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Radio War Nerd #293 — The Forever Analogy: Saigon vs Afghanistan (Patreon)

Published:
2021-08-27 05:52:52
Imported:
2026-06
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Content

Recorded: August 23, 2021

We compare two US puppet regime collapses — South Vietnam vs Afghanistan — to see if there's anything to all the analogies you see being tossed around. 

Map:

*South Vietnam military zones

*PAVN's offensive in Central Highlands: Ban Me Thuot, Pleiku, retreat

*Fall of Saigon

Total time: 1:42:11

Direct link to this episode here 

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Comments

Casey Westerman

On "The Deer Hunter," there were critics at the time who saw the film for what it was. Pauline Kael, who liked a lot of the movie, wrote this: "It’s part of the narrowness of the film’s vision that there is no suggestion that there ever was a sense of community among the Vietnamese which was disrupted. ... The impression a viewer gets is that if we did some bad things over there we did them ruthlessly but impersonally; the Vietcong were cruel and sadistic. The film seems to be saying that the Americans had no choice, but the V.C. enjoyed it. " And here's Jonathan Rosenbaum, who hated it: "Try and imagine a boneless elephant sitting in your lap for three hours while you’re trying to think. It’s flabby beyond belief, convinced not only of its importance but its relevance to Americans (i.e., human beings) everywhere, and even winds up bleating a mournful rendition of 'God Bless America' in your ear, hoping that you’ll join in or at least have sympathy for its plight. Waving its snout in your face, it asks you to suspend whatever precious intelligence that you have in exchange for a good cry about what nasty old Vietnam has done to poor beleaguered America. "

Jon

Thoughts are with the whole Ames clan

calvin kilby

Really hope your mother pulls through, Mark.

Isaac Kalish

Afghanistan is the Terri Schiavo of wars

Mac

John's ICU/dead patient analogy is the kind of poetic, spot on stuff that got me into this show. Great episode

Nicholas Levis

Thanks to you I was moved to check out the ski jumper in the 'agony of defeat', Vinko Bogataj, and learned he did not die in the accident, as I had falsely thought.

etienne

oh! I just rewatched Starship Troopers and I noticed that there's a Fort Cronkite mentioned by passing, do you think it could be a reference to the Walter who famously lost the Vietnam war on behalf of the US?

Of course

That guy crashing and tumbling was my cue that Saturday cartoons were over.

Nicholas Levis

Right! Me too! As a kid, wasn't interested in the sports show, but I always watched the opening for The Agony of Defeat.

Nicholas Levis

I was such a sucker for it the first time, later realized the dreadful lie at its core. Dark arthouse predecessor to the later slew of 'save our POW' movies with Hackman, Norris, Stallone et al. They missed Apocalypse Now!

Ander Pierce

I'm wishing your mother a swift recovery

Crosley Querin

I never comment. 5 mins in. I wish the best for your mother, a good son crosses the continent for his mother.

JCC

Mark: wishing all the best for your mom

PW

Twas ABC's Wide World of Sports

Mark Ames

Thank you for doing the rare comment. You all are too kind.

Russell Meyer

re: John's wondering why racism in the academy targets different groups versus that amongst the regular yokelry - I'd guess the relative role and position of those people in the Empire (and what they personally get out of a given brand of racism) is important. The strategy of domestic racism against minorities is directed towards shoring up anxious whites who sit on the borderline of owning the air conditioning repair company and, shudder, working at the air conditioning repair company. Meanwhile the strategy of racism towards Slavs and China is coming from people who are economically above such concerns, and identify fully with the cause of the Empire - so their racism is strategically directed at justifying hostility towards the foreign enemies of the US.

Paul M

I don't always agree with Kael, but she's always worth reading and when she's right she's right.

Paul M

Apropos of nothing, I had the pleasure of serving on a jury with David Frum. It should probably not be a surprise he's just as much an asshole in that setting. He flat out tried ignoring the judge's instructions because he thought he was smarter.

Michael Hollitscher

that is…not even remotely shocking… I’m behind on episodes, good thoughts to your mom and brother, Mark!

Elmer Studd

Mark mentioning Obama’s brooding photo shoot has me thinking about another ghoulish Forever Pundit, David Brooks, who Obama vocally admired and appeared to take very seriously as a guide to policy while in office.