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Radio War Nerd EP #517 — Trump's Trade War, feat. Jeff Stein (Patreon)

Published:
2025-04-26 00:28:06
Imported:
2025-04
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Guest: Jeff Stein, Washington PostRecorded: April 24, 2025

We talk to Jeff Stein about Trump's trade war on the world, and America's decades-long economic wars on much of the world...

Check out RWN EP #446 - John Brown's Insurgency, feat Jeff SteinRead Jeff's articles at the WaPo. Follow Jeff on Twitter. Check out Jeff Stein's podcast American Carnage.

Non-Alignment Pact by Pere Ubu

Total time: 1:12:59Direct link to this episode's mp3 here

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Subscribe to Radio War Nerd at patreon.com/radiowarnerd

Sound production by Telescope Audio

Check out the Radio War Nerd Merch store here!

Order your print or ebook of John Dolan's new book Erdogan Pizza: Dispatches from a Violent & Grotesque World

Files

Comments

NYCM&AHole

Well I saw carcass with cannibal corpse. They closed with HAMMER SMASHED FACE and I went Jim Carey mode a la Ace Ventura

the oob

John: you want something called "Anthisan" for your mosquito bites, the active ingredient is mepyramine maleate, I'm in New Zealand so no idea if you can find it wherever you are. It's what my skin specialist wife buys for us. Picture here: https://photos.app.goo.gl/QJoSVBRHokU3U1ZD7

Horseloverfat

First track I ever heard was “Breath”. Thought it was just a pop song at first but by the end it gave me the inkling that I had to go deeper.

Logan

Dave Thomas is incorrect to say there are no elections in China. There are elections in China which have very high rates of voter participation.

William

I’ve heard supply chains are two weeks out from feeling the tariff shock- lot of dipshits about to learn how their beloved “supply and demand” works

William

Jeff stein is the one who said that and he works for the Washington Post. What do you expect lol

William

Trying to “mad dog” the country whose leader once proclaimed, “China can survive a nuclear strike”. I personally think most of trump’s strategy is to pretend he has deep plans as a cover for the absolute stupid shit he impulsively goes with

Elsie Hupp

My recommendation regarding severe allergies is this: see an allergist. I’ve been getting allergy immunotherapy for a year and a half, and it’s been working great. Your allergist may or may not recommend the same sort of treatment, but it’s useful to get professional medical advice, specifically in allergy and immunology.

a clash of purple

About Chinese labor practices, I really don't think any political leaders anywhere in the world today care a lot about the plight of laborers. And, frankly, American *citizens* might get a better deal than Chinese workers, but it's been a long-term project of the U.S. ruling class to institute slave labor in all but name here in the form of hyper-exploited migrants, refugees, and victims of human trafficking. Not to let the Chinese off the hook, but the idea that America is some champion of workers' rights is hypocritical propaganda BS. And to pull the camera back, in a globalized economy, *everyone* profits off of whoever's being exploited the most. Some countries export suffering onto others in order to mollify restive citizens, and other countries import suffering onto their least liked populations for a profit. Unless and until the workers of the world unite, and stand in solidarity across all lines of color, creed, ethnicity, and nation-state, this rent-seeking bullshit will continue. (Which is to say, the rent-seeking bullshit will continue unabated, just like every other horrible institution, until we finally kill ourselves, because it is impossible to build the necessary amount of solidarity to do anything about it.)

Tyler Berglund

“People in China can’t afford imports because of how devalued the renminbi is” Despite China being the worlds biggest exporter, Chinas economic growth is more feuled by domestic consumption and investment not exports. The Chinese don’t want or need imports (unless we are talking about low value goods like soy beans from the US). Like many mainstream US economists, this guy doesn’t understand Chinas economy. If he did, he wouldn’t have said that alongside the “horrible labour practices” mantra (meanwhile China has reduced more poverty internally than the whole world combined). Also, blaming China for US deindustrialization because of their devalued currency or labour practices is also a canard. As Mark pointed out regarding his appearances on Dylan Ratigans (once great) show, its Wall Street thats to blame. The US economy financialized decades ago, which is predatory by nature and stifles production, innovation and job growth. Same thing is happening in Canada and all over the west. Still, interesting episode.

William

John, the Trump elites want to bring back manufacturing because they’re stupid. We can’t have a completely unnecessary war with china if they make everything for us. Plus, figuring out new things to manufacture in the rust belt and using federal investment to make it happen would be gay communism

William

JFC, the economic system in the US ISN’T SUPPOSED TO WORK FOR THE MASSES. Its sole purpose is to enrich a small elite. Oh, does that lead to short term decisions that gets you more golden eggs now, but kills the goose faster? Damn, almost as if capitalism contains the seeds of its own destruction.

Austin Mettler

Would love to hear an episode with Greg Grandin to discuss his new book

Inmybirkin

His point about the uaw is hilarious

Inmybirkin

One of these countries spearheads a global system currently facilitating a genocide. American labor has done next to nothing about this but won’t somebody think about how Chinese labor practices represent a danger to American workers hahaha

Logan

Excruciating

Tom Warner

To attempt to answer John's (very good!) questions about "why do Trump admin/elites want to bring toy factories back to Waukegan?": - I think they're a lot more scared than they let on over Ukraine: specifically seeing Russia's ability to outproduce US/EU weapons (like shells) domestically. - Similarly, they're scared of China, and belatedly realizing that the Chinese economy benefits from long-term, centrally planned decisions to favor certain critical industries, and they want to imitate that (without ever using the C-word obviously). - Culturally, manufacturing-type jobs build a solid middle-class base of people who are stable, orderly, not overly educated, not "woke", etc--not saying this is true (or otherwise), but it's how they see it. - Finally, greed. A substantial minority of the American capitalist class seems to think that it might be more profitable to go into partnership with the US security state, and gain subsidies/protection in the market here, rather than compete globally. A very non-exhaustive list of examples includes SpaceX, Palantir, Anduril etc...

Quinn Tucker

I think the critical thing missing from your analyses in this episode is that this strategy is being driven in large part by people who don't just want to wreck china, they want to cut off the fatty edges of the empire in order to focus on building some kind of fascist autarky, no matter the pain it causes in the short term. That is the only way the empire survives the coming century that they see, shutting our borders to the world and focusing inward to make the country as white (or at least white dominated) and christian and obedient as possible. They are drooling for an excuse for the insurection act, and if that happens the whole game might be over depending on how succesful their purges of the military and government have been so far. We have to face the reality that a significant part of trumps admin is licking their chops for these policies to trigger an utter collapse of the economy and status quo so they can rebuild the state as they like. I dont know if there is enough of the cabinet and people that matter to force trump down that path. But for God's sake, we're shipping people to concentration camps. So many on our side have already been jailed or deported. The democrats outright support some of the most evil acts of this administration so far. I think that a lot of us thought a point like this would come relatively soon, another enormous crisis for capitalism that will trigger another rise in fascism and horrific crisis across the world as the planet boils, the 1920's with nukes. However,I thought we'd have a little more time

Quinn Tucker

Not to say this is certain to be the beginning of the end, who knows, but a whole lot of people sure want it to be, and who the fuck is there to stop them?

Jeremy

You’re both way smarter than that to accept an Econ nerds opinion about China, who’s paid to have that opinion against China.

Jeremy

And also highly disappointing to hear you both ham it up with an agent of capital like that

etienne

this nerd had to explain to John what the exorbitant privilege is, you're not gonna tell me that the entire room is too smart to refute that china has labor standards below the US. calm down

Jeremy

Your only evidence of that is listening to what your shithole country has to say about a country with better living standards. Maybe it’s some deep seated frustration knowing this fact that keeps you inside your bubble. Or perhaps your brain really hasn’t developed beyond high school level Fox News analysis

etienne

the magas say they want to bring back the factories because it makes people vote for them

etienne

have you guys ever heard of politicians lying?

etienne

if you talk to Agents of Capital they might fry your brain with their special money ray. Beware!

Dongo

John, for whatever punk means or says, I don’t think it’s a very exclusive club. You’re punk as fuck, and don’t let anyone tell you otherwise .

PostmasterFenian

Yeah idk I think marks hatred of centrist democrats -which is warranted- makes him say stupid shit about trump regularly. At the end of the day trump views trade deficits as the other country "ripping the us off" which is pretty objectively stupid and divorced from reality. I think it's safe to use the r word on Donald idk why mark thinks he's anything but an imbecile

Jeremy

How many tankies are in the room with us now, etienne? I would increase the dosage of whatever you’re currently taking. You can ignore reality if you want, doesn’t mean the rest of us are going to follow you down the path of madness. I hope you find what you’re looking for in the world 👍🏻

Google Hushabye Vally

If you're willing to argue with someone to prove that they're wrong, it would benefit you spend your words debunking rather than insulting.

ploob

Doin the Kamala

Benj

Quick question: if you’re a small country that wants to stabilize your currency, you buy dollars. With what?

Tom Warner

Exports, labor, your own currency or natural resources if either are valuable enough, or through complicated arrangements of obligation with capital institutions like the IMF

a clash of purple

Wow, lots of China stans in the comments... Guys, just because the anti-Chinese propaganda has nasty ulterior motives doesn't mean it's not true. The PRC isn't some workers' paradise, and the CCP is gross and corrupt. Just because they're opposed to the empire (through no fault of their own; they were very happy to be America's biggest business partners for decades), doesn't mean they're champions of the poor and downtrodden or something. Yes, the PRC has achieved some impressive things in turns of poverty reduction and improving their infrastructure. That's why the people of China tolerate their greed, corruption, and authoritarian BS. But they are paranoid in quashing any possibility of organized dissent, including labor unions and even harmless things like pride parades. And their facade of democracy is a sham (the fact that other countries' democracies are also a sham doesn't absolve them of guilt). They look good right now compared to the U.S. and its regime, but they don't deserve much credit for that. That can all be true at the same time as the Anglo-led empire being awful. There don't have to be goodguys in this story. You don't have to be on any of these competing nation-states' sides. They're all bad. Even if they aren't equally bad, none of them is worth rooting for. The only reason to trumpet the cause of China is just to outrage American nationalists. Which, okay, is a pretty good reason. But still. Anyway, just remember the most important lesson about China: we must not *overdemonize* them. That might be dangerous. Always demonize in moderation, folks.

a clash of purple

Some of the guys in Trump's inner circle are very serious about their stupid ideas for revitalizing American manufacturing. I think Trump 1.0 was much less committed in actually doing anything about domestic manufacturing. Here in Trump 2.0, the guys crafting his economic policy are really committed to their dumb theory that tariffs will make factories in the U.S. reopen. That's why they're willing to tank the stock market and make everyone yell at them to do it. Trump is obviously not especially invested in their ideas, so when people yell at him he pulls back. That's why you see this back-and-forth in his policies; which, ironically, is the real reason why the whole tariff plan will fail. If businesses were sure that, whatever the new economic regime is, it's going to be consistent and it's going to remain in place for a long time, then they'd adapt, which might actually involve adjusting their supply chains to do some manufacturing in the U.S. again. But when it's so obvious that all of this stuff is in the air and likely to completely change even before the end of Trump's term, let alone what the guy who comes after him will do, then their strategy is going to be to bunker down, continue lobbying whoever's in charge, and weather the storm until it becomes clear what the new status quo will actually look like.

a clash of purple

Everyone living under the capitalist regime is an "agent of capital," Jeremy. That includes Dolan and Ames, their listeners (like you and me), everyone in the U.S., and everyone in China too. Not everyone in the world is a capitalist subject, but almost everyone is. That's just one of the realities imposed by capitalism. It internalizes everything into itself, including attempts to resist it. If you truly want to get away from it, you're going to have to get off the internet, first and foremost, and you're probably going to have to make a lot of other changes in your life too. Stop using money. Don't interact with the local bureaucracy. Make your own food. Build your own shelter. Etc., etc.. In Stein's case, yes, he works for the Washington Post, which is owned by a billionaire and often acts as a mouthpiece for the U.S. regime. Nobody's hiding that fact. They introduced him as working for the WaPo. That doesn't mean he only spouts pro-American propaganda. It also doesn't mean the pro-American propaganda isn't true. That's why consuming news isn't easy. Even people with the best intentions aren't always right, and even people with the worst intentions aren't always wrong. You have to be skeptical without being totally close-minded.

a clash of purple

If, as the ruling class, you collapse the economy and status quo, then by definition you don't get to be the ones to build the new status quo. A new status quo implies that different people get to be in charge. If the same people are in charge, then the status quo hasn't in fact changed all that much. Also, calm down, buddy. For one thing, I don't know who you're counting as "our side." There is no "our side," last I checked. If there was, we'd have some ability to actually push back against these policies. All there is is a bunch of people complaining (and, in some cases, suffering brutal repression for it). But there's not even a hint of any organized action to resist the empire's actions beyond non-violent protests. Which isn't nothing, but it isn't really anything either.

a clash of purple

I think you're forgetting the most important answer: "They're really, fantastically, dangerously stupid." Like, to achieve any of the goals you list here would require a lot more than tariffs. I don't know if tariffs would even help accomplish any of these things. Ames is way too naive to ever think that Trump and his whole crew (and the Democrats and the rest of the American ruling class) are anything other than colossal idiots who combine a total lack of understanding about even the most basic facts of reality with a blinding overconfidence and utter faith in their various dumbass right-wing ideologies.

a clash of purple

I thought the deal struck between the U.S. and China was our businesses move all their factories to China in order to make more stuff for less, wages in China go up (but are still relatively low compared to what American workers demand), Americans get their greedy mouths stuffed full of cheap consumer goods to muffle their complaints about losing their good union jobs, profits of American companies go up, China gets a bunch of foreign investment, and the Chinese are also able to get their hands on American machinery and engineers in order to modernize. And, from a national security perspective, binding our economies together reduces tension, allows for more diplomacy and cultural exchange, and generally makes the world a safer, more stable place. And then, even though it's a great deal for everyone involved, once the guys who struck this deal got too old and retired, their dumbass nepotism-case kids got it in their heads that it's a bad deal because China gets something out of it too, so they dedicated their lives to undoing it. And now they might actually undo it, and it's really going to suck for everyone.

etienne

this comment section is completely degenerate, I'm embarassed to be here sometines

William

I mean, that’s basically what OP was alluding to. Just as a point of order, eradicating poverty and exploitative work policies are not mutually exclusive. China isn’t as bad as everyone thinks, but it’s also not as good. OP China used to buy semiconductors and chips, but most of what china imports from the u s is bulk commodities like soybeans and entertainment

William

Okay, I hear ya, but I got this giant “US #1” foam finger on sale

Tom Warner

no big disagreement but i still think it's of benefit to try and understand their goals and the methods they expect to achieve them with

etienne

great! so how did the lobotomy go?

a clash of purple

Well, me personally, I'm not a nationalist, so I think all countries and national divides are bad. Some are worse than others, but they're all bad. They're certainly all gross and corrupt. I just didn't like the way a lot of people in the comments section were turning up their noses at Stein because he said some negative things about China and he works for the WaPo. I don't know what his ideology is, but the stuff people are saying reeks of stupid leftist "holier-than-thou" ideological purity signaling. Even if he is a slavish servant of the American empire, and he's totally evil, and whatever else you might think about him, that doesn't automatically make him *wrong,* or mean that he's not worth listening to. If he says something that's not correct, then call him out and provide evidence to debunk his claims, or at least make an argument beyond "He gets paid by Jeff Bezos!!" Personally, I would rather live under the U.S. regime than China's. Given my class position, my whiteness, etc., I enjoy more civil liberties and freedoms than I would in the PRC. From my personal, individual perspective, America gives me a better deal. But at the same time, I agree that the PRC government is overall more stable, sane, and healthy than America's, for all the reasons you give. There's injustice in both systems. I think the injustice is worse in the United States than in China, but it's still pretty bad in China. From a moral perspective, they're both evil, and I think humanity should aspire to something better than either system. Basically, I hate both sides and I don't support either nation-state. That's my take on the issue.

Jonathan Penn

On the economic issues, it seems to me that one underestimates Trump's venality at the peril of all predictions. The only thing Trump cares about is money, particularly and only money in his pocket. The thing to truly fear is his moves and Congress' to support cybercurrency and arrange to have cybercurrencies backed by "the full faith and credit." This is a pyramid scheme that will equal or exceed the mortgage backed securities that nearly took down the global economy in 2008. And Trump will make billions from meaningless assets, further advancing the financial gimmcrackery that is the US economy.

Jonathan Penn

With respect to mosquito bites, I recall an article in "Scientific American" several years ago that explained why hot water works to relieve the itch. If I recall correctly, the mast cells that produce histamine, which in turn results in the itch and swelling, increase the production of histamine as they heat up. They do have a limit, however, so you can essentially exhaust their production for several hours with intense heat, as in a very hot shower. Not a bad treatment if you have access to a really hot shower.

Quinn Tucker

Are you under the impression that the ruling class of nazi germany was fundamentally different than the ruling class of weimar germany? Fascist italy?

Quinn Tucker

Fasciscm has a fundamentally middle class core that sometimes pretends to replace the current ruling class with a new regime of proven psychos, but that has never actually happened, because it cant. The entire point is class collaboration. And yeah its fine you dont consider yourself on the right side of things, its much safer not to be. It's another thing to pretend that because you are not involved that there is no right side.

Lo Pan

great guest

Jason Thompson

Yeah. Yasha Levine wrote something similar recently. China isnt as warmongering as the USA but they aren’t a model to follow.

a clash of purple

If you're so sure about that, why aren't you buying crypto? As long as you make sure you're not left holding the bag once everyone sells, you could make money too.

a clash of purple

Well, there's a "right side" in the sense that there is a morally correct view of what's going on and what should be done about it. My point was, in the United States there is currently no organized movement towards anything good that exists for anyone to be a part of or for anyone to suppress. There's individuals doing the right thing and getting screwed over for it, but that's not quite the same. Was the ruling class of Nazi Germany *fundamentally* different from the Weimar Republic? I donno. I think there's definitely people who had no trouble fitting in with both regimes, but at the same time there were also definitely people who had a place in one regime and not the other. I feel like that's a question I wish I could pass on to Annibale, especially in regards to fascist Italy. Especially considering that the first fascist regime and the one formed as the Nazi puppet state, the Repubblica Sociale Italiana, were quite different entities, despite Mussolini (theoretically) ruling both of them. I guess the first Italian fascist regime vs. the RSI is the comparison I would point to. They're both fascist, but their ideology and the power structure were quite different. When everything fell apart under Mussolini, he didn't get to be the one to build the new order, because the basis of his power was the old order. Not that ruling classes never foment chaos and instability in their own regimes, but doing so is usually a really bad idea for them. It's basically digging out the ground from under your own feet.

DaveBoy

When the poster with a Misato drinking beer avatar is the voice of reason, you know shit is bad

Peter Z

How long has Mark and John known each other? Love it. A best buddy story for the ages with plenty of Lewbowski calls. And let's not forget Dunning Kruger was formulated in 1999, and Lebowski with "out of your element" was in 1998!

Jonathan Penn

A piece of financial advice I received years ago keeps me from investing in crypto. "Yes, someone does win the lottery. Just be assured that it won't be you." Or, "Don't bet what you cannot afford to lose."

NYCM&AHole

Can you guys cover russias admission of North Koreans in kursk (which is consistent with Russia and north korean arrangements ) in the next show?

Hans Anders

Industrial policy really isn’t enough to get manufacturing back to the west. To get manufacturing back, you have to be competitive. To do that, wages will have to fall dramatically. Living standards here would have to approach those in countries where they do manufacture goods.

a clash of purple

Or the government would have to provide financial incentives to companies that make it worth their while to pay higher wages. Or, here's a crazy idea, the government could just create public non-profit entities to carry out domestic manufacturing. But obviously those options would not appeal to capitalist morons.

a clash of purple

That's good advice. But I feel like, as long as you don't try to hold out for maximum profit, you could make *some* money on crypto pretty easily. Buy some, wait for the value to jump, then immediately sell and don't look back. The losers are going to be the ones who bought in, then tried to hold out for as long as possible to get the highest possible return on investment without having some kind of insider knowledge to know exactly when to dump it. Buuut, doing it that way, I doubt you'd make the kind of profit that'd be very interesting. On average you'd probably do just as well to put your money in a normal mutual fund. So your point still stands. You really need some kind of insider info (like be part of Trump or Bukele's inner circle) to make a large amount of profit off crypto.

a clash of purple

A lot of countries have fake elections. The fact that the CCP genuinely has strong support doesn't mean their elections are real. You're being disingenuous. I honestly don't know how *democratic* China is compared to, say, the U.S.. Cuba is a one-party state as well, but they actually encourage a lot of civic participation when it comes to legislation and designing policy; I think Cuba is more democratic than the U.S., despite the clear limits there. But in the PRC, I don't know how much input regular citizens have on government policy. To me, honestly, that is more important than just picking between a few jerks who happen to be good at telling people what they want to hear.

Hans Anders

Like Stein said, it’s either a strong dollar and cheap imports supporting high living standards, or competitive domestic manufacturing. Your options could work combined with high tariffs, but it would result in a sort of late Soviet economy. Largely uncompetitive industries that live on only due to protection.

Tariq

one of the biggest problems with covering anything related to this trade war is how quickly the Trump regime changes course. on one hand they are extremely dumb, on the other hand it feels like they’re trying to keep us all off balance.

JoR

At least the early 80s I think. Maybe mid 80s? I think Mark had John as a professor lol

CR

I for one welcome our Chinese overlords, but I don’t expect them to ever come. We can inflict a century of humiliation on ourselves without their help.

CR

It’s both

etienne

having woo-woo consultation sessions where hand-picked candidates politely listen to your concerns and suggestion and ferry it to the single-party cadre is more democratic than casting votes for the entire executive and legislative branch. sure.

Tariq

stein is so smart and really good at explaining things. internet leftists would be really well served reading him, and people like him, to actually understand the global financial system we’re trying to critique

Tariq

i don’t agree with his opinion of China, but his explanation of the financial system and the current state of affairs is good and helpful. stein is more good than bad for what he is.

Alyx Kapoor

John, I am listening to this episode a couple days late because I was also in the Yucatan, you need hydrocortisone for the bites. I must've gotten 25 bites on each foot and that stuff made it better within 10mins. Get picardin based bug lotion, it doesn't smell, it's way less harmful than DEET, and it doesn't give you the weird icky sunscreen feeling.