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Radio War Nerd EP #453 — Operation Bagration, Pt 1: Background, feat. Annibale (Patreon)

Published:
2024-06-30 20:22:03
Imported:
2024-06
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Content

Guest: Annibale

Recorded: June 28, 2024

We're joined by friend of the pod Annibale to discuss the Soviets' Operation Bagration in 1944, one of the most decisive military campaigns in history. This episode, Annibale sets up the back story to Bagration: the Tehran Conference in 1943, Soviet advances into western Ukraine in later 1943 and early 1944, and some background on D-Day.

First - We discuss a modern-day massacre, otherwise known as the Joe Biden debate performance.

At 16:45 - We begin the background to Operation Bagration

*Map of Eastern front 1943-44. Two darkest shades of red represent Soviet advances from mid-late 1943 through spring 1944.

*

Check out these related RWN episodes with Annibale:

*Annibale's Battle Of Kursk series-RWN EP #436  — Pt. 1: Introduction to the Battle of Kursk-RWN EP #439 — Pt. 2: Prokhorovka and the Nazi Retreat-RWN EP #444 — Pt 3: Myths & Memory

*Annibale's Italy on the Eastern Front series-RWN EP #226 — Pt. 1: Introduction, Fascist Italy's uneasy relationship with Nazi Germany-RWN EP #227 — Pt 2: Operation Barbarossa -RWN EP #228 — Pt 3: Battle of Nikolaevka & Fascist Collapse-RWN EP #231 — Pt. 4: POWs in the USSR-RWN EP #236 — Pt. 5: The POW Legacy

Total time: 1:35:24

Direct link to this episode's mp3 here

*

Subscribe to Radio War Nerd at patreon.com/radiowarnerd

Sound production by Telescope Audio

Check out the Radio War Nerd Merch store here!

Order your print or ebook of John Dolan's new book Erdogan Pizza: Dispatches from a Violent & Grotesque World

Files

Comments

John Waaben

Oh yeah, it’s a War Nerd Weekend!

MoldyTolge

We are just spoiled for Annibale content lately, glad he has the time to share with us.

Al Goehring

annibale lecture > hannibal lecter (ma diocan che scherzo idiota ho fatto…)

Annibale

A parte il fatto che metterci "Diocan" in pratica fissa la tua regione di provenienza :) :) ;)

Martin

Fantastic episode as always with Annibale! By any chance in this series, are you going to touch on why the Nazis kept investing resources into the Holocaust as they were losing in the Eastern Front? It always seemed insane to me that they would keep investing their precious industrial resources on the mass killing of Jews, Russians, Romani, etc. given Germany’s lesser industrial production. Or does it just boil down to their ideology?

Annibale

This is absolutely a central issue, particularly to explain Germany's politics at the time and the "rationale" (or lack thereof) of what that has done since 1943. I hope we will make space to discuss it soon!

Alejandro Pepsi

Wasn't expecting to get annible's take on "anime waifu's". This guy really is an expert in everything.

Tom Warner

maybe it's weird to have an "all-time favorite offensive" but Operation Bagration is my all-time favorite offensive, infinitely stoked to hear this one

drizzly_november

8 years old reading Waugh’s “Unconditional Surrender”… suddenly the mystery of Annibale becomes clearer and yet more beguiling.

Al Goehring

Oh I probably seem like a Northerner with the German name and Venetian slang! No I'm just a strange Italophile American, I'm not Italian at all, but my journey to learn more more Italian started with the "Germano Mosconi" blooper videos, and so Venetian dialect stuck with me. I would not exacly walk around St. Mark's square saying that.

a clash of purple

Come to think of it, Gunnar Hrafn Jonsson and Carl Zha are also polymaths that are knowledgeable about video games and anime... Maybe they should team up with Annibale and start their own podcast focused on that subculture.

NYCM&AHole

Another annibale series?!?! My cup runneth over!!

Laurence Peterson

The last two episodes have been classics! I have another request: can you Dom a piece on the maligned Gustavus Adolphus, and his perhaps undeserved legacy in Western imperial warfare? Thanks. I love this show!

drizzly_november

11 years old howling with laughter at Daffy Duck because he recognizes the Franz Liszt piece used in Nazi newsreels about the Eastern Front… for he is the war nerd Kwisatz Haderach!

R

Need the name of the looney toones episode mentioned so I can watch it

CR

Niall Ferguson is cumming to death at writing we’re in a late Soviet period this week. There is no American politician more deserving of the elder abuse going on in the White House. And the U.S. deserves this for letting this happen in the first place.

a clash of purple

Suddenly reminded of the scene in Inglorious Basterds where the British spy gets busted for his weird fake German accent.

Michael Conlin-Elsen

British late colonial counterinsurgency, more Soviet WWII annibale material—boy, these last episodes—are you guys trying to hit all the war nerd accupuncture meridians in my brain or what?

Damnboooi

I’m no fan of Churchill but there are several good reasons why he desperately wanted the Balkan strategy which Annibale talked about: 1. British manpower was at this point probably the most strained at this point of the war out of the big 3. They were trying very hard to limit casualties even if it meant being overly cautious. A serious failed invasion and the casualties associated with it would be incredibly difficult for Britain to bear at this point which is partly why they were cautious. The Dieppe raid colored British enthusiasm on cross-channel operations and their cost as well 2. In WW1 the oft forgotten Salonica front had breakthrough in late 1918 that really pushed the Germans to consider the armistice after their southern flank basically collapsed, hence the origin of the soft underbelly idea 3. Churchill was much more wary of communism than Roosevelt and wanted an allied presence in Eastern Europe to stop Soviet regional hegemony using classic British strategy of coalitions of smaller nations to prevent domination on one superpower Unfortunately for Churchill Britain was really just not a superpower on par with America and the USSR so his ideas didn’t have much influence. From a British perspective the southern strategy made sense but Britain was even then fading from great power status leaving the decisions about grand strategy to be made by her more powerful partners

Annibale

It's all very flattering, thank you, but the reality is very mundane and maybe disappointing: I read that book early because I was fascinated by its cover art as a toddler, Les Preludes was one of my favourite music pieces, so I investigated its history, and in Italy, it was easy to learn about "Deutsche Wochenschau" (and of course I was crazy about Daffy!). So, no real mystery.

Ellen Harold

We saw that. “Girls with Tanks” recommended to me by a former downstairs neighbor who was and still is very interested in war games. It was quite entertaining and slightly educational.

Annibale

Well, the moment you know about Germano Mosconi you mandatorily become Italian... there's no turning back! :)

Annibale

It could be worth discussing this in the next show. The recent research has cast doubt on all three points you mentioned. For example, David Reynolds's 2005 book on Churchill shows that many of Churchill's post-war statements about the decision process leading to Overlord and his own views are contradicted by documentary evidence. Churchill's strategy was not only ambiguous but also often confused and confusing. It's worth noting that Churchill's alleged unwavering support for an attack on the Balkans was not unwavering, and his real strategy included several attacks on different parts of Europe, such as "Jupiter", his pet project of an invasion of Norway. Additionally, Churchill's anti-communist obsession was not the main driver of his actions in Italy by the end of 1943, and writing off Churchill's strategy in the South as a mere effort to deter the Soviets is somehow. Britain's views on the Mediterranean region frequently shifted between the desire to maintain its status as a great power, fear of the Soviets, and avarice for France's former colonial empire, all based on unrealistic assumptions. Churchill was ready to deny these assumptions after the war. Furthermore, the success of Torch rather than the failure of Dieppe influenced Churchill's views on Overlord. It's also worth mentioning that his own view of Overlord's plan differed significantly from the actual operation.

Annibale

Also, one of the recurring themes of Churchill's post-war polemic was that he had always been right in distrusting Stalin and steadfast in his anti-communism and that the alliance with the Soviets had always been a marriage of convenience to destroy the more significant threat of Hitler. Conversely, he tried to paint FDR as "naive" and too trustful of Stalin's intentions. Again, this is contradicted by wartime evidence: not only did Churchill's relationship with Stalin turn out to have been much warmer than previously thought, but Churchill's reading of Stalin's actions and statement (see, for instance, the dissolution of the Comintern in, 1943) was way more positive than later alleged. At the same time, Churchill (and the idea of a "naive" FDR trusting every word of Stalin is absurd and contradicted by the evidence. The fact is that by 1944, there was a reasonable level of understanding between the Big Three. While post-war considerations had become necessary, there was the sense of a real wartime alliance, at least at that senior level. Things went belly up very quickly when FDR died and the war ended, but it was not necessarily a foregone conclusion (and definitely it wasn't for Stalin)

Damnboooi

Thanks Annibale, I didn’t realize there was original work being done currently on Churchills strategy and relationship with Stalin. To be clear I don’t agree with Churchills reasons, just felt like fleshing out why he kept bringing up the Balkans. I didn’t mention it but one of the problems in hyping up the WW1 Salonica breakthrough was that it occurred in the context of Germany struggling in the Western and Italian fronts, so a repeat of the Balkan strategy without more additional big fronts was likely not to be effective. Additionally I totally agree about the historiography which portrays FDR as a dupe and Churchills supposed far sightedness. The red army was going to be all over Eastern Europe, so FDR accepted the fait accompli as a political move to stay friendly with Stalin. I think one of the big ifs is what the post-war world might have looked like if FDR had managed to finish his 4th term and build a world order around cooperation and understanding with the soviets. Churchills supposed farsightedness about the devious nature of the soviets was part of the political climate that assumed hostile intentions and became a self-fulfilling prediction at the end of the war. It’s sad to think about what could have been.

Yairo Martis

Oh my God, the War Nerd has discovered Girls und Panzer!!

Sean Atkinson

Honestly, not knowing who Anibale is, is problematic. It is the foundational principle of rational thought to know the motivation of your sources.

Richard Kim

Never thought I'd hear Annibale mention Gunslinger Girl. It is such a bizarrely niche setting, but then again, niche is to be expected in the manga industry.

Christopher Small

Glad to see more on the late war Soviet war effort, which is a bit of a black hole in the public memory. One reason for the lopsided history I've heard, which I kind of like, is that a lot of the German commanders who fought on the Eastern front Pre-Kursk got rotated to the Western front, where postwar NATO commanders were eager to hear their side of the story. Meanwhile, the Russians just shot all the commanders who stuck around post Kursk (or put them in prison or something), and weren't about to tell their enemies their war the ins-and-outs of their tactics themselves. The framing I always heard for Churchill's obsession with the "soft underbelly" of Europe was that, as a naval power, Britain had usually conducted wars by working around the periphery. Such operations would play to Britain's strengths and maximize its leverage in negotiations, so there was typically an institutional bias towards them

Alan

Petition to raise funding to get Anibale a better mic

Tom Warner

I've also heard that Western historians have always had the best access to Western (obviously) and German records, while Soviet records have been much more of a black box. And by the time of Bagration and after, the Germans were losing so comprehensively that they could barely keep records in the field, and a lot of what they did presumably write down was lost in the chaos

Christopher Small

That’s a good point. And it probably didn’t help that the relatively thin staff of pre-war mid-level professional officers had largely been killed off by then

Christopher Small

The year is 2135. Weeb Belisarius is dispatched to settle the sectarian divide between anime girls who drive tanks and anime girls who ARE tanks, providing ample fodder for the recently de-thawed Annibelle to discuss in episode 345,231 of Radio War Nerd

Sean

Anibale calls in from a ham radio in an abandoned GLADIO safe house and that’s how we like it

Jack Ross

I love annibale. There should be an Annibale level of RWN patreon membership where I can pay him directly. On a side note, I would love to hear his thoughts on the Italian fascist era given his knowledge. You rarely get elaborations on it first hand from Italian historians. I haven’t come across many anyway..

Jack Ross

How about we get him on third mic instead

a clash of purple

He's not the only RWN guest to use a pseudonym. It's also not like he's trying to sell something. If he gets something wrong, accidentally or on purpose, who cares? And for the record, the foundational principle of rational thought is that reality has an inherently logical structure.

a clash of purple

I don't remember him mentioning Gunslinger Girl. I think you're thinking of a different anime. Gunslinger Girl is the one about the little girl abuse victims being turned into cyborg assassins (don't watch it, it's really gross and creepy in a bad way).

Alberto Panerai

I’d love for Annibale to continue this series with the Lvov-Sandomierz offensive!

Jason Thompson

OMG seriously! Can’t believe Annibale knows “Gunslinger Girl” AND Warhammer 40K! A true nerd! (I mean that positively of course!) I wonder if there’s a War Nerd episode on Japanese military anime but I can’t think of a guest expert who isn’t some kind of Japanese right-wing nationalist…

Jason Thompson

Gross and creepy it may be, but he said “Sharpshooter Girl” and I really cannot think of what other manga/anime he could be describing

Benke

Anime recomendation from John cought me off guard. Also, Annibale saying "anime waifu" with his amazing accent made my day.

Alejandro Pepsi

I recently listened through some of the RWN episodes w/ Carl Zha and they do have a digression about the Japanese tank girl thing. It's either in the sino-japanese war episode or the first u.s.-China cold War series.

Sean Atkinson

An anonymous account defends anonymity- based on the fact that ït's been done before". Yeah, OK.

JoR

I understand your premise but what difference does it make whether you know his full name? We know he's Italian, most likely northern Italian and probably an academic. You can also pretty easily infer his biases. You don't need to know his exact biases, you can srl remain as skeptical of him as any other guest or source the show uses.

Ivan Konstantinov

With reference to the manga mentioned, would be an awesome episode to talk about all the badass soviet women soldiers. The fact that a female Major asked Stalin to form a female-only bomber squadron, and that squadron would be called the Night Witches, just too good to ignore! Not to mention the greats like Shahina and Pavlichenko, who is considered one of the greatest snipers ever.

xnfec

The Germans mis-reading of the otherwise great aireal intelligence sounds like evidence of one of the biases. Namely seeing good evidence and picking out the bits that conform to your preconcieved ideas. Also, maybe there really are similarities between Churchill and Boris Johnson. Just not the ones that come out of the history that Churchill wrote about when he was being kind to himself.

Kevin Walsh

If memory serves,the protagonists of Girls und Panzer didn't have T34s - they had a miscellany of low quality light tanks, like whatever the Italians had in WW2, so that they could be the underdogs regardless of what their opponents were fielding.

William

Fuck Churchill that stupid drunk fuck

William

Damn. Might need to use your own critical thinking skills and evaluate his arguments for yourself

William

Genocide deNiall Ferguson

adam jones

His information is either right or wrong. I don't think it matters who he is.

Will M

He's giving an openly opinionated presentation of history drawing on literature which anyone - including yourself - can look at and assess. He's not here giving a first hand account of otherwise undocumented affairs!

Jed Hovey

I've been busy and am still catching up on episodes, but glad to hear more about the Eastern Front of WWII. I think the best American book about WWII in Europe was probably Slaughterhouse Five by Kurt Vonnegut. It talks about the firebombing of Dresden a lot, but it's a stand in for Allied bombing of civilians in Europe more generally. Still love the line about how Vonnegut intended it as an anti war boom, but anti-war books were about as effective as anti-glacier books. War as almost a force of nature that just sort of happens, hence the extreme fatalism of the boom in general.

Doug Cartel

If I had a reason for why Italians blamed american bombers killing their families on italy, it must be that they were fed up with Mussolini ruining the country long before that point so when the bombs did fall it just made them feel much better about stringing him up

Cameron Young

Annibale saying porky pig made me smile so wide