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Radio War Nerd #85—William Hogeland on America's First (Forgotten) War 1790-94 (Patreon)

Published:
2017-05-23 16:03:01
Imported:
2026-06

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Guest: William Hogeland, author of "Autumn of the Black Snake: The Creation of the U.S. Army and the Invasion That Opened the West"

The War Nerd talks to historian William Hogeland (guest on RWN EP #63 ) about his new book  on America's first war in the early 1790s against a confederation of Indian nations — and how the USA's disastrous early defeats led to the creation of the US Army . . . Hogeland recovers the lost history of this undeclared war, starting with the worst military defeat in US history, a battle with no name that nearly wiped out the entire US military . . . Hogeland introduces some incredible characters in this war, including Indian commanders Little Turtle and Blue Jacket, as well as American commander Anthony Wayne, "The Black Snake" and his boss, President George Washington—America's first "real estate developer president". . . 

Afterwards, the War Nerd & Ames discuss Trump's bombing of pro-Assad militias in western Syria, IS slaughter of Shia villagers, Afghanistan Vice President Dostum's gang-rape problem . . . 

Total time: 2:33:42

Direct link to this episode's mp3  here 

Buy William Hogeland's fantastic new book "Autumn of the Black Snake: The Creation of the U.S. Army and the Invasion That Opened The West" 

Hogeland was our guest on RWN 63  to talk about the Whiskey Rebellion  & the  things they don't teach you about America's Founding Fathers...

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Comments

Gerhard Stoltz

A minimum of 20 000$? a month for doing these would make most people slightly cheerful, methinks. But hey, its great listening so thanks a lot.

Gerhard Stoltz

And having read Dolan's horror stories about his life over the years i consider it a well earned rest.

Kevin Walsh

Gonna nitpick about Dostum - he was a Parchami communist and led a pro-PDPA militia until the Soviet Union collapsed, at which point he decided to switch sides and depose the government he had fought for. I definitely wouldn't count him out - he's been in exile several times before.

Avery

This is my favorite book by Hogeland yet. This is exactly as important and complex a story as he claims, and precisely as whitewashed out of history as he says. The book doesn't feel overwritten like the Whiskey Rebellion book because there are simply so many interests to take into account, and the characters are really fascinating. It's not my specialization but I am glad I bought it

Avery

Really appreciating this podcast as well, since he is elaborating on a lot of stuff he didn't cover in the book

David Maginnis

I like happy Dolan,he deserves it. John ... had a hard life.

eh

Dunbar-Ortiz's An Indigenous Peoples's History of the United States is a decent survey of the settler origins of the US state and the series of conflicts and genocides it led to (including the wars in Ohio which get a couple pages). There is a certain ennobling tendency but she is a trained historian and brings in complications and cleavages among the indigenous peoples, and taking a clear stance brings a drive that I doubt a "neutral" academic survey would have had, and the scale and absolute relentlessness of the US landgrab is hammered in. I'd also say it answers the question if there was anything that could have been done to avoid displacement and genocide as she describes a wide range of strategies and social changes that all wind up with the described nation being wiped out, from villages in Ohio adopting christianity and "European" dress and writing to Seminole elite groups recasting themselves as slaveholding plantation owners on the southern model - there really was no way they could be integrated in the US if the colonial project was to succeed.

eh

I'd also like to point out that she is clear on the US state coopting or aligning with parts of "oppressed nationalities", from using wars between Indian nations for their own ends to the sad story of the Buffalo Soldiers, which strikes me as something like a US version of how the Brits would shuffle around colonial troops in India and their African holdings.

eh

Oh, and one of my favorite claims from that book is that scalping originates in the British conquest of Ireland and was brought over to the colonies, as it was how the authorities tallied bounties paid out to irregulars doing the actual work of "clearing" land, and was later adopted as counterterror by affected groups.

eh

If someone wants military history she heavily cites John Grenier's The First Way of War, which from the summary she gives is about the US Army's origin in irregular ranger regiments involved in population displacement and counterinsurgency.

Avery

The crux of Hogeland's book, as John and Mark described, is that the British were never actually planning to treat the Indians as full allies. Britain was pioneering a practical segregation between full state actors and less powerful and useful ethnic interests, who could be used and discarded at will. This was the "nasty business" that made British policy effective.

Patrick Reilly

Just got my copy of AUTUMN OF THE BLACK SNAKE in time for Memorial Day Weekend reading!

eh

Oh no doubt, that's what I got from the interview, and I'll probably pick it up at some later date, but I didn't want to put anyone off my book recommendation by implying it was pure hagiography.

tong

Mark, I love you man, but you gotta provide evidence or at least examples if you're going to say liberals are supporting the CIA over democratic accountability. You tried to say that Ruth Marcus of all people was a liberal a couple months ago & Perlstein rightly called you on it. You were doing this before when you claimed that the entire American left was for over throwing Assad when it's more like a handful of classhole trot interventionists. Anyway, love the show & looking forward to reading the new Hogeland book.

Zacharias Bowen

What is the ID on the lovely ambient song playing during the interlude (1:55)?

tong

What does this have to do with Rick Perlstein?

tong

Also, those are EXACTLY the classhole trot interventionists I was talking about so I am baffled at what you're sending this foolishness to me for