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Radio War Nerd EP #170 — Sino-Vietnamese War, 1979 (Patreon)

Published:
2019-02-26 16:40:17
Imported:
2026-06
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Guest: Carl Zha, podcaster 

Recorded: February 23, 2019

It's the 40th anniversary of the 1979 Sino-Vietnamese War, a brief and bloody war between two Communist neighbors that was little understood in the West, and has largely been forgotten since. The War Nerd invites one of our favorite guests back to the show to tell us what happened in that war, and give us all the crucial context to understand why China invaded. 

Check out Carl Zha's new podcast Silk & Steel at Patreon. Follow Carl Zha on Twitter and Facebook.

Maps:

* China's invasion, 1979

*Topographical map of Chinese invasion

Total time: 2:19:16

Direct link to this episode's mp3 here 

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Comments

moe

Worked at museums for 3 years, sometimes the job of the old women sitting in exhibitions. My condolences, War Nerd. The rules really are as pointless we all know they are.

MS

Looking forward to this. Can I suggest the (North) Vietnamese military as a suitable topic for examination? Just consider their record.

MS

... endured Japanese occupation, defeated and ejected the French, defeated and ejected the US, defeated Khmer Rouge, deterred China and didn't once whine about their casualties or missing in action soldiers - unlike a certain 'indispensible nation' :) .. and best of all didn't hold a grudge against their erstwhile Western belligerents.

Henry

On Russian art museums: in 2005 when I was 14 I spent 18 days in and around St. Petersburg with an Ohio Episcopal Church group. One day, we did the Hermitage. I knew almost nothing about and had zero appreciation for art so I don't remember most of it. I know I was bored and most of our group (a mix of American and Russian teens from Sablino (very proud of their caves) and Tosno (very proud of their nasty large orange salmon fish eggs on bread). I wandered aimlessly through the museum by myself stopping to nod thoughtfully at anything that caught my eye. A young war nerd, any depictions of battle got most of my attention and I remember there was a gold peacock or something like that that was kinda cool. One painting in particular caught my eye. I like to tell myself it was a Monet, but I'm not sure anymore. Definitely a name I recognized and knew I was obligated to stop and appreciate. I remember there was a lot of blue and I couldn't tell if the texture of the painting was really skilled shadowing--an optical illusion sort of thing--or if Monet just aggressively painted with thick globs. A true art appreciator, I had to find out. I pressed my head against the wall next to the painting to get better look. The frame got in the way, but if I had to guess I would've said globs. Still, I wasn't sure. I did what any reasonable person in my situation would do: checked over my shoulder to make sure nobody was looking, and poked the painting with my right index finger. I can report that Monet in fact painted with giant globs of paint. I was not caught and continued with the rest of my visit without a care in the world. The next day we went to the Winter Palace. On the way, one of our two buses was pulled over. I started freaking out. It wasn't my bus, but the authorities were definitely on to me. But, it turned out it was "blue bus day" and the cops were fining the other bus so they could get lunch. I kept a low profile for the rest of the trip and made it home safely. I haven't been back since.

JoR

I completely agree. If I'm remembering correctly, they even put up a real tough fight against the Mongols, maybe even won? (of course we still need at least one episode on the Mongols themselves. there's just so much to cover in general.)

zaabittimov

Regarding Cambodia, listeners might be interested in one of the only interviews with Pol Pot conducted during his rule by Yugoslav journalists. I'm gonna paste an English translation because the only one I could find online is linked to a weird nazbol site and I don't wanna give them the hits..... Phnom Penh home Service 2300 gmt 20 Mar 1978. Text of report of interview given on 17th March by the Cambodian Premier, Pol Pot, to a visiting Yugoslav press delegation {read by announcers]. At 0830 on 17th March 1978 at the state guest house, Comrade Pal Pot, Secretary of the CPK Central Committee and Premier of the Democratic Cambodian Government, received and answered questions in an interview with the Yugoslav press delegation which is now on a visit to Democratic Cambodia. First of all, our Comrade Party Secretary said to the journalists from the friendly country: We are very pleased with the Yugoslav press delegation’s visit to our country. The visit of our comrade Yugoslav journalists will further strengthen the ties of friendship between our two peoples and countries. Like our Democratic Cambodia, Yugoslavia is a non-aligned country which has ad’aered to the position of preserving independence. Friendship between our two countries is therefore based on the same principle. We have always esteemed and respected Comrade President Tito and the friendly Yugoslav people. Comrade President Tito and the Yugoslav people have always supported and helped us. We have sympathy for them and wish to express our thanks to Comrade President Tito and the friendly Yugoslav people. In 1950, i went to Yugoslavia to work in a work unit in the Zagreb area. I have sympathy for President Tito and the Yugoslav people. Comrades, you come to our country as friends. Now we would like to answer your questions. Question One: Respected Comrade Pal Pot: Within a short lime you will celebrate the third anniversary of your country’s liberation. Would you please, therefore, tell us about the outstanding results of your work of national construction and rehabilitation during the last three years. Answer: We are pleased to answer your question as follows. For almost three years, we have rehabilitated and built the country and have achieved a fairly large number of good results. However, first of all, we would like to tell you at the same time we still have a lot of work to do. The first outstanding result is the fact that we have succeeded in solving the agricultural problem particularly with regard to growing rice. As we have succeeded in increasing the rice yield, we have enough rice to feed our people ourselves. In 1976, we initiated a plan to produce three tons of rice per hectare. We achieved 80 to 90% of this production plan. This permitted us to solve the problem of the people’s livelihood and still have rice available for export. In 1977, we planned to produce three tons of rice per hectare on land growing one crop a year and six tons of rice per hectare on land growing two crops a year. We fulfilled nearly 100% of this plan. That is why our 1977 rice yield has increased over that of 1976. As a result, our people’s riving conditions have improved and we still have rice available for export. Our slogan is: “When we have rice, we can have everything”. This is because when the people have enough rice to satisfy their needs, we also have rice for export and then we can import all the necessary commodities. As I told you earlier, our successes in agriculture have resulted from the fact that we have developed the basis for it – irrigation systems. The existence of irrigation systems is an important factor which can secure a high yield for rice and other farm products. Along with the development of agriculture, there can also be development in other fields. Industry, handicrafts, social action and culture can develop and expand in accordance with our agricultural line. Another outstanding success is the fact that we have eradicated malaria which represented a danger to more than 80% of our population. In the past, our people were affected by malaria each year and had difficult in carrying out their work. Now, as we have solved more than 90% of the malaria eradication problem our people’s health is far better than before. Another outstanding result of our work is the fact that we have succeeded in basically eradicating illiteracy which was a social disease in the old society. It is true that in the old society there were some universities and secondary and primary schools in large cities and towns, but the majority of our people in the remote areas of our countryside were illiterate. This problem has now been basically solved. People can read and write. This is a foundation which enables the people to gradually enhance their culture. It is not just one section of our population which has the chance to study; in fact, all our people now have the chance to study. We have adopted this foundation for lhe development and advancement of our education. As for other results, they are not so important. However, we wish to inform you that we have organized our health system throughout the country, particularly in our co-operatives. Each co-operative has an infirmary and a pharmaceutical production centre. The pharmaceutical products are prepared in accordance with national and popular methods. Through this effort, we have succeeded in solving the people’s health problem to a large extent. The conditions are now different from what they were before. In the past, there were medical personnel only in Phnom Penh and other major towns, but now members of the medical corps are stationed throughout the country and in our co-operatives. Medical services are now available even to people in remote areas. This medical service is only basic, but on this basis we will gradually improve our medical capability. With regard to handcrafts and small industrial workshops, we have not achieved any significant or important results but we have set up workshops everywhere. Every co-operative has its own handicraft shops and workshops. This is the basis for the development of our handicrafts and for thc gradual industrial development of our country. These are our outstanding successes which were due to the efforts of our people who are led by the CPK. The people have done all this by themselves; they have seen the results and have taken pleasure in them. Question Two: During our short stay in your beautiful country, we have seen signs that your revolution is completely cut off from the past. So what sort of a model for a society are you now trying to build upon? Answer: We wish to inform you that we don’t have any model upon which to build a new society. In the special national congress in late April 1975, we noted that the major role of carrying out the revolution and the national liberation war had been taken by the workers and peasants who made up the majority. They have been the ones who have shouldered the heaviest responsibilities, so they must continue to reap the revolutionary rewards. This has also been specified in the preamble of our Constitution. We have the desire to build a prosperous and happy Cambodian society in which all enjoy equality, happiness and a society free from all class or individual forms of exploitation, in which everyone strives to increase production and to defend the country. It is on this basis that we are striving to build a new society. It is with this aim that we are striving to build the present new society. Therefore, the trend of our effort to build a new society is based on the aspiration of the people, especially our workers and peasants who represent the majority. The people have realized that this way of building society is good and they will continue to carry on the work. However, if they ever decide that this way is not good, they will stop it. It is up to the people. Our experiences have proved that we are entirely dependent upon the people in waging the revolution and the national liberation war. If the people attempt a task, they will certainly succeed, but if the people do not want to do something, we cannot do anything in their place. For this reason, we would like to point out to you that we do not have any preconceived model or pattern of any kind for a new society. This means that we are working with the aim of serving the people’s aspirations, as specified in the preamble of our Constitution – the Constitution of our Democratic Cambodia. Question Three: We have seen that in the current phase of your revolution you have mobilized all national forces to develop agriculture. But, do you have any plans for industrial development? And if so, how are you going to train the cadres essential for this purpose? As far as we know, you have no universities, colleges or technical schools at present. Answer: We have both the desire and a plan to build our industry quickly. Using agriculture as our basis, we will strive to develop our industry. It’s our view that in order to have an independent economy, we must develop our agriculture, industry and other sectors. Therefore, this is also our aim. However, where can we obtain the necessary capital to build the industries? We must depend on agriculture to create capital. For example, we now have trade relations with our Yugoslav comrades. We export our farm products and import the industrial goods we need for our agricultural sector and our industry as well. At the same time, our principle is to train as many technical cadres as possible as quickly as possible. Speaking of universities and higher and secondary education as it existed in the past, it seems that we have none. However, we are now developing our technical ranks at our bases. In the co-operatives there are several types of workshops where people are trained on the job. This sort of training is available in all factories in Phnom Penh and in the provinces as well. In this way, people work and are trained at the same time. Before liberation, there were a number of graduates who had been educated in Phnom Penh, the provinces or abroad. But, as far as concrete results are concerned, these graduates could not serve the industrial or handicraft movements as well as the- people of the present day. The technical cadres now emerging from our bases enable our people to produce more. Using this experience, we have trained technical cadres in our bases and have gradually increased their technical ability. They do practical work and gain practical experience; and if they make mistakes, they can correct them and thus improve their knowledge. ! have learned that many of you comrade journalists are familiar with Cambodia and visited here several times before liberation. During that period there were only a few Cambodian technicians; they were outnumbered by the foreign technicians then. That is why we are now striving essentially to train Cambodian technicians. To cite some concrete results, many years were spent on the construction of a hydrological project on the Stoeng Prek Tnot, but nothing was achieved. In 1976- 77, however, we succeeded in building five dams on the Stoeng Prek Tnot. By doing practical work, we gain practical experience. We believe that if we wait any longer, we shall never be able to give timely support to the production movement and we shall never be able to solve the problems of the people’s livelihood. 1 could cite other examples. In fact, we are now capable of building our own rice husking machines, pumps with engines, rice-threshers, and other kinds of engines. We make some of this mechanical equipment completely by ourselves; we have adapted other imported machines for bur own purposes. In the past, this was not possible; everything was imported. In brief, we have considered industrial matters and the training of technicians. In the future, we will know how much we can improve the quality of our indigenous technicians. Meanwhile, however, we will follow the principle of working and learning at the same time, for all concerned will learn in this process. We also plan to send our technicians to friendly countries for training at seminars in order to develop their technological knowledge. They will attend such seminars only in friendly countries. Question four: we have witnessed that your cities are deserted today. Can you explain the aim of this operation? Why have you abolished the role of money, the system of monthly wages, and the trade network? Is this a temporary trend in the social changes and revolutionary transformations in your society, or is it a model society that you.are trying to create on a long term basis? Answer: There are many reasons for the evacuation of inhabitants from Phnom Penh and other cities. First, there is the economic consideration – the question of providing food for millions or hundreds of thousands of people in each city. When we examined this problem, we saw that it was beyond our capability. It would be • impossible for us to feed so many millions of townspeople. To take these people to the countryside and relocate them in co-operatives would be a good solution, as the co-operatives had rice fields and other means of production at their disposal. We have co-operatives which are willing to have the townspeople live and work with them. The co-operatives own cattle, buffaloes and all other means of production in common. Our strength is ill the countryside;our weakness is in the cities. Therefore, we came to the conclusion that we had to ask the people to go and live in the countryside in order to solve the food problem. If would could solve the problem of food supplies, tile people would gain confidence in us. Staying in the cities meant starvation. A hungry people would not believe in the revolution. This is the economic reason. However, in addition to the economic reason, there was also the problem of defending the country and maintaining national security. Before liberation, we learned about the plan of US imperialism and its lackeys. The latter cooked up a plan in preparation for their defeat. According to this plan, after our victory and our entry in Phnom Penh, they would agitate (Cambodian: kraluk) against us inside the capital in all fields – economic, military and political – in an attempt to overthrow our revolution. Therefore, taking this situation into consideration, we decided to evacuate the people from the cities and relocate them in the rural co-operatives so that we could solve the food problem and become the first to smash the US imperialist plan, preventing them from attacking us when we entered Phnom Penh. Thus, this action was not preplanned. It was the realization that a food shortage was imminent and that there was a need to solve the problem of food for the people, as well as the realization that there was a plan by US lackeys to attack us, that prompted us to evacuate the cities. As for the question of money, the role of money, salaries and the commercial system, it can be explained as follows: In 1970-71 we managed to liberate 75 to 80% of the country. During that period we had our political and military power. However, we did not wield any economic power. The economy was in the hands of the landlords and the capitalists. These people received everything that was produced, because they had the money to do so. We decided that in the liberated zone the people should sell their rice to the revolutionary administration at the rate of 30 riels per 12/kg bushel. However, the landlords and merchants offered from 100 to 200 riels for each 12/kg bushel of rice and resold it to Lon Nol. At that time we had nothing. The people suffered badly from a shortage of food. So did the army. As a result, the national liberation war was badly affected. After examining this situation, we decided to organize and set up co-operatives, so that these co-operatives of the collective masses could control the economy and production in the countryside and distribute what was produced within co-operatives, among co-operatives from co-operatives to the State and from the State to the co-operatives. In this way, we could control agricultural production and solve the problem of livelihood for the people. The people, in turn, could offer their sons and daughters for service in the army for the attack against the enemy. As the co-operatives started providing support for each other and bartering their produce with each other, the role of money became increasingly less important. In 1972 the role of money was fading out. In 1973, money lost much of its importance. In 1974, it became non-existent in 80% of the liberated zone. Immediately before liberation, only the State spent money in purchasing goods outside the liberated zone for the support of the liberated zone under its control. With such experience, we asked the mass opinion on the matter and were told that money was useless as everything was traded on a barter system within the co-operatives. Therefore, in the liberated zone at the time – which represented more than 90% of the territory and was inhabited by almost 6,000,000 people – we completely ;olved this problem. When the people left the cities they all received the support )f the co-operatives. Therefore we have ceased to use money up to the present. What will happen in this respect in the future? It is up to the people, if the people want to use money again, we will use money again, if they see that is it not necessary, it is up to them. Therefore, the future will be decided on the basis of practicality. This is why we told you that we do not have a blueprint or a readymade model. It all depends on the experience of the revolutionary mass movement. We will learn from this experience while it is being implemented. The suspension of the wage system also has its precedent. In the successive revolutionary movements and particularly during the national liberation war, neither our cadres nor combatants received wages, nor did our people. Before liberation, when we controlled 90% of the country, about 6,000,000 people were accustomed to this practice. In other words, our cadres, combatants and about 6,000,000 of our people did not receive any pay. This became a tradition. Moreover, the truth is that in the past the majority of the people received no wage at all; only functionaries did. Thus, having got used to this, the people who left Phnom Penh went straight into the co-operatives while the local cadres, army cadres, army combatants or workers were treated the same as they were during the war. We hold that we must avoid causing any burden to the people and keep money mainly for financing national construction and defence efforts. And the future? The future is completely up to the actual situation of the time and the will of the people. The commercial network is under the control of the State and the co-operatives which work together. The State collects the produce of the co-operatives and distributes it inside the country or exports it, and the State imports goods to be distributed throughout the country. This is the method which has been implemented so far. This method is also one of our wartime traditions. The future also depends on the actual situation. That is to say, we do not take the present system as a permanent one. Neither is it a transitional one. We have been practising this method in accordance with the actual situation. In the future, we will also stick to the actual situation. The determining factor is the people. Question Five: As we see it, Democratic Cambodia is having problems and all kinds of difficulties with its neighbour. What is your opinion? How can you solve and overcome all these problems and difficulties? Answer: Like all other newly liberated countries. Democratic Cambodia is experiencing difficulties. This is a normal situation. Historically speaking, to our knowledge, the difficulties being experienced by our Democratic Cambodia are not as serious as those of several other newly liberated countries. Of course, Democratic Cambodia certainly has difficulties. The main difficulty arises from the fact that we have been adhering to the position of being independent and taking our destiny into our own hands. This has frustrated some countries and annoyed the expansionists and imperialists. However, it is our opinion that upholding the position of independence and self-reliance can cause difficulties. But these difficulties are no worse than those that Cambodia and the Cambodian people would have experienced if they had become other people’s slave, in which case there would no longer be a Cambodian nation and Cambodian people. Therefore, we are ready to preserve the position of independence, sovereignty, territorial integrity, non-alignment and self-determination forever, no matter how many obstacles we have to fight and overcome. As for the question of how to solve these difficulties, it depends on both our side and the side of those opposing us. We have successively tried to solve this issue through negotiations. Right after liberation, in June 1975 we – myself and a number of other leading comrades – went to Hanoi. We were willing to go there and express our good w~ll to settle our long-standing problems. Many problems were discussed. The border issue was among these problems. We held that Cambodia wanted nothing more than to live in peace and we asked that the frontier, which in 1966-67 the Vietnamese side solemnly recognized and promised to respect, be the boundary between the two countries in an attempt to preserve, strengthen and expand the friendship between our nations and peoples. We did not reclaim our territory. We did not ask for the return of any of our former territories, islands or even one square inch of land. Still, they did not even talk to us. They did not deal with this issue, because they had the greater ambition of annexing the whole of Cambodia in the form of an Indochinese federation in which their people would be settled in Cambodia by the thousands and millions each year so that within 30 years or more the Cambodian people would be turned into a minority. This situation was clear. In May 1976, we invited them for talks in Phnom Penh. They were reluctant to come. When they did come, they told us that it was because we insisted. During the talks they rejected the frontier that they had recognized and promised to respect in 1966-67. They said that in 1966 they had agreed with Cambodia on this point, because at that time they had been compelled to fight US imperialism. Therefore, it was a deception. Furthermore, they proposed a new border demarcation which took away a vast part of our territorial waters. We saw this as sheer expansionism. No hint of friendship could be detected. They thought that they could put pressure on us because ours was a small country. We did not comply. The talks were therefore a failure. At the same time, they continued to use military forces to attack us in the border region in an attempt to coerce us into capitulating. Again, we did not comply. How can we agree with them. It is unacceptable for us to become a slave of the Vietnamese after making allout efforts to fight the imperialists and their lackeys. It is unacceptable to our people and our army. How then will we proceed to solve this issue? We are solving it in accordance with the actual situation. If they truly respect our sovereignty and independence, if they have true friendship, there is no difficulty in solving it. it can be solved immediately. However, if they persist in taking Cambodia, we will have to adopt a position for the defence of our independence, sovereignty and territorial integrity. However, it is our opinion that these difficulties will be solved gradually. First, we will have to safeguard our independence, sovereignty and territorial integrity at all costs. In order to succeed in this endeavour, the entire people must be united, strive to maximize production and improve their living standard. Also, we must export more to secure more capital to finance national construction and defence. At the same time, we hold that friends of Democratic Cambodia all over the world are standing on the side of our country and that the number of these friends is steadily growing. We hold that many countries cherish independence and that some of them – Yugoslavia, to cite just one example – have a firm stand for independence. These independence-minded countries can see who is right and who is wrong, who wants peace and friendship and who is expansionist and aggressive. The independence, and justice-loving countries have seen this more and more clearly. The trend, as we feel it, is becoming more and more favourable to us. Therefore, those who have been committing expansionism and aggression against us should realize, also gradually, that they can no longer carry out aggression, expansionism and annexation against Cambodia. Only then will we be able to solve the problem. Nevertheless, we have to continue to cope with the prevailing situation. Question Six: Many articles have been written throughout the world with or without reason, to the effect that your country is too insular. Are you considering making it more open to the world? If so, what principle and direction will you follow? Answer: Since our liberation, we have gained one friend after another. After liberation, there were many problems to be solved, such as rehabilitating the country and improving the people’s livelihood. This is called putting one’s house in order, re-establishing order inside the country. While we were carrying out these tasks, we were honoured by the successive visits of our friends. We hold that, in the future, a steadily increasing number of friends will call on us. There were some in 1975; more Visited us in 1976; still more in 1977; and more will visit us in 1978. In the years to come, an increasing number of friends will visit us. We are opening up to you, inviting you to visit us, to come to our country. We expect that more friends will be invited to come and see us, and that friendship will be further strengthened and expanded with all these friendly peoples and countries. Regarding the personages and various organizations showing friendship with and justice to Cambodia, we have invited and will invite more of them to visit our country, in our opinion, the trend is that more and more friends will come and visit us. Nevertheless, it is imperative for us to prepare our house and put it in order to the best of our ability in order to receive our friends. As you can observe during your journey, the war brought much destruction to our country. Many who did not know Phnom Penh before and during the war, thought that Phnom Penh had been spared. Immediately after liberation, Phnom Penh did not look the way it does now. It was extremely filthy and was encumbered with networks of barracks and rolls of barbed wire. Now, we have removed, dismantled and cleaned up all this. Question Seven: The relations between Democratic Cambodia and socialist Yugoslavia are manifested in friendship and co-operation. What possibility do you see in speeding up and expanding this co-operation between our two friendly countries? Answer: Democratic Cambodia and Yugoslavia are friendly countries with a nonaligned political base and adhering to a policy of independence. On this basis, we entertain excellent bonds of friendship with each other in order to strengthen and expand all-round relations. Relations in various fields are improving in accordance with the possibilities of our two countries. On Cambodia’s part, we are striving to build our nation and maximize production so as to diversify trade with Yugoslavia. Today, we still cannot meet our Yugoslav friends’ demands for commercial and agricultural products. For instance, taking rubber as an example, we can produce it in reasonable quantities but the quality is not yet up to standard. Therefore, we will make every effort to improve the quality of our products in order to increase our trade. Regarding other fields, we will continue to maintain our relations in order to cooperate with each other as much as possible. It is our opinion that the trend in this co-operation is excellent, because it is based not only on economic or commercial exchanges but also on good political and friendly relations. Question Eight: When we return to our country, we will present to our readers and TV audience the successful outcome and the questions to which Democratic Cambodia is devoting its prime attention, as well as the portraits of the leaders of this friendly non-aligned country. Therefore, let us ask you this last question: Comrade Pol Pot, who are you? What is the past of the Comrade Secretary of the Central Committee of the Cambodian Communist Party? Answer: We would like to say that we are glad to answer this question. But, first let me tell you that ! myself, as well as the other leading comrades, are just a tiny part of the Cambodian national movement and Cambodian people’s revolutionary movement. The history of my life is as follows: I am the son of a peasant. When ! was young, I helped my parents in their labour. Later on, I stayed in a monastery, as was our custom, to receive an education. I lived there for six years, two years of which I spent in the monkhood. You are the first to know some of the details of my life. When 1 was older, I attended a primary school of general education. I completed the course at this school but failed to go on to a secondary school, as i did not sit the entrance examination. At that time, in order to attend a secondary school, you had to sit an examination. I therefore returned home and helped my parents till the land. Later 1 entered secondary school ;~nd finished the primary grade, i then switched to a secondary electrotechnical school where I studied for only just over a year. I studied many technical subjects, especially electricity. After obtaining a scholarship, I went abroad to study, l went to France. The first year there I made great efforts and became a fairly good student. Later, I joined the progressive student movement. As I spent most of the time on struggle activities, I did not attend many of the classes at school. I attended the technical school less during the last two years. The state then cut short my scholarship, and I was forced to return home, where I secretly joined the struggle movement in Phnom Penh. Afterwards, l joined the maquis against French colonialism. After the 1954 Geneva Agreement was signed I returned to the capital and resumed my underground activities. In public, I worked as a lecturer in geography, history and morals in a private school. The sphere of my underground work covered students, intellectuals, workers and peasants. In 1963, I could no longer stay in Phnom Penh. l again went into the maquis. This is why my name was not well known. Even Lon Nol’s secret service, which kept following me and knew my name, had no idea of my position. When I was in Phnom Penh, I was in charge of our work in the capital and also of co-ordinating it with that in the countryside. Thus, after leaving the capital in 1963, I returned to Phnom Penh on 24th April 1975. In 1960, at the national Party congress, I was elected to the Central Committee of the Party and as a standing member of the Central Committee. l became the Deputy Secretary of the Party Central Committee in 1961. Our Comrade Secretary was assassinated by the enemy in 1962. I was then appointed Acting Secretary. The second Party Congress was held in 1963. It elected me Secretary and subsequent congresses also retained me in this position. In the countryside I stayed mainly in the most remote areas. I travelled far and wide throughout the country. All these years in the resistance helped me to familarize myself not only with the Cambodian countryside, but also with the country’s entire economy, geography and topography. Our base area was in the minority region of north-eastern Cambodia. These minorities are quite familiar to me. They were extremely poor and had only loincloths. They experienced a shortage of salt every year. blow you cannot recognize them as minority people. They are wearing the same clothes and living in the same way as the rest of the people. They have plenty of rice, salt and medicine. Most of all, I want to tell you about my life in 1950 when l was a student abroad. During that summer vacation, I spent more than one month working on the Zagreb motorway. ] was able to learn about the Yugoslav people and, especially, Yugoslav folklore. Therefore, you can see that we have a longstanding bond of friendship and our relations of friendship were established years ago. This is all I have to tell you.

zaabittimov

It's hard to imagine two more different approaches to socialism than Yugoslavia and Cambodia, which is pretty evident in this interview. But they maintained cordial relations nonetheless. A relative of mine was a Yugoslav diplomat to North Vietnam and later Cambodia, so I would imagine this stuff went through him.

radiowarnerd

Thanks very much! This is an amazing document though it reminds me how extraordinarily boring Cold War rhetoric was, especially on the Communist side. It was as if most movements were trying to bore their target audience into compliance. Still, there's a certain piquancy to some of the questions, like this: "Respected Comrade Pal Pot: Within a short lime you will celebrate the third anniversary of your country’s liberation." Wanna bet, Comrade? the third anniversary of your country’s liberation. "

radiowarnerd

Henry, that is a great story. But, let's see, you got away with poking a Monet, whereas I was almost arrested for touching a railing. Somebody else got straight Oxycotone for the same abscess under root canal for which I received Ibuprofen. And, as my nine-year-old self would say: What. A. Gyp.

radiowarnerd

That's an excellent idea. I don't suppose you'd know a guest who could help us with that?

radiowarnerd

I'm going back to that BA museum to tell them that, reading from a Google-translated page of Spanish.

MS

Thank you very much for considering this. Sorry, I don’t have any suggestions for a scholar. I’m sure the War Nerd collective could help? My only request is that it be someone who is ‘objective’ and not just repeat the standard US lines” ‘we won all the battles and lost the war’ and ‘fanatical enemy’ narratives. I mean, the Vietnam War has been dominated by the US viewpoint. Even the most recent Ken Burns effort gave minimal time to Vietnamese experience. A subsidiary question is, could any Western force have fought for as long or just held their ground (let alone win), without any air support ?

Jimothy Realname

It's a shame you can't even get tylenol 3s. If you crush up a few T3s and dissolve them in water, then get the water really cold and pour it through a coffee filter, you can then drink the water because you just filtered out the acetaminophen. It tastes awful, but it works.

Mark Ames

Lemme just say, burned a lotta holes in my stomach lining on this T3/lemon juice/filter concoction. Worked some of the times, but you pay for it.

Charles Turner

Pol Pot's guerrillas did severely embarrass the North Vietnamese by liberating Cambodia before Saigon fell, and some at the time remarked that this had caused the Vietnamese to speed up their drive to chase out the US. With the podcast limiting the discussion of Democratic Kampuchea to what I would call the "Soviet view", the strategic significance of China's incursion feels incomplete, as it forced the Vietnamese to fight a two-front war. The Chinese view of DK's situation immediately prior is nicley encapsulated in Peking Review: https://www.marxists.org/subject/china/peking-review/1979/PR1979-07.pdf on pages 23-25. The Chinese statement concerning their crossing the border with Vietenam is in the next issue: https://www.marxists.org/subject/china/peking-review/1979/PR1979-08.pdf on pages 3, 8-14, 28. Slightly farther afield, but a nice frame to the limited nature of China's action is Tanzania's incursion into Uganda just a few months later. As explained by Nyerere, there were "two wars" going on, one to protect Tanzania's border with Uganda, and another to unseat Idi Amin. https://www.marxists.org/subject/china/peking-review/1979/PR1979-16.pdf page 29 "Uganda Provisional Goverment Formed". https://www.nytimes.com/1979/03/28/archives/tanzania-reports-threat-by-libyans-to-declare-war-outcome-of-coup.html