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Radio War Nerd EP #83 — Uighur History, Pt. 2: Battle of Talas (Patreon)

Published:
2017-05-08 19:18:10
Edited:
2017-05-08 19:20:30
Imported:
2026-06

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Content

By popular demand from subscribers, guest Carl Zha (RWN #81) returns to continue the incredible history of the Uighurs in western China .  In part 2, we set up the Battle of Talas in 751 AD, where Tang China fought and lost an epic battle against the Arab Abbasid Caliphate . . . But to set up the history of this battle, Carl takes us from wars in the Korean peninsula to eastern Turkic-Mongol tribes pushing south & Tibetans pushing north . . . 

Some useful links to maps of Battle of Talas: 

* maps from Carl Zha's Facebook page 

* map showing modern-day Talas in NW Kyrgyzstan 

*  map gives sense of how far Talas is from China heartland 

Afterwards, the War Nerd and Ames briefly discuss current war news & Ames talks about his newest blog posts  on things-Russia . . . 

Total time: 2:21:50

Direct link  to this episode's mp3 here 

Files

Comments

Jim Borynec

Too bad you need a Facebook account in order to access Carl Zha's maps.

Carter Adams

Can Carl just become a third host? These have been phenomenal.

eh

A tangent here on the possible genetic heritage of modern Turks is that in a discussion I had with a Turkish friend he mentioned that apart from the multiethnic nature of the Ottoman elite (the heavy intermarriage with various Slavic groups, Armenians etc), in late Ottoman urban culture the word Turk itself was basically an insult you tossed at people to call them a rural idiot or rube. Part of this might I guess be mythologization by the later nationalist regime to stress the novelty of their rule but it's actually quite striking how they really did make a radical break on quite basic levels like language, my understanding is that the use of Arabic script and heavy use of Arabic and Persian loanwords that were replaced with words sourced from Turkic roots in the 20th century means that any pre-20th century literature will have to be read in what amounts to translation by modern Turks.

Richard Kim

The story that paper was spread to the West after the Battle of Talas has fallen out of favour in more recent times, I believe, due to archaeological finds that show paper was commonly used in Central Asia before 751.

Richard Kim

Also, anybody who's never thought of Central Asia as anything but a backwater should read Lost Enlightenment: Central Asia's Golden Age from the Arab Conquest to Tamerlane. Highly readable book that delves into the political, religious, and intellectual history covering the same period discussed in this podcast. The author makes a strong case pointing out how many famous luminaries in the Islamic Golden Age actually hailed from this Greater Khorasan area where there was a strong tradition of literacy, urbanism, and plurality in religions.

Carl Zha

We will talk about that in the next installment. So Please no spoilers : )

Richard Kim

Hey, Gary, Mark, and Carl. If you guys ever talk about Sui/Tang invasions of Korea as you hinted in this show, I'd love to participate as I'm Korean and an avid fan of early East Asian history. I can't boast any fancy Ph.D nor profess to know more than the encyclopedic Carl Zha, I can at least help with the Korean pronunciations and share the nationalistic Korean perspective of the Goguryeo-legacy.

Wyrd

A short thing about projecting globes on a flat plane: Basically you have two possibilities 1.) You can use a method that conserves the shapes of the continents but fucks up the proportions leading to vastly oversized landmasses the closer you get to the poles 2.) You can show the correct relative proportions of the landmasses but you will fuck up the shapes. Ofcourse there are hybrid techniques, but those fuck up both things... just not as much. People tend to prefer "correct shape" over "correct proportions"

Ra Sun

Hey Gary and other Radio War Nerd behind the scene people, there are questions on the community section of patreon that some patreons would like to see answers too. Mainly is there an RSS Feed for posts available to people who pledge $1 per episode?

Koob

How about paying full price?

Benjamin Glover

Fantastic episode. You three have a good chemistry together, and I am totally on board with the idea of more Carl Zha. The teasing of the founding of Korea in this episode is of great interest too.

Factory Troll

Awesome, monthly china-nerdery with Carl Zha is just what the doctor ordered. I spent many, many hours of this episode. **nitpick alert** Love the Russia blog tho, but next time please dont spend the entire world of wars segment repeating the exact same stuff you wrote about this week.

Ra Sun

$1 per episode is an option available through patreon and so it is a fair price according to whoever set this up. Nowhere does it say that it isn't enough to get an RSS feed for episodes.

realBriannaWu

Great episode as always. You guys should invite Ben Norton on sometime.

Henry

John is sounding too cheerful lately. Better do an episode on the Battle of the Boyne and fix that.

Meredith

I would pay to see a version of these as a lecture put together with sketchnotes so we could have all the maps and that amazing imagery in front of us, this has been really fascinating, thank you

xnfec

My initial reaction to the shared DNA between Armenians and Turks was not one of surprise. Assuming that the Turkish DNA was from modern Turkey then it is important to remember that people lived in Turkey long before the Turks arrived. I remember reading a book about the crusades that when the first crusade came to town, they had to deal with a large Armenian kingdom that bordered western Syria. When the Turks arrived eventually, they would have absorbed the local population. On the other hand, I've seen on TV a program about the Y chromosome which showed a chap from Kyrgystan whose DNA, via this chromosome, is present in most European males. If the Turkish DNA was from say Kazak Turks then it would be of some surprise, though there might well be a Scythian element here. Modern Armenia is in part of the old Scythian homelands (I think). As to the composite bow's weakness in the rain, the crossbow also has this problem. I remember reading about the early 100 years war where the French were defeated partly because their Genoese crossbowmen allowed their bow strings to get wet and hence become unusable. I guess the British longbow men were more careful. Loved the show and I'm a big fan of tangents, being rather prone to them myself. I look forward to the next excursion into this incredible history.

xnfec

Has anyone ever done DNA analysis of the Pashtun? Maybe they really are related to the Spartans?

Carl Zha

Pashtun DNA reveals lot of Steppes (Scythian) ancestry. They are close to the Pamir people who retained even more ancient steppes DNA. See pictures I posted of Chinese Tajiks on Gary Brecher Facebook page

Antoni Gumbau

As all episodes you do about China: amazing¡¡ And it's really interesting to see the developments that happen between China and Europe, the two giants in those ages in Eurasia. 👏👏

Antoni Gumbau

I wondered What's the opinión of Mr. Zha about Tonio Andrade's books about Chinese Military History (Age of gunpowder, and Lost Colony). I've read both, and coming from the handicap of being an Spaniard with null knowledge about Chinese history before the Chinese Revolution, found them amazing.

Carl Zha

Andrade is amazing and knows what he is talking about!

Md0

Brilliant maps. Only thing missing are the Risk game pieces :P Thanks!

Md0

I hope in future Chinese history with Carl episodes that you guys will talk a bit (more) about military hardware such as Chinese muskets, cannons and other gunpowder tech and how they compare to European versions. Also what were the reactions by the Chinese to European innovations etc. I think there's a huge gap in knowledge there among the more casual war nerds (i.e. Jared Diamond's BS argument of greater multipolarity in Europe than in China as to why military tech developed "faster" there etc.) Thanks

Carl Zha

watch this movie "Fall of Ming" if you haven't already. Setting is 1642 year of Rebellion during last years of Ming empire. Opening battle scene in the siege of Kaifeng is really well done with historically accurate weapons and armors, muskets and cannons with detachable cartridges. Someone has upload it on Youtube WITH English subtitles! Fall of Ming is an extremely messy affair with many contingencies. How do semi-nomadic hunters conquer the world's largest economy with 200 million people? In 1600s Ming China has 40% of the world's population, consume 50% of silver mined in Americas, with a highly centralized bureaucratic state unseen in other parts of the world until 100s years later. How do small band of hunters from frozen waste of Manchuria rise to conquer it all? Movie "Fall of Ming" really surprised me in neatly capturing the key elements in the Fall! I would add this to Eileen Jones War Movie recommendation list. <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgRMteY-o0k&t=102s" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgRMteY-o0k&t=102s</a>

Carl Zha

The Tongguan that General Sun was guarding in the movie is the Tong Pass (guan means pass) where Ma Chao fought Cao Cao's army in Romance of Three Kingdoms . Tong Pass guards the entrance to the ancient Chinese capital of Chang'an (modern day Xi'an). Tong Pass is also where Tang Imperial commander "General to Pacify the West" Gao Xianzhi (In Korean: Go Seonji)'s Western army made its last stand during the An Lushan Rebellion. Just like General Gao during Tang dynasty, General Sun was ordered by Ming emperor to march his army out of the Tong Pass and go crush the rebels in the plains below. See the movie to find out what happened... <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgRMteY-o0k&t=102s" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgRMteY-o0k&t=102s</a>

Md0

Brilliant!! Haven't seen this, and will definitely check it out. Thanks. Been going through Chinese documentaries recently like the daming palace you recommended and another on the Xia dynasty, though not entirely convinced about the whole erlitou culture being the origin of all the dynasties (maybe the only thing, is the prototypical palace design). I was actually curious if a bronze age collapse also occurred in China.

radiowarnerd

Hi Richard, yes we would love to talk to you. Can you write to us at radiowarnerd@gmail.com asap?

Carl Zha

Existence of Xia is still controversial. The main problem is that textual mention of Xia started in Zhou Dynasty, after they overthrew Shang Dynasty. But Shang oracle bones makes no mention of Xia. There are also suggestion that Erlitou is early Shang culture. Classical Chinese culture really begin with Zhou. Zhou culture is radically different from that of Shang. For one thing human sacrifice is frown upon in Zhou whereas Shang is more like the Aztec in that regards. But Shang was defintely more advanced when Zhou conquered it. It's basically barbaric border tribe of Zhou conquered a much more advanced bronze civilization. But as I said, classical Chinese culture really begin with Zhou conquest.

Carl Zha

Also you liked Daming Palace, to go with the " Fall of Ming" movie, you should check out this one "Liu Ru Shi" "Fall of the Ming" Movie really did a good job explain the fall. But it's about the chaos, plague,famine and rebellion that wreak havoc on Northern China during the last days of Ming empire. There was another world, a parallel tranquil world of splendor and luxury, gifted scholars and beautiful courtesan that existed South of Yangtze River in what Chinese called Jiangnan (literally South of the river, meaning Lower Yangtze Delta). This is the Southland of Wu in the Romance of Three Kingdoms/Dynasty Warriors. By 1630s, it had been the most prosperous and culturally rich area in China for a 1000 years, ever since the glory of Tang empire. Southland have been untouched by war, famine, plague and rebellion that wrecked the North China. Trade with Japan, Spanish Americas and South East Asia brought in much of the world's silver supply as well as high yield American Crops. It's the land of plenty and prosperity. But this world would soon fall to the conquering horde of Manchu Bannermen who burst out of frozen waste of Manchuria. How do you deal with defeat and the humiliation of being conquered? This movie really captures the beauty of Southland and also choices faced by Chinese elite during Ming collapse and Manchu conquest. The script was based on the biography of famous Chinese female poet/courtesan Li Ru Shi written by my personal favorite Chinese historian Chen Yinke. It describes how Manchu conquerors co-opted Han elite of former Ming with Imperial Civil Examination and choices faced by former Ming scholar-officials like we talked about in Radio War Nerd Taiping Rebellion episode. They make plenty of references in this movie to Tang Poet Li Bai and Du Fu and their poetry that War Nerd Gary Brecher brought up during the Battle of Talas episode. Beautifully shot, all in all a great movie! <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8w_zuTASww" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8w_zuTASww</a>