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Radio War Nerd EP #504 — M23 and the Congo Wars, Pt 1: Background (Patreon)

Published:
2025-02-28 23:34:30
Edited:
2025-02-28 23:35:31
Imported:
2025-03
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Recorded: February 26, 2025

The War Nerd begins a 2-part series on the M23 rebels and the Congo wars with a brief history of the region's messy & gory 20th century and the aftermath colonial rule...

*Maps

Total time: 1:07:02Direct link to this episode's mp3 here

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Subscribe to Radio War Nerd at patreon.com/radiowarnerd

Sound production by Telescope Audio

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Order your print or ebook of John Dolan's new book Erdogan Pizza: Dispatches from a Violent & Grotesque World

Files

Comments

Josh Thompson

Been looking forward to this episode

NYCM&AHole

Looking forward to the later eps where I’ll figure out what my boss was doing there last year.

Winston Reid

Sticking with the great RWN tradition of posting an episode the day of a major international event.

NYCM&AHole

Nah the best was the ep they posted like the day before true promise II kicked off.

William

With RWN on the case, nothing Congo wrong

Sven

Bi N uhyu

JoR

Have you guys spoke about Michael Rubin , the author/historian, before? I want to say he's 90s Russia related ,probably not a traditional "friend of the show". But as I was trying to read up on Congo news recently, I came across his article, critical of Rubio and the Trump administrations "approach" to the situation. I expected yet another article shaming Rwanda and the Tutsi, like John described, but instead it was actually maybe the only article I've seen with a neutral/positive approach to the M23 and Rwanda. https://www.aei.org/op-eds/america-should-side-with-the-rebels-in-the-democratic-republic-of-congo/ Not sure if this is a "broke clock strikes twice" or if Rubin is usually good. But either way it was decently refreshing to see this on the first few results of a Google search, and not buried pages deep

Isaac Suárez

The Romanian mercenaries remind me of the so called “White Legion” that fought for Mobutu against the AFDL offensive in the early 1990s. Rather than Romanians, the soldiers of the “White Legion” were mostly Serbs. Their commander was infamous for drunkenly joy riding in the city around their base (I think it was Kisangani but I could be misremembering) and for firing his weapon at civilians during these romps. Despite their relatively good pay, training and weapons, the “White Legion” fought poorly- their commanders getting into repeated feuds with other European mercenaries and locals- and their units struggling with insufficient ammo and replacement parts for their vehicles. The Legionaires surrendered after less than a week of fighting- putting up more of a fight than the Zairean Army (which was as useless back then too) but still being totally outclassed by the Rwandans and their allies. History may not repeat but it certainly rhymes. Tshekedi, the DRC’s current president, was a leader of the anti Mobutu opposition in Kinshasa- so he was likely playing a card straight from the deck of his old rival.

Matthew Thrunnowicki

John - the reason that the Rwandan genocide doesn’t cost Washington DC sleepless nights is because Kagame was entirely backed by the west, and instructed them (ie- the Clinton Administration) to stay out of the conflict, which they did. And subsequently did their bidding on the continent. I also strongly encourage you to check out Justin Podur’s “America’s Wars on Democracy in Rwanda and the DR Congo” and Judi Rever’s “In Praise of Blood” for a more macro-view of the Rwandan civil war (within which the months labeled “genocide” were only a part). Your analysis has to include the 1972 Burundi genocide, and the Ndadaye assassination. And maybe research a suppressed thing known as the Gersony report. Also- the Rwandan military didn’t possess the SA-16 missiles that shot down Habyarimana’s plane. But the RPF did- Moscow even verified that the serial numbers of the missiles used (manufactured in 1987) were sold to Museveni.

Soda enthusiast

Apparently museveni was a student of Walter Rodney at the university of dar es salaam

William

The US guarantees democracy in the countries of all its allies, unless they choose the wrong candidate

TheEroticBarber

Israel and Kagame's dictatorship are really really really close, Israel even arms the Rwandan military. That shouldn't be ignored.

RT

Another importance for coltan: several of its components (like niobium) are vital solute elements in nickel-base superalloys, giving these alloys uniquely high strength retention under elevated temperature service. Used in jet engine and turbine internals. Alloy 718 is the most common wrought nickel superalloy accounting for like 2/3rd of nickel superalloy production, maintains high strength above 600 C, and requires about 5% niobium by weight

Christopher Small

*John and Mark criticizing leftists for Rwanda genocide conspiracies* Me: “Huh? Is that something leftists do? I feel like John’s just thinking of some guy who annoyed him when he worked in academia again” John: “That reminds me of an obnoxious roommate my friend had back when I was at Berkeley…” Me: “Yup, that’s it”

Justin Scott Blake

The Warpcore. Dilithium crystals are needed to run the Warpcore.

Igor Igorsson

Yeah, I have thought something similar. I remember John bringing it up at some earlier point, thinking "I've never heard anything about that", despite growing up around active leftwingers, and being one myself since the 90s.

Podconsoomer

I’ve seen it before unfortunately

Ana

Rhania Khalek has been calling Rwanda "the Israel of Africa" lately. Why the BBC ran a documentary in 2014 that basically blamed Tutsis for it or why the US has sanctioned M23 if the west loves Rwanda so much I don't think they'd be able to tell us lol.

Podconsoomer

She suck’s on Africa in general, she blames tplf for the tigray genocide the same way she slanders tutsis

jkjkjkj

Another point I think is often forgotten as to why the FARDC forces are so shit is that the Second Congo Wars peace terms involved integrating former militias and rebel groups into the FARDC and reassigning them to other parts of the country to ensure they don’t entrench themselves in their home provinces (this was a big problem for groups like the RCD/CNDP/M23). Redeployed soldiers were often sent very very far away. Unsurprisingly, poorly payed soldiers with no local connections or loyalty often don’t really give a shit about the people in the places they’re redeployed to.

jkjkjkj

Also to follow up, I’m not sure I agree that the Rwandan genocide of Tutsis (or the ubiquitous hatred of both Tutsis and Hutus in the DRC) doesn’t matter in the west. The repression of the FDLR (even in its presently greatly diminished form) is more or less the total justification by the Kagame regime of its existence and it’s quite common for western politicians to look the other way wrt Kagame’s machinations in Kivu purely due to a sympathy for Rwandas need to combat the FDLR and Hutu extremism generally (in some cases quite explicitly). Finally, a counter blood bath did occur following the genocide of Tutsis, but it wasn’t in Rwanda proper. Rather, RPF forces pursued Hutu refugees (and the FDLR) into the DRC a few years after and massacred them in the DRC.

jkjkjkj

Jason Stearns would also be good, and he’s fairly mainstream

B.J. Dart

Thank you for covering DRC. Its a favorite topic of mine as you noted it's neglected in English language sources.

George P

Love all the shows you do about African conflicts, always informative

Michael Conlin-Elsen

Few know how far back this actually started— In '66 and '7, they fought the Congo War. With their fingers on their triggers; Knee deep in gore.

Ander Pierce

I actually heard this conspiracy theory from a PSL guy and wasn't educated enough to know better.

Clammy_Damp

“This is where it gets complicated” at 43 minutes in made me chuckle

jkjkjkj

Rwandan genocide denial is like Cambodian or Bosnian genocide denial in the sense that it had a pull among certain segments of the left at the time but unlike Cambodian or Bosnian genocide denial (which the left has always had to have its reputation attached to to at least some degree) left wing Rwandan genocide denial has been largely memory holed. Sadly, even influential figures like Ed Herman and Chomsky pushed some variation of that theory in the 90s (Herman fairly explicitly, while Chomskys was more subtle)

jkjkjkj

They have similar expansionist views as well

Quinn

wanted a congo wars episode for so long, shame its because its so relevant again but happy to have it nonetheless

Quinn

Great episode! I have a pretty serious contestation on the issue of RPF reprisals, but since I'm not an authority on the topic I'll put it in reference to the literature I got it from, specifically Gerard Prunier's Africa's World War. Please note this is an entirely distinct objection from the revisionism you are referring to that rationalizes/minimizes/to any degree apologizes for Hutu Power or the genocide of Tutsis. That absolutely exists, and I am most familiar with it because Prunier repeatedly describes and condemns it, as well as other willful ignorances and callousness of the west, in language that echoes exactly what you're describing in this episode. But Prunier (among others, but I'm more familiar with and confident in Prunier's scholarship) presents extensive evidence of many very bloody reprisal massacres by the RPF, both in Rwanda while/after taking power, and in the DRC among refugees. According to Prunier's sources, RPF consolidation did absolutely involve vicious, bloody reprisals, not only against Hutus but against Tutsis, who were identified as "collaboraters" for attending "peace and reconciliation committees" that the RPF organized. This also included reprisals against people who were of mixed or unsure heritage, which in an old place that speaks the same language like Rwanda is a lot of people. Note that Prunier does NOT agree with classifying RDF reprisals as genocide, and argues extensively AGAINST any revisionism that try to minimize or apologize for Hutu Power. In fact, he had previously spoken out with particular praise for the RPF conduct in ending the genocide and consolidating Rwanda, so it is in part self-corrective. Nonetheless the extensive evidence he cites for the RDF/RPF's reprisal massacres make it less a question of whether or not they happened, but a question about the definition of genocide. As is mentioned in the episode, these kind of reprisals are neither unique or especially surprising, but I think it is still clearly important to acknowledge their reality, and how it's shaped the contemporary situation. As for the silence in western media about the existence and nature of these reprisals, Prunier attributes it in part due to the temporary embarassment of the west during the Rwandan genocide news cycle in which it looked bad for the alleged shepherds of human rights and democracy to have to account for their ambivalence (and in the case of France outright complicity) right at the dawn of the new post-soviet optimism. After that, and more significantly, Prunier thinks that the west (audiences, reporters, and politicians alike) are simply uninterested and impatient when it comes to stories coming out of Africa. And besides simply losing interest, as soon as a conflict takes on any more complicated dimensions, they revert immediately to tropes about Africa's backwardness and tribalism etc. and are able to handwave it. In Praise of Blood by Judi Rever explicitly argues the double-genocide thesis, and seems fairly well-attested to in terms of scholarship and credibility, but I didn't finish it as I found it to be a bit too sensationalist and dramatic considering the stakes of the material. Prunier's Africa's World War on the other hand is absolutely a necessary account, I don't mean to uncritically sing its praises and I'm sure there's entirely legitimate critiques to be made of the presentation and narrative. But I think as far as providing both the broader context of the genocide and the wars, as well as extensive detail for each phase, it is easily one of the best available in English. I really don't mean this as an "um akshully" corrective or anything like that. It's just a topic of a lot of interest to me and despite just having a layperson interest in these things I've read enough on this particular topic to feel it's worthwhile to comment, at the very least to draw attention to the fact that there are controversial aspects of the narrative that are actual legitimate concerns compared to the cretinous genocide apologists and revisionists.

Gordon Schmidt

I have to say that after reading Michela Wrong's latest book, the theory Mark cited about the RPF shooting down Habyarimana's plane is almost certainly true- apparently it was something of an open secret in RPF circles after the war. Moreover, the Igla MANPADS found at the scene had its serial numbers traced to a shipment bought by Uganda- a dead giveaway for RPF involvement. Sorry Tutsi fans, but we have actual conspirators in the RPF plot to bring down the plane testifying to their role in the plot and the fact that Kagame gave the orders. The only evidence for Hutu extremists shooting down the plane is circumstantial (specifically, this evidence is the fact that the Hutu were remarkably quick to carry out the genocide after the shootdown. It's good for circumstantial evidence, but nothing compared to the testimonials and physical evidence that the RPF shot it down). It's also worth noting that Kagame and most of the RPF were refugees-as you said, they fought for Museveni- so they had lived most of their lives in Uganda, and their families were safe from the genocide on the other side of the border. Beyond that, I think the "Tutsiphobia" the War Nerd identifies stems from Kagame and his regime. A lot of people like to give him a pass because they identify him with the victims of the genocide as a whole when in reality he just isn't. He's an extremely ruthless and petty person and has a notorious habit of offing his critics, oftentimes former allies. I think a good comparison would be to say that the Hutu are Nazis and Kagame is a Stalinist. His paranoia, thin skin, and penchant for killing old friends are a dead ringer for the great Soviet despot. It's almost uncanny. Hutu similarities to the Nazis meanwhile need no explanation.

JJ

The two of you don’t seem to remember how Rwandan genocide was a cause célèbre of western liberals in the late 1990s and the alleged inaction of the west in Rwanda was cited to support R2P. Any hostility to the Kagame government and to Tutsis from western liberals comes much later in the early 2010s as the Rwandan government became friendly with China.

Hugo Turner

It’s a shame Dolan continues to ignore all the evidence that doesn’t go along with his Kagame fanboy view of the conflict stubbornly clinging to 1990’s mainstream propaganda accounts that provided a completely one sided view of what happened and ignore the sinister role the U.S. played. (Ie Kagame was trained by the U.S. Military in Psychological Operations. He also had an Israeli handler the infamous David Kimche and Rwanda is very much the Israel of Africa. Years ago I begged you to bring on Keith Harmon Snow as a guest but now it’s too late as he passed away last December but for those interested in what actually happened check out this article (Search covert action Keith Harmon Snow if link doesn’t work) https://covertactionmagazine.com/2025/02/03/keith-harmon-snow-was-a-courageous-investigative-journalist-who-exposed-lies-regarding-the-rwandan-genocide/?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR1yXayXSIa5nW2q82b1As7ENIMjLp_A_sicFwIxmeXl3FPWAETT3UtU_-U_aem_-I_ES6w6EXuESbEqD_EyTg

Hugo Turner

A piece I wrote 11 years ago in response to the discredited notion that the Rwandan tragedy could have been avoided if only the US had gotten involved. And an attack on hollywood history as exemplified in Hotel Rwanda. (note Kagame actively persecuted the man the film was based on) Actually America was to blame not through inaction, but through action. Four years before the so called "100 days" current dictator of Rwanda Paul Kagame, was being trained by the US government in the arts of insurgency contra style ie death squad style if your to young to remember the contras and in propaganda. Prior to that he was a long time leiutenant to another long time US backed dictator in Uganda Paul Museveni who also was able to successfully overthrow the government of Uganda in the 1980's in the process inventing the child soldier. Kagame and other Tutsi expatriates (the Tutsis had formerly ruled the place for first the Germans and then after world war 1 the Belgians until independence) these former ruling elites had been waging a terror campaign against Rwanda for 20 years. In 1990 America decided to back the terrorists of the RPF the heroes of films like this one. Why? Resources, we wanted a piece of France's African sphere of influence. Far from uninvolved America provided massive assistance to the RPF. Films like these are one aspect of such support they create a completely false picture of what happened. Why is it that this is the only piece of African history Hollywood is interested other then the fall of apartheid. For an in depth look at this film in particular go to http://allthingspass.com/uploads/html-135Hotel%20Rwanda%20Corrected%20Final%201%20Nov%2007.htm Basically what really happened was a civil war brought on by the assassination of the presidents of Rwanda and Burundi by the RPF with technical assistance and the 4 prior years of atrocities committed by the RPF. These created the background for popular violence against the Tutsis. However things were much more complicated, then they are portrayed it was not just hutu vs tutsi. In fact some tutsis were even members of Hutu militias and since the RPF had been living in Uganda since 1959 they hated the Tutsis that stayed behind in Rwanda. It should be noted that the Ugandan Tutsis of the RPF killed Tutsis and Hutus and they didn't use machetes they used expensive weapons and had CIA advisers with them every step of the way. Most importantly they had the public relations muscle of the west on their side. Thus even when they slaughtered Hutus it was reported in the media that it the victims were Tutsis and of course the RPF role was never mentioned. We saw dead bodies and assumed they must be the Tutsis. So with American aid RPF won and far from stopping the genocide they actively engaged in it. After victory they mercilesslessly hunted the hutu refugees who fled to the congo where under the eyes of the UN and with the asssistance of US special forces they slaughtered 1.2 million refugees. But because of the genocide narrative nobody seemed to care. Hutus are all evil or so we were told so the international community covered it all up. Thus what separates this from just another ugly covert war is the that RPF and the Ugandans invaded the Congo where 15 years later they are still there killing 1500 people a day. People who had nothing to do with events in Rwanda. Under the disguise of various militias most famously M-23 they set out to seize control of eastern Congo. 10 million people have died and the truth is the RPF is an American proxy army like the Syrian rebels. In other words the RPF has killed ten times more people in the congo then died in the Rwandan civil war. The RPF have killed millions to insure that western mining interests people like Maurice Templesman the owner of Tiffany diamond company have unrestricted access to the Congo's riches. Ever wonder where the uranium for the bombs we dropped on Hiroshima came from or the copper for alll those billions of rounds of ammunition fired in places like Vietnam or Iraq or the cobalt necessary for our fighter planes, or say the rare earth mineral coltan in your smart phone it all comes from the Congo far from being on the fringes of the world Congo has long been central to the global economy, a land of untold riches but nobody in the Congo seems to benefit except of course those rich colonialists that never left and are never mentioned in our papers. You can see why violence, destabilization anarchy chaos are in u.s. and European stratetigic interest in Africa any sane government might ask why the majority of people in Congo are starving when they live atop gold and diamonds as well as such strategically useful minerals. It happened long ago a man called Patrice Lumbumba who remembers him today? in the new frontier of globalization chaos is perhaps the future (as seen in Iraq Somalia and Libya coming soon to Syria) and the problems of Africa don't arise out of tribal savagery but imperialism and greed. If you are interested in this topic I highly recommend the work of Keith Harmon Snow. His brilliant articles can be found at alllthingspass.com and consciousbeingalliance.com Or watch one of his lectures on you tube. In the article cited above he goes into the true story of hotel Rwanda. I've just scratched the surface your mind will be blown. And no America is hardly the only one to blame England, France, Belgium, Germany, Israel and even Canada are all involved in the plunder and masss murder of the Congo. As well as their rivals the Chinese. And of course local partners like Kagame and Museveni. And our own lack of curiosity or outrage as to why ten million people have been murdered. Investigate Africom and America's plans to vastly increase our military presence in Africa Ironically the first African American president is stepping up the recolonzation of Africa. If you've never heard any of this before investigate it for yourself the truth is slowly beginning to emerge, check out the friends of the Congo and voice of the Congo. Ignore big NGOs they are complicit.

JAHdot

Thank you, I was about to try to explain this. You did much better. I was just going to say, I may be responsible for the theory as I was telling ppl this around 2005 after I met an army Sgt who confided in me (in a way that I had zero doubt he wasnt lying). He explained there were false flag attacks (Muslim/Christian neighboring communities) they would light some fires and the next week one of the villages would retaliate full fledge against the other. I did a little research into imf and United nations also investing around the same time and their return on investment was only guaranteed if there was unrest and rebuilding. There was no "proof" but if it quacks like a duck... Take it for what it is, a conspiracy theory, but doesn't mean it's not true. And now that it seems to be suppressed, it seems the liberal elite found out it was the US and don't want anyone doing any more digging. 🤷🏽

Hugo Turner

It isn’t a theory I came up with but is the result of reading dozens of articles and several books on the topic. Most of all credit is due to the late great Keith Harmon Snow who worked for decades to expose the truth about what happened you can find numerous articles, interviews and lectures by him online. But you are right U.S. Special forces were embedded with the RPF who had been provoking massacres via night time terror attacks for decades. https://covertactionmagazine.com/2024/04/26/psyops-regarding-1994-rwanda-genocide-continues-with-30th-anniversary-commemoration/

Daniel Hoppes

I first heard of Kagame through the glorification of The New York Times' own Stephen Kinzer. Thought what a weird book and then moved on. Later with a general interest in the Congo, Rwanda's repeated and ongoing invasions, whatever justification, seemed remarkable, given the positive light in which Rwanda is usually placed. There's a brilliant novel called Congo Inc., by In Koli Jean Bofane, though I suppose I must warn John it is a Congolese novel, and one of the major characters is a Tutsi warlord, who I'm afraid is portrayed in a rather negative light. He daydreams of being an American so that he might napalm the rainforest, over which he has been humiliatingly made CEO, while his comrades in arms have been feted by the UN and Paul kagame has won the Clinton Foundation's prize for Initiative in Exports.