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Radio War Nerd EP #90 — First Sino-Japanese War, with Carl Zha (Patreon)

Published:
2017-06-28 20:33:36
Edited:
2017-06-28 21:15:02
Imported:
2026-06

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Content

Guest: Carl Zha

The War Nerd talks to popular RWN guest Carl Zha about the mostly-forgotten but pivotal First Sino-Japanese war of 1894-5. Everyone knows about it in Asia, because the war shattered centuries-old assumptions and relationships. Carl walks us through the background of the war, and the decisive battles in the Korean battlefield...

Here's a link to a helpful map of the war. And a whole page of war images courtesy of Carl Zha.

Afterwards, we discuss the latest Russia hysteria hijinx... 

Total time: 2:40:09

Direct link to this episode's mp3 here.

Files

Comments

Eli Burnes

Came back to this episode after several years - because I just visited the Yushukan Military History Museum last week. It was pretty much as Carl Zha described it. It combines genuinely interesting pieces of history going back hundreds of years with an unrepentant retelling of WW2 or “Great East Asian War”. Comedic highlight: there’s a display about the various Asian independence movements “inspired by Japan” ranging from the more reasonable like India and Indonesia to SPECIFICALLY Ho Chi Minh’s North Vietnam with the red flag and everything!

DylanY Zou

Came into this episode 9 years late specifically to comment that I figured out recently that the Qing admiral Ding Ruchang is my great-great uncle

Jason Thompson

OMG. You finally used some Militaristic Anime Art! XD (There's so much of this -- for absolutely shameless military fetishism google "Pixel Maritan")

eh

There's a good collection of Japanese woodprints depicting this war at <a href="https://ocw.mit.edu/ans7870/21f/21f.027/throwing_off_asia_02/index.html," rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">https://ocw.mit.edu/ans7870/21f/21f.027/throwing_off_asia_02/index.html,</a> the other units also include the Opium Wars, the Russo-Japanese War and the Boxer Rebellion. Can't speak for all the essays but the ones by John W Dower were decent, as is his book War Without Mercy: Race and Power in the Pacific War which talks about the different models of racism in Japan and USA and how they were mobilized throughout and after World War 2. I found this collection after purchasing the remaindered exhibit catalog "De hundra skratten" at Östasiatiska Museet in Stockholm last week as the afterword mentioned it, and I'd recommend any other listeners close by to pick one up, it's remaindered at 20 kr and is a hardcover with nice paper quality. Unlike the linked gallery it only reproduces the more cartoonstyled prints, but there's more of them and the jingoistic anti-Chinese harangues are translated on the facing pages.

Carl Zha

We didn't have time to do a deep dive of Japan's Meiji Restoration which catapulted Japan to World Power. I would highly recommend NHK drama "Clouds over the Hill" (Saka no Ue no Kumo) which follows lives of three friends (2 brothers) thru Meiji Reform to 1st Sino-Japanese War and Russo-Japanese War. It's told from the Japanese perspective. YouTube link with English subtitles here: <a href="https://youtu.be/87YMLoT72z8" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">https://youtu.be/87YMLoT72z8</a>

Patrick Reilly

War Without Mercy is one of the best military history reads I ever had. As just a taste, I learned therefrom that the Japanese Leadership doomed the war effort by deciding that developing anti-submarine assets would be pointless, as Caucasians lacked the stamina for submarine warfare. That decision alone, regardless of the Atomic bomb, would have cost Japan any hope of victory in WW2.

Avery

Clouds above the Hill the TV show is based on a very good historical novel which is also available in English translation. Highly recommend it for summer reading

eh

The text of those prints are mainly mockery of Chinese for their cultural and technological backwardness, with special mockery reserved for their claimed cowardice and backwards Asian habits, there's one where a Japanese child playing with toy soldiers scares off a Chinese man and a lot of them are about chopping off queues as some kind of marker for everything the Japanese are trying to distance themselves from. In a way it gels with the Dower book (which I might be misrepresenting slightly, it was a while since I read it) as what he claims is that the Japanese put themselves in a dual bind where they both tried to modernize on the Western model with subjugation of colonies turned into purely extractive economies and at the same time portray themselves as the leading light of the colored peoples of the world that stood up to Western aggression, so what they tried to do instead of stressing racial "biological" purity like the Americans or Germans was talk up their cultural cohesion and purity. The "Yamato race" wasn't necessarily marked by individual biological superiority like in the models of racism they would have been exposed to, but the Japanese had a uniquely coherent tradition that made them into a united nation that wouldn't splinter under foreign assault. It worked up to a limit, as the Chinese anti-Qing nationalists sometimes tried to model themselves on Japan (particularly early on, Sun Yat-sen spent some time in Japan and Lu Xun got his medical training there) and they had some cooperation with Indian nationalists, but they quickly turned as impopular as any of the Western imperial powers in their colonies as the economic realities of empire meant they had to mobilize cultural chauvinism in ways just as violent and exploitative as the British or Americans or French used racism.

Matthew C

Great episode. I'm curious, have you guys done any episodes on the internal politics of modern Russia? As an American its tough to find actual information from people who have lived there and can actually understand the language. If not that, some book or show recommendations would be great.

Carl Zha

Yes, the Japanese author Shiba Ryōtarō is famous for writing historical novels. In fact he adopted the name Shiba Ryōtarō 司马辽太郎to mean that his talent is very far from that of Han Dynasty Chinese Grand Historian Sima Qian 司马迁, Shiba is the Japanese pronounciation of Chinese character 司马(Sima in Modern Mandarin). His idea is that Meiji period Japan is full of bright hope and optimism. The TV series was adapt in 2009 in the depth of Global Financial Crisis. It was meant to inspire a Japan mired in difficulty, to remind Japanese people that they have risen from much more difficult and humble beginning to become a respected world power. The TV show is also very popular in China because the period and subject is intertwined with Chinese history (Imperial China's fall from grace and humiliating decline).

Richard Kim

As Carl briefly mentioned, Japan's adoption of Chinese culture in the 7th century can be thought of as its first "westernization" and it's interesting to note that Japan still drew on some Chinese concepts for their second westernization in the 19th century. For example, the famous Meiji-era slogan "Fukoku Kyouhei" (literally meaning "Rich country, Strong army" ) is simply the Japanese pronunciation of the Chinese phrase "Fuguo Qiangbing (富国強兵)" which was lifted out of a strategy book from China's warring states period. Another interesting borrowing is the use of the Chinese phrase Woxin Changdan (pronounced in Japanese as Gashin Shoutan). This phrase literally means “to sleep on brushwood and taste gall,” and it’s used to refer how one should endure painful times in order to exact revenge later (the phrase originates from a famous historical episode in the life of King Goujian of Yue). Now Carl didn’t really emphasize this in the show, but Japan was deeply outraged by how Russia, France, and Germany intervened in the peace treaty to prevent Japan from gaining control of Liaodong Peninsula. And so this Chinese phrase became a popular phrase among the Japanese public, and it paid off with Japan’s victory over Russia in the Russo-Japanese war. Curiously enough, while the Japanese were uttering Gashin Shoutain, the Chinese were also uttering Woxin Changdan as a sort of nationalist rallying cry inbetween the two Sino-Japanese wars. In any case, it’s a cool example of how East Asian states all share a common memory of Chinese history and culture to an extent.

Richard Kim

Also, for any naval war nerds that want more detail into Japan's strategy and tactics behind the first Sino-Japanese war, I highly recommend Kaigun: Strategy, Tactics, and Technology in the Imperial Japanese Navy, 1887-1941. Very detailed and informative but not too dense of a read as long as you're a military history-nerd.

Carl Zha

Trailer for 2008 Taiwanese Hakka film, "Blue Brave: The Legend of Formosa in 1895" about Hakka resistance against Japanese Invasion after Qing Imperial Court has ceded Taiwan to Japan. Beautiful Music. The Full movie in Hakka language with Chinese subtitles available on Youtube, but I haven't seen any with English subtitiles. <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDOrIh3H8SA" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDOrIh3H8SA</a>

HT Dong

Is the text of the Sa Zhenbing poem up somewhere? I'm bad with searching for that stuff (illiterate)

Carl Zha

Richard, You need to come back to do the Tang-Goguryeo-Silla-Baekje-Yamato War because that war left such deep impression on Japan that they started to adopt Chinese culture on massive scale. After that you need to do Imjin War, aka Japanese invasions of Korea (1592–98).

Richard Kim

Yeah, it'll be fun to eventually get to them. An interesting thing to point out is that while most people and overview-history books paint Japan as borrowing exclusively from China in the 7th century, after Japan's defeat to Tang in the Korean wars, there was a break-off of Japanese diplomatic missions right when they were passing Chinese-style legal/administration reforms. So when you take a closer look at how Japan managed to do this without any help from Chinese people, you see that a lot of the so-called Chinese reforms passed right at the start of the 7th century were actually Sino-Korean reforms. By Sino-Korean, I mean that there were Korean immigrant/refugees helping the Japanese court implement these laws which were based on how the Koreans implemented Chinese law rather than how the Chinese implemented Chinese law. In practice, though, these Sino-Korean laws would further be modified to fit the Japanese context, so it's more like Sino-Korean-Japanese law, but hardly anyone calls it that because it's a mouthful. I feel this point is an important corrective for understanding how cultural transmission works. That is to say, both borrowers and intermediaries usually leave their distinct mark on whatever they're receiving or passing on. Sometimes, you hear Chinese or Korean right-wing nationalists claim that Japan's nothing but a copycat, but Japan, like with other cultures, was always very selective about what to adopt. The fact that they weren't simply uncreative copycats even when using foreign specialists, whether in the 7th century or the 19th century, is an important factor to their culture's success.

Richard Kim

Woops, I meant late 7th century, not early 7th century.

Carl Zha

Admiral Sah Chen-Ping (Sa Zhenbing, 薩鎮冰)'s poem in Chinese and different English translations. 1st one is mine: 五十七載猶如夢， 舉國淪亡緣漢城， 龍遊淺水勿自棄， 終有揚眉吐氣天。 57 years like a dream, entire country's ruin started in Seoul Oh Dragon swimming in shallows, don't you give up, You will rise again with your head high and your bellow thru the heavens echo Alternatively, 57 years like a dream, entire country's ruin started in Seoul Oh Dragon swimming in shallows, don't give up, You will rise again with head high and your bellow heard thru the sky! Alternative translations from Chinese netizens: 1 A span of fifty seven years, a dream, From City on the Han destruction comes to all the country, beached dragon don't despair, the day of high head will arrive. 2 Dream, I has been wandering in it for 57 years, Seoul, the place the entire country had fallen from, Shallows, the entrapped dragon never ceased fighting, Roar, the trumpet of victory resounds through the earth and sky. 3 From Hancheng the Empire fell to its demise, Fifty seven years hence, in torpor, unable to rise. In scorching blaze the phoenix perseveres, ‘til the day of rebirth, ascend, and reclaim thy prize! Finally from Google Translate: Fifty-seven as a dream, The country fell to Seoul, Longyou (Note: dragon swim) shallow water do not give up, Finally proud of the day!

Carl Zha

I posted Chinese and English translation below in the comments

Carl Zha

Sunzi said: know yourself, know your enemy, you will win hundred battles! :D

Carl Zha

Marshal Ye Jianying is nick-named "Flower Marshal" because he has quite an exploits with the ladies. story for another time :p

Crazy B0nkers

Somewhat related there's also the 5-hour saga "Seediq Bale", about the wars of the Taiwanese aborigines against the Japanese and amongst themselves.

Carl Zha

Seediq Bale, Warriors of the Rainbow is a great Taiwanese Movie. In fact the 5 minutes shows Qing surrender to Japan and Taiwanese (historically mostly Hakka militia) Resistance. The tiger flag cut in half by Japanese Army captain is the flag of Republic of Taiwan. Taiwan was proclaimed independent Republic to get around the fact that it was cede to Japan by Qing Imperial Government. Republic of Taiwan's President Liu Yongfu was originally a Taiping Rebel. Liu has led remnant of Taiping Black Flag Army into Vietnam where he fought French colonial Army in Sino-French War. As part of settlement of Sino-French War, he return to China, later was posted with his Black Flag Army to Taiwan as part of the Qing Imperial Force.

Dan S-P

Truly brilliant but what else should we expect!!

Dan S-P

It appears the democrats have turned into Captain Nolan at balaclava, shouting "there are your guns sir" indiscriminately pointing off into the middle distance. Shortly followed by the democrats charging into the electoral valley of death

Dan S-P

Tortured analogy, I know....

Tupac Chopra

@Carl Zha: How industrialized was Japan at the time of the first Sino-Japanese war? There is no doubt that they had a front-rank military. But I half-remember reading accounts that, as late as WWII, the Japanese civilian economy largely relied on artisans and cottage industries.

Carl Zha

Japanese cruiser Hashidate, Yaeyama, Akitsushima all build by Yokosuka Naval Arsenal of Japan Whereas only Chinese ironclad coastal ship Pingyuan and corvette Kwan Chia was build by Foochow Arsenal of China. In 1909 when Qing empire rebuild the Imperial Navy, Chinese official went around the world ordering warships. Beside order placed in Britain and Germany, Qing ordered two warships from Japan.

Factory Troll

I'm getting sick and tired of you guys discussing the reality show called American politics and accompanying Russia panic in the "world of wars" segment, not so much because of its incredibly predictable awfulness/stupidity (again the line in between the two is not clearly defined), but mainly because of its shocking irrelevance. If you have to talk about this shit, please keep it down to 5 minuets, so you can move on to stuff that is actually relevant or at least genuinely interesting as opposed to just morbidly fascinating.

Hansen Ding

Hey Carl. Is this movie related to the Formosan Republic or is it more about Partisans? (Looks gorgeous BTW, gotta give it to Taiwan's film industry their cinematography is consistently amazing)

Mark Ames

Thanks for that Woxin Changdan nugget, gonna put it on my coat of arms

Tom Muller

Great episode, guys. Just some brief comments: Nara *was not* inspired by Chang'an. That was Heian-kyo, the City of Heavenly Peace, which was built to replace Nara. Also, I wish Carl had touched on (what I humbly think is) one of the main reasons for the recent flare-up of Chinese nationalism: Tiananmen. Deng wanted Japanese investment in the 1980s but after 1989 and the collapse of European socialism, Chinese nationalism became a legitimizing force for the gov.

Tom Muller

Japan was the world's eighth or ninth largest economy in the eary 1900s. Qing China was the second, but with a vaster population base and more natural resources.

Tupac Chopra

Fair enough. *France* in fact had a lot of cottage industry as late as WWII. I guess all things are relative.

Factory Troll

Yes, you heard me, irrelevant. You may spend all day, every day, watching a Tv-show, or reading a book, then have all your friends talk about it, have every politician talk about it, and have all the pundit shitheads on CNN and WaPo talk about how much this thing influence the election, and the war in Syria and the future of everything. Of course, to you, this will seem like the most relevant, indeed the only relevant, contemporary event in the world. But for everyone else who lives outside of your distorted reality, this hysteria is just one of many events shaping the present moment, and far from being all-consuming and all-important. So why do I say irrelevant and not just less relevant? Because there was absolutely nothing new to this. Ames has spent a fair amount of time dissecting every angle of this story, which I much appreciate, but for the time being there is nothing more to be said. In fact, this story hasn’t developed much for the last handful of months – it’s in “wax on wax off mode” – which makes continued discussion painfully boring and totally irrelevant. And what do I think is going on in Syria (or everywhere else in the world for that matter). Good question, I came here to have Mark and John help explain me, but all I could hear was more blabbering about some lame piece of crap issued by the WaPo. (first two hours with Carl Zha is class though)

Carl Zha

1895 in Formosa is specifically about Hakka militia Resistance which is part of the Formosan Republic. Hakka was the most anti-Qing group. But after suppression of Hakka rebellion, Qing government found Hakka militia useful on Taiwan. Hakka Militia was the main military force of the Formosan Republic and backbone of the Resistance against Japan

Carl Zha

Thanks to Mark Ames raising the question about corruption controversy revolving around non-explosive shells used by Beiyang Fleet, and Gabriel Uriarte 's facebook post comparing to Argentinian airforce's Falkland War experience; I did some research into this issue. It turns out corruption was not the problem The concrete or sand filled shells are suppose to be armor piercing shells! Back then they didn't have time delayed fuse. But it did reveal another problem! Because Qing Imperial Finance Department issued an edict suspending further purchases of foreign ammunition in 1891, 3 years before the outbreak of war, Beiyang Fleet had to rely on domestic manufacturers. However Jiangnan and Tientsin Arsenal at the time could only produce mostly low-tech Solid non-explosives shells. Only when War was about to break over Korea, did Tientsin Arsenal produce an emergency batch of explosive shells and they are rather shoddy in quality because of lack of tech and expertise. As result, when Chinese flagship Dingyuan set sail for Yalu River (to be ambushed) , it had only 55 domestically produced explosive shells. Those shells were used up in first half hour of the battle. For the remaining 4 and 1/2 hours, Dingyuan had to use solid shells! In contrast, Japanese naval engineer Shimose developed Shimose Powder from picric acid which is way more powerful than black powder and Japanese Arsenal managed to produce en mass. Japanese navy widely adopted Shimose powder in 1893, just one year before the Sino-Japanese War! So not a corruption problem but really lower level of technology and manufacturing problem compared to Japan which already leapt ahead. This really goes to show again that Qing China was mostly reactive. The Beiyang Fleet was seen more as a status symbol. As such solid concrete shells were enough for normal training purposes. When war broke out both the navy and its logistics department got caught flat footed. Whereas Japanese military program benefited from long term planning for conquest.

Antoni Gumbau

Love When Carl talks about China. As Spaniard, When Carl talks about the French invasion of Indochina between 1858 and 1862. The Spanish helped with some units of infantry from Philippines (part of Spain in those days). Those were the days When Spain also intervened in Morocco (War of África), South América (the bombing of Callao) and the expedition in México (which Spain left with the English before the French brought the Habsburg emperor). Those were the last imperial wars were Spain was victorious before the 1898 War against USA... I Hope Carl will talk about the Imjin Wars soon. Thanks for such Good times.

Tupac Chopra

Carl, can you recommend a good survey book on Chinese history in English?