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Guest: Carl Zha

We keep reading about "Chinese jihadis" — Uighurs from the west of China — fighting with Islamist militias in Syria, Afghanistan and elsewhere. Who are the Uighurs? The War Nerd talks to fellow history nerd Carl Zha — whose encyclopedic knowledge is almost frightening — going way, way back in history to understand where the Uighurs come from, and their relationships with China, Islam, and the Central Asia region.

Afterwards, the War Nerd discusses North Korea; the Qatari royals kidnapped while bustard-hunting; the Dortmund non-ISIS bomber, and Ames discusses the hidden story behind the Chechnya anti-gay crackdown (which he wrote about).

Time: 2:18:18

Direct link  to this episode's mp3 here.

Reading: "China Marches West: The Qing Conquest of Central Asia"  by Peter Perdue

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Comments

Shfifty_five

Just as an Tarim Mummy update since our understanding of human migration history is always changing: "A genomic study published in 2021 found that these early mummies (dating from 2,135 to 1,623 BCE) had high levels of Ancient North Eurasian ancestry (ANE, about 72%), with smaller admixture from Ancient Northeast Asians (ANA, about 28%), but no detectable Western Steppe-related ancestry.[7][8] They formed a genetically isolated local population that "adopted neighbouring pastoralist and agriculturalist practices, which allowed them to settle and thrive along the shifting riverine oases of the Taklamakan Desert."

Ghu Ribun

Yay! Carl is back!

Matthew C

I would love to hear more about china and the surrounding history of that area. As you guys said its hard to find a clear history of that region, so having Carl be able to walk through it as he does is amazing.

Richard Kim

Cool thing to note about how the Chinese fought off steppe cavalry was by bringing armoured wagons to use as a mobile defensive platform to shoot crossbows from and protect against enemy cavalry charges, which is not too different from the wagon forts used by the Hussites in the Hussite Wars. By the Ming period, the Chinese attached rudimentary gunpowder weapons onto wagons to fight off the Mongols.

Carl Zha

Haha, you know your Chinese history. Yes I forgot to mention the armoured wagons used against Xianbei cavalry. Definitely very Hussites like tactic. But mostly Chinese had to rely on strategy and terrain and sometimes weather. Because steppe composite bow has one crucial weakness! Hopefully I will get to talk about it in the next show!

sam_w_s

a note on the CH as Q. Its rendered as such in pinyin, the official romanization system of the prc, developed by zhou youguang shortly after the revolution. in addition to helping esl teachers order beer, it's used to teach chinese kids how to pronounce characters. maybe that explains the weird transliteration? zhou died this year at age 111, having written 10 books in the years since he turned 100.

Carl Zha

Actually I didn't find much use for pinyin when we had to learn them in school in the 80s, thought it was really redundant and pointless waste of time. But pinyin found its real use for Native Chinese Speakers in the digital age. Now I use pinyin exclusively to type out Chinese characters everyday.

Factory Troll

The "x" and "q" aren't spelled "sh" and "ch" because these aren't really the correct pronunciations, "x" for example is more like a Norwegian "kj", that's why you will see "sh" and "ch" being used together with x,q (as in Chongqing for example). I just guess x and q were chosen because they are the least used letters in English, and "c" ("ts" in pinyin) is sort of a dispensable double of "k".

Jibran Ludwig

Amazing episode! Please do part 2.

Carl Zha

I am from Chongqing. It used to be Romanized as Chungking. I tried to find out why the original creator of pinyin decided to go with x and q, but haven't found anything yet

Tupac Chopra

The fellow who invented pinyin, Zhou Youguan, died this past January at age 111. Here is a thoughtful column from Johnson, in the Economist, including some interesting background on the politics: <a href="http://www.economist.com/news/books-and-arts/21714970-coexistence-pinyin-and-chinese-characters-highlights-role-emotion" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">http://www.economist.com/news/books-and-arts/21714970-coexistence-pinyin-and-chinese-characters-highlights-role-emotion</a>

S.L.

Just finished a first listen of the discussion with Carl Zha; so much great information! I'll need to hear it again just to catch some of the things I didn't catch the first time. I am definitely looking forward to return visits to RWN by Carl. Thank you for doing this!!

Jordan Gomez

I have loved the two episodes with Carl and would love any more that RWN could make. If this was a multi part series I would listen to all of them and relisten to them after the series was done for.

Larry Dimes

I'd very much enjoy a part 2. I'd also love an episode on the Chinese Civil War, Dr. Dolan, I remember a War Nerd article from years ago that I read online comparing Hezbollah in 2006 to the PLA in the 1930's and why what worked in 2006 didn't work in the 30's. It really sparked my interest in the Chinese civil war.

Carl Zha

That will probably be a multi-part series. Just the Manchurian Campaign would be worth one episode

Bex Pico

I second a part 2! Also, Carl, how was the symbolic kinship of the Tang received among the Han? Did they embrace this kind of steppe-turn-chinese conversion?

Crazy B0nkers

In ISIS, the Chinese Uighur are the lowest of the lowest, a few rungs below black people. More often than not they are just given a knife and ordered to run at the enemy, or at best they will be left behind to blow themselves up to cover a retreat. Also these past few years, Uighurs who didn't cut the mustard in ISIS keep turning up at the door of the Legion Etrangere. Apparently nobody told them that the Legion checks every candidate with Interpol and the country of origin...

The Fakir (edited)

Comment edits

2026-09-07 15:00 btw.. when I was hiking in northern Ladakh (the Buddhist part of Indian Kashmir, bordering Tibet) locals mentioned the old silk road trail connecting Leh (capital of Ladakh) to the Tarim basin via the supposedly epic Karakoram Pass, and said the trail was easy to follow since it was lined with the bones of humans and pack animals who died along it ! Also, if one squints, one can see that Indian Kashmir abuts Xinjiang, around the infamous Siachen glacier. <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taklamakan_Desert" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taklamakan_Desert</a>#/media/File:Tarimrivermap.png
2017-04-25 10:42

Wyrd

It is interesting history. I am down for a part 2.

Dan Collins

Absolutely fascinating. Can't wait for a part 2.

Ben Dinsmore

i support a part 2 and probably the required part 3 as well.

The Fakir (edited)

Comment edits

2026-09-07 15:00 more detail on the flight of the youqi from the Hunas and into bactria, there to form the Kushan empire and conquer India. <a href="http://hwcdn.libsyn.com/p/9/9/f/99fbdd09ad1b1250/HOI_podcast_2_9.mp3?c_id=11255414&expiration=1493124763&hwt=f4a42e28b62d2ff18a1b202088ca6f8e" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">http://hwcdn.libsyn.com/p/9/9/f/99fbdd09ad1b1250/HOI_podcast_2_9.mp3?c_id=11255414&expiration=1493124763&hwt=f4a42e28b62d2ff18a1b202088ca6f8e</a>
2017-04-25 12:10

Igor Igorsson

This! It's a really fascinating subject I have to admit I feel fairly uninformed about.

Tupac Chopra

Carl, do you have more information on the theological beliefs of the head-smashing Buddhists of Central Asia. I'm curious about how their flavour of Buddhism worked. I know (with my very limited knowledge) that the Buddhism of the Irrawaddy and Tibetian regions are or have been quite warlike, so Central Asian Buddhism can't be entirely of it's own kind. TBH, this would make a great show -- historical warlike Buddhism, where it existed, and its philosophical, theological, and historical roots.

Tupac Chopra

@GaryBrecher Will The WarNerd Iliad be available in Kindle format? I've stopped buying paper books because they fill up my house too quickly. I would make an exception if I could get a signed copy, though. ;) Can this be arranged for your loyal subscribers?

Carl Zha

Chinese accepts Tang Imperial family's claim and consider them Han Chinese with nomad cultural characteristics. First three generations of Tang founders all married women of Tuoba (formerly) nomadic aristocracy. Han usually attribute Tang's Inner Asian characteristics (if they are aware of them) to Tang's maternal side. Since Chinese is a patrilineal society, children inherit standings from father side, it's consider no problem. Except Tang's claim of patrilineage is made up. But today's Han Chinese will argue with you until they are red in the face insisting that Tang patrilineage is really Han. I will just leave it at that.

Emilia Leese

Another smashing show. Carl is a legend. The breadth and depth of his knowledge, tying so much together. Man oh man. Utter delight. Also, same question as above about your Iliad translation.

Woke Bane

I want Carl Zha part 2 and probably part 3 as well

Willis McCumber

Perhaps an unpopular opinion: I was utterly lost through most of Carl's virtuoso performance, I'd like a second show but only if you start with the present and work backwards, rather than building from the distant past

Caitlyn

Please do a Pt II!!

Carl Zha

Karakoram Pass was abandoned in 19th century because of glaciation. During World War II, British send supplies to Nationalist China over Karakoram Pass to Yarkand . Many Uyghurs acted as porters and guide mule trains for this difficult journey. After Sino-India war of 1962, Karakoram Pass was closed for good.

Bex Pico

Thank Carl! Very interesting, it seems statecraft hasn't changed all that much over time and space.

xnfec

Great Show!! Very informative. I've come accross a couple of little known films that touch on these topics. Warriors of Heaven and Earth is an adventure set at the time when the Tang and the Turks were fighting for control of China and deals with the transport of Buddhist relics accross China. The other one is called Musa which maybe Korean but deals with the collapse of the Yuan empire. There is a fight between some Koreans and some Mongols over a princess. What is interesting to me (now) is that the Mongols refer to themselves as the sons of the Blue Wolf. I've always heard that the Tang were more open to outside influences than other dynasties and their genesis may explain why. The Mongols being buddhist that far back seems odd compared with what I've read elsewhere though, (limited admittedly). In in his book "The History of the Mongols", Michael Prawdin asserts that the Mongols of Ghengis Khans time were sky worshipers. He later states that the Mongols only ceased to be a threat when the Eastern Mongols adopted yellow-hat Buddhism - which I assume was quite late on.

realBriannaWu

I think this is the best episode you guys have ever done. Can't wait to hear more from Carl Zha in the future. Really smart dude.

MS

Please do a Part Three.

Nathan McClellan

Part 2 needed, great stuff from a long time WN follower (first time patron of the pod!)

Patrick Coughlan

Carl is a beast....but dammit, I kept having a WTF moment throughout this...Had to replay many times, but a good podcast.

Dan Shechter

Part 2, then 3, because we all know how it will go down!

Dan Shechter

By the way, I was the one who made the "allies" comment, point taken, and I shouldn't have used that term. I was just annoyed, I guess, at hearing the same arguments, points and counter points two shows in a row (literally end 79, start of 80), with nothing substantial happening in between. Apologies for pointing a finger needlessly

Carl Zha

Blue is a mistranlation from Chinese. Chinese word 苍 could mean blue, green and grey. Same with word 青 could mean blue, green or black! Hence Guan Yu's weapon 青 Dragon Crescent Sabre is either blue dragon or black dragon! A lot depend on the context of use. Here clearly, Chinese translation is that of Mongolian word Borte Chino (Chono) which means Grey Whitish Wolf. People unfamilar with Chinese could easily make this mistake. Since word 苍 in this context is rarely used anymore, even Chinese people can mistake it to mean blue.

xnfec

Thanks for clearing that up. Would you say that the Mongols are Turks?

Carl Zha

No. But Ancient Turko-Mongol tribes have an intertwined and very close history together

xnfec

Genghis Khan's wife was called Borte (I assume that's the wolf part). Is that a real name or is it symbolic?

Carl Zha

Borte means Grey

Patrick Conner

This was really good. I'll cast my vote for more.

dmspra08

I think I needed to be in front a computer/taking active notes to really parse and retain what was said. Zha is a treasure, for sure, and I support a part 2 but - hoo boy - hard listening required.

dmspra08

I understood what you meant. I interpreted 'allies' as folks like Max Blumenthal, Rania Khalek and more on the anti-interventionist left.

Vincent Chiu (edited)

Comment edits

2026-09-07 15:00 Yeah, definitely need another one to flesh out the story. I'm finding the history of central asia super fascinating. The brief mention of the Achaemenid Greeks &amp; Buddhism blew my mind. 400-600BC in that region is a blank spot in my , and I suspect many others, knowledge
2017-05-02 20:34 Yeah, definitely need another one to flesh out the story. I'm finding the history of central asia super fascinating. The brief mention of the Achaemenid Greeks & Buddhism blew my mind. 400-600BC in that region is a blank spot in my , and I suspect many others, knowledge

Yeah, definitely need another one to flesh out the story. I'm finding the history of central asia super fascinating. The brief mention of the Achaemenid Greeks & Buddhism blew my mind. 400-600BC in that region is a blank spot in my , and I suspect many others, knowledge

michiganpizza

yes, part 2 and 3 and 4 ... please. in fact, a by carl with war nerd commentaries! also, your listeners greatly value your rational skepticism - something entirely missing in anglo mainstream media.

radiowarnerd

Wow! That's great detail. I'd like to read more about this--can you recommend a source?

radiowarnerd

That's a great idea. I bet Carl could do that too.

radiowarnerd

Interesting. Hope we can have you on the show soon.

radiowarnerd

Thanks! I'll post this on my Facebook page.

radiowarnerd

That is a good idea. I will forward this to Carl!

radiowarnerd

Yes it will be available in e-formats. I will see what I can do about signed copies!

radiowarnerd

Thanks! Yes, it will be available in e-formats.

radiowarnerd

Yeah, we worried about that. There is just so much there and it is hard to stick to the main point. Maybe starting with the present would be a good way to clarify things.

radiowarnerd

Yeah, the wolf detail is odd. Seems more closely linked to Turks than Mongols. Could the screen writer have conflated Turk and Mongol?

radiowarnerd

Thanks, but I have said so many stupid things since then--things that are still echoing in my head and causing me to wake up groaning--that I don't actually remember the comment about allies.

radiowarnerd

Yes, we are going to work on making the huge amount of info more manageable for listeners.

Crazy B0nkers

I would highly recommend the Chapo Trap House podcast episode with an American communist, Brace Belden aka Pisspiggranddad, who fought with YPG in Syria. I believe he came back, so you may want to have him on the show (<a href="https://goo.gl/5sj9RY)." rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">https://goo.gl/5sj9RY).</a>