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Radio War Nerd EP #514 — The Original Fascismo, feat. Annibale (Patreon)

Published:
2025-04-10 14:27:00
Imported:
2025-04
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Guest: AnnibaleRecorded: April 7, 2025

With Trump back in power, it means the "F" word is back in vogue. We talk to friend of the show Annibale about Original Fascism in Italy, what it was in practice, the specific context that produced fascismo, and its leader Mussolini.

RWN has done several shows on various aspects of fascism and neo-fascism. Here is a partial list:-EP #131: The Italian Resistance Movement in WW2-EP #134: Post-War Italy: Introduction to Years of Lead (series)-EP #205: Recovered History of Neoliberalism & Fascism-EP #226: Italy on the Eastern Front, Pt. 1-EP #257: Italo-Turkish War of 1911-12-EP #348: Italian Elections, Giorgia Meloni & Neofascists-EP #385: Silvio Berlusconi from "Years of Lead" to Post-Fascism

*Anglo-American Establishment's love affair with Fascismo:

Total time: 1:51:41Direct link to this episode's mp3 here

*

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Sound production by Telescope Audio

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Comments

William

So tired of this. Annibale acts like he fucking grew up in Italy and knows everything about it

Terry Dunk

Ehhhhh let's-a fuh keeng goOOoAh !!

Sam Zeng

Annibale = GOAT

PostmasterFenian

Damn this is a big time snub to friend of the show Danny bessner

steppingstone

how so? (i know one isn't supposed to ask a genuine question in the comment sections, but here i go.)

Jackm

Snub? Annibale is Annibale.

Soda enthusiast

"Italy: soon after his inauguration in 1932, fdr was confiding to a friend that ‘I am keeping in fairly close touch with that admirable Italian gentleman’. Asked five years later by his Ambassador in Rome if ‘he had anything against dictatorships’, he replied ‘of course not, unless they moved across their frontiers and sought to make trouble in other countries’. Spain: within a month of Franco’s uprising, he had imposed an unprecedented embargo on arms to the Republic—‘a gesture we Nationalists shall never forget’, declared the Generalísimo: ‘President Roosevelt behaved like a true gentleman’. France: he felt an ‘old and deep affection’ for Pétain, with whose regime in Vichy the us maintained diplomatic relations down to 1944, and matching detestation of De Gaulle—a ‘prima donna’, ‘jackanapes’ and ‘fanatic’.

Leo Silverstein

will this have annibale's most "eetlers" yet?

Vic Lineal

Good to have Annibale back to talk about this; non vedo l'ora di ascoltarlo attentamente stasera. By the way, and although not directly related, your mention in the introduction of Snyder & co. finding refuge in "the Ukraine of North America" (or, as the hip kids call it online, Banderastan) reminded me of something I thought of when I listened to your episode with Dan. I've been reading Michael Carley's three volume recounting of diplomatic relations between the USSR and other European powers from ca. 1929 to 1941, detailing the attempts by the NKID of the USSR and especially Litvinov to arrange a coalition against Nazism on the basis of collective security and their complete failure. He's published two volumes so far, "Stalin's gamble" (ca. 1930-1936) and "Stalin's failed alliance" (1936-1939), which build on his previous work, including "1939: the alliance that never was", and it is to be followed by a third volume focused on German-Soviet relations from Molotov-Ribbentrop to Barbarossa. Having been somewhat exposed to Soviet and post-Soviet literature on the subject (although very limited by the language barrier), his work seems to square very well with that historiography, but of course it is in complete contradiction with the standard pop history version we're exposed to in EU and Anglo countries in which the USSR was an expansionist ally of Nazi Germany while, on the other hand, any compromises France or the UK made with the Nazis (including selling out the Czechoslovaks without giving them a say) were necessary steps from principled enemies of Nazism who needed time to prepare to fight Germany, which is something that (apart from a handful of appeasers) they always wanted to do. Given how that period is being used and abused in current propaganda against Russia (peace in Ukraine would be a new Munich Agreements, the Russians were Nazi allies, double genocide of the Snyder flavour, etc.), perhaps it would be interesting to have a show on the topic? As a bonus Carley had a petition circulated against him around April 2022 asking for his suspension or dismissal from the University of Montréal for his "pro-Putin" positions and "Kremlin propaganda" on his private social media, which seems to have utterly failed simply because the University didn't entertain it. Out of curiosity I looked up some interviews and op eds by him and while I found some slightly spicy opinions, I didn't get any major red flags from it, although lacking any other context I might be wrong. Sorry for the long text and thanks as always for your work, looking forward to listening to this later today.

Jason Thompson

Re: the lack of people visiting the US, it’s unsurprising, but Republicans (at least on Twitter) literally do not care. Tourists, immigrants, students: fuck ‘em all. Pure belligerence

PostmasterFenian

It's not a snub its just a thing Danny bessner writes about a lot

Yairo Martis

Wheatler (Scuzzi Annibale 😅)

CR

This would be good to pair with the Neoliberalismo episode

CR

It is annoying with more awareness than I had during Bush to see people pull out the Corporatismo quote, because that was something wholly separate. Contemporary corporatism is just neoliberalism or neoliberal techno feudalism

.

🤌

CR

This was really helpful. I support your request.

CR

Next thing you know, the boys are going to talk about the Bay Area like they grew up there.

a clash of purple

Friends of RWN The Empire Never Ended podcast did quite a few episodes breaking down the love affair between the Western capitalist ruling classes and various kinds of fascism. Their takeaway is that Western nationalism and white supremacy, particularly Americanism, predate fascism and, if anything, the Europeans copied from us. (Honestly the Italian fascists were nicer and less racist in some ways than, say, the Klan, or demon capitalists like Henry Ford.) Guys like Henry Ford basically said that fascism is great for the Italians, who are shiftless and dumb and need a firm hand to whip them into shape, but that the American system (as they envisioned it, a purely white supremacist anti-communist authoritarian corporatist ideology) was better for the United States.

John Waaben

Fantastic ep. I hope there’s an episode in the future that examines how the racial laws of America influenced Nazism as well. Stuff like the California Indian Indenture Act of 1850 gives horrifying prescience to Nazi actions on the Eastern Front of WW2. Thanks again Annibale for answering my stupid question about whether Waffen SS soldiers were nerds or jocks a year and a half ago.

Leo Silverstein

i love the way he pronounces the second b in "bombed"

zo

One of my favorite/most hard hitting Annibale episodes was after January 6th when he asks what does it mean to be a fascist and circling this question. Sono contenta che sia tornato

William

The political economy of how the ill douche was able to make the 20s and 30s (generally speaking) comfortable for Italians interests me. Economics isn’t necessarily a zero sum game but if one person’s living high on the hog, someone else ain’t. Trueanon’s il popo series has got me thinking about Italy and Somalia and I wonder if the colonial exploitation helped fuel some of these “good times”

William

Or if they were borrowing from their future, I guess

Soda enthusiast

The Sardinian socialist Emilio Lussu wrote a famous memoir of the event: ‘He had taken up his seat at the back, on the extreme right; high up and separated from the rest of his deputies, he seemed like a vulture, crouching upon a rock. “I must declare at once,” he began, “that my speech will be reactionary in character. It will be reactionary because I am anti-Parliamentarian, anti-Democratic and anti-Socialist.” ’ What was the gist of this reaction? A return to simple-minded Manchesterism. It was time to ‘deprive the State of all the functions which render it dropsical and vulnerable,’ he asserted. ‘Let the State provide a police-force to protect decent people against villains, properly organised courts, an army ready for anything, and a foreign policy in tune with real national needs. Everything else – even the secondary school system – ought to be left to private enterprise. To save the State, we must first abolish the collectivist state.’

.

Trump seems to be a more a berlusconi figure for America.

Annibale

He loves to style himself as the American Berlusconi. Still, he's not, and Berlusconi disliked him quite vocally (and Berlusconi's daughter Marina, the current Fininvest president, made clear she doesn't like to see his father compared to him). The truth is that Berlusconi, particularly in the last 15 years, was a moderate centrist figure, not a far-right authoritarian. He did ally with the far right, but it was just a marriage of necessity.

Annibale

Also, the two characters could not have been more distant. Berlusconi could sometimes be quite open about his dislikes, but he tended to choose carefully his enemies and was very popular with his strict collaborators. And he was a careful planner (outside his private life, of course). In fact, he accused Trump of being "too rash in decision-making". Also, Berlusconi was an old-style pro-market tycoon, and he would have been horrified on seeing someone devastating the markets in the way Trump did.

.

Thanks so much for responding Annibale! Do you think both leaders were/are dealing with different conditions? One being the head of the empire compared to Berlusconi being in charge of Italy? The U.S./Trump dealing with an empire in decline as the unipolar power and these tariffs and bullying seem to be a last ditch effort to regain total control from China and other governments who are rising and influencing the world with their manufacturing/market influence. I think the similarities between the two are what they will do/say to gain and maintain power aesthetically to appeal to certain people. Which means more to US citizens than actually policy at this point. That was where my comparison came from between the two. They definitely both pull from the far right to consolidate power. Bannon and others and their Julius evola influences which is appealing to a lot of people in the U.S. as things are breaking down here with no real left alternative allowed. Hope this made sense in response to you. Really appreciate your perspective.

a clash of purple

I feel like a big part of the difference between Berlusconi and Trump (though far from the only one) is that Italy is only a satellite of the empire, while the United States is the center. From what you've said during your appearances on RWN, Annibale, it sounds to me as if appeasing the United States and playing along with the imperial agenda is crucial for any Italian leader. The same goes for many countries in America's orbit; their politics are strictly circumscribed by Washington. But the U.S. ruling class, obviously, doesn't have that limitation. It means they can be much more reckless and mercurial than their vassal states. Even if they wanted to, I doubt the leadership of Italy, or France, or Britain, or Germany, etc., would be allowed to rock the boat the way Trump has without dire repurcussions. Though it seems like a few players, like the Saudis, the Turks, and the Israelis, might enjoy that privilege.

a clash of purple

I don't know about that. Italian fascism was deeply Catholic in the way that they conceived of the state as a transcendent body composed of its citizens, but the end result is still the erasure of the distinction between "private corporation" and "public government." The Nazi and Mussolini regimes could absolutely be described as neoliberal techo-feudalisms, where corporations like Fiat and IG Farben wielded massive power and influence as integral parts of the state. Just about every decision Hitler and Mussolini made was informed or even dictated by powerful industrialists. It's one important way where modern Russia seems to differ; they have big businessmen and large corporations, but the state is absolutely in charge. The so-called oligarchs are there to serve the state, and if they become a problem then they are dispossessed and exiled (or killed). I suppose America will end up in a similar place, once the Republicans implement their Yeltsin-esque agenda in this country. After the country has enjoyed a few years of being Russia in the 90's, we'll empower our own Putin (probably from the ranks of the military, the strongest and most trusted institution in the U.S.) to rein the corporations in and create some kind of stability (probably a brutal, authoritarian regime, but still preferable to outright thieves like Trump and Musk).

a clash of purple

I don't know how much the typical Republican interacts with foreign visitors anyway, beyond maybe migrants working at fast food places or landscapers. I would imagine foreigners are mostly found in the cities and on college campuses, and Republicans have mostly exiled themselves from places like that.

.

What I was trying to get at with my post but didn’t say it as explicitly. Those three states you stated have more autonomy because they are more essential to the empire to have more wiggle room because of oil and destabilizing the Middle East for that resource that makes the current world move, especially israel. I listened to the new ghost stories episode on menwith hill and it was a more clear focus of what being a vassal state was for the US empire.

Chalky Default

High five to whoever got Annibale a microphone

Paul Lemaire

It also probably matters that Berlusconi emerged as a political figure in the 1990s when right wing populism was not quite where it is now and the blueprint was more neoliberal Raeganomics/Thatcher which needed to be in tune with some kind of consensus even as these conservatives antagonized the left (whereas Trumpians want to disrupt the consensus on their own terms). Perhaps one similarity though is the persecution complex vis a vis the judiciary and willingness to push the envelope on that front. I don’t see a clear cut distinction. Berlusconi can be a prude all he wants, it's indeed very liberal of him to evade responsibility for having laid tbe groundwork for who runs Italy now. Just like the policies of Bush/Cheney and other anti-Trump neocons of the so-called Resistance were fore-runners of Trump’s undermining of civil liberties. These categories are fluid. Berlusconi and Mussolini would’ve likely been on team Trump had they been Americans of that generation. Same mindset, different context.

Christian Alfredsson

I'm sorry, Annibale is almost almost totally incoherent here. It's very hard to parse any meaning in this interview. If you are not already somewhat aquainted with the fascist ideology it's impossible. It's tidbits of local culture, analasys, history, names, religion, anecdotes and stories. I get totally lost several times in a jumble of sidelines, parentheses and analogy.

a clash of purple

I don't know what you're talking about. It's a pretty straightforward discussion of Mussolini, the pre-war phase of Italian fascism, and how that story has very little to do with the supposed fascism of Donald Trump and Elon Musk. If you want more detail, a lot of these points were actually already covered more in-depth by Annibale in previous episodes (just follow the links in the show description). The focus here was explaining enough about Mussolini to show that the current moment in America is not like the rise of fascism in Italy.

William

Feels like so much of this “fascism” discourse in the US is dipshit libs using it as shorthand for “evil” and trying to flood the neuron pathways in everyone’s brains that are wired for recognizing and retrieving info about the dang “nazzies”.

William

It’s increasingly frustrating when libs can’t reconcile that Trump didn’t need to create a reichstag fire to assume complete control, all he had to do was pick up the tools that were already there and show that all the “controls” / checks & balances have all the stopping power that road markings do, for preventing a car from drifting the wrong way over the centerline. Like, “he’s bringing fascism to the US!!1!” How, by using the laws already in place for whatever he wants, and selectively enforcing the rest? You cunts left this shit lying around with a paper sign over it saying, “don’t use for bad unless tastefully done bad things” and he just flat ignored your hall monitor ass

a clash of purple

I completely agree with you. That being said, real actual Nazis with swastikas and such *do* really love Trump... The way I would put it is, Americanism is as bad as fascism, and predates fascism, and inspired fascism, and while Trump isn't a fascist, he's certainly an Americanist. But all he's doing is championing a political tendency that's always been here, and is in fact part of mainstream discourse in this country. The Republican party and most of their voters (and much of the Democratic party leadership) might or might not reject the labal of "fascist," but whatever you call it, their violent anti-communist, ultranationalist, authoritarian, white supremacist, hyperconservative, misogynist, corporatist, militarist ideology is just as bad.

Tom Warner

would love to hear an ep on the Abyssinian War(s) if there isn't one already

CR

They would have to reckon with being culpable when they supported Bush and Obama continuing the unitary executive and so on. They abhor responsibility.

JoR

I'm glad I'm not the only one lol. I know that'll be taken as negative (it's not meant to be), but overall the Annibale episodes can sometimes take multiple listens to follow along, and even then it's still a bit much.

Michael Salmon

I always got the impression that originally fascismo was this futurist quasi-socialist militant movement a la sorel that eventually just kinda turned into a giant fraud that didn’t really stand for much of anything, or at the very least would just turn on a dime from believing in one thing to all of a sudden believing in something totally contradictory

Rod Miller

Also, Berlusconi was ejected from office in a coup fomented by the European Bank for not adhering to the lean'n'mean strictures of laissez-faire ideology. If only Trump were "guilty" of that.

Rod Miller

Does anyone know a good account of the kidnapping and murder of Aldo Moro in English, French or German? (I know there are some good ones in Italian, but my Italian just ain't good enough.)

Trazdat

I get your contempt for Snyder and his buddy, but wasn’t your takeaway from the ends of syria and other civil conflicts that getting out early consistently led to the best outcomes?

a clash of purple

Fundamentally, it's nationalism, anti-communism, militarism, corporatism right? I think Matt Christman quoted some guy once who defined fascism as "the suppression of the left amid popular support" or something like that. Some stuff like autarky, social welfare, and racism can be plugged in and out as suits the moment, but the core ideals remain consistent. Basically any mass political movement created and funded by the bourgeoisie in order to maintain class hierarchy in the face of leftist agitation will end up as part of the fascist milieu. Right-wing libertarianism and Republicans in the U.S., for example, are certainly on the fascist spectrum.

a clash of purple

Hitler and the eugenicists who informed Nazi racial politics were explicitly inspired by America's racist policies. They felt they were grounded in science and law. Hitler went so far as to say that Russia was Germany's version of the Wild West, and the Slavs were the "savage natives" who had to be exterminated or enslaved so that Germany could achieve its own manifest destiny. One of the things that most bugs me about the way the Nazis are remembered is that, while we all talk about their hatred for Jews and many other groups, their violent hatred and fear of Slavs is deliberately ignored. Mainly because that's a racism that is still acceptable and encouraged in the Angloid world today, I think.

Mack Beveridge

Probably the difference here is just how much more violent the Syria situation is. I think the U.S. is unlikely to have a civil war.

drizzly_november

I like American Prestige a lot, but Bessner’s been so invested in the polemics of the “fascism debate” it’s really exhausting to hear him talk about it anymore. And this great conversation jibes pretty well with Bessner’s main argument: that fascism was born out of mass politics and the collective trauma of WWI.

John Waaben

This plus 18th century Prussians comparing neighboring Poles to the Iroquois in terms of their “German” right to conquest and have an empire.

Hector Jaime

I really liked this episode. I think the misuse of the word “fascism” on the left is very similar to the misuse of “anti-semitism” and “terrorism” on the right.

Hector Jaime

Also worth mentioning that Benito Juarez was Mexico’s first 100% indigenous president and the first indigenous, democratically-elected president in the Americas.

Quinn

funny i was just reading the tolkien letters talking about his hatred of airplanes lol

Townes

i found a copy of “the moro affair” in my partners parents second apartment last summer. i didnt read it but their dad is generally a pretty solid guy so maybe take it as a second hand endorsement?

Terry Dunk

far less cynical and much more hysterical, even if not any more accurate

Terry Dunk

Trump is not like Mussolini or Hitler and whatever the true nature of this monstrous regime it will inevitably have some resonances and many more discontinuities with any 20th century analogue. This is basically a truism, so I've always found efforts to match up present-day politics with interwar fascism very wrongheaded. Still, one thing I think Mark underrates in emphasizing that 'oh, it got bad but it took a while and it was a slow descent to the level of mass political violence' is that things in this country have been slowly deteriorating for decades now and at an ever-increasing rate. Add to that the total lack of an organized left or labor movement to countermand the quasi-fascist forces arrayed loosely behind Trump, and it's not at all inconceivable that things could turn very ugly very soon in the US.

CR

The episode they did with Annibale

CR

Christman also referred to someone else calling it when the tools of colonialism are turned inward. That Italy and Germany barely had colonial empires is immaterial

Tara Shumer-Decker

Now I know why Tolkien didn't have the eagles fly Frodo and Sam to Mordor straight away. Learn something new every day.

Annibale

An old friend once remarked, "There are many, many unmarked graves around the world filled with the bodies of people who did ask that question about Tolkien and the Eagles...." :) :) :) :)

Jeremy

I love how hard it is for liberals like annibale or mark to understand that the better system might kill capitalists to preserve the better system.

ezra

what

Jeremy

What