and that's what's missing here, but - can't they keep multiple relationships going? Is that not a thing considered these days?

Heatth

Lol we wrote the same post at the same time.

Megh

I was just about to comment on that line too! I said something a few days ago about how I suspect Joyce realized she likes Dotty some time before the Paramore scene and that reaffirms it for me! It is possible she's talking in retrospect tho like you mention Either way I hope we find out soon!

DiDi-chan

We were right! Called it.

GundamBradley

This is really strong stuff. I like that Joyce is trying to rationalize herself out of this, and that Sarah isn't having any of it.

Heatth

I honestly haven't seem that many sickos of that variety, to be honest. I see more people assuming that was the only reason people were cheering for Joyce and Dorothy.

Vivian

Now I'm starting to imagine Danny getting mad at Dorothy

William Lewis

Oh, I figured it round about the time of the making of the Mac and Cheese in the very Joyce specific way ... 💖

Heatth

I was under the impression it was during the Paramore scene, but that was literally the night prior right? Using "finally" and "for so long" doesn't match. I am really curious now.

Megh

Actually after reading it again she immediately follows that line up with "after wanting to for so long" That really sounds to me like she's NOT talking in retrospect and has known for a while, which has some implications

DiDi-chan

The break up is an obvious solution mostly because it's unlikely that any other possibility will happen. Joe still has wounds from his father cheating on his mother. I don't think any claims of love from Joyce will mean anything to him. Hell, he might end things first.

SmurfJuice

Nonetheless, panicked and reactionary decision-making is more often a lose-lose.

Jeremy AR

I mean they call each other boyfriend and girlfriend, usually that is a pretty good clue that exclusivity is expected

Terra Bruder

Once again, this is not fuccboi behavior. This is "Oops I figured out good and bad things and I don't know how to handle the bad things."

Railway Series Book Club

@Heatth it makes sense, the people need to know What The Fuck She's Thinking!

Logibear

I can imagine him being super smug, until the exact second he learns that the person she's cheating with is his best friends girlfriend.

Heatth

I think talking in retrospect still can work. She figuring out she wanted to kiss Dorothy for real for a long time but never quite realizing that is what she wanted. But there are other interpretations, which are really juicy.

5099 5618 v2.0

@Andrea Andrew She is 100% right. - Joe *doesn't* deserve this. - He *was* good [ to | for ] her. - She *did* catch them sneaking around. - They *do* know that they should have talked to their respective partners about how things have changed and how they want to give their newly-established bond (and the Chernobyl-levels of NRE it's putting out) a chance and see where it takes them before taking action what would harm the other people in the pattern. - This *is* an impulsive, selfish way to do what they're doing. It *will* cause problems beyond their immediate circumstances. Knowing the both of them and their inability to keep it to themselves, it *probably already has*. - it *does* suck to see someone you considered a moral person doing something they know is not the right thing to do by all involved, especially if it reminds you of your own wounds. This is their mess. They own it. They get their shot together, but yeah. Cleaning this up and setting things right, now, is on them. Still, if you asked either of them if it was worth it, do you think either of them say it wasn't?

Megh

Unofficial, When did Joyce Realize she likes Dorothy? Poll: During the "Paramore" Scene When she asked her to do "Laundry" again When Dorothy made her Kraft Macaroni and Cheese According to the instructions During the timeskip BEFORE the timeskip

KittyKai

Not really. I know plenty of people in poly relationships. WITH THAT SAID, I'm getting the feeling that's increasingly unlikely in this case for a multitude of reasons. Which is a shame because GAD DANGIT I WOULD HAVE LOVED THAT-

Megh

I'm voting during the timeskip personally

Megh

It could, it could, buuuuuuuut I'm thinking earlier personally

Railway Series Book Club

voting for "in the off-panel time between Learning Dorothy's Atheist (1-4) and Apologizing For Freaking Out Over Learning Dorothy's Atheist (1-5)"

Heatth

I am sticking with my guns and saying "Paramore Scene".

Heatth

But I am giving a heart to "during timeskip" as well.

5099 5618 v2.0

There was a strip where Dorothy looked at Joyce with undiluted thirst shortly after she accepted she was definitely attracted to her. It was right after she got to one of their classes, in that moment where they first made eye contact. Joyce's expression changed in a way that was... hard to read, at the time. She didn't respond in kind, didn't seem to encourage it in the moment, but also didn't recoil or dodge. She just...noticed. If there's a Moment of Becoming, my vote's for that one.

Maude Reads Things

Joyce has realized certain feelings were there for a long time. She's also doing that thing she does sometimes where she tries to weasel rationalize things she knows she's doing wrong. Sarah's not having it. She's in 'no bullshit' big sister mode here.

5099 5618 v2.0

@Kaemon Ducarpr Yeah, there's admin that has to be done that they have not done, here. Maybe they'll learn how and get it right down the road, tho.

Mariah

I have seen this take as "the comic will say cheating is wrong but dorothy and joyce are soul mates" and thats bad? I don't really get what "consequences they are expecting but I doubt getting yelled at is going to satisfy them.

Heatth

Man, Sarah reacting *this* strongly really made me pumped up for the rest of the cast. Who else will get mad? Will anyone extend support to Joyrothy?

Calder Johnson

Yep, this is the reaction I was expecting - and why I didn't buy the arguments that she wouldn't. The gym scene laid out that Sarah had changed her mind about Joe, and she's always been the Paladin of the cast (and I mean that as praise in this instance, in contrast to some of the weider, more puritanical comments that circulate.) My hunch was this was going to drive a wedge between Sarah and Joyce, and it seems to be heading that direction. I hope relationship repair is in the cards before too long, but it may be getting worse before it gets better, we'll see how the next few strips go...

Heatth

I can see it. I couldn't before. But now, I can see it.

5099 5618 v2.0

@Heatth I suspect neither faction will want for members.

voyager-ngc5195

I think the difference is that exclusivity in a relationship switched culturally from needing to be a requested status (going steady) to being the default status of a relationship, with the option of not being exclusive needing to be mutually agreed upon first; effectively a reverse of 'going steady'. It probably occurred naturally since most people's initial reference points for relationships tend to be on the monogamous, exclusive side with 'cheating' occurring when a third party appears. In general, wanting to date multiple people at once can be fine, it just needs to be openly discussed and agreed upon first so that everyone's on the same page. Personally, I would be perfectly fine with Joyce dating Dorothy while also dating Joe; even if it's not as a poly relationship and with Joyce herself having simply decided she's just not an exclusive relationship type of person. But this is something they would have needed to discuss before it became a problem.

I Know Why the Mowed Lawn Screams

Lmfao I voted for “Jakey dies” partially because I’ve been looking forward to the Joe/Joyce breakup for a hot minute now. They’re so cute but IMO I always thought that their relationship ending was gonna be the most interesting way to continue Joe’s wider character journey.

5099 5618 v2.0

@Mariah They can both acknowledge cheating is bad *and* be soul-mates, tho. I've been to the wedding of at least one set of friends who started off that way.

Calder Johnson

I also agree that it borders on overstepping, but that's always kinda been Sarah's schtik, for better or worse. But yeah, she's also kind of right? I mean, even Joyce admitted to herself a few strips ago that being around Joe makes her a better person. That doesn't inherently mean that she should be with Joe, but from a Paladin's perspective, it definitely does. And Sarah is definitely a Paladin.

Lia

puppy dog eyes sarah (╥﹏╥) what hath sickos wrought

Ashura Atsu

I'd like to see what strip that was as well, if possible. It might influence my vote.

Calder Johnson

Hahaha you're a good sport for finding the Sicko joy in calling this particular point wrong! Yeah, you know I was going to the mat on my theory that the gym scene was a telegraph for how this was going to go down, and it looks likes so it be. Pure 100% drama, put it right in our veins!!

Julian Williams

You know it's bad because Sarah admits she's wrong.

GPanda

Ahhh yes Joes step sister

Jayne Lindgren

If Sarah means that Joe doesn't deserve to be cheated on by Joyce, then fair enough, she's right. If Sarah means that Joyce shouldn't leave Joe because he's been too good to break up with, she can fuck right off. No one owes anyone a relationship, period. No matter how "good for you" that person is. The issue here is 100% that Dorothy and Joyce are basically acting as a couple already, without having broken up with their existing partners. It is *not* that they want to be together, or that they want to break up with those partners at all. (sorry, poly believers, they don't owe a poly option either if they don't want to, and I don't think they want to)

Megh

@5099: Personally I think that strip's when Joyce realized Dotty liked her back

Lia

im switching sides, go back to being hetero NOW. for her

voyager-ngc5195

I don't really think Sarah's intending the second meaning; she's being very clear that the problem is that they're sneaking around with this new relationship without ending the old ones. I have issues with the idea that they would necessarily *have* to end the old ones (thought there definitely needs to be some discussions before they start this new one), but I don't believe Sarah's implying that Joe's too good to be broken up with, just that she was wrong on her initial assessment of him.

Calder Johnson

I personally interpret the 'good for you' not as 'you owe them a relationship' (that's super-ick), but rather the view (that a lot of people have, and is certainly a Paladin view of the world) that the 'smart and right' thing to do when it comes to relationships is sensibly choose a partner based on things like supporting each other's growth, shared values, etc. That romantic love is tyrannical and horny and should be taken with a grain of salt. That last part though, about not deserving to be betrayed...ouch, yeah that feels like some personal trauma of Sarah surfacing...

Jayne Lindgren

Sorry if this is a little vehement, but I am pretty sensitive about the idea of queer women being told they need to stay with their male partners because "he's so good to you," "he doesn't deserve this," or "he's giving you so much." I agree that Sarah almost certainly isn't doing this, but it's definitely on my mind here.

Heatth

I got weirded out by the wording as well. I think it is *probably* not the intended meaning but it felt uncomfortable to me.

Calder Johnson

That's totally legit! I think Sarah is speaking her truth from a different perspective, but yeah in other contexts the same words would be really bad and being sensitive to that is really understandable.

Maude Reads Things

I can definitely understand your vehemence but I don't think Sarah means 'He's been so good to you so you need to stay' so much as 'he's been so good to you so you shouldn't cheat on him'

Calder Johnson

Another thought that occurs to me: Sarah articulates something interesting about the nature of 'cheating' in a relationship, and that's obviously been one of the huge debates here and on the mainsite ad nauseum - 'When should it be considered cheating? What standards/cultural norms are we using to define cheating?' Sarah comes in with an extremely simple (and possibly Paladin-esque) take: If you FEEL like you're doing something wrong, you're doing something wrong. It lacks nuance, but it makes sense for her.

5099 5618 v2.0

@Megh I could see that, too. To me it feels like that moment was a shift from "This would be nice, but is probably impossible" to "Wait... This could happen?" From there she had to actually figure out if she wanted to *want* it, or wanted to *do* something about it. That's my $0.02, anyway, and I have been wrong before.

5099 5618 v2.0

@Heatth That's the one. "Recalculating..."

Dahlia Rose

OKay so like, I've kept quiet on this, but like, could people please stop behaving like they comitted the ultimate betrayal here? I mean yes, cheating is very bad, I'm not saying it isn't. But their first kiss happened in a VERY stress filled, and dangerous situation and was a major spur of the moment sort of thing. And that was just the evening prior to this. It wasn't something they'd planned or intended to do, things just built up to it very quickly. And after all of that that they went through at the protest it makes sense they'd want to sleep for the night and do the break ups while being well rested instead of dead tired. What I'm saying is, it isn't like they confessed to eachother, and then planned and eventually went on a date and were together for several days in secret without breaking up with Joe and Walky. It has literally been less then 8 hours probably. But yeah, the kiss was sudden and unexpected for both of them, they couldn't have broken up with their boyfriends first when they didn't even expect it to just happen like that.

James Miller

yeah but a big problem comes in from Joyce going to Joe's room to break up with him and then... giving him a bj because she still has strong feelings for him and complicating the whole thing so much more.

James Miller

I do think that a big problem might be from Dorothy's own issues about 'losing' joyce like in her many nightmares seen so far. I could see her wanting joyce all to herself in a relationship and not wanting to share in fears of losing her. She is also not really a huge fan of joe in general and alot of her nightmares seemed to be getting worse and more common the longer Joyce was dating him. Also Walky is unlikely to be an option because Joyce cannot stand him. It is honestly a situation where each person cannot stand the other's het-partner and if dorothy/joyce is going to work it will probably involve cutting out Joe and Walky.

Shane Wegner

They’ve put Sarah in a weird situation. Now she either has to hide what she knows and it’s a betrayal of Joe if he finds out she knew, or she tells Joe, which betrays a Dorothy and Joyce. They’re running out of wiggle room not to tell. Roommates bringing drama into her living space is of course already a super sore subject for Sarah, given all the pain she went through with her former roommate’s drug addiction. She got called a narc by some for asking for help from the school with the spiraling former roommate. Now her current roomies are bringing a new version of drama into where she lives.

James Miller

it kinda double stings since she was kinda getting herself into a settled and healthy state. New boyfriend, classes going well, a mostly stable friend group after the disaster of last semester. Now this could cause everything to spiral on top of whatever extra trauma she could have related to betrayal in relationships like this. I can understand why she is crashing out so hard but I do help she can set these two straight on figuring out their shit and trying to cleanly break up with Joe and Walky.

Shane Wegner

She was cheated on herself, so there’s a raw nerve there.

James Miller

Honestly i think that if Joyce had been honest and broke up with Joe the night before after the kiss then he would have been alright with it. The more time she puts between that moment of stress and passion and actually telling him about her wanting to be with Dorothy the more he will certainly not be okay with it anymore. The fact that she gave him a bj the same night she kissed Dorothy and then cuddled in bed with her really doesn't help her what-so-ever. I can see him being really upset about all this if she ends up dragging it out. Also it really isn't fair to Dorothy either to try and sneak around Joe's back like this and keep both relationships going because she can't bring herself to end things with Joe yet.

James Miller

i do think that the uh.. anti-joyrothy side will have more members in the cast depending on how joyce and dorothy navigate the breakups. right now i certainly see joe, danny, becky and dina being on the anti-side if they screw this up.

Fart Captor

Given how Sarah starts off with bringing up that they haven't broken up with their boyfriends yet, and her use of the word betrayal, I'm pretty sure her issue is entirely that they're cheating She's come around on Joe being a decent guy who deserves a proper breakup BEFORE the wlw tomfoolery

Fart Captor

I love how she's not just letting her emotions show by accident but expressing them on purpose!

Filias Nox

I agree 110 % but that is the last mouth, that a year ago i would have bet to spoke those words

GPanda

@BBCC this like she’s literally saying Joe is owed honesty. If Joyce wants to end it just do it and don’t go behind his back

Logibear

Genuine question. Which other cast members who knew or cared that they were dating Walky/Joe would be sympathetic or empathetic here?

GPanda

I’m betting they will screw it up. The comic isn’t called making smart decisions of age

Giant Speck

I imagine that it has also got to hurt for Sarah to know that not only did Joyce and Dorothy not tell anyone else what happened, but they also specifically did not tell *her* what happened and then proceeded with their "hushes and mumbles under the cover" with her in the same room all night.

Rob McBobson

My definition has always been "Anything you do with a romantic and/or sexual partner specifically because they're your romantic/sexual partner is cheating if you do it with somebody else without agreeing it's okay with your romantic sexual/partner first." Not a perfect definition, I guess, but a pretty good rule of thumb.

Astariel

Well, shouldn't she be self-centered? This is an important event in her life, after all. It's not like there are starving orphans somewhere that are being impacted by her kissing Dorothy.

ArdieBea

Ok, ok, ok. Let me try to do this with some... nuance. I had a near-death experience one afternoon in my teens. That night I crossed a few sexual Rubicons. "In the midst of death we are in.. one another"? etc. Joyce and Dorothy didn't have a near-death experience (like, e.g. Amber/Amazigirl) but consider what did happen; out of anxiety for a trans sister they attend a protest during which Dorothy's long-building abandonment of her institutional ambitions is finally completely thrown into the gaseous wind. Joyce shreds the last bonds of her religious sexual hangups (with religious fervour) and frees herself to actually love the person she's loved all this time. Joyce was physically attacked by a thug in riot gear, and they both had to run from the police knowing that there was someone with a gun overlooking them. MIGHT THIS HAVE BEEN A TEENSY BIT TRAUMATIC? They weren't just 'tired' the previous night, they were shattered! And yet, they still made an effort to make things right with their bofriends. Now, I'm a Joyce/Joe shipper from Walky-verse days so please don't think that I'm blind to the hurt Joe will feel (or Walky) regardless of how aware they already are of Joyce and Dorothy's feelings for each other. It's just that it's way premature to get all judgy on these characters! Sarah's allowed to; she's a disappointed big sister and an aggrieved friend of Joe, and she's giving voice to the 'relationship paladin' perspective. But she isn't the final arbiter of what can, or will, or should happen next.

Astariel

It's not Joyce's job to inspire or be 'good' for anyone else.

Astariel

@Mariah Nah, the only things that will satisfy them would be 1) a permanent end to Joyrothy, 2) notarized statements to never, ever break up with Joe and Walky, 3) something like the Game of Thrones walk of shame, and 3) permanent scarlet 'A's sewn into all their clothing.

Astariel

Why should she expect them to tell her if she was just going to respond like this?

Astariel

Oh, stuff it, Sarah.

GPanda

Honestly I don’t want any of those but I want the girls to lose Joe and Walky’s friendship at least temporarily like. If you want to go cheat on your friends and treat them like crap they would honestly be justified in dropping the girls like a sack of potatoes

Sajuuk-Khar

This, yup. Joyce is trying to perform Virtuous Ingenue at the WORST possible time.

Sajuuk-Khar

I am extremely excited about this development from Sarah as emotional opening up and investment, and she has a strong point re: betrayal, hurt, bad behavior that the two cute disasters are letting themselves do, BUT she’s also wrong. Because of course she’s wrong! No one here is behaving optimally! They’re all being stupid babies!

Sajuuk-Khar

Lmao now that you point that out, Sarah kind of was always the ultimate relationship paladin, because that’s been a main-site argument I’ve seen over and over, that if you perceive personally that you have failed your standards, you must immediately stop! (Which sounds like great advice on paper, but unfortunately some of us have brains that are constantly betraying us for various bullshit reasons usually related to “a hormone”)

Smoochie

Leslie? Absolutely. Ruth, Billie/Jennifer, and Ethan might be sympathetic or empathetic to Joyce and Dorothy for different reasons. Maybe Carla in her….uh, own way sort of? Booster would have a field day with this so not necessarily empathy is their first…go to. Jacob and Lucy—-haha, no probably not.

Sajuuk-Khar

I am sitting on the stern of the SS Sacred Polycule like it’s the fucking Titanic

Sajuuk-Khar

Dorothy and Joe do not have a problem where they cannot stand each other, though. Dorothy and Joe have a problem they could work out. This behavior is more likely to escalate that problem to one that cannot be resolved easily the longer it goes on, which is part of why Sarah’s point is valid. :P

Smoochie

Is it wrong to feel like even if Joyce realized it herself, she might use the ‘everyone thought we were obsessed with each other anyway, so it finally happened ’ defense as a shield?

Sajuuk-Khar

I want to take a break from cackling like a goblin about the drama to point out in my own comment that I love Sarah, Sarah has a point, BUT Sarah is also overreacting and blowing shit way out of proportion. She, too, is dumbing. Like…circumstances actually haven’t changed very much from last night, in spite of Joyce trying to rules-lawyer her way into (TOTALLY SECULAR!!!) virtue about it in the face of confrontation, shame. This is literally the next morning. Yes, they’re now engaged in dishonest behavior—I would say *as an audience member*, the sharing the bed and cuddling all night was when Joyce and Dorothy began “actually cheating”, because that had intent, that was deceptive. Everything up until then, including the BJ, was a series of dumbfuck mistakes, but that was a choice to do a bad. Not a mortal bad—it’s more like parking in a no-parking zone and claiming you didn’t know when you absolutely did—but the more they dig themselves into that hole, the worse it could be. BUT. It’s not fair to assume they’ll keep digging, and will it necessarily help things to go nuclear? Probably not! Probably it will lead to tension in the dorms! All over the dorms!

Smoochie

@Astariel: They could not have foreseen her to respond like this—because it opens up the idea that she came around on Joe as opposed to pounding her fist on Dorothy’s door to beg her to commit on her feelings to Joyce and break Joyce and Joe up. Monkey’s paw, etc.

Heatth

@Astariel It is just that if you got caught cheating, that is a bad way to start your defense. I just thought it was amusing. Joyce probably didn't think she would need to mount a strong defense for Sarah anyhow. I am not saying Joyce is a monster or anything, just that it is amusing.

Sajuuk-Khar

TERRIFYING, STUPID VISIONS OF THE FUTURE People, imagine with me. Imagine a world where Joyce and Dorothy pratfall into revealing this bullshit to, say…half the cast. Sarah is the first domino. Then Danny, then Sal…Dina…Amber gets it confirmed…Billie and Alice…Booster learns…Jacob and Lucy are astonished, horrified… What if this is a world. Where. When they finally stumble, teary-eyed, into confessions to their boyfriends, *both boys are amicable about it*, but the entire friend group is on fire? AND *THEN* BECKY LEARNS ABOUT IT

Sajuuk-Khar

It would be so stupid and so fucking funny if Joe and Walky were the least upset by all this And then Becky being chill would be the stupid cherry on top

Heatth

Amber, for selfish reasons if nothing else (she also had her hand stoking the fire). Maybe Sal, to an extend. She tries to be cool and unaffected by drama. I can see her defending her brother but making a point of not overreacting,

Sajuuk-Khar

Sarah: JOE I CANNOT BELIEVE JOYCE DID THIS TO YOU Joe: Well, uh, actually we worked it out and we’re ok— Sarah: YOU MUST BE DYING INSIDE Becky: Jeezus, cut Joyce some slack, wouldj— Dina: >_< Dishonesty is horrible, Becky. We’ve talked about this. Joe/Becky: 😐

Sajuuk-Khar

Sal trying to console Walky while Walky wants her out of the god damn room so he can blurt out “hey you wanna try tittyfuckin’?” to a visibly horny and incredibly guilty about it Amber (Amber wants to but she cannot let herself because she has SINNED, she CAUSED THIS, she must go into a hole in the ground forever)

Heatth

Probably a difference in values, but I really do think the BJ is much worse than anything else they had done. To me that is a biggest deception than anything else (though going to bed together is also not great). Anyway, I will defend Sarah a bit. In her first two panels all she know was that they were cheating and hiding it. There is no indication they plan on breaking up with their partners. When Dorothy tried to explain Joyce derailed the conversation by claiming Sarah shouldn't care and that prompted Sarah to be emotional because she *does* care. It is unclear if she even processed what Dorothy said. So, I agree Sarah is escalating things more than necessary, but I kinda blame Joyce on that one. Her initial scolding was entirely justified and the rest was an emotional response.

Heatth

While this scenario is amusing, I really don't think Joe will be ok with it. I can see Walky being, but Joe specifically has trauma related to cheating which was brought up just last storyline.

Sajuuk-Khar

I will agree to disagree on the BJ v. Cuddles All Nite thing because I think that really is just perspective/values, like you said (I’m kind of with Maggie in that the dishonesty/any adjacent cruelty bothers me more than the act). On the other stuff? OH yeah, I absolutely agree. No blame on Sarah for her reaction, especially when Joyce immediately doubled down on “this is great, actually!!!!!!” (A lie!) This is not a situation where either of them look like awesome paragons.

Heatth

I fear I might have been misunderstood by some people so I want to clarify that my previous post was 100% facetious.

Sajuuk-Khar

Oh, I’m sure Joe is going to have layered feelings about discovering he’s got more in common with his mom now, and they will be not great, like, he’s gonna hurt, but I maintain it’s totally possible for things to be amicable in any number of directions! Like, Joe is kind of the wildcard here. He’s got trauma, sure, but remember that it was in the exact opposite direction! This is new and uncharted land for our big handsome sex boy. Where will he go? Is Rachel right?? (no and screw her. But not like that)

Heatth

Ok, I wanted to drop the issue but I want to clarify that I also think the dishonesty is the worst part. When Willis described Maggie's take on cheating I also felt in agreement. I just think the BJ itself feels the most dishonest act, because Joyce was still fully intending breaking up with Joe throughout. If you don't feel the BJ felt that dishonest that is fine and where we agree to disagree, but I wanted to make my position clear. Anyway, yeah. My main take away is that Joyce really should learn when to take the L and stop talking. There isn't a good "excuse" for the cheating, she messed up and that is it. It sucks but it is human, it happens. But the more she tries to talk around it to worst it sounds.

Smoochie

Nope; no, sorry. I cannot—I want red background Walky. GIVE IT TO M… …but okay that is kinda funny. (Actually hilarious.)

Heatth

Yeah, his main expectation was that he would be the one cheating. But I really think him being in the receiving end will mess him up. Like, if he is "ok" with it I think it might be more unhealthy? I think that might happen if he internalizes he is the only one who can be in the wrong in a relationship, which I think is really bad. I think it might do good for him to blame someone else for his relationship failing. Like, I want him to eventually forgive Joyce, don't get me wrong. But I think it would be healthy for him to understand he is not fated to be the one who cheats, and that he too can be the wronged party.

ScrimpArt

PALADINS!!!!!!!!!!! HOLD!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Amós Batista

In a Joyce's perspective, this is a sudden change from Sarah

T Campbell

Reaction to another post, but I didn't want to call them out specifically. I don't mean to be a party pooper, but every time I see someone say "Maybe Joe and Walky will be COOL with this?" my reflexive reaction is "Yeah, good luck with that." In fairness, I once had that reaction to "Maybe Joyce and Dorothy will GO TO SMOOCHTOWN?" But the difference is that David provided a lot of supporting evidence for the attraction before pulling that ship out of the harbor. Whereas the only pieces of evidence arguing for Joe and Walky taking this in stride are (1) Joe being pretty chill about it when he got Dorothy to admit some attraction, (2) Walky theorizing Joyce was into Dorothy WAY before anybody else and (3) maybe Walky's commitment to being chill in general. And I don't think that outweighs the other factors here, including the storytelling need for conflict, Walky's severe dislike of Joyce, Joe's perspective on cheating, and Joyce and Dorothy's compromised decision-making. On top of all that, opening up the relationship is generally not something you can drop on a partner as a fait accompli, and it'd be super weird for that to be the takeaway here. I sometimes think when a certain fandom is really starved for representation, that's when the tortured logic comes out. In the old days, when queer content of ANY kind was much thinner on the ground, some fans embraced the accusations that Batman and Robin were gay for each other, and I was like--"C'mon, he's a minor, he's basically an adopted son, this is NOT THE KIND OF REPRESENTATION YOU WANT." Likewise, I wouldn't exactly mind seeing a portrayal of a college cuddle puddle, but I don't think most of the current mains are built for that. I've been wrong before, but I'd be surprised to be wrong this time.

The25th

I just realized this is the second relationship Joyce is homewrecking.

Heatth

I mostly agree but I will say, I don't think Walky severely dislike Joyce at all. He is snarky and teases her a lot, but he is overall pretty chill hanging out with her. The animosity is mostly from Joyce's side, not Walky. And even then I think people overstate her hatred (she is also mostly chill hanging out with Walky, as long as her Dorothy jealously doesn't kick in). I don't think this is enough to claim he will be chill with the cheating, but I don't think it is an aggravating factor either. I do think out of the two Walky is the mostly likely to be cool with it though. He doesn't seem as devotated to Dorothy as he used to be before the timeskip. I really got the impression he mostly got over her on an emotional level. I don't think it is particularly *likely* he will be instantly cool with cheating, but if someone would be it is him, I think.

Harold

@Heatth: Joe to Joyce: "There's a knock on the door, and there's someone cheating, and you think *that* of *me*? *You* are the danger! *You* are the one who cheats!"

Sajuuk-Khar

my sibling in Cthulhu I said it was a stupid vision for a reason lmao I think there’s a lot of solid reasons to believe Joe specifically will not be explosively angry, looking at his character arc, how he deals with relationships, things Willis has said here and elsewhere, his emotional character, etc. But I don’t think he’s gonna not hurt, not actually. Walky I’m even more sure is gonna hurt. Mostly I just am sick of prophecies of doom and wrath centered on the boyfriends. Like, it seems, IDK, cheap. It’s so easy. It’s very easy to imagine the dudes involved being pissy. I like Willis’ work because he avoids easy stuff, y’know? It makes me a little contrarian.

Harold

@Astariel: Dumbing of Age, Book 16: Joyce and Dorothy Reaffirm Their Heterosexuality After an Apparent Temporary Mutual Psychotic Break

Beck Chonigman

Sarah character development, let's goooooooooo!!!

Harold

@Heatth: I mean, I would have thought that the part about J&D being "miserable forever" would have been a clue that the post was satiric. (Except that there are main-site commenters who would probably say something like that and *mean* it. For all I know, they already have. I have been hard-noping out of the main site comments for some time now.)

Rob McBobson

I gotta politely disagree with the idea that the kiss wasn't cheating. Romantically or sexually kissing somebody when you're in a monogamous relationship is still cheating, technically. You can say that it's not as bad, or it's not evil, or it's stupid horny teens being stupid horny teens, but saying that it's not cheating in the first place feels a bit "No true Scotsman".

T Campbell

If there's one thing I can identify with, it's being a contrarian reader.

Sajuuk-Khar

McBobson my dogg, that is your perspective and you are welcome to it, but it is not mine and I won’t co-sign it. I am voicing my own personal opinion on “when it became cheating”, not an absolute value. :P If that’s pulling an NTS, then literally any case of saying “personally I think X” is.

Sajuuk-Khar

Harold as ever you are my comrade and a very funny real one Smoochie I understand that hunger lmaooo 🤣

Sajuuk-Khar

LMAO HEATTH GREAT CATCH on the whole “I completed my arc!” thing! God! Yes! It’s a recurring flaw! Joyce you big dumb beautiful baby!! She keeps thinking she can press the “Finished!” button on life events, like when atheism made her The World-Sage!! Now kissing Dorothy has made her Bisexuality Expert Joyce Brown: I Kiss Girls For Virtue!

Ilana Feldman

I may be here exclusively for the Joyce/Dorothy kissing, but I really like this page. It gives us a different perspective on Sarah than usual and has her acting differently without straying from her usual characterization or missing a step in how her part of the story has been playing out. One of the benefits of "blowing up your comic", as Willis has put it, is that entirely new sides of the characters start revealing themselves to adapt to the entirely new status quos and they become more complex as a result. I think this is why nobody can agree on how Becky/Joe/Walky will react. Like, sure, Joe could regress back to how he was, or alternatively be chill with it as his recent characterization might suggest, but Willis won't do either of those things because experiencing infidelity in this more direct way is a completely different sort of trauma than the indirect infidelity carried with the generational trauma. Becky could get upset because of her prior childhood crush on Joyce, because Joyce hid it from her like her atheism, or get mad at Dorothy because of their "rivalry", but the rivalry is superficial and the "Welcome to our ranks!" comment from the previous day suggests Becky will be fine with the lesbianism, though the infidelity will probably be another story. And Walky is an enigma to me, but I think any direction he goes in from this, including being a full supporter of a polycule, would be interesting. And, of course, these three main characters are merely at the epicenter of the earthquake caused by The Kiss, which will certainly affect everyone in their extended friend group as they have to adapt to the post-kiss world that they now live in. Yeah, I'm looking forward to where this goes, even if it's going to be a stressful journey.

Rob McBobson

I mean, I'm not trying to offer a perspective so much as a literal definition of cheating. Doing romantic or sexual things with somebody else than the one you're in a monogamous relationship with without having your partner's okay with it is cheating by definition, as far as I know, so before I say anything else I need to ask what your literal definition of the word is, just so we don't talk past each other.

Sajuuk-Khar

I said, in my original comment, that as an audience member, when it became cheating, *for me*, was when willful dishonesty got involved, when there was a premeditated choice to engage in bad behavior as opposed to a stupid mistake. I don’t know why that’s not clear. I don’t know why you’re bringing the dictionary into this. I never claimed to be “defining” jack shit, dude. I want to note that I have nothing but amicable feelings towards every other thread, but this is getting weird and sealion-y.

Rob McBobson

If that's how I come off, then I'm sorry about that, and I do apologize. It's just that I genuinely don't get it. I *promise* I just didn't get what you literally meant by "cheating." I get that you don't classify the kiss as cheating, I just don't get what it is or isn't being classified *as*, you know? It's like, I think pizza is delicious, but I don't think the English word "delicious" literally means "having the taste of pizza", you know what I mean?

Rob McBobson

I'm gonna leave it from now on, though. StilI, I *promise* I was just trying make sure I didn't misunderstand you, I *promise* I'm sorry that I came off as if I was sealioning, and I *promise* I'm genuinely sorry that I didn't know how to express myself better. And I was happy to hear that you have nothing but amicable feelings in other threads.

zee

FINALLY SOME SPICE Backlash, thank god. I've been waiting ever since the kiss for something to happen. Sarah's reaction here is really sweet, i love the character development on display. The last two panels, oof. That is that good shit right there, hook it directly into my veins

theburningbentley

i think this is absolutely a perfect definition. a lot of people are reaching to define what is and isn’t cheating and its literally just ‘doing romantic or sexual things with someone else that were not previously discussed and okayed ahead of time by your partner’. ┐(´ー｀)┌

William Lewis

Yeah. So? College freshmen do that shit to each other. I certainly remember that crap from the 80's.... So damn tired of the holier than thou types in these comments. I ratfucked myself more than once and hurt myself and others. So did You (royal you - not you personally). Stop pretending you're all that much better.

Joeblow

Yeah! Fuck someone who legitimately cares for you! They dont deserve the honest truth.

Jeremy AR

I been wondering who is that in your profile it's smug aura mock me

T Campbell

She's Syr'Nj, a character from Guilded Age, a comic I co-wrote for quite a while.

Astariel

They don't deserve to dictate to you about you should or should not be dating.

Astariel

@Heatth Sorry, I did get that you were being facetious, but it seems like there are plenty of commenters, (especially on the main site), who say things like that and mean them.

Astariel

I started this storyline feeling pretty bad for Joe and hoping he wouldn't be too badly hurt, but the incessant whiny moralizing of the paladins have pretty much moved me into the 'i hope jakey dies' category.

Mariah

the holier than though comments are only going to get worse especially on the main site I am not going on there for the next few days.

Mariah

people are just on edge because of the drama in the main site.

Mariah

I was thinking about the game of thrones walk of shame a few days ago really encapsulates the whole vibe.

KaylaZX

YOU. you get it.

Morgan Byrd

They’re long odds but if it happens that’s a hell of a called shot

5099 5618 v2.0

@Mariah My preferred framing: "Accept the pain you have wrought. Greater delights await. "We wish to see you proceed."

AE Gonzalez

I might be the only one who think Walky’s reaction will be: “Yes, back to Amber! Oh, uh, bye Dorothy.”

5099 5618 v2.0

(Then again, that's more of a She Who Thirsts POV: not so much trying to predict the future, as much as hoping things stay *interesting*...)

Chloe

Oh, I just had a morbid thought. Sarah has befriended Joe, it's clear she actually values the work he's put in, and this is a tricky situation, right? Like, her little sister figure is fooling around behind Joe's back -- ironically kind of mirroring what people thought Joe would do to Joyce -- and Sarah sort of has a stake in this. I was wondering about Tony's whole "I don't have time for buffoonery," because does that account for all drama? Is he tired of hearing about dumb college shit in the way Sarah often expressed herself to be in the past? Meaning, if Sarah is stuck in a moral dilemma (rat out Joyce and be seen as the asshole again, or keep her mouth shut and stew in secondhand guilt with Joe none the wiser) and she vents to Tony, will it cause Tony to raise a hand and want to be uninvolved? Will he act as a mirror to some of Sarah's old flaws? NOT TRYING TO UNDERSELL MY BOY TONY HERE, but since his characterization so far has been rather, uh, stern? I'm wondering whether it was sprinkled in early so that Sarah's got more pressure in this situation, which could then cause a fissure between her and Joyce, as Joyce... Can kind of veer towards being (mostly unintentionally, I think?) selfish in how people usually make exceptions for her during emotional moments. (Lashing out at Sarah wrt Becky by referencing it as another Dana situation, lashing out w/ the birth control arc and autism diagnosis.) It'd be interesting to see if this is a potential breaking point for Sarah as she starts to grow as a person herself, and finding more connection with the people around her aside from just Joyce. I dunno! I'm rambling, it was just a thought.

5099 5618 v2.0

@AE Gonzalez There would be symmetry there with how Marcie responded to Malaya deciding to bang Joe after they got together, if that is how it goes.

Jeremy AR

Your mom is a spice

zee

I mean...pointing out when characters are doing a bad thing isn't holier than thou? The anti-paladin argument is starting to shift to a place of "these characters are immune from criticism bc college students are stupid" that's really annoying. Like they are, objectively, being shitty to their partners. That doesn't make them irredeemably evil, I don't particularly think less of them for it, but that doesn't make the thing they're doing suddenly not bad anymore. Like, fuck they're not holy gay martyrs that have been made untouchable

zee

...nah, any normal friend would respond to their friend cheating on their new partner with "wtf are you doing? This is shitty." Like you're allowed to cuss your friends out for doing something shitty. You should, in fact. That's what friends are for, sticking with you through the hard times and holding up a mirror when you need it

Grace Serenity

Okay, Sarah having a crashout on behalf of Joe was not on my list of possibilities!

zee

On the flipside, can we stop acting like any acknowledgement of wrongdoing is condemning them as sinners destined to burn in hell forever? It's getting really annoying seeing people get called paladins for just acknowledging that what they're doing is any less than 1000% morally pure

zee

I'm saying when Jen hit her with the "besties can totally make out sometimes it's chill". That flipped a switch in her brain

Astariel

I can't speak to how you and your friends treat each other, but me and my friends don't lecture each other or sit in judgment on each other. Any friend of mine who tried to dictate my romantic life to me like Sarah is doing here would be an ex-friend post haste.

zee

I don't think it really matters here since the expectation of exclusivity in these two relationships has been made pretty obvious by the multiple references to cheating, all the way back to when dot sent that tiddy pic

zee

I mean Sarah has known Joyce was flawed from the start, her constant strive to overcome those flaws is what people love about her. This is just, something she thought sarah thought Joyce wouldn't sink to

zee

Sarah's not saying "you're not allowed to date", she's saying "you shouldn't be cheating on your boyfriends." Like she emphasized the fact that they didn't break up with their guys for a reason

Tessea

yeah. That's pretty much what I meant but was wording poorly.

Calder Johnson

Great comic, btw! Just re-read the archives not too long ago.

Apocrypha Scribe

It's been very interesting watching discourse on this dramatic development, especially on how the boyfriends (Joe particularly) may react, whether it be with anger or nonchalance (or somewhere in between). However, I haven't seen anyone suggest a third option for Joe, that this is potentially a confirmation of his biggest fear *for Joyce specifically*, which is, by merely being involved with her, he would somehow turn her into "someone she isn't". Because, as we've seen before, he clearly feels he doesn't deserve her. Despite all his growing and character development, his actual self-esteem still needs WAY more work put into it, and the idea that Joyce cheated on him, and that he believes it's *his fault* would be way, way more heartbreaking than any other option, I feel. Obviously there's going to be elements of his cheating related trauma playing a major part, but I think people are underestimating just how badly this is going to hit him specifically because of how low he thinks of himself.

Smoochie

Just in time to find Amber in Booster’s arms. Don’t @ me.

Mariah

the anti palidin argument is against attacking Willis for "glorifying" cheating and or demanding a unreasonable punishment for dorothy and joyce for their actions. If paladins were only criticizing them for mistreating joe and dorothy no one would have a problem.

Jay

You have bad friends then cause one of a friends job is to call their friends out when they do scummy behavior

Jay

She's right tho, he doesnt deserve it

Jay

Dina especially. Joe's a good friend to her

Uniquitous

Dang Bill. Sounds like you're taking it kinda personal.

Astariel

Hey, if you need someone to follow you around and slap you on the nose when you do something wrong, that's your lookout. Most of us call those 'parents' and stop needing them after age 18 or so. We also mostly choose friends based on who we enjoy spending time with and not to be a personal board of censorship. But you do you, takes all kinds, I guess.

KittyKai

Oh shit I didnt even think of that possibility - I think that might be VERY plausible-

Jay

Your friendships sound very surface level

Wednesday Sophia

noooo joyce if you lose Sarah, then you'll have to turn to raidah to be your big sister!!!

Astariel

Yours sound like the Spanish Inquisition.

5099 5618 v2.0

@zee I would accept the verdict if that one wins out. That definitely did lock her brain open for a minute.

Heatth

I mean, it is both. His low self esteem derives from his cheating trauma. Part of his trauma is his fear he is just like his father (the fact they look identical definitively doesn't help). But, yeah, by far the most tragic outcome is he finding a way to blame himself.

5099 5618 v2.0

What do y'all think are the odds that Joyce & Dorothy try to escape through a window in the next, say, 5-7 strips? My guess is it's a coin-flip, at this point.