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Type 212A Sub Brief (Patreon)

Published:
2020-01-14 20:41:46
Edited:
2020-06-09 18:53:30
Imported:
2026-06
Tags:

Videos

Content

Germany and Italy come together to design a remarkable diesel submarine.

Files

2020-01-14 09-30-45.mp4

This is "2020-01-14 09-30-45.mp4" by Jive Turkey on Vimeo, the home for high quality videos and the people who love them.

Comments

Alexander

Hallo Jive, it's an honor and a pleasure to be at least a small part of this. Thank you very very much for combining all the input to something absolutely awesome. I looking forward to many more of your great Work!!!

CombatBoss

One of your best Sub Brief ever! High energy. You’d make great salesman. I was tempted to spend some of my Amazon Prime Points to pick one of these bad boyz up.

Nkc Steussy

Good brief. Really interesting. Do you know if they use lead or lithium batteries?

Alex The Apologetic (that his name is too long)

Nice! Geez the capability of these AIPs is quite staggering at times. One little thing, the reason the O2 tanks are so much larger on these subs is because they use metal hydrides, not because oxygen is a larger atom. In fact, the exact opposite is the case, even though oxygen is so much heavier and has so many more protons and neutrons. Hydrogen has a crazy low density, and figuring out how to cram it into a small space has been the bane of many a rocket scientist's lives. (See this cool diagram of the space shuttle's fuel tank: https://spaceflight.nasa.gov/shuttle/reference/basics/images/et.gif ) Metal hydrides are basically just a special cheat using a metal to bond to hydrogen in order to make it pack denser. There is usually some kind of chemical reaction that can be reversed to free up the hydrogen, and then you can pipe it to your fuel cells or whatever you need. IMHO though, I understand why they put the hydrogen storage system outside the people tube... I have spoken with people who have worked with metal hydrides and... They basically said it was like a bar of metal that could explode if mishandled.

Matus (Saturnax)

What a fantastic brief, it's a pleasure to be a part of this project. Saturnax.

Whitzwolf

I wish the Aussies could get this sub.... I have doubts about the French nuclear gone diesel design chosen...

Alexander

Old school lead Batteries. There is a Lithium Battery in the final the Phase of implementation. Which would make them the first in the West and second Worldwide. But surprisingly there is some secrecy around it lol. You can look it up at the ThyssenKrupp Website or Google GIGA batterys.

Alexander

I think as long as the RAN has such cool headed Flag Officers like the one who had to teach that red headed Senator, about Sub's. Australia will be fine despite the bad track record of the Collins procurement.

Andrew MacDougall

What is the difference between an attack and search periscope?

Andrew MacDougall

You say they carry mines externally because of treaty restrictions. Could you elaborate?

Andrew MacDougall

If the diesel circulates new air to the crew, does this mean this sub lacks air generation units like a nuke boat? I assume it at least has CO2 scrubbers.

Andrew MacDougall

In the pictures of the Seahake at 29:00 there is a wire spool thing behind the torpedo. Is this the "wire" we always hear about during Cold Waters episodes? Is what is depicted here similar to what is used in other countries (I realize you're sensitive to speaking of US equipment)? Would something like this have to be removed from the tube to load a new torpedo?

Raven Coldheart

The reason, why Liquid Hydrogen/Oxygen Rockets have ~double the tank size for Hydrogen isn't because of density, but because of the chemical reaction, you need 2 molecules of hydrogen for each molecule of oxygen to make 2 molecules of water. If you convert the density of LOx and LHy into kmol per cubic meter you get to around 35.5 kmol/m³, meaning 35500*6*10²³ molecules in a m³. Tl;dr: In gaseous form hydrogen has a much lower density in mol/m³ compared to oxygen, in liquid form that isn't the case anymore and the chemical reaction is the reason why the LHy is twice the size of the LOx-tank. Edit because formating doesn’t seem to work in browser.

Raven Coldheart

Now I really want the IDAS in Cold Waters in the China Campaign.

Benjamin A Rudnick

OK...at 25 minutes in, Jive brings up his slide about the "Crew's Mess"...and I cannot help but wonder if anyone else noticed that the man on the right of the table closest to the camera appears to be sitting on a closed TOILET? Can anyone confirm that on the 212 class, the head actually does share space with the mess? LOL

Benjamin A Rudnick

Yes...the old wire is removed from the tube to load in the new one. And yes...all wire guided torpedoes will have similar systems, with the details varying based on the range of the torpedo and the type of guidance "wire" that is used.

Alexander

I can comfirm that the Stabsbootsmann (OR-8) is NOT sitting on the toilet. But can pull up the seat surface because they store supplies in there. LoL

Benjamin A Rudnick

It sure looks an awful lot like a toilet. You have served on or been on the 212 class?

Alexander

Yes it realy looks like a Toilet but only because of the angle of the camera. Although I haven't served on 212A I can assure you that the Toilet is a seperated room on borad it actually is combined with the Shower, like in a caravan. I sincerely hope that concludes the Toilet talk!!! ;-)

Aaron Amick

size of the radar cross section and limited equipment.

Aaron Amick

It has scrubbers and O2 banks (for breathing not engine). I am not aware of any O2 generator like on 688 subs.

Alexander

Hallo BG213 and Jive, let me help you out here, First of all, the modern German Navy has a big Emphasis on mine cleaning operations, something they still do a lot of, especially in the Baltic and North sea given all the leftovers from two World Wars. Even during the Cold War there was a limited amount of planning for Mine warfare manly focused again at the Baltic Sea. The predecessor class 206/A did not carry mines Internally simply because it had only 8 tubes (aka 8 Torpedoes) which couldn't be reloaded at sea. So 206/A class could be equipped with a "Minengürtel" which could be strap on to the Boot. This was made out of fiberglass and carried 12 mines of the typ G1-D41 (Derivative of the US Mk52/55). To conclude the German Navy has no Tube launched mines, more for doctrinal/political than technical reasons. In fact the whole topic is even more complicated. But my comments are to long anyway!!! If you are interested I have few pictures of the system.

Alexander

Would be a O2 generator, not be way to power consuming for a Dieselboat???

Seahour

Great jive! I thoroughly enjoyed learning about this boat, especially so I could compare it to the Gotland class.

Andrew MacDougall

Alexander Vatter-Riemke: Thank you for that. Please do share links to pictures if you have them. Captain Turkey mentioned something about treaty restrictions. Do you know what he could be referring to? Or is it just the technical restrictions you mention? Also; is the 206/A the model Israel bought?

Andrew MacDougall

Alexander Vatter-Riemke: I would assume so. I ask only because of how long this sub can stay submerged.

Alexander

Hi BG213, like I wrote before this is quite a topic but anyway. Let me start with the Mine thing, there were restrictions under the so-called Bonn–Paris conventions from May 1952 therefore Germany was prohibited from the possession or construction of all kinds of Mines except AT and AP (Protocol No. III Annex IV of the treaty). All does restrictions fade away over the Years. When Germany could finally build and use Seemines they tried to utilize there Sub's for minelaying from the Torpedo Tubes. Tests were conducted (on U6 a class 205 Boat) but were unsuccessful due to technical issues. When the 206 class came online they didn't bother any more despite, the fact that 206 was better suited for it because of a different tube design. Now an even bigger topic German-Israeli submarine corporation, in the 1970 the Israelis were looking for a Submarine wich was abel to operate in littoral waters (Spying and SF support) but still had the biggest punch possible. So they discovered the best Fit came from Germany aka class 206. But because of restrictions wich were partly still aktiv post war and partly self imposed ones. Germany could not sell Sub's to Israel, to get around the restrictions they produced a modified 206 at the british Vickers shipyards so-called Gal-class wich look very similar outside but with a lot of differences inside. Different Weapons (inkl. Harpoon since 1983), Combat management and so on. Links below: https://www.globaldefence.net/archiv/artikel-analysen/deutschland-ein-jahrhundert-deutsche-u-boote/9/ https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cf/S178_U29.jpg http://www.hisutton.com/History%20of%20Israeli%20Subs.html https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gal-class_submarine https://www.360cities.net/image/ins-gal-retired-gal-class-submarine-clandestine-immigration-and-naval-museum-haifa

Blair Siegel

Thanks for this Jive. As usual a very well put together brief, very informative.

Urishima

The reason why they had to "gut" U-36 to keep U-35 running, a practice that is all too common in all arms of the Bundeswehr these days, is because our DOD, in their infinite wisdom, decided not to buy the spare parts package to safe some money with every boat purchased.

Phoa Yew Hui

I can see how the bigger 216 (never built) and 218 boats evolved from this.

Michael vY

Has any one noticed that the exterior haul design makes it easier to access the inner haul and equipment mounted there. No cutting with touches or welding so there is less time on a overhaul and even preform regular maintenance? I would think that’s a big deal.