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Radio War Nerd EP #385 — Silvio Berlusconi from "Years of Lead" to Post-Fascism, feat. Annibale (Patreon)

Published:
2023-06-30 19:03:14
Imported:
2023-06
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Content

Guest: Annibale

Silvio Berlusconi, Italy's longest serving leader since Mussolini, just died, and we'll be damned if we're not going to get rwn favorite Annibale's take on Berlusconi's life & place in contemporary Italian politics & history, from Berlusconi's mysterious rise to riches coinciding with his unexplained role in the notorious P2 Lodge (think Gladio), to his transformation from Socialist Party patronage to reanimator of the Italian far-right...

RWN'S ITALY’S YEARS OF LEAD SERIES WITH ANNIBALE:

EP #134: Post-War Italy: Prequel to Years of Lead

EP #135: Years Of Lead, Part 1

EP #136: Years Of Lead, Part 2: Red Brigades & Aldo Moro

EP #139: Years Of Lead, Part 3: Ustica, Bologna Massacre & the Radical Implosion

EP #264: The 1970 Borghese Coup, Part One

EP #265: The 1970 Borghese Coup, Part Two

Total time: 1:21:57

Direct link to this episode's mp3 here 

Sound production by Telescope Audio Studios

Subscribe to Radio War Nerd at patreon.com/radiowarnerd

Check out the Radio War Nerd Merch store here!

*NEW!! Buy John Dolan's comic memoir "Pleasant Hell" now available in both audio and ebook format.

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Comments

AG

Absolutely yes! Mark was right. I loved warhammer 40k as a kid and spent tons of time at the game shop.

Anthony Schiappa

Was hoping for a Civil War and got an Annibale… I should play the lotto tonight!

NYCM&AHole

YEESSSSSS my wish came true re annibale and the bunga bunga man’s passing

jack flowers

sounds like annibale knows a few things about sex parties

J P 3

Great episode. The idea of Trump not being able to make the right enemies sounds exactly right. In Trump's case, my sense is that he's a spoiled trust fund kid who only knows one mode -- attack, attack, attack. It takes a degree of intelligence and political sophistication to know when to attack, and when to cut your losses. Berlusconi also constructed a political party from the ground up. Trump was able to capture the hearts of the GOP base, but he's never had the full loyalty of the party operatives and the major party donors (e.g. the real center of political power).

Discount Cagliostro

Grande Annibale. I was hoping that Berlusconi, Gelli, and P2 would be expanded on at some point after the Years of Lead eps and this really fit the bill. Any recommendations for books that focus more on this aspect, even in Italian?

Adam Boysen

Great to see Annibale back! Speaking of great guests, I'd love to see Matyszak back! I'm sure you guys would like it too, and it's probably hard to set up with how prolific he is, but I figured I'd give you the opportunity to tell him the fans are clamoring for a return. I've bought 7 of his books because of RWN!

A Sentient Katamari of Bad Life Decisions

Interesting that Annibale mentions that Forza Italia is a new party name in Italy. Not to contradict (obviously this little group didn't go anywhere) but this reminded me of a passage from Naples '44 by Norman Lewis: "To my surprise, definite occupation was found for me on my last visit to HQ: to investigate the motives of a clandestine political party operating in this area… Some are regarded as more purposeful and sinister including the one to be investigated, called Forza Italia!, which is suspected of Neo-Fascist leanings. My contacts in Benevento dismiss it with scorn as just another maniac right-wing movement backed by the landlords and the rural Mafia, run in this case by a half-demented latifundista who proclaims himself a reincarnation of Garibaldi."

David Andrews

Annibale is a national treasure. Great episode.

Gordon Schmidt

There's a great book I once read called Beating Berlusconi. It's based on this supposedly true story- it was the 2005 UEFA Champions League Final. The match was held in Istanbul, the teams; AC Milan vs Liverpool FC. Milan scores in the first minute and is up 3-nil by halftime. The game looks over, so one dejected Liverpool fan starts exploring the stadium. Somehow, he ends up in a very nice box where they're serving champagne and salmon. He decides to see how much he can get away with and watch the rest of the game there. Shortly thereafter, a very rich Italian man surrounded by much younger women sits down next to him. The man could obviously tell he was a Liverpool fan, and apparently wanted to get a little schadenfreude over the defeat. Then the game starts back up and Liverpool scores 3 times in a few minutes to tie the game. The Italian man becomes furious and demands the Liverpool fan leave. Turns out he had wandered into the AC Milan VIP box and the rich Italian man was none other than AC Milan's owner, then-Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi. Liverpool famously went on to hold MIlan to a draw and won the game on penalties- the match will always be known as "The Miracle of Istanbul", one of the greatest moments in the history of European football.

Hans Anders

But what SHOULD the left offer to the people? The international economy under the ‘rules based order’ is an arena in which countries survive and thrive by attracting capital at the cost of other countries. This is even more so in the eurozone. The traditional things left parties ran on mid 20th century are immediately struck down by international capital. The only option within liberal democracy is to smile for the camera and let people hope it’ll be different this time. I dislike neoliberalism as well, but there are some real structural reasons for it being so dominant.

Annibale

It's a well known story (after Lewis was translated in Italian becoming a darling of the right a lot thought Berlusconi took a hint from him) but it has been later discovered that "Forza Italia" was been proposed by team of copywriter who were working for Fininvest and Berlusconi choose from a list or proposal. Nobody knew in 1994 or Lewis story and it's possible that he made it up as a lot of what's in "Naples 1944", as he's the single source for the existence of something called "Forza Italia!" in 1944. This doesn't exclude however that it existed, as weird anticommunist groups popped up in the South as mushrooms after the arrival of the Allies. What's weird is that most were subsidized by the British intelligence and so it's unlikely Lewis didn't knew about this one

A Sentient Katamari of Bad Life Decisions

Thanks for elaborating! I find it fascinating how involved in anticommunist action British and US intelligence were in Italy even as early as '44.

a clash of purple

If that's true, then the alternative you provide has to be an explanation for why everything is terrible, plus a compelling vision for a different way of organizing the global economy. Dominant or not, neoliberalism is dying. There has to be something new and better to replace it once it's gone.

Andrew

Does Annibale have any links talking about Gelli being officially found guilty of the Bologna bombings? He mentioned an Italian magistrate blaming him for giving the order for the bombing, would be interested in reading up on that. Either way thank you for coming on and talking again, I still listen to the Years of Lead episodes on repeat lol.

Matt Payne

There's absolutely no reason a government can't provide Healthcare and post-secondary education. That wouldn't make them less competitive.

Hans Anders

Italy does both of those things to a large extent. I know it’s still missing in the US, but not in most European countries

Andrew

Also Mark and John, I listened to your recent interview w/ Seymour Hersh and I recently had the opportunity to take this picture. I have your guys' sticker on my water bottle and thought it was a funny opportunity lol. Here are two links in case one is broken: https://ibb.co/SQWzSy2 and https://pasteboard.co/f9Z7NShT4mvc.jpg. Thought you guys would get a laugh out of this considering recent events

Mark Ames

This is beautiful. Order Of Subotai medal. Thank you Andrew!

Xander Udo

Berlusconi had brought Ruud Gullit, Marco van Basten and Frank Rijkaard to AC Milan. So when he passed away recently, Gullit and Van Basten gave glowing eulogies, sharing memories of Berlusconi. Kind of painful to think that for a lot of people, he will be remembered as a colourful and comical person. I guess you can't really expect more from footballers. But its still painful to hear two childhood idols do it...

Peter Z

Great episode - it's so important to try to maintain rapport with non-leftists - especially when you can engage them on social issues via examples - and help draw-out their compassion (even if it's their own tribe). Berlusconi's switch from Left to Right made me wonder about Mussolini doing the same - and whether there were any similarities to be drawn?

Peter Z

Seize the phones!

Peter Z

Such a great point that Anni' makes - a much more sophisticated level of statecraft.

Peter Z

New episode material!

Peter Z

There's so many things to list: * (Better/Free) Healthcare and Education - as noted * Social housing, rent control, better social services, childcare * Cracking-down on multination tax avoidance to build local infrastructure * Better public transport / metro/high speed rail - maybe not as big a selling point in the US - decarbonisation/"de-oilification" also provides air quality and noise pollution benefits * Domestic manufacturing investment - especially clean energy advances * Greedflation crack-down - pricing controls, like rent control that police exceptional price rises that exceed inflation Given the amount of disentranced youth with contrasting rich Boomers et al, more social policies will be popular throughout the west.