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Radio War Nerd EP #148—Spanish-American War, Neocons & Anti-Interventionists, with Stephen Kinzer (Patreon)

Published:
2018-09-12 18:24:01
Edited:
2018-09-12 18:26:54
Imported:
2026-06
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Guest: Stephen Kinzer, author & Senior Fellow

Recorded September 7, 2018

The Spanish-American War was a crummy war by all standards, including most books about that war. Thankfully, Stephen Kinzer wrote a great book about that lousy war: "The True Flag: Theodore Roosevelt, Mark Twain and the Birth of American Empire". In this RWN episode, Kinzer helps the War Nerd recover the incredible  lost history of that war, and of that period. Teddy Roosevelt's gang would be considered fascist psychopaths today, and Twain said as much at the time. But the real lost story is the savage Philippines Insurgency that followed the war, and the incredible debates in the US between imperialists and anti-imperialists that took place at the time. (Spoiler alert: The imperialists won.) 

At 1:11:00 the War Nerd and Ames discuss current war news: Battle for Idlib means more insane western propaganda about Idlib and the Al Qaeda "rebels" who control the province . . . What about Afrin, where Turkey invaded, occupied & ethnically cleansed . . . Trump regime claims Assad regime preparing chemical weapons attacks on Idlib, with backing from Putin regime . . . Qatar-backed Libyan rebel leader allied with ISIS . . . Simon Tisdall strikes again! . . . Britain charges two scary Russian flatheads with Skripal poisoning . . .  

Buy Stephen Kinzer's book "True Flag: Theodore Roosevelt, Mark Twain & the Birth of American Empire" & read his articles on his blog. Follow Kinzer on Twitter. Stephen Kinzer is Senior Fellow at the Watson Institute for International and Public Affairs at Brown University.

Images

* "The Water Cure"

* Fake News

* Liberal interventionist propaganda 

* Gen. Smith's counterinsurgency strategy: "Kill everyone over 10"

Intermission music by Brendon Anderegg 

Total time: 2:05:22

Direct link to this episode's mp3 here 

Files

Comments

Tom Warner

i'm reading The True Flag right now for entirely unrelated reasons and started thinking "this is a crazy war, wonder if RWN ever did an episode about it"........ delighted to find this

Jay Burnett

Also ... Sergei Skripal is still alive ..total incompetents

William Brennan

The war of 1898 for a great study of the spanish american war. imperial san francisco by gray brechin for the role of san francisco capitalists, uc berkeley faculty and administration, and hearst in bringing about the war.

Avery

On the subject of imperialist machismo, the 1890s was also the time when Muscular Christianity first rose to the fore in American society. It's now a very visible part of life in our armed forces etc.

Ryan McCarthy

For Sicily you could also get Robin Pierson back for the protracted Byzantine-Arab Wars there. Or get Dr Anthony Kaldellis (guest and major source for the Byzantine podcast)

Angleton

Since you are talking about NeoCons, Imperialists, and want a Guest for the Greek Invasion of Sicily go get Donald Kagan. /s

Chris H

Re Sicily: You could try someone from the Ancient Warfare Magazine/podcast (thehistorynetwork.org). If you can't get Donald Kagan himself that is.

Larry Dimes

I really enjoyed this episode, so thanks. I just wanted to comment on the reluctance on the part of the left to really do some self reflection and come to terms with the fact that it was the smiling, cheerful, allegedly looking out for the little guy liberals that sent America down its imperial path. Wilson gave us the espionage act to suppress dissent against his own internationalist intervention. New Dealers gave us the CIA and the age of hugely bloated and unaccountable defense budgets. The Great Society gave us Vietnam. Jimmy Carter gave us Afghanistan. Obama gave us the heart eating moderates in Syria and got the slave trade going again in Libya. All in the name of 'Human Rights' or 'spreading freedom' or some other feel good phrases. It's always been a part of the liberal project, from the progressive age onward, and I think it would suit the left well to take a long hard look at these people and its own culpability in letting them do what they've done. I think it's very telling watching all these progressives close ranks around NATO and the massive defense spending it requires and ratcheting up tensions with Moscow, all in the name of "preserving democracy" of course. I'm glad you guys are on the left but are willing to take these people to task. And I think if you want to continue covering the history of liberal interventionism, may I suggest an episode on Wilson and his getting the US into the first world war.

Sérgio Teixeira da Silva

"Obama gave us the heart eating moderates in Syria" - that was mostly Bush II. "And I think if you want to continue covering the history of liberal interventionism, may I suggest an episode on Wilson and his getting the US into the first world war." One of the things I most like about RWN is not being Anglocentric. Making it about "The US and UK are the only countries that matter, but EVIL!!!" wouldn't, IMO, be an improvement.

Larry Dimes

Oh I don't think the US or the UK are evil, all nations do things like this when they decide to go for the imperial route. They get big, get powerful, then ossify and get senile, and then the rising powers overtake them and the cycle begins again. There isn't any morality in this play, it's just one of those things IMO. I just find the case studies about how it happens interesting and this episode got me thinking about the US and the internal political strategies of the left. Hell I'd love an episode on the ossification of the Spanish Empire or the Qing Dynasty, or the Crusader Kingdoms or a galaxy of other imperial projects. How does it happen? ISIS is due to 'de-ba'athification' sure, but the Arab spring began in 2011, as did the Syrian civil war and US involvement thereof. That's well into Obama's first term.

Matthew C

interesting interview. Not sure about if I totally agree with that whole "the left should partner with the far right for the purposes of changing americas foreign policy" thing he pitched. I seem to remember a certain group of liberals that though they could partner with a far right party to stop a common enemy and, well, its the nazis you get what im saying. Regardless, Im glad you had someone on that could talk about the US occupation of the Philippines, and especially like the point he makes about unforeseen consequences a la waterboarding. To many people on the left *cough* chapo *cough* that I hear try and make these points about how the US left should be domestically focused and that there isnt a need to make understanding geopolitics a priority. This is a total failure to recognize the reality of the world around us, and just how difficult it would/will be to disentangle us from its politics (if thats even possible).

Sérgio Teixeira da Silva

On knowing imperialism would lead to tyranny at home: given people had Classical educations back then, perhaps not foresight, but hindsight was at work - Rome hesitated to annex Egypt because people worried that the general to do it would become a tyrant, and (more than a handful of) people in the US in 1900 knew that. We no longer have Classical educations, so: For a war nerd curriculum! On the humanitarian/ruthless duality (also seen in the UK and France to some extent; arguably present in a number of other empires), part is that (possibly only) a particularly effective (including ruthless) empire is safe and prosperous enough for humanitarism to be considered; part is that the US was founded from different cultures with different doses of those, which fought each other - on that, I'd love to hear RWN interview David Hackett Fisher (author of Albion's Seed - last I heard, working on a sequel about the birth of Afro-USian culture) before he ... dies. Theodore may have faked a bunch of specific stuff, but at least part of his famed character seems to have been "artificial" (he'd been a weak kid) rather than "fake": the evidence being <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roosevelt%E2%80%93Rondon_Scientific_Expedition" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roosevelt%E2%80%93Rondon_Scientific_Expedition</a> (the area isn't for the faint of heart even today). What the racist anti-imperialists wanted to prevent is summarized today as "Invade the World, Invite the World", a.k.a. "it's awesome that imperialism won the World Cup for France". I don't think I'll be able to go to a Dolan workshop on rhetoric, so I think I'd pay good money for a course in writing if that existed (I'd like to see a complete list of John & Mark's writings, too). That said, e.g. Trump does the *exact opposite* of some of John's recommendations and his rhetoric (specifically) is popular with ... some millions of people (his "charisma" can be overstated because *anybody* running for the Republican Party would've gotten close to 50% of the votes, but Trump's oratory seems to clearly outperform with Republican voters).

Sérgio Teixeira da Silva

Good to know you don't want to make this into "History Channel Podcast". :P I wasn't criticizing the use of "evil" so much as saying "US and UK actually aren't all that special" - you can see China doing all that and more 2000 (and 1000, and closer) years ago, for one, and there's certainly others. And there's all the things to talk about that aren't mostly about imperialism. Call me crazy, but I think Obama's foreign policy was just about the best that could be gotten of a US president (Qadhdhafi's, and Libya's, and Europe's, sad fates notwithstanding; I think it wasn't Obama that was interested): initially trying to fix things with Russia, *actually* improving things with Iran, and being hated by Netanyahu - and I think one of most Republicans or many Democrats would've gone all-in against Syria. There was a lot wrong, but I think Obama is indeed an example (possibly actually unusual in that) of "Democrats less bad" (Hillary'd be different, of course) compared to ... his predecessor and successor.

Sérgio Teixeira da Silva

Well, back then there was a lot more collusion with Nazis on part of the Conservatives, including that "invade everyone" part. Those that agree on something should work together in that. (In a sane (i.e. multi-)party system, this might be easier.) Can you provide a Chapo quote on that? That's somewhat stupider than (the much) I expected.

Borvis

Robert Drews of Vanderbilt would be great to talk to about Syracuse. He basically came up with the idea (later proven right) that the destruction that met the ancient world, except Egypt, around 1200 BC was caused by bands of raiders and led to the development of phalanx fighting.

Loui

I think you're selling the hosts of chapo a little short on their internationalism, I do agree that the DSA crowd in general is weak on imperialism

eh

Interesting episode, but while I can see the argument for US imperialism entering a new phase with the conquest of the remnants of the Spanish empire the idea that counterinsurgency, displacement and massacre were new experiences for the US armed forces is overstated at best. After all, the continental US empire and the British colonies both needed to constantly displace native populations to make "virgin land" for settlers.

Fabian

John Sayles made a great movie called "Amigo" that is about the Philippine-American war. For a while it wasn't very easy to find, but now it is on Amazon Prime video.

Matthew C

i dont remember the exact episode (im terrible with that sort of thing) but I believe it involved amber mentioning that because of the need to focus domestically, its wasnt wise to focus/learn much about foreign policy as that would detract from the more important goal, and because ultimately you would want to dismantle the american empire anyways. Like I said those arent her exact words but I definitely remember her having the sentiment that she didnt consider it important.

Sérgio Teixeira da Silva

Thanks. As if no longer being the strongest country would *reduce* the need to pay attention to the others. LOL.

Kevin Woram

Re: The Sicilian Expedition. I'm a PhD student in ancient history, so speaking with some knowledge on the subject. Kagan has already been mentioned, but he's rather old and his scholarship on the Peloponnesian War is a bit dated. His student Jon "Ted" Lendon at UVA would be a good alternative. He wrote a response to Kagan's book that has a different take for the origins of the Peloponnesian War. Peter Green (Emeritus at UTexas) is another possibility, though he is a bit old as well. In his book "Aramada from Athens," he argues that the Sicilian Expedition was driven by the need to secure an alternative source of grain apart from the Black Sea. He's one of the few competent historians who can actually write well. Another potential person would be Josiah Ober at Stanford. He's the expert on Athenian Democracy, so he might have some good insights on the thinking behind the expedition. I hope this helps!

radiowarnerd

Hi Kevin, Thanks very much for these suggestions. I'm going to try contacting some of them now.

Kevin Woram

Glad to help! I questioned my advisor a bit, and he also suggested: Barry Strauss (Cornell), Simon Hornblower (Oxford), and Hans van Wees (University College London).

Jim Vail

Some excellent exposure in this episode. But Kinzer has a bad line on imperialism as a "policy" or a "choice". Not the case. It is where capitalism inevitably goes. He suggests imperialism wasn't inevitable, that it could have been stopped by one vote here and there. Wrong line on role of individuals, that they decide big issues--individuals are important, but as representatives of the outlook of different classes, not ideas in the abstract. Also weird analysis of the press: the media doesn't report on things because the government doesn't talk about them. Wrong. Splits in ruling class, such as in Vietnam. The discussion of Idlib that followed was great.

Paul Vd

It's even more ridiculous that the Western tabloids are still implying that they were GRU even though they had a night of hookers and weed on the job

Paul Vd

I happen to believe that the Russian state was sincere when they shut down all of their chemical weapons programs. Ive read material on the shut downs. I also believe that Russia & Syria were sincere when Assad gave up his chem weapons in 2013. So I think this is the most gutless fucking low blow that the Anglo empire as ever delivered to Russia. Russia did the right thing & yet the empire accuses them of doing the exact opposite.

Sérgio Teixeira da Silva

I forgot: in a capitalist democracy, the government doesn't control the media - the media decides what the people will want, which the government then proceeds to do (along with other things the people doesn't notice because they don't want to).

CancerBottle

What was the song used in the interlude after the interview? It doesn't sound like Brendon's usual style.

Martin Knutsen

Oh, as a norwegian i nerded on the US Philipine war. The massacre was in a volcano bowl, yes? But you should do something about Guatemala/El Salvador...

Ezra de Leon

I think you're both right that you need to go more into this. I'm disappointed that you didn't include a Filipino perspective or even mentioned any Filipinos by name. Emilio Aguinaldo alone has an interesting story: he had one of his rivals executed (Andres Bonifacio, who actually helped start the rebellion against Spain) but was a better military commander than him. Captured by Spain then exiled to Hong Kong, he came back to take charge again. He was also caught in the fight against the US, was turned, then became pro-American. This book goes into more detail on all that: https://www.amazon.com/Little-Brown-Brother-Purchased-Philippine/dp/1582882096 There's a great story of a black soldier who defects (because really, why would you die for a country that's killing people like you?) then becomes a highly ranked officer with the Philippine army. I heard Spike Lee was going to adapt it into a movie but I guess that went nowhere. There's even the issue of the name of the war: for a long time the US called it the Philippine Insurrection, as if invading another country makes you the rightful ruler and the people fighting for their country are rebels. There's a recent novel, Insurrecto by Gina Apostol, that I've read some good reviews on. Anyway, I hope you can get a Filipino on any follow up show you do. There's probably tons of Filipino Americans who would be knowledgeable on the subject. (BTW Balangiga is pronounced with hard 'g's. Also a cool story about that. The guerrillas had infiltrated the US base by dressing as women. At the stroke of the church bells they started hacking up the US soldiers. After the massacre the US took the church bells as war booty; Duterte was asking to get them back.)

Mark Ames

Agree with all of this, esp getting a Filipino history nerd-comrade on to tell us these stories. Any suggestions?

Ezra de Leon

Me? Nah, I hate how my voice sounds. Let me ask around online. I don't hang out with any Filipinos outside my immediate family.

Mark Ames

Lemme tell ya about hating the sound of your voice...seriously, join the club Ezra, you have no idea how painful it is. Come 'n join the pain!

Mark Ames

But seriously, we'd love to have exactly the stories you're talking about that are missing. If not you, then any recommendations would be hugely appreciated by all the rwn community

Ezra de Leon

I literally just sent a message to someone I follow online. Let me see if she responds and get back to you. Is there an easier way of communicating through Patreon? I keep having to scroll to this episode in order to reply.