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Folklore Re- Fathoming (Patreon)

Published:
2025-05-04 01:35:51
Edited:
2025-05-04 01:44:08
Imported:
2026-09
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Hi besties, firstly... thank you so much for your beautiful comments on our last video. Your love and support always brightens our day SO much and we are forever grateful for how kind and caring you are 🫶🏼 Todays video we deep dive back into folklore and talk about its connections to TTPD! Hope you enjoy and can't wait to read your thoughts ☺️

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Comments

Sydney

Yesssss I needed thisssss

Cam

my show is ON

isabel

I HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR THIS IS HAVE SO MUCH TO SAY

Melanie

I think the vault lyric in guity as sin simply means she’s keeping her feelings hidden inside her (“locked away”) rather than screaming it at the top of her lungs for the world to hear. Hence why its in “lowercase”

Rebecca

Yes! 🫶🏼

lilymae

i’ve got my snack i’m locking in

Dori McDowell

"Swirled you into all of my poems" 😎 Fresh Out The Slammer

Madison

my reddit also put me on the snark taylor reddit (the taylor and travis one) and it was frightful! really made me realize that her biggest haters are the people who pay the most attention to her and feel like she owes them something.

Meg👢

This is my Superbowl😂

Aloha Record Sargent

I think her "my life finally makes sense" speech is connected to Question? because that song is about Matty Healy., and he knew it was about him, because he added it to the pre-show setlist for his own tour. Also, recall that the "my life finally makes sense" speech was made in the pouring rain -- at the "rainiest rain show that ever rain showed." I believe this is referenced in Fortnite MV (she is in the rain protecting him) and more notably, in The Black Dog: "How you don't miss me, In the shower, And remember, How my rain-soaked body was shaking."

Ran

Blessed with another chats and reacts video this week

Christine Violet

There is a lot of train references, in the 1975 song About You, and also in Cardigan, which connects to I Look in People’s Windows…

Eve

Everyone stfu my favourite show is on

Sadie

I fully believe “the 1” is named such instead of “the one” because “the 1” is The 1975 without 975

Leander

Emily, as one Reddit girl to another, I see you. A girl just needs to know.

Cassy

literally thought i was the only one!!! i was so mad. such a stupid way for people to waste their time

Toriannexoxo

Just fathomed this…: In question? She says “did you leave her house in the middle of the night?” In the smallest man “you were gone by the morning” 🧐

Becky

Also in regards to The 1; The 1975, in their song "Robbers" have the line Now if you never shoot, you'll never know And if you never eat, you'll never grow This sounds very similar to: And if you never bleed, you're never gonna grow

YunWon

Folklore ❤️❤️❤️

Jenna Bolmgren

There are a lot of hints in the chats during LPSS.

andria

“if you never bleed you’re never gonna grow” is a major 1975 lyric connection! the first two lines in verse 2 of their song robbers are “now if you never shoot you’ll never know. and if you never eat you’ll never grow.” this album came out in 2013 (before they met) but def feels like an intentional lyric!!

Cassy

i have a theory that between 1989 and rep taylor was writing about matty so perhaps those songs are in the rep vault because she’s ready to (or was at the time of writing guilty as sin?) to release those songs now she’s no longer with joe. out of respect for him she probably kept them in the vault at the time but now it’s over so why not? but i wouldn’t be surprised if those songs stay in the vault forever and that she’s done putting out songs about him. cant wait for rep tv i know no matter what those songs are gonna be GOOD. i agree i just need more about how she was feeling during that time, ngl hoping rep tv is like 30 songs 😅

Jordan Conger

I have always taken illicit affairs as the other woman singing, so the man is the married one. Interesting to see y’all consider it both ways though!

Aloha Record Sargent

Some people have speculated that Augustine might be Halsey (who Matty dated right after Taylor back in 2014/2015). And of course Halsey had a lot of iconic songs about Matty, and Halsey and Taylor became good friends later on. Halsey literally tweeted "I would die for Taylor Swift" on folklore release day.

Aloha Record Sargent

I want to emphasize that this is complete and total speculation! Not rooted in any kind of fact.

isabel

i have been heavily relating to illicit affairs as of recent due to just memories of a past relationship, and whatever feelings she was feeling/going through when writing this song HURTS so much don’t call me kid, don’t call me baby???? someone who acted so much like yours, but then turns out to be fake/not real my girl was in her feellllls whoever this may be about

Jenna Bolmgren

I always thought illicit affairs was so Carrie and Big (SATC) coded, but after Midnights and TTPD I think there is more truth/reality to it. Plus how epic it was (after august!!!) on The Eras Tour?! The “my husband” and “your wife” lyrics from Fortnight are intriguing from this perspective too.

Gabrielle

What category did Taylor put mastermind in? Denial? Bargaining? I don’t remember. Maybe that would give us more clues about who it’s about / where her mind was at. I also think she means she’s a mastermind in her career / getting people to like her

Katy

Also for the line "you meet some woman on the internet and take her home" in the 1, the 1975 released a single in April 2020 called If You're Too Shy (Let Me Know) that's all about having an online relationship! I wouldn't be surprised if Taylor heard it before or during the time she wrote the 1.

isabel

the feelings in illicit affairs is feelings that seem to only come from people who you love that can’t commit to you, and the bridge definitely brings that out you showed me colors you know i can’t see with anyone else you taught me a secret language i can’t speak with anyone else this song really brings me back to a time in my life where I was the bad guy, but at the same time, was in the feelings of you’re losing me w a past relationship and all the while, reconnected with a past fling who thought was the one back then my mind has been a maze hearing songs in all of these albums connecting things to ME and god her songs are absolutely amazing and mind blowing and helps you realize your emotions that you didn’t know back then i’m fried so sorry if im goin crazy

Allie

"And now you're mine" -> "you'll find you were never not mine, you're mine" 🫠🤯🤯🤯

Aubrey McMichael

fingers crossed that a reaction to your first folklore video is coming next ❤️❤️

Aloha Record Sargent

The "barbed wire" lyrical connection between Invisible String and Tolerate It is DEEPLY CONCERNING.

isabel

fling was also someone i would ruin my life for to be with him if he really wanted me. i can’t say that taylor was in a situation i had been in, but these feelings that she has me in when hearing this song and a few others, crazy

Gabrielle

Kinda cute that she says tossing Pennie’s in the pool… a penny is 1 cent. The 1, lol

isabel

the verses are definitely thoughts of someone who feels wrong but at the same time in love

Gabrielle

Also Emily I hope you’re doing ok about your breakup. Sending love 🫶✨

Gabrielle

I think when she was writing the 1, I would assume that she was in the bargaining stage. When we look back on a relationship and have regrets or fantasies about that person, we’re in a bargaining stage, like she says it would’ve been fun if you would’ve been the one, and especially in the bridge, she talks about persisting and resisting to ask this person that big question of should we have stayed together or been together. I think when she put them into categories, she was already dating Travis and had already been through the relationship with Matty and saw it go up in flames, and saw him for who he really was. So then there was an acceptance.

Roas

also in cardigan, we need to remember the original lyrics (on the demo version) which don’t tie at all at the love triangle but can tie so much more to the Matty situation

Gabrielle

Also, the 1975 has a song called mine 👀

Cassy

i believe the feelings she expresses in illicit affairs were real to her. i don’t think she was actually writing about an affair that had happened. girly was in lockdown she was fantasizing she was romanticizing every thing to make her feel better !!! the album is called folklore for a reason. i really feel like illicit affairs and ivy are not factual cheating songs. she just turned her feelings into that sort of story. she probably did feel like she was cheating daydreaming and writing songs about him. i really think she wrote guilty as sin? at the same time or about that time as well. it’s interesting as well illicit affairs is plural.. she is probably thinking about multiple relationships and that’s why she says “a million little times”

Debzie3

In the long pond sessions she talks about this is me trying and she says she's been thinking about addiction and how some people are trying to be better every day....that sounded Matty coded listening back to it and it and hurt my brain

Linds K

Let’s also remember that she mashed up “this is me trying” with “Labyrinth” in Gelsenkirchen Night 2 👀

Allie

"And you'd be standing in my front porch light" -> "Now, pretty baby, I'm running To the house where you still wait up, and that porch light gleams"

Gabrielle

Emily, that was such a smart insight what you said about how August is Taylor in reality and Betty is Taylor in her fantasy. Betty is the version of Taylor that ends up with Matty in this fantasy, but August is the reality that a lot of us face where we don’t end up with the person that we want… Or some sort of Situationship, that August the song talks about. I think that’s why August hits so hard and resonated with so many people because most of the time our delusions don’t come true. And maybe deep down Taylor always knew that she wasn’t Betty, she was August, in this situation with Matty. And I think that’s another reason Taylor spoke in the long Pond sessions about having empathy for August, because she knows exactly how that feels, and she lived it. We’ve all lived it.

Aubrey McMichael

i’m of the belief that taylor gave joe wayyyy more writing credit than he deserved

Dori McDowell

She mashed up 'I Hate It Here' with 'The Lakes' 😎

Cat Tulo

I kinda always thought her saying "I hit the ground running each night, I hit the Sunday matinee" is just her way of saying she's staying busy and living a good life, even though she's not with "the 1." She's going partying on Saturday night AND she's going to the matinee the next day. The whole song kinda feels like she's catching up with this person after not seeing them for a long time, and she's almost playing up how "okay" she is without him.

Stephanie Phelps

Can we talk about how funny it is that she refers to MH in relation to film/movies but Joe was a literal actor? But she never seems to reference him in a movie way in her songs, it’s too funny actually

Jeebs

I think Joe's depression was probably a LOT worse than anyone could imagine "I don't want another shade of blue" (obviously) "you're not sure if he wants to be there" (I always took this WAY darker than just being in a relationship)

Cassy

invisible string is 1000% a joe song but you cannot convince me that it isn’t her trying to make herself believe that fate had brought them together so she may as well tough it out and try to see the positives. “isn’t it just so pretty to think?” i really think she was trying to romanticize the hell out of any scraps he was giving her atp. i listened to invisible strings A LOT when i first got together with my bf but i cant anymore now i know he’s the one because it doesn’t feel authentic anymore im sorry taylor 🥲

Giulia

Why would she? She’s never done that before with any boyfriends she’s not a 17 year old this is her life work she wouldn’t put him just for the sake of it.

Courtney McAlexander

On the hoping and wishing front, the 1975 has a song called “tonight I wish I was your boy” on their April 2020 album

Aubrey McMichael

i just think he’s too boring to have come up with anything more than a couple words or an idea and it was her brilliance that formed the songs. i mean she was pretending that everything was still wonderful with them for years while writing and releasing these songs. who’s to say the inclusion of him being a “songwriter” wasn’t part of the facade?

Courtney McAlexander

Which includes lyrics like: She told me, "Some things just take time, How can you be sure if you won't try?" The time connection in Peter

Rose Ellen

It's so wild that in her long pond bit about hoax she literally called her relationship with Joe a "fractured situation" and we didn't realise at the time 😮

Tess7

Oh my, I have so much to say….I fear I could write a book lol I will say this- I really enjoyed this refathoming. You made some great points to ponder on 😊 I think the line about chase 2 girls, lose the one could be about Matty dating Halsey in 2015. It wasn’t confirmed by them, but they were seen together so much back then. Taylor and Halsey seem to be friendly now…Tay sent her TTPD merch - I bet Halsey loved Smallest Man lol love you chickens! 🫶

Enzo Reis

If there's a Matty Healy song on the reputation vault would make sense since she dated him after the 1989 album release, but you know we didn't had songs about that time. Only in TTPD with Peter/Chloe Or Sam but it's like looking back with the full perspective of it instead of that period of time perspective.

Lindsey Metcalfe

RE: Rep possible song inspo... I'm at least half-convinced that Dancing With Our Hands Tied is a Matty song at this point. The lyrics don't make sense for Joe, Tom, OR Calvin for various reasons, but they could totally fit a narrative of her and Matty (or maybe someone else we don't know about) and timing just not working out for some reason.

Astoria

I think Cardigan, Cowboy Like Me, Peter, smallest man & loml have so many connections. You’re a bandit like me, eyes full of stars // I thought I was better safe than starry-eyed // was any of it true gazing at me starry-eyed Taylor & the cowboy (Matty) finding/placing things under their bed: 1. The old cardigan 2. The cowboy puts his boots there 3. Smallest man hid the metaphorical gun there Who’s gonna stop us from waltzing back into rekindled flames // and you asked me to dance and I said dancing is a dangerous game // dancin in your Levi’s // Dancing phantoms on the terrace And you’d be standing in the front porch light // But the woman who sits by the window has turned out the light Those Cardigan/Peter lyrics always felt like the same part of a story, just different perspectives, before and after. Before with hope (Cardigan) and after with realization and acceptance (Peter). And you deserve prison, but you won't get time —> he’s a cowboy who swindled her and she knows he’ll get away with it because shes a cowboy too (and now she’s found out, NOT like her but actually worse) & of course: A con man sells a fool a get-love-quick scheme When you are young, they assume you know nothing // we were just kids babe They just ghosted you Now you know what it feels like // I knew you'd haunt all of my what-ifs // Still alive, killing time at the cemetery // Dancing phantoms on the terrace

Samantha

There’s a Zane Lowe radio interview Matty did in Feb 2020 where he mentions that he wants to pitch an acoustic/“post rock Joni Mitchell” project to Taylor. Obviously I think the genre shift of folklore has way more to do with her meeting Aaron more than anything else but it is interesting timing

Mly

Yes, I also believe that it is a song that talks about relationships because on the Eras tour it was combined with Labyrinth and at the end it said and trying to fall in love again 🤯

Bethany Stone

I desperately need to know how she explained these songs to Joe at the time

Pippa

I think "hit the Sunday matinee" just means she has her shit together!

ton

Thanks for this, really interesting. A few random thoughts…. This is me trying could’ve her writing from MH perspective knowing his battles. Esp V1 “didn’t know if you’d care if I came back”… links to “the one”screen etc Reminded that TheOne replaced invisible string on tour Ironically MH struggled much more with her fame than JA ever did tbh

Leijette Riopel

The love triangle doesn’t have to be interpreted as one specific person fixed into each role. I think that Taylor herself is at various times all three people in the love triangle. In each song, she is putting herself into the main character of that song’s perspective, because she can relate so much to each of them. In cardigan she is expressing Betty’s feelings about how James treated her, but also clinging to her certainty that their love is meant to be. In August, she is treating the person in the role of “the other woman” with so much compassion - recognizing that it would be sad and terrible to love someone who is ultimately fated to end up going back to someone else. And in Betty, she casts herself as James. If you draw comparisons to Chloe or Sam when she expresses regret for her part in what happened between herself and Matty back when they were younger and why it hadn’t worked out - that she feels she deserted him, that she couldn’t handle his addiction issues. Maybe at the time she was writing folklore she regretted having walked away and just leaving it up to the “goddess of timing” to help things work out - believing that “it was just goodbye for now.” I can really imagine her seeing herself at least part of the time as James - having regrets and owing apologies for her own careless or unkind past behavior, which she can blame on youth and naïveté - again, see Chloe or Sam - but also, being sure of her belief and intention that she would ultimately end up back with the person she believes is meant to be with her.

ton

“I’m here in your doorway”…V1 def feels MH coded from his perspective as a person with addictions for me

ton

Also a million little times in illicit affairs mirrors a million times in loml

Sanell

Nah, I’m out

LeafyJean

Are you guys going to do a lover and rep refathoming??

Lia

Another thing about The 1 is that when she began dating Matty , she changed the Eras Tour setlist from Invisible String, which is obviously a song about Joe, to The 1…

Louise

“i hit the sunday matinee” makes me think of midnights. her up at night metaphorically watching back the films (memories) of past relationships and experiences. but the film of her relationship with matty was never made so she can’t watch it. (also maybe unrelated but note: you cinephile in black and white)

Louise

also note that “midnight matinee” is a term that’s common used despite being an oxymoron (because matinee means daytime show)

Heidi Muller

Matty has a song called Robbers released in 2013. In Reputation Taylor's sings "He knew i was a robber" so I believe there are songs about him not only in the vault.

Louise

the “i’ll miss you on the train” line in about you makes me think of both willow and i look in peoples windows

Leijette Riopel

Yes!!! I am absolutely certain that she views that rain show as some kind of pivotal moment in what went down between them. Maybe that speech (where she compares the show to performing in a shower!!) when she said her life finally made sense scared him away and he ghosted her shortly after that?? I don’t think we’ll ever know for sure, but SOMETHING happened then - her in the rain on top of the phone box in the fortnight video, the lyrics about him not missing her rain-soaked body in the shower from the black dog, something to do with that rain show is all tangled up in so much of TTPD, I am sure of it.

Aloha Record Sargent

I posted about this, too @Tess! Matty and Halsey definitely dated; she wrote many songs about it! And Halsey and Taylor are definitely very good friends. Halsey even tweeted “I would die for Taylor Swift” on Folklore release night.

Heidi Muller

Matty had an album called A brief inquiry into online relationships.

Louise

in the long pond session taylor says the first verse is a person with mental health issues (ie taylor) and the second verse is someone with addiction issues (ie matty)

Kiki

Side note: for anyone who doesn't know, Reddit has a lot of "snarker" communities, which are just hate groups filled with people who are there just to mock and complain about certain people all day and that's what poor Em was thrown into 😄😄 The communities can have very unassuming names so I guess the algorithm can't tell when it's a group of losers or not. That Travis and Taylor one is pretty well known since many of their members are annoying on twitter too. I felt like I knew exactly where that story was headed when she said she gets auto sorted into groups 😅

Heidi Muller

Taylor mentions the 1 in a few of her songs . Fresh out the slammer* To the one who says I'm the girl of his American dreams* in TTPD she says* takes my ring off my middle finger and puts it on the 1*

Ally ❤️

I think that Joe made her feel like an old cardigan… maybe Harry too, and Calvin…

Louise

oh shit and i just connected “you’re a flashback in a filmreel on the one screen in my town” = “i hit the sunday matinee. you know the greatest films of all time are never made” it’s just another way to say that he lives in her memories that she replays. this song feels to me almost like an imagined back and forth between them. like them both telling each other “this is me trying” and her relating their two scenarios (because he’s a cowboy like her. her twin etc)

Heidi Muller

When she says Hoax has an x .....as in an ex lover possibly?!

charlotte

The same thing happened to me with the taylor and travis sub reddit. I had to block it because it was always top of my notifications 🙄

Jenny

She said he wrote the piano melody on exile and Bon Iver’s entire verse - I really don’t believe that’s a lie

Sara

hi guys, thank you for all the insights 🩷 I just wanted to give you a book recommendation: heartbreak is a national anthem by rob sheffield. He is a music journalist and gives a lot of great insights into what musicians have impacted Taylor. for example Sweet Nothing has a direct link to other artists. and he is also a swiftie and makes the sweetest references to lyrics. I can highly recommend it especially to two music fans as the both of you are ☺️ I think it will help you fathoming even more 🫶🏻

Emma

I’ve recently been thinking about the long pond sessions and that conversation Taylor has where she says blatantly that in her head Betty and James end up together. And I think from understanding that cardigan is about Matty, that’s a lot

Sarah

I reckon Emily's phone is serving up anti Tay/Travis sub-reddits because it doesn't understand how we use the word "offensive"!!

izzy 🪷

I'm sure someone said this already if you type in "the 1" into spotify "the 1975" comes up right away, because it's halfway typed so it's like she was starting to say it. And she wanted him to know that, it was a little clue as to who the song was about.

Micra

Illicit affairs mentions drugs and we know she associates drugs with Matty and prison with Joe so it might be her dreaming about having an affair with Matt and that precludes to Guilty as Sin maybe?

Jasmine

when she mentions the 'someone who felt like family' in the hoax section she could also be talking about Karlie Kloss- 'the words of a sister'- we know she felt like family to Taylor but was ultimately betrayed and the relationship was a hoax

Anna Nikoline Sørensen

Ohhh Emily… the look in your eyes in the beginning of the video just says it all. I have been going through a breakup the last 6 months, and I know that look. I hope you will be okay🫶🏻

izzy 🪷

Saw someone say that the triangle could be Taylor as James, because she's the one who allegedly had the "affair" or was emotionally cheating at least with Matty, on Joe. So that would make Joe Betty and Matty August. Aka Matty is "the other woman." And Taylor would be James because she's named after James Taylor.

lucinda 🪐

I think Taylor IS the love triangle!!!! She is/has been all three people. It’s obvious how she’s been Betty. She’s also been James if she’s been thinking about another man whilst being in a relationship and how she feels like she’s made mistakes and she’s been Augustine again I think that’s obvious. She is the love triangle and she is a genius for writing that.

ton

Don’t forget Jack said writing TTPD was great fun. So even though it’s about sad times I think she enjoyed writing the album and getting it out tbh.

Lou

Not even half way through the video but your ability to analyse and discuss and fathom is why I came onto Patreon in the first place!! IMMACULATE ✨✨

ton

I’m not sure if anyone fathomed whatthe secret messages in the lyric videos for folklore were but will flag that the songs with the reverse arrows on ts and kc (Taylor Swift and kitty cat) were The One, Cardigan,Exile, Illicit Affairs and Mad Woman… just saying 🤣 maybe they’re the poems being swirled in. Maybe the messages weren’t for us!

Tyler

Illicit affairs to me is just inspired by a binge watch of Sex and the City and no one can convince me otherwise

Eirini

About Question: I struggle to think that it’s about Matty because it starts with the OOTW lyric I remember! And then some day it hit me: what if this was kind of their song? Maybe she wrote it about Harry but she had a fathoming after it came out with Matty and they kind of made it their song in some way? Maybe they had a memory that he said he loved that song or sth? Some random detail that we just don’t know and it’s a clue only for him to know that Question is about him ?

Kara Mills

You should do a follow up video reading/reacting to comments to see what others think

Marie-France C. Lombardo

I absolutely need to know how HOW she managed to write all these songs about matty whilst being with joe. How did they talk about them? What did he think they were about? How did she sell them to him? HOW do you write question, bejeweled, the 1, etc without having to do some explaining to your current bf? It drives me crazy, i need to know. 😂

Sarah

Yes omg it's def giving Carrie and Big for sure!!

Sarah

Whoaaaa what a fathoming that's genius!! My mind is blown 🤯

Cheese King of Denmark

I think one of the main reasons why there's such a leap in between Folklore and Evermore when it comes to the Joe and Matty stuff is because of Folklore's massive success. Joe doesn't like the fame and attention and both him and Taylor thought she was at the end of her career as a mega star, but the Folklore explodes onto the scene and all that changes, and Joe's expectation of only having to tolerate the worst of the fame for a short time evaporated. I don't think he'd deal very well with that, especially if he was already very "blue" for months or years leading up to it. So he stopped throwing those blankets on the barbed wire and so on, leading Taylor to begin the process of having had enough and truly wanting something or someone different.

lucinda 🪐

I had this epiphany last week and seeing this video today has confirmed it for me even more!! At least in my mind I’d like to think this

Johanna M

The Joe color progression: golden - blue - grey

Gianluca

finallyyy 😭❤️aaah 🫶🏽

Kamila

oh my gosh I've never fathomed the tunnel references, I was always so confused about what tunnel really meant in fresh out the slammer but this makes so much sense now 😭 even the line after 'handcuffed to the spell i was under' because as she said in red era, she couldn't be with someone who needs tunnels to leave a restaurant with her, but HE convinced her for so long that that's what's best and that's what she should want to. I AM DECEASED

Sarah

I just checked and I don't see mastermind on any of the 5 stages of grief playlists at all! That's interesting that she left it off, maybe it just didn't fit neatly into any one category.

Margaret Aisenbrey

I think illicit affairs is about her and matty from when she knew him in 1989 era. They weren't public about it and THAT'S the illicit part of the love affair. Not that they're necessarily cheating.

Giel

regarding the love triangle: Taylor is James (she is named after james taylor, hence why she came up with the name james). This also explains why she was so passionate about james being "a fool" in longpond. Betty is Matty (the names are very similar), since taylor was hoping shed end up with matty which is why its so offensive she plainly said Betty and james end up together in longpond. August is Joe which makes it even more crazy that Taylor called a very long relationship "just a summer love" to play it off to matty. August is the one who is being used by James; Taylor subconsciously knew this was the case with Joe which is why she wrote august

Brooke

they used to play about you where I would work and I always felt the need to dissect the song to my coworkers lol. anyways now I can't listen to it without thinking about my old job haha

Giel

There is no doubt in my mind that Taylor wrote (parts of)"Betty" as "Matty" and changed the word "matty" to "betty" because she could not release it that way

Chelsea Clark

This might be controversial, but I think that Matty and Taylor were friends a lot longer than 1989. I have a head cannon that Matty snuck into her Tumblr DMs back in the day. That's why there is so much high school/kid/friend references to him in her music

CB

Helena

I think Taylor might be Betty August and James at the time! She could have created these 3 different characters based on the different feelings she felt regarding the situation with matty and Joe

Stacy Schindler

So this it totally off topic but your discussion on the connection between ivy and loml reminded me of a thought I had the other day on loml and Glitch being connected. I know people, including here, have talked about Glitch actually being a Matty song and I think I’m convinced. Glitch: Nights are so starry Blood moon lit Must be COUNTERFEIT loml: Dancing phantoms on the terrace Are they second hand embarrassed That I can’t get out of bed Cuz something COUNTERFEIT’s dead

Stacy Schindler

Funny you say this. I was listening to This Love the other day and thought wow, this sounds so much like a Matty song now knowing what we know but figured if it was on 1989 it couldn’t be because she would have written it way too soon. It probably was still too soon for it to be about him but I guess you never know!

Kiki

We didn't know about Matty back then, and bought the 'fictional & storytelling only' What makes you think Joe knew a different explanation?

Moonlit Nomad

OMG I had to mute that subreddit because the ENTIRE thing is just taylor hate... I dont get it

Annika 📍Melb, AU

I think she’s giddy from the wine 🍷 and socializing finally after isolation too 🤣

Jenny

Isn't 'karma is the guy on the screen' about that?

Starbuck1234!

Oh, i was banned from Swiftly Neutral. Someone cursed me out for defending Taylor, I did not do the same or attack anyone. But, they are just looking for Swifties on there to toss off. It’s really a hate community. It should be renamed TaylorSwiftSnark but I thikn that was taken. The “Neutral” is a disguise because they don’t want Reddit to think they are a Snark community, but it really is.

Geneva

Oh interestinggggg

Rodrigo

reputation only has the initial lower case letter in its album title, not in the songs, the whole tracklist of folklore and evermore are in lowercase, so for me it refers to folkmore because the songs are locked and will never be released

Julieta

“If you never bleed, you’re never gonna grow” to me is a direct call back to one of matty’s songs (robbers) which says “If you never eat you'll never grow”

Starbuck1234!

I know you guys are looking for things since we are waiting for Rep, Debut, or TS12… and the songs by Miley just didn’t hit with me at all. If at all in need, I have said to listen to Mayhem by Lady Gaga, I’m not the biggest Gaga fan, but I listened to this album and I suggest it because I think it is an AOTY contender. As of now, it is my AOTY. the production on this album is amazing, her vocals are amazing, it’s unpredictable, she brings in different influences and styles, and finally there is a Taylor song. No, Supposedly Taylor did not co-write it, but it is a Taylor song if I’ve ever heard a Taylor song. And if there ever was a ghost-written song (because we know Gaga writes her songs) then this is it. There is just no way she didn’t write this song! But, she didn’t. But, since Miley’s venture didn’t pop off, maybe try the edginess of Mayhem. It’s her best album imo. It’s edgy in a Gaga way, and its production is the best I’ve heard since Renaissance. Its AOTY for me at the moment.

Stephanie Phelps

That’s true. I had this thought while watching this video because the film references discussed aren’t related to her then-actor bf haha. But I guess more accurately it would be “mostly” instead of never

Geneva

But also, don't forget, she made that speech before singing Question for the surprise song, too! Of course it's about him

KC

Maybe I’ve completely lost the plot, but I almost think the songs Joe is credited in are songs that include direct quotes he’s maybe said to her in conversation or fights like the opening lines of exile. I think that could explain jacks cheekiness with the “lyrics too?” question in folklore long pond. And truly how iconic would it be of Taylor to be like “I’m going to make sure you never forget this thing you said to me” and no one else will either 😂

sophie

every time i now listen to any of the love triangle songs i think about „in my head betty and james ended up together“ in the long pond session and thats just such a curious curious thing to sayyyyy

Christine

I’ve thought this too. And it explains why we didn’t get more Joe songs on TTPD, because you cant write a song like Smallest Man or All Too Well about someone suffering from mental health concerns. Joe may have wanted to not be blue all the time, but couldn’t, it’s not his fault. Its just is what it is.

Megan C

🩶🩶🩶🩶 thank you for this glorious gift and I hope you two are hanging in there! 🤗

Kasey

I was thinking the wine too lol

Jessica F

I was in there during the Question...? speech and we were all soaking wet and confused (it was the rainiest rain show that ever rain showed).

Bailey

I'm pretty sure she asked The 1975 to open for the Red Tour which began in March 2013 with UK dates in very early 2014 so she probably asked them sometime between late 2012 and late 2013 when they had a few EPs and were leading up to or had just released their first album in Sept 2013. I think she was a very early fan of them.

Bailey

I think the "I remember" is meant to directly connect to The 1975's song "About You" where he mouthed the words "This song is about you. You know who you are. I love you." Question and About You were written around the same time when both Taylor and Matty were working with Jack and Matty has confirmed that he even worked on some version of something for Midnights that never came out. This was still part of her swirling him into all of her poems in my opinion. The 1975 had Question on their pre-show playlist for their At Their Very Best Tour which started in November 2022 right after their album Being Funny in a Foreign Language (which had the song About You on it) came out in October 2022 a week or two before Midnights was released that same month.

Jenny

I don't think it's fair to insinuate that Joe doesn't deserve his writing credits or that he got more than he deserved. Not saying this from a standpoint of defending him specifically, just artists and their art in general. We've been through the whole thing where Taylor was (and baffling, sometimes still is) accused of not writing her own songs when the credits are there in black and white. Joe is credited, and I therefore believe his contribution on every one of those songs was significant. I also don't think she gives away writing credits freely, when songwriting is so sacred and important to her. I don't believe she'd do that for a man even for the sake of a relationship, the integrity of songwriting is worth more than that. Basically I think that if she could claim a song as self-written or having less songwriters, she would! PS I don't think anyone on here intends to discredit artists/their art at all, I just wanted to share this perspective - as someone who writes it feels like an important point to make!!

Bailey

And it's this same interview conversation where he talks about seeing her at the 2020 NME awards which I think inspired Joe to write the first verse of exile when he saw Taylor and Matty reconnect.

Elizabeth Matheson

I feel like the energy illicit affairs gives is carrie’s perspective in sex and the city when her and big are having the affair and carrie is with aidan and big is with natasha 🫠🫠🫠🫠

Bailey

And he brings back those lines in Roadkill where he says "they're playing your song on the radio station, mugging me off all across the nation" which could be about him hearing Taylor Swift on the radio

Bailey

I was a that show and I agree 100% with everything you said!

Carly

Can you please do this re-fathoming for Lover too?!?! Thank you!

Alana1989xox

There is a Sunday roast dinner level of fathoming in this video and in the chat and I am ready to eat 👏 it 👏 up! Who exactly the muses are doesn't matter as much as the storytelling and just feeling empathy for our girlie who has really gone through it and shared her heart so openly with the world through ✨ offensive ✨ songs. Would love to see you girlies react to your original folklore reaction and rewatch long pond. Take care 🫶

Jamie

like... ok of all the relationships she's had.. Matty is just deeply BLAH to me lol whenever I hear a song is about him, It lessens it for me. im just so not interested in him. I dont know what she saw in him or how HE of all people could have been her ONE that got away... it's crazy for me 😄 but ok sure, whatever. I didn't know him personally. but everytie he's brought up im just like oh meh.

Geneva

Lmao I do think you've maybe lost the plot a bit on that 🤣 but I could be deeply wrong lol

Ashley

I think it’s so crazy for her to go from invisible string to tolerate it (with the barbed wire lyrics) in a matter of 4 or so months when the world was just on lock down and nothing was happening other than being stuck at home lol like I feel she got bored at home— love it or hate it Taylor thrives in a honeymoon phase and when things aren’t great— well, they nicked-named her The Bolter 🤩

Brandi G

I think Joe is Betty 🥸

Brandi G

Which means Taylor is James and Matty is August

Jamie

ok not me just always thinking cardigan was also about her talking to the fans. how she feels like an old cardigan, but we will always put her on as a metaphor for her music. I know it's also about a person, but dont ruin it and say it's about Matty 😭 omg lol

Ottie Rose

To be Jack would be WILD. That man knows all the tea.

K

I think fully formed chorus might mean fully formed chorus… Let us not be irrational here and not discredit everything Taylor said back then

Fourier

2:45 August - Remember when I pulled up and said “Get in the car” 2:45 betty - She said, “James get in let’s drive” These timestamps can’t just be an accident.

Jenny MacRunnel

YES, I've always thought about Sex and the City when listening to this song! He always calls her Kid.

Jenny MacRunnel

I think she was just SO HAPPY to be performing again, even if just in a studio session. She lives for this, guys. She has ALWAYS loved performing

Jenny MacRunnel

Jack really intrigues me sometimes. I think he is an actual genius. In all definitions of the word. And I think he gets his kicks by stirring the pot a bit. I mean, he's the one who told us when Taylor wrote You're Losing Me, which gave us all so much info on the plot we didn't know was happening. So I think he's doing the same thing here. I think he definitely knows something we don't, but until he tells us specifics, its not worth us guessing. He's definitely stirring the pot though. (This isn't meant in a mean way, I love Jack, just a little speculation)

Dominic Cuomo

I think when Travis first heard Peace when he got with Taylor he probably told her “you might not give me peace but I’m going to give you peace”

Fi🌸

I always remember when the lover album came out and London boy. Someone tweeted is Taylor dating a Tory because of the places in London and rugby being a posher sport. And Matty Healy favourited this tweet!! Like making fun of their relationship!

Erica

I feel like August could be from Taylor’s perspective. The way she says August was a girl he spent a summer with.. really links back to Cruel summer where she is sneaking around with a man that won’t commit to her. Which also links to Guilty as Sin… because “he looks up grinning like a devil” is most definitely about ya know… 😏 And it just makes so much more sense for cruel summer to be about matty to me. Joe was not a “bad bad boy shiny toy with a price”… or a “devils roll their eyes kind of guy.”

Erica

I’ve always thought this too! Since Matty has dealt with addiction it makes sense she would be thinking about it so deeply. I’m sure she saw second hand some of his struggles. Maybe she even heard things through jack and his friendship… she probably thought about how people think he’s a shitty person when in reality she knows how hard he’s trying…

Erica

😯

Erica

Also! I think she is still Betty as well! Betty is her years later and he comes back to her front porch light, and they end up together, but he really put her through it.

Kathleen George

I think that how Taylor writes and expresses her feelings and thoughts is incredible. I get people not understanding the Matty thing or relating to it but that’s the point or one of them on Ttpd that nobody understands- they just attacked - it’s her life and her art - theorizing who inspired a song will never lesson it for me. Love this video it’s like unraveling new insights into songs I already love.💕

alex

Lucinda your mind did something here wow I’m speechless 😮

Allie

Problematic idea: what if August is Matty, how he clearly wishes and writes about wishing they had another chance(1975 songs) and James is Joe? Could we be skipping over all the songs like hoax, Great War, etc where she believed he cheated, even in her dreams? And how they may have broken up and now he regrets that? And therefore of course he could be "part of writing it"? Don't come at me because the love triangle part of folklore is the part I know the least about

Allie

Betty and James end up together in her mind because this is her convincing herself they do. This is they survive the Great War.

Renata

sometimes i feel like we as swifties can do too much interpreting these songs, but also, she does make it so intriguing doesnt she? 😂 i’m a little sad you guys didn’t really get into mirrorball because after she mashed it up with guilty as sin i saw it through a completely different lens. like obviously on the surface it’s about her constantly courting attention from her public, but i also think it’s about how she felt she always had to work for joe’s attention. i’m still trying everything to keep you laughing at me/stopped trying to make him laugh stopped trying to drill the safe. and then in guilty as sin she has someone who IS giving her lots of attention and sharing romantic sentiments with her so she starts fantasizing about him to get through the slog her relationship had become. also i have a totally wild interpretation of illicit affairs, that’s it based on that period of her life when she was sneaking around with jake and he was embarrassed and wanting to hide it. the “you kept me like a secret but i kept you like an oath” of it all. don’t call me kid, don’t call me baby/you said if we had been closer in age maybe it would’ve been fine and that made me want to die/in the age of him she wished she was thirty, i feel like a lot of those emotions overlap. anyways i do think she was feeling a lot of messy emotions about many different relationships and how they impacted her and how she wanted to move forward and it will never not blow my mind that it all came out in the form of pure brilliance with folklore.

Erica

Yessss! I’m kind of saying Rep too. We really need to look at End Game and Cruel Summer 👀

Lily

You guys may address this, unsure, I’m still early in the video, but I remember reading that Joe and Taylor were also a bit on and off again throughout their relationship, so I honestly wouldn’t be shocked if the breakup sings he “co-wrote” were actually like about their real life breakups

Allie

I think the hiding and privacy was perfect for reputation era. This is the tragedy of falling in love during trauma, she needed to hide and be alone and heal and get better and Joe was perfect for that but what about when the healing is done? It's time to be Bejeweled but he is still the same

Erica

This could be a really cool theory if Blake and Ryan’s kids weren’t named Betty, James, and Inez… but because of that I think that would be too much of a coincidence.

Erica

Proof of how aloof he was perhaps??

Charlotte Irene

Regarding “the 1” lyrics “I hit the ground running each night”, I think about how often I or other women I know have used running as not just a form of exercise, but as a catharsis during difficult time in a relationship. I know for me there was a time when I imagined myself running away from my problems every time I hit the pavement or the treadmill. It was an escape, and the runner’s high provided very much needed endorphins during that time. I wouldn’t be surprised if Taylor did have a good run each night during this time to let off steam. Maybe at night to avoid being spotted. The next line “I hit the Sunday matinee” might also have been a form of escapism for Taylor during this time of lockdown and perhaps relationship breakdown. Not that she literally went out to a London theater (although maybe she had ways of being able to do so incognito), but maybe dreamt of doing so even as she streamed at home.

Caroline Pvt

Thank you to talk about the song « about you » from 1975! This is one of my favorite songs and I can’t imagine how she could handle earing this song and don’t want to reconnect with him, this is such a beautiful song. Everything is said with a minimum of words…of course she fall in love, they were so connected intellectually

Marissa

Some people also think that there’s a link between the song title being written as “the 1” and “The 1975” 👀

Marie

TTPD = Tea Tea PD 🌷

Elvira✨

the 1975’s song Robbers has the lyric ”if you never eat, you’ll never grow” which is very similar to the 1’s ”if you never bleed, you’re never gonna grow” 👀

Elizabeth

When you type “the 1” into Apple Music “the 1 Taylor swift” comes up first and directly underneath is “The 1975”. I’m sure using 1 instead of “one” was intentional in this way.

Katie

It is also really interesting that Taylor replaced Invisible String with The 1, of all songs, once the news of the breakup broke

Katie

I mean, I think this is why Folklore and Evermore were told to be "made up stories" and then Midnights was "midnights throughout her life" so she could claim they weren't current feelings. I also think he just wasn't that interested in her career, unfortunately.....

Sacred_sunflower

Cruel summer and august are sister songs… cruel summer has matty inspo someone please tell me is what universe joe was a “bad bad boy” matty on the other hand… joe and tay were so off and on and I think she was definitely reaching out to matty. Death by a thousand cuts is also matty lore imo

Phoebe 🌷

Hey Ton I've not heard about this what is it? Just watched the 1 lyric video and not noticed anything out of the ordinary?

Lucie S

Awesome video as always ! Had such a good time watching this with a nice cup of tea ❤️ I hope you guys are doing ok !! I see hoax as a completely Joe song. I think every lyric works too well with Joe and to me she had to say in long pond that it was about multiple people because she couldn't admit it was about Joe as she was still with him. I also can't make sense of the " no other shade of blue" being there otherwise - she doesn't make such patchwork songs usually and she could have easily found lyrics to replace those and make the song really about Scott Here are some of the links I see : "my only one" - she thought Joe was THE one / "my smoking gun" - "two graves, one gun" / "my eclipsed sun" vs daylight / my "win-less fight" - "no morning glory it was war it wasn't fair" & she probably felt like this fight would never end or could not end well / "faithless love" with peace & false god / "best laid plan" with "I am an architect I'm drawing up the plans" - it seemed she wanted to marry and have kids and it wasn't happening, he was her best laid plan but it wasn't going according to plan / "your sleigh of hand" with "my illusionist" - so it goes... / "left a part of me back in NY" - she moved to live with him / "the hero died" with "this is why they shouldn't kill off the main guy" / reminding him of what led to the rep era when they met and how what he is doing now is worse / "my kingdom come undone" vs king of my heart... She begs him to give her a reason, "do something, say something" . This is a faithless love but she wants to believe in it - "I got nothing to believe unless you're choosing me". In Hoax she seems a little desperate which is why it's so sad. And she mashed up hoax with sweet nothing... 
Maybe I am seing too many things that are coincidences though haha Sorry my comments aren't usually this long ❤️

Sacred_sunflower

“ remember when I pulled up and said get in the car“ THE GETAWAY CAR

Kara Montgomery

Also the 1 is not spelled out. Like instead of saying “the one” it is a number. Like the beginning of “the 1975” - “the 1”

Ally ❤️

All roads lead to COSOSOM. It’s kind of crazy. I just saw a snippet from a documentary where someone who was traveling on Taylor’s jet during the 1989 tour was listening to her writing Are You Ready For It…? So we know that predates Joe. 👀

Ally ❤️

(And it never made sense for Joe anyway!)

Ally ❤️

“Don’t call me Kid.” Is giving Carrie & Big

Aly

I can’t wait to revisit lowercasegate when rep vaults come out

Mackenzie

Wait can you do a long pond refathoming?! It would be SO incredible if you built off of this video and then re-analyzed the stuff she, Jack, and Aaron talk about. I love the little moment where you call out Jack’s grin 😂

Ally ❤️

I think someone she considered to be family also covers Karlie. (Hoax)

Ally ❤️

“Stood on the cliffside screaming give me a reason” makes me think of “toss the ashes off the ledge” - like give me a reason to burn it all down… and on the cover of Midnights, there she was with the lighter.

Lefty

Lovely to see you girls all comfy and low key, brings me back to coming here for your middle of the night surprise song reactions which was all time peak cosy vibes

Ewa 👩🏼‍🦰🇵🇱

James is obviously Joe: "I hate the crowds, you know that, Plus, I saw you dance with him" But if I just showed up at your party Would you have me? I was walkin' home on broken cobblestones Just thinkin' of you Taylor is Betty/ Cardigan: High heels on cobblestones, when I felt like I was an old cardigan Under someone's (Joe's) bed You put me on and said I was your favorite, But I knew you'd linger like a tattoo kiss ( a kissfrom a tattooed golden retriever) Matty is August: I remember thinking I had you ("do you think I have forgotten?"), Back when we were still changin' for the better wanting was enough, You weren't mine to lose.

Maryn

ALSO with the cardigan and Betty lyric about the porch light linking to Peter on TTPD... it also connects to the fresh out the slammer outro ....."to the house where you still WAIT UP and that PORCH LIGHT GLEAMS" like literally her running back to the porch where James was waiting for her in Betty which is what happened after toe breakup.. she ran back to the porch where she always imagined they would reunite

Madeline

Have you guys ever considered the possibility that Taylor could be James, Betty and August. She knows each of these perspectives, she's been the person who cheats, she's been the person who feels cast aside but built back up by a man and she's been the other woman

Teresa Ortega

Personally, I think Taylor is actually James and Joe is Betty and Matty being August.

Brittany DeLara

I haven’t watched this whole video (only 5 mins in) but I’d really like to hear y’all’s perspective on whether or not you think Taylor and Matty knew each other long before 1989. Like there’s definitely Matty songs on 1989 but I think probably Red and maybe even Speak Now. I just listened to The 1975’s debut self titled album which came out in 2013 and I swear to god she’s all over that album. ALSO VERY IMPORTANT!!! The end of the first song on that album which is just a little intro, is the exact sounds at the beginning of Paris. And then their intro is followed up by “The City.” Seems a little sus to me.

Brittany DeLara

Play the last like 8 seconds of track one on The 1975 and then immediately play Paris. You’ll be gagged.

Ava Demassio

I will die on the hill that maroon is about Matty - obviously the 1 is about him and the connection of rosé flowing with your chosen family (Matty has referred to his bandmates as his family more than once) and it just connects perfectly to the line in Maroon

anna

i just had a thought about seven having a double meaning, she refers to her and matty as kids in my boy, fots, peter, loml, and probably more! I wonder if that has any connection to seven

Brittany DeLara

Look at the lyrics to Heart Out, Settle Down, Robbers (oh my god.. “stay, stay, stay”, and the about section on genius omg), Girls (holy shit), She Way Out, Undo, You (maybe, on the fence), Me (this is where I really started thinking holy shit these ARE about her), So Far It’s Alright, and Fallingforyou.

Brittany DeLara

I personally think Rep and Lover had more Matty songs than Joe songs.

Brittany DeLara

We definitely didn’t get many Joe breakup songs on TTPD because she had already written them all on folklore and evermore.

Amanda Cronin

I hope you are doing okay Emily ❤️

tbeckett

“Well I’m sure you didn’t want me to write about you so….tada!”

Jazmín Bicego

guyssss "if you never bleed you're never gonna grow" also links to The 1975 lyric: if you never eat you're never gonna grow. there's a lotttt of 1975 songs referenced in her lyrics as well!

Brent

"stop sending me hate" Lately I've started to wonder if the social media algorithms are designed to make us angry to keep us engaged

Ana E

The “this is me trying” conversation during Long Pond focused a lot on addiction and how people who are trying in that way inspired the song, it does seem to have some sort of connection to Matty (especially “you needed me, but you needed drugs more” from Chloe et al.)

Ana E

Also, every time you guys bring up High Infidelity, I feel like what she means in that song is she met Joe when in a relationship with Calvin, but she didn’t actually cheat… to me it sounds like emotional cheating (felt infatuation, but didn’t act on it necessarily) and that’s why she dreamed up songs about cheating ever since (she started to resent her situation with Joe and started to question what cheating would look like then)! And also why “august” seems to be a bit of her own perspective too - feeling empathetic of “the other girl” 🤍

Candace Tirado

Mastermind being a Matty song makes so much sense in the context of the movie phantom thread and also how it’s a more eloquent imgonnagetyouback

Kristen

in thinking about ‘this is me trying’ (one of my faves from the album), doesn’t she say in long pond that she’s been thinking a lot about addiction and people who are either suffering through mental illness or addiction. and how every day they are actively fighting something and no one gives them the credit…. could be a WILD theory, but what if this is her thinking about both joe and matty and trying to put herself in their shoes???

✨Bri✨

Also when talking about exile and the “I gave so many signs” lyric. In you’re losing me she says “I sent you signals” which could be a direct correlation and then also the “how long could we be a sad song” lyric makes me think that maybe they wrote sad songs together and either consciously or subconsciously were processing these emotions through them. And when she wrote you’re losing me I think that lyric is her admitting it or realizing it.

Brent

"she has to be betty" NO SHE COULD BE JAMES

Shay

BONNY!! You just blew my fcking mind w ur mastermind fathoming and when Emily brought up the lyrics “ And now you're mine “ not being literal made me think of the lyrics in imgonnagetyouback “ You'll find that you were never not mine You're mine “ AND MY MIND IS BLOWN I swear you girls are always making me refathom things I thought I’d already fathomed and I adore that abt yall 🫶🏻 pls stay safe Bonny chicken and give Emily hugs for us pls 🤍

Marisa

I agree with this. I had a massive fathoming about this song a couple weeks ago that is too long to type here. I know in the long pond she said it was about multiple things. And normally I don't like to go down the slippery slope of questioning what she tells us like the "lors" do to fit their narratives, but in this case what else was she supposed to say? She obviously couldn't talk about it yet.

Abby Thaine

I’ve been a 1975 fan since 2013 so Taylor and Matty always made sense to me. I know he is (intentionally) controversial, but I have a difficult time understanding why people feel so negatively about a song being inspired by him. It only makes the song more interesting to me! Anyways, it goes without saying, I’m loving these refathomings. It feels like English class deciphering the meaning of things all over again but 100x more fun

Darya 🤍

Guys fortnight is her coming to the realization of what they are post-cardigan

Marisa

Hearing people talk about Joe seeing Taylor and Matty reconnecting at the NME awards possibly being what inspired him to write the first verse of exile has got me thinking. Taylor's feelings toward Matty may not have been some grandiose secret she was keeping from Joe. Just because we didn't know about it doesn't mean Joe wasn't privy to at least some of it. It could have been an ongoing issue for them. We do know that Joe was a bit closed off and non-communicative, but that doesn't mean that they never talked about anything. We never have all the information in real time, and we always learn more from future albums. So the reason so many things don't seem to add up now is because there is probably still a huge piece of this puzzle missing for us.

Merilo

I aleays take it as: Youre a flashback on the 1 screen. Changes everything for me

Marisa

While I don't agree about the two of them making one ounce of sense together, I do agree to being puzzled why certain songs being about him would ruin the song for people. Makes me wonder if some people are way too steeped in the lore, not appreciating the art for the sake of art and quality of art? But maybe there's nothing wrong with that. It's just not the way I consume music personally.

Fourier

Wait! In the songwriting memo of Cardigan, she sings “I knew you living in a gold age, sneak into my birdcage” instead of “I knew you playing hide and seek and giving me your weekend” on the second chorus.

Jazzyg

wow this really gives fearless and speak now eras! Obvi not thinking the MH stuff dates back that far but more like I've known you all my life/ since I was young vibes

Megan C

‼️‼️‼️‼️‼️

JR

Why?

Maggie

I think Halsey could be August, cause matty dated Halsey back after he and taylor initially met. Obviously could easily not be but maybe

Jesse Conner

Loving these refathoming! Regarding “tunnels”, one connection I have also always made to “fights and tunnels” was in Cornelia Street where she says “turned around before I hit the tunnel.” I love this additional interpretation as well ☺️

Jen Bittinger

I think The 1 signifies The 1975, because otherwise she would spell out “one” 💕

sillychicken

Cardigan also links to Fresh out the Slammer: “you’d be standing in my front porch light” and “to the house where you still wait up and that porch light gleams”

sillychicken

And then Peter also with “the women who sits by the window has turned out the light” - lots of lyric parallels with the porch light

Marylovesowls

I LOVED this video! I love refathoming these with you guys! I have never thought about this is me trying that deeply and WOW! Also the long pond studio sessions taking with Aaron and Jack are so funny.. why is Jack so mischievous looking 🤣

Nicole

"Stepping on the last train" really connected to About You train lien they Bonny shared, and also the opening to I Look In Peoples Windows. Illicit affairs is the biggest song I have no personal connection to but LOVE. I hadn't thought about it from the aspect of the other woman. And in the same vein that we see a lot of stories at the start of evermore that could be inspired by Gilmore girls - Illicit affairs could also be her channeling her feelings through Rory x Dean while he was married to Lindsay. Which kind of aligns with the concept that Cardigan and August could BOTH be from her perspective like you were saying.

Grace

I just wanted to say that if you two girls weren’t doing this, I think you would both be amazing therapists😅 The way yall have SO much empathy and understanding of emotions and then can talk through them, describe them, and state the “why” is beautiful.🩷🩷 Not to sound weird, but y’all feel like my therapists in a way lol. Definitely helps me think through my emotions with your breakdowns!💕

Laura

Love this refathoming video. Taylor's art is the gift that just keeps on giving as our lives and her life evolves... we learn so much. Something that I have always just assumed is that Taylor and Matty were always in contact with each other as "friends"... texting back and forth, when she was with Joe. I'm sure they were in touch off and on during covid. And maybe Joe felt a bit insecure about it and wondered... I can't see Taylor hiding the friendship or texts from Joe, she saw Matty as her "best friend" and she's so honest and down to earth. And if Taylor was having doubts about or problems with Joe, I can see Matty exploiting those under the guise of friendship to lead Taylor on and tempt her to hope for a future with him. Matty is most likely the type of friend who would say "I would never do that to you" or "if you were with me"... so of course the 1 is likely about Matty! And it makes sense to me that a lot of these songs on Folklore are about Matty and her conflicted feelings towards him. Love is never simple for anyone, especially our girl. She could be delulu in love, tempted by Matty, and confused all at the same time. She knows she deserves the best but her feelings and confusion are real. And human. And lucky for us, we get to be alive at the same time she is, and she works it all out in her music. I CANT WAIT for the next album... not just to see how her relationship with Travis effects her art, but to see what perspective she has gained about Matty and Joe and her re-records, and life. She is such a gift. AS ARE YOU two. Love these videos so much, thank you for putting joy out in the world.

Jason

Sorry maybe this was already discussed but I'm having a moment over the girls' discussion about Betty. Betty is 100% a metaphor for her relationship with Matty. Replace James with Matty. "So I showed up at your party" is giving "you crashed my party and your rental car" to me. And in Long Ponds she says "in my head they end up together" which makes me think, at the time, she's still thinking her and Matty will come back together.

Nicole

I think you guys always planned to revisit love because of the timing with your channel, but if not PLEASE add it to this series 🩷

Mckenzie Seims

I always thought illicit affairs was about Sex and the city especially since Big calls Carrie “kid”..anyone else?? 😂

sillychicken

I do think august is mainly fictional but like other songs on folklore, still drawing from her personal feelings/experiences, even subconsciously. I feel like she is relating to the character, august, pulling from a way she had felt and even past experiences (perhaps a short fling between her and Matty in the past). So, in a way she is both august and betty like Emily was saying - but august is her past self and betty her future self.

Rachel Nevergall

This might be so WILD BOY WILD JOY of me, but sometimes I wonder if Taylor is actually every character of the Love triangle. Perhaps the feelings all three characters have are feelings Taylor has had at any given time—hope(August), certainty(Cardigan), shame(Betty.) The Betty one is the biggest stretch here. I feel like fearless and evermore and beyond play around with this notion of infidelity. And I wonder if Taylor pining for Matty made her feel guilty and wanting to return back to Joe and forget her fling (that happened “only in my mind.”) I know we all speculate “James” is named after Blake and Ryan’s daughter but Taylor was also named after James Taylor so it has me wondering.

Gabby V

I loved this video so much!!!

Kate Reinwald

What if This is Me Trying is actually from Matty’s POV or (James) because M has struggled with addiction as well.

skizzo

interesting, she also has a "smoke" lyric in "Slut!" with "adorned with smoke on my clothes", although i'm not sure if its about Matty

skizzo

yup, which is why Hoax is on the "depression" playlist

skizzo

I think the entirety of Hoax is about Joe actually, she just masked it up cause she couldnt reveal how her relationship with Joe was crumbling.

skizzo

I still think that song is all about Joe, she just couldnt admit it to us

skizzo

also Peace - Hoax - The Lakes is such a MAGNIFICENT trio of songs one after the other on Folklore. Damn!

Ariel

"Comment on my sweater"!!

Edward

ready for it… is very scary to think about. I’ve been feeling like it’s actually a Matty Healy song

Monica Torres

What always bothers me about trusting Taylor’s word or her lyrics is she’s a very unreliable narrorator. And through most of her music about breaking up with Joe it’s a lot of “I gave you signs you couldn’t/ wouldn’t see. Shot daggers at you..w Etc.” it all made me think she also wasn’t very communicative and instead expected him to read her mind and just know instead of talking to him. In none of the ,trucks does she tell us she tried talking to him. Just that she sent him signals. A lot of the time regardless of how much I adore her music, I don’t necessarily trust what she says. Most of it comes from heightened emotion not truth. All stories have more than one side and with all her inconsistencies I don’t always trust her side. I especially don’t believe that he was so closed off, I think he knew she was emotionally cheating and it closed him off. There’s no way he didn’t know. It also may have contributed to the downfall of his mental health struggles, especially when in songs like afterglow and the Great War we KNOW he was not noncommunicative, she was, he was trying to reach her and instead she closed herself off. We also know by this point in the timeline she was already reconnecting with matty. But somehow Joe gets all the blame for the ending. I love when Taylor takes accountability in her lyrics but with Joe there was none from her, and relationships don’t often end with it being one persons fault.

Daisy Ramirez

I was fathoming this a few weeks ago bc I remembered her saying that in Long Pond too and then right after she follows up with "but he really put her through it" 😭 Also, not to mention Jack's little "hm interesting" remark 😂

Prerna Singh

I think this video (and probably the comment section) should be renamed to "how to make Taylor's entire discography about Matty Healy". Just because taylor is not releasing anything new doesn't mean we as a fandom should overanalyse and create conspiracy theories about her private life based on her old songs. I saw someone comment that songs on Red and Speak now can also be about MH. Yes sure, maybe, the first song taylor ever wrote when she was probably 12 years old was also about MH.

Kayleigh

I really just can’t get over the whole ‘Joe wanted privacy’ thing, like dude, you are an actor! You are someone who is actively trying to be famous. I could understand if it was someone who was not famous in any sense whatsoever but for someone who is an actor? Come on, I bet you anything that if the roles were reversed it wouldn’t have been a big deal to him, but because it’s her who has all this fame specifically that makes it a problem 🙄

Jennifer

I changed my view of Fortnight. I used to find it too hyperbolic but I think actually she's singing about the first time they got together being only a fortnight and that it ruined her love life since because she was still pinning for him a various points as she went in and out of other relationships. I think the second time they were together was longer than a fortnight, long enough to stash his things in her drawers.

Jennifer

I love your emotional intelligence. Bonny talking about Matt's lyrics was a delight. He's not doing anything! He's just thinking about her. SO true! Plus he describes their mutual fantasy of them marrying as being a way to pass the time whereas for her it's the closest she's come to heart exploding.

Jennifer

She wove him into all of her poems. Well, maybe not all, but TTPD did turn some of my previous understanding of songs on their heads. Not being a Matty fan, I am SO looking forward to new material from her. Ultimately, I think all of us can make our own decisions about who songs are about and what they mean to us. Could you pick out one or two you think aren't Matty ones and elaborate?

Jennifer

You needed me, but you needed drugs more is one of her saddest lines imo. I think you could be right about 'this is me trying'. Or it could be a blend of things, I can't see Matty pulling his car off the road to the look out. But then Taylor wouldn't have literally been doing that either if they were both in London during lockdown. Look outs aren't a British thing but they may have been on her mind because of Carolina and the film.

Jennifer

Yes, they are. They feed us things that have enraged other people.

Jennifer

Interesting!

Jennifer

I think you're right. She'd have been running alongside her bodyguards. And she'd have had a private screening room in the house by the heath where she could hit the Sunday matinee.

Jennifer

Oh, I didn't know he'd done that, well observed. She also sang about Hackney and Brixton but I guess Joe's friends being in Highgate and the walks with Stella on Hampstead Heath... there's posh in there.

Jennifer

I get it. I wonder if she was attracted to his passivity and indifference? She works so hard and masterminds and his laid back vibe seemed cool? She cares about her impact on the world around her whereas, he's fairly oblivious to his, out of his mind half the time. It's hard to be the kind of person who admires them both.

Jennifer

It made me think of 'Only Women Bleed' from Alice Cooper but that was before her time.

Jennifer

That's so true. Then there's "fastening myself to you like a stitch". and in So Long London, "stitches undone". I am so confused!!

Marisa

I do agree that everything we hear is just one-sided, so of course it is through her lens and her version of what happened, and of course is not going to be objective reality all the time. I don't necessarily think objective reality is the picture she's trying to paint. She's trying to tell HER truth, and I thought we all just understood that. That being said, it's possible I am misreading and oversimplifying your words, but it sounds like you're saying that no one should have all the blame, but then you are also giving Taylor all the blame for their downfall? I thought it just went without saying that she has some of the blame. We, including Bonny and Emily, talk about how she could be reactive and overly emotional at times. It is clear that she wanted him to read her mind in some ways. Even in some of the songs you brought up, Taylor is saying that she's the one who burned them down, and it was her unconsciousness that was causing her to punish him for things he never did. In Peace she is basically saying that he is better than she is and she's wasting his honor. But there are many lyrics on Lover that indicate they were having problems long before she reconnected with Matty. So what I'm trying to say is that of course things are two-sided. Taylor has plenty of blame she can take, and I honestly don't ever see her denying that. But it feels like a leap to say that it was her reconnecting with Matty that caused Joe to shut down. I didn't intend to imply that Joe was the bad guy here. I just think they were fundamentally incompatible. He is a hot house flower and she is an outdoorsman. It was never going to work.

Marisa

The other day I heard someone suggest that fortnight actually takes place long before any of the other songs on TTPD and that Joe was actually the miracle move on drug. I'm not sure, but it's an interesting lens to look at it through. It's possible.

sophie

wow exile is so curious. i think illicit affairs is maybe about her relationship with joe since the beginning (the dont blame me ties you mentioned, "a drug that only worked the first few hundred times") like it fits in the theme of her clinging to this relationship that was never really what she wanted it to be and just kept crumbling

lisa sage

I need your thoughts on the correlation between "a drug that only worked the first few hundred times" and "i took the miracle move on drug the effects were temporary". Do you even think there's a correlation there?💕

rachel long

I think it’s also important to note that a lot of evermore was recorded the same time they filmed long pond

Leander

LOL. Brittany 💁🏻‍♀️

Charlotte Irene

That’s exactly what I was thinking, running with her security detail - and maybe even private screenings in a theater during their slowest time, during the Sunday matinee.

Jess Davis

i think boygenius are more joyous, happier people than their music as a band lets on. this is esp obvious in lucy’s new album which has a very joyous undertone even if it isn’t “happy” all the time.

Jess Davis

lucy (and presumably julien) also don’t get on with matty anymore and i think were probably only ever hanging out with him bc he was close with phoebe, so it feels weird to lump them in with him. no offense, love you guys and once again reiterating that i totally think you should react to lucy’s new album!!!!!!!! ❤️❤️❤️

Laura

I think James is Joe, Betty is Taylor and August is maybe a 3rd person which taylor mention in other songs as in "The great war" somewhere in the haze she felt she was betrayed, and she never proved it and maybe was her insecurities and realized nothing happened and explore that feeling in the betty song and I think it complements very well on what she said in the long pond that she thinks that James and Betty stays together because her and Joe overcome that incident and also in that moment it was very commented on internet that the face of Jack and Aron was "oh Dear, you are not ready to accept some things" whe she said that. I hope I make myself explain well since English is not my first language and sorry for the long comment haha love to have these space to share with people that loves TS as much as I do

Laura

I think that for the song illicit affair I interpreted it as the other person was the one who is in a relationship, because it touch a feeling very specific of the person (August I will call to make my point clear) August to be waiting to the other person end that relationship and choose to stay with her, but he never does. There is a part I think that she mention to not leave any trail for his partner not realize he is chating, so August becomes like a gost she was there, she can't share it with anyone and there is not evidence of her existence in his life and that make August mad, sad and a mess.

Laura

Also I think the difference between August and the woman on Ilicit affairs is that August thought James has broken up with Betty and James gave August the illusion that he wants to be with her and that she got a chance that Jame will love her as she was falling for him but his heart was always with Betty that's why it wasn't hers to lose; and Ilicit affairs was more of her knowing he is on another relationship and yet deciding to be with him as his mistress

Katherine

im not sure if i believe this but just throwing out the potential of taylor = james, betty = joe, august = matty. i think its curious because she does blend august into illicit affairs on the set list. and i really think illicit affairs if from taylor's perspective. i also think at the time of long pond she probably was still wanting to be with joe... so of course she would say betty and james end up together (joe and her). just a thought

Elvira✨

After hearing what Taylor said in long pond about how she was inspired by different forms of addictions when writing this is me trying, it is possible she took inspirations from Matty’s struggles with drugs and has written parts of the songs from his perspective. She says “First verse is about someone who is in a sort of a life crisis and has been trying and failing and trying and failing in their relationships. Has been messing things up for people they love and letting everyone down. “ and writing this song could be her pardoning his actions and struggles with addictions, and understanding why he hasn’t come back to her yet. And the ”I didn’t know if you cared if I came back” etc is written like she thinks he has plans to come back to her again, but can’t at the moment because of addiction and mental illness struggles. But I also think it could be applied to Joes struggles with mental illness as well, understanding that he is trying in their relationship. And some parts of the songs could be from Taylor’s perspective. In long pond she continues to say the next verse is about struggles coming out of high school as someone who had a lot of potential and then doesn’t feel like that ever again and starts drinking. Which could be her perspective

Juliana Martinez

this is me trying was mashed up with daylight in miami n1 (i was there!!) and i’ve always found that mashup a little confusing??

Laura

I imagined she did a SATC rewatch like every other millennial woman in the pandemic and could picture herself being Carrie in that situation. Having what she thought was an “Aiden” and a “Mr Big” in her own life.

Laura

Your discussion about this album has really made me think (for the first time) how differently Taylor would have handled the loss of her albums if she wasn’t with Joe at the time. Being with someone like him who is so melancholy and quite frankly, depressed, what would it have looked like for her to process this pain with a partner by her side that wasn’t so blue? Would she have wallowed in it so hard? Her deep sadness, and suicidal tendencies during this time is completely understandable but part of her sadness was also because of Joe’s sadness and how it was affecting their relationship. Like imagine if Scott had sold her albums to Scooter while she was with Travis!!!! How differently her pain would have come out through songs. We will never know but it’s so fascinating to think about….

Laura

I want to add that I know Taylor doesn’t need a man to get through difficult things. I was thinking more about if she just had better and actual support during this time what it would have looked like!

Ella

Wait but when talking about hoax at long pond she also suggests a core theme of the album is being emotionally vulnerable but also ambiguous at the same… so maybe confirming that is what she was doing with these songs? I.e. channelling her vulnerable feelings but in an ambiguous way so it wasn’t obvious at the time what/who they were about?

Fede

that's a really interesting thought! and it's clear you're not belittling Taylor as her own person - because honestly, a good support system does make quite the difference, you know?

Fede

AND! she then proceeded to put Betty in the denial playlist after breaking up with Matty 👀

Fede

honestly, to me it's even more baffling to think about his reaction to songs that were actually about him all along - see "tolerate it" !!!! 🤯

Meghan Carty

I’m convinced that High Infidelity is NOT a Calvin —> Joe story, but a Joe —> Matty story. I have really been fathoming this! don’t care that April 29 is somehow relevant to Calvin —> Joe. There have been lots of other April 29ths :) 1. The title is a play on the book/movie/TV show High Fidelity (Zoe Kravitz stars in the TV show!!!) which is about a person in a failing relationship who re-visits their past relationships to figure out what to do/how to move forward (ie, the whole concept of Midnights, really) 2. We know that at least some of the 3am tracks were written pretty close to release, so time wise, it makes sense that her reconnection w/ Matty during their Midnights writing time could’ve inspired it. 3. Lyrical connections: “Lock broken” (Fresh out the slammer), “Slur spoken” (The Bolter - “he’ll call her a whore”), “I didn’t know you were keeping count, but oh you were keeping count” (Long Story Short “no more keeping score” and Rep lyrics too). I almost feel like High Infidelity is her processing her inclination to cheat that reconnecting with Matty inspired, and perhaps that Joe was not super happy with their reconnection. Folklore’s infidelity themes could easily be connected to that too, but prior to the actual reconnection.

Juliana Martinez

what documentary? who said this? i need to know!!!

Marisa

I always took it as she was repurposing the songs and singing them to Travis. I keep getting the strong feeling that she really processed a lot of things during that last break before the final leg of the tour. She started dating him very soon after a devastating heartbreak, and I think it would be unrealistic to think that things didn't come up for her over the past couple years. The fact that she's in a stable and happy relationship doesn't negate that.

Paige Thompson

I think that illicit affairs was heavily inspired by Sex and the City (a popular TV show). It would be from the perspective of Carrie (the main character) who has had a long on again off again relationship with Mr. Big, and a big storyline at one point is that she is his mistress after he gets married as well as cheating on her own boyfriend. She also hides it from her friends. The biggest clue for this is that Mr. Big calls Carrie "Kid" which is not a common thing in romantic relationships. I feel like Taylor could have been inspired by their relationship, and especially in the bridge added her own feelings about Matty and was possibly fantasizing about an illicit affair.

Maria

Well I'll be damned

Coffee @ Midnight

Fathoming on the love triangle: it’s been suggested that the third person/august is potentially Halsey, who supposedly was also in a dalliance with Matty in that late 2014/early 2015 timeline. Taylor and Halsey are friends or at least greatly respect each other’s work, and so I think that’s why she wanted August to have that message that the “evil girl” is a myth. She didn’t see Halsey as trying to steal Matty away but as another Wendy who fell for the same lost boy. Just some thoughts to ponder.

Julia W

Idk about the timing of all of this, but she did replace invisible string once she & joe had broken up with the one which def seems to be about Matty once that relationship didn’t work out either! Leads me to believe the one was about Matty this whole time

MilenaHc

I've always believed that the "love triangle" came to her when writing Betty. I think she saw an opportunity to "justify" those songs. Cardigan and August have absolutely no connection at all through lyrics, we have to get to Betty to make those connections in 2 lyrics. I think August is her talking about a fleeting romance that went nowhere (aka Matty) and I think Betty is about something that happened between her and Joe disguised as "17 yo James apologizing to Betty". Considering he's the one that started writing the song in the first place, I don't think is that improbable. Also Taylor saying in the Long Pond Sessions that James did her wrong but they got back together... I'll never forget Jack's reaction to that.

MilenaHc

Illicit Affairs could also be about being cheated ON. "The perfume she picked up just for him" that he leaves behind like she doesn't exist. The bridge could be her singing to him after finding out... this song could be interpreted so many different ways.

MilenaHc

Hoax is also a metaphor for the whole album and how she disguised her feelings on the songs. It's very "mastermind" of her to make up all this stories to justify writing about Matty and her feelings towards Joe during this time. This album could easily be called Hoax and it would be very fitting. I also think the song itself is a lot more about Joe than she was willing to admit and that's why she had such a hard time with coming up with a concept for it and why she went to Aaron with it.

Megan Spencer

the one, question, and Chloe et all all feel deeply connected to me. I’d be interested in y’all doing a video analyzing all these songs as a trio

CAM

Mastermind - somewhere in the clown channel I have a full breakdown of Mastermind being a Matty song, and connecting the ERAS tour outfits in mastermind to the black and white colors of 1989 tour set, including the lyric "I thought love was black and white"... "Best laid plans" ... "Phantoms like wild horses" etc.

Emma

I think in have read somewhere that Taylor Hersfeld Said that illicit Affairs was inspired by some relationship from Sex and the City. Personally cant deny or confirm because I haven’t watched that show and I don’t know where she supposedly said that, but it might be interesting to look into this

domdodom

reach again just like evermore and midnights video trying to link these albums to that man

Samskie

Big does call Carrie "Kid" all the time in the show, and it always reminds of them too

Emma

I have just done some research and I couldnt find something where she explicitly said that, but in long pond she talked about it being inspired by a tv show or a movie or a book, and I have also found many people who pointed out how fitting sex and the city is. The kid and baby part ist just so specific. Also I 100% am of the believe that folklore has many ficional elements, which does not mean that her own experiences didn’t also bring her perspective into the story’s, but this feels like a fitting example for all of the times she said she was inspiered by other things than her own life

Elin Saulo

Ive always pictured this is me trying as a relationship song. She says in long pond sessions that it could be a relationship where people struggle with addiction or mental health issues and you want a relationship to work. Ive always seen it like "I know i have issues and Im so sad about this or Im struggling with this but I am trying. Please see Im trying" And I've always felt that suits for her and Joe. Like maybe she's sad about not being able to tour or she's struggling with depression because of it and he doesnt understand her. But shes trying to make it work? I dont know, thats how ive always seen that song cause I relate to it SOOOO much. One of my favs <3 Cause if you struggle with mental health issues or addiction its hard to explain to the person you love why you cant do some stuff or you cant deal in different ways. So all you say is "Im trying!" I feel like its a call for help. Like the signals shes talking about in different songs when it comes to Joe. Ive always felt like their relationship have been quite.. sad? Maybe they have been super depressed during covid and when reality hit them after covid they realized how different they are. I dont know, im rambling haha!

Vanessa Lesser

I haven’t finished the video yet - so far fantastic fathomings!! One thing that immediately came to mind about the “tunnels” that i overlooked in the past is that lately there are more and more rumours in the US about the underground cities, tunnels, highways etc for the elite in the US. From mansions to restaurants, parties etc. I think this week a former intelligence official confirmed the transportation between them maybe? But this would be crazy interesting if she was aware of them in Red era (specifically in LA) and then referenced them in the great war. Could be a metaphor but what if it was an actual conflict that joe wanted to utilize them to avoid media and she just wanted to live and love openly as she does now with travis. Fascinating.

Lauren

Listening to the discussion about Exile. There’s a short video that I had to find on Tumblr of Matty approaching Taylor at that awards show in 2020. Could it relate to Joe’s first verse in the song?? Maybe he saw something in their interaction that day.

Samm Delamoneda

Now refathom again considering Joe and Taylor had a secret breakup we don’t even know about and her and Matty had a thing before she wrote folklore. So many Matty songs popping up and love triangles and sneaking around….

CJ Dobbs

These fathomings are everything!!

Nadily Perandin

I love the theories, but personally, I refuse to believe that so much on her life revolves around Matty Healy . It just makes me mad and sad

Jessica

Why does Bonny not like Brittni? lolol That just seems so random 🤣😭

Emilie

i personally think this is me trying is matty's perspective

Emilie

also mirrorball looks a LOT like a 1975 song called medicine.

Abigail Collins

probably for the reason that many people don’t like her which is that her brother in law has sexual assault allegations and brittany defended him/ she is a trumpie.

Cléa M

About the love triangle, I think that Taylor is James, Betty is Matty, and Augustine is Joe. James (Taylor) lost Betty (Matty) while going with Joe (Augustine), but in the end, she tries to come back to Betty (Matty). In Cardigan, when the narrator says 'Peter losing Wendy', I think it doesn't mean that James = Peter, and that he is losing Wendy, I think it is saying that Betty (ie Matty ie Peter) is losing James (ie Taylor ie Wendy) because James (Taylor) is going with someone else (Joe). Also, to go further with this theory, I think that Hits Different is also about Matty, and she refers back to the sun and the beach (ie the month August) by saying that "now the sun burns my heart, and the sand hurts my feelings" : James (Taylor) is now done with Augustine (Joe), she wants to come back to Betty (Matty).

Janie

There’s so many comments and I’m so late to the party. I don’t know if somebody has already said this or asked this question, but is it possible since so much of it is about her errors, speaking about about cardigan specifically, that the line where she sings, “you drew stars around my scars”might be alluding to duets or collaborations with other artists that we never got to listen to because her music was sold out from under her?

Janie

Also, what if the triangle is all her or the three ghosts in her videos? Also, I have often wondered if folklore and the story of Betty, James, and August are her laying the groundwork for a much bigger story that maybe she wants to film? Like it was part of her manuscript? Sorry if I’m sounding dumb because I’m a very very new fan. I just started listening to her the summer of 2023 because she is my kids age so I didn’t listen to her back then because I saw her as a child and did not think about her, perhaps writing in a way that would resonate with me. Midnights though is the album that you in and so her albums, beginning with folklore feel like lyrics that resonate with me. There’s some songs in her earlier albums that I like, but they still feel like not growing up enough and I don’t mean that in a condescending way at all. I think her writing is beautiful and I admire it, but it took her growing up for her to write in a way that makes someone my age go back into the past with so much nostalgia remembering what that felt like. And let me tell you, I appreciate it so much.

Janie

I think maybe Illicit Affairs could be connected to Guilty as Sin? It was all in her mind? Sometimes we can have an emotional affair that’s just as strong as a physical one..

Foxy_Tatty

The speed at which Emily rattled off elements of nature in folklore was impressive!

Ellen Blair

“And if you never bleed you’re never gonna grow” from the 1 always reminded me of the 1975 lyric from Robbers “and if you never eat, you’ll never grow”

RL

After hearing her comment in hoax about really connecting with nature and showing that through the album, I wonder how often she's done this before. A possible future fathoming could be seeing which songs/lyrics throughout her discography are parallels/symbolism with nature, or the different elements🍃🪨💧💨🔥 Ex: I see Guilty as Sin sonically as a fire song. With the lyric "My bedsheets ablaze", and the reality that she's kind of living a lie, her pants are on fire. I hope this kind of makes sense :))))))

Chevonne

im not finding "tunnels" in the great war?

Em Wilkins

In my brain, she had a thought of "how do I release August and Cardigan without having everyone analyse it against the backdrop of my relationship?", and that's when she thought about when she was writing Betty with Joe, came up with the love triangle concept, and added the line into August about the car and the line in Betty about cardigan/car again. She'd clearly never discussed August as a character before - Jack had no idea - and the whole idea of the love triangle kind of feels like an afterthought? None of the other songs mention names, only Betty, they only reference each other in very small ways, in single lines (which seems odd if its meant to be a woven narrative), and Betty's vibe is very innocent/small town (talking about homeroom, and riding on his skateboard) whereas cardigan is much more sophisticated and adult - high heels, black lipstick, "sensual politics" - it just doesn't seem like the same relationship or person to me.

Jasmin

I love your comments about the love triangle and that cardigan might not have been written with that in mind. For literal years I´ve had trouble remembering the 3 songs and always convinced myself that cardigan wasn´t part of it because it feels so so different and plays a huge part in her later songs (especially Peter!!). I think within her folklore and evermore eras I actually don´t believe everything she says because in hindsight so many of the songs have such a different meaning now. maybe she was (and rightfully so) just protecting herself and her relationship back then.

Jasmin

One thing I do wonder though, didn´t she cut The 1 from the eras tour setlist after her and Joe´s split was announced? I´m unsure about the timing though.

Breezy Bumbles

Well no wonder this poor woman was in love with him! Can you imagine how seen she must have felt by Matty openly declaring his love for her and writing songs about her for so many years! I would be head over heels. Who even knows how they’ve been communicating to each other through their songs over the years? There’s so much we don’t know but even with the information that we DO know, I get it! I completely understand why Taylor would have deeply connected with this man. Maybe that’s controversial? But About You is a great song.

Breezy Bumbles

“You put me on and said I was your favourite”. Matty literally put her 1989 t-shirt on and she did the same for him.

Lila813

Sorry but you probably have confused the facts :) invisible strings was originally on the setlist and it was replaced by the 1 around the time when Taylor & Joe breakup news went public (* it was also Matty’s birthday lol) Besides, after the release of TTPD, Taylor actually cut the 1 from the setlist when she kicked off the eras tour in Europe :(

Jasmin

that´s right!! thank you so much for the clearification!! <3

Paweł

Exile its just our queen of easter eggs 😆😆😆😆

Paweł

Seven is actually about me

Laura

True! And it could also be a wordplay as in "you put on my music"...

Lila813

No worries it’s my pleasure🥰

Lila813

💯 and it’s also a lyrics parallel to Roadkill—“If you don’t shoot, then you’ll never know” & “If you don’t eat, then you’ll never grow”:) btw the song was on NOACF by The 1975 released in May 2020, during the time when she was making folklore 👀

ShannonCalzini

« took the battle underground » is the reference I believe.

Alicia L

So interesting thanks for that, those lyrics always linked for me too and I always wondered about the timings 👀

sebastián

it literally fits them so well it’s all i ever think about when i listen to it like that’s carrie and big’s song and nobody else’s 😭

Grant Carriker

I think she’s all three of them. There’s so many fictional things I’ve written where I go back after some time away from them and go “oh wait that’s a lot closer to home than I thought it was.” Like I think it’s totally viable if she was like “oh let me kind of write about this fictional situation where someone wants someone they can’t have/who was never theirs (August), someone wants someone who they know no matter what they’ll end up with in the end (Betty), and someone has sort of emotionally or mentally (or physically) stepping out on the person they actually should be with (James.) I’d buy her writing all three of these perspectives, thinking that she’s just sort of funneling her feelings about the whole situation through a fictional narrative, and then going back and being like “yeah damn these are all a lot more me than I gave them credit for.” I don’t think you need to like assign just one of them to her perspective, because they’re all her perspective. Just something I was thinking about while listening. Love you guys 🥰

Maja Gunhold

this is me trying is the dorothea of folklore. both of the songs are from matty's perspective.

Russel C. Jones

Wait a minute... didn't you watch Long Pond Sessions film on Disney+? She literally explains every song's meaning there

Great Scott

Just fathomed a couple things about Exile while watching this: "Laughing, but the joke's not funny at all" = "The jokes that he told across the bar were revolting and far too loud" --ICFH(NRIC) "Balancing on breaking branches" = "My beloved ghost and me sitting in a tree D-Y-I-N-G" (How Did It End?)

Great Scott

Re: the love triangle--I think she is Betty, August, and James, and each song represents what Taylor was feeling at different times. She was with Joe, but she was also in love with Matty. Cardigan is her feelings about how Matty made her feel special. August is about knowing that Matty wasn't really her's, just a fling (if that). And Betty is that part of her that maybe tried to convince herself that she really wanted to be with Joe. Hence, her insistence in the Long Pond Sessions that Betty and James get back together. (And given this, gotta love Jack pushing back on that now.) She made up characters and a situation to explore and write about her real-life situation from every perspective. This is a theory that I've kind of had in the back of my head for a while but never really fleshed it out until watching your discussion about who is who.

Great Scott

I have a theory about Epiphany. I know it's about her grandfather's experience in war, and doctors and nurses during Covid, but I never understood why it was called Epiphany, or the line "you dream of some epiphany." What is the epiphany?? An epiphany is a sudden realization or insight. We know that Taylor loves a layered meaning. (I love Bejeweled for this because on the surface it's about a woman who feels underappreciated and is breaking free, but it can also be about losing her masters (her jewels) and knowing that she's the one that's bejeweled and she can "reclaim the land" with her re-records.) The second verse of Epiphany gives me You're Losing Me vibes, especially comparing the imagery of "Doc, I think she's crashing out" and "I can't find a pulse, my heart won't start anymore for you." And then you look back on the first verse being about her grandfather's experience in war and you get parallel imagery of "I tried to be your bravest soldier, fighting in only your army front lines..." So then Epiphany as the title makes some sense if a deeper meaning is about her realizing that her relationship is dying and probably isn't going to last. And that's something she "just can't speak about"...yet. I don't know. Is that a stretch? What do you think?

Alexa Laine

My take on TIMT: the song is from the perspective of *Matty Healy* thinking about Taylor, his addictions, and his mental health issues, NOT Taylor thinking about Matty. Recall how she said she wrote in folklore from the perspective of people she’s known? I’m fathoming

Alexa Laine

“And now I’m here on your doorstep…” the way James (Matty) turned up on Betty’s (Taylor’s) doorstep in Betty. The narrator in TIMT is 100% a fictionalized (folklore-ified) version of Matty Healy. What she imagines and wants him to be feeling, thinking, and eventually doing

Jana Woodbury

If you really support women why the little jab about Brittany?Because of her politics? This is what lends to our society being lame and divisive. Good for Taylor to have her beliefs and still show us all how to be friends with those with perhaps some different beliefs. From the outside, both Pat and Brittany appear to be loving, supportive friends. I love that for both Travis and Taylor. Brittany appears to be a great mother and a champion for women's sports with her female soccer team. I am happy for Taylor and her many good friends.

Ally ❤️

Loving the word hoax because it has an X in it. Spoken like a dedicated scrabble player. ❤️🥰

Trish Veneziano

This song hits me the same way. Taylor singing from the perspective of an affair partner, but she’s actually the one cheated on.

Trish Veneziano

If we’re not cemented to the relationship lore we are aware of, this is clearly a break up album. I think they got back together after this album, or after most of it had been written.

Harriet Rose

" youre a film reel" as bonny said one that was never made which also links to "the greatest films of all time were never made"

Harriet Rose

also "and you'll be standing in my front porch light" links to "To the house where you still wait up, and that porch light gleams" in fresh out the slammer

Soph

This video is one of my favorite background videos for some reason lol

LiliaC

Well, we have now seen what hanging out around positive people has done to her. The sky is opalite!

Rebecca

Love watching this video, one of my faves, my favorite album. 🫶🏼

Rebecca

Wow, this is interesting! This hadn't even occurred to me!!! Thanks for sharing, you've given me a bit to fathom! 🫶🏼

Dswiftie

I bet there are more songs about matty in 1989.

Amy Sawyer

Do we really not think that Joe was a serial cheater? She has so many references to cheating all her songs during the Joe period and I think it's interesting that no one jumps on those.

irina smetanina

Such a profound video which made my day and left me speechless! Thanks besties, it was the fathoming of the year! <3

Shona

Taylor discussed on long pond studio sessions ‘this is me trying” was her reflection on how hard it is for addicts (which makes me think Matt Healy) and how they have to try everyday just to be sober / and that should be credited: https://youtu.be/NJEEFr7EXuw?si=8FiFFqcs4knBjBby

Ally ❤️

If he was hopping in a getaway car with Taylor (getting away from Tom), I think he’s not above cheating. Nothing good starts in a getaway car, as we know.

Ally ❤️

In exile, when you pull the lyric “balancing on breaking branches” all the way up to The Fate of Ophelia - that is how Ophelia dies in Hamlet - she was leaning on a willow tree whilst gathering flowers and the branch gave way, and she drown in the river. I mean… she had been toying with these thoughts for quite a while. Now Joe playing Ophelia’s brother in Hamlet/Hamnet. Crazy.

Ally ❤️

I think This is me Trying is written from Marty’s perspective.

Ally ❤️

The tunnel issue - leaving NYC you either have to go over a bridge or a tunnel - from Her place in NYC, a tunnel is closest (Cornealia street is the clearest depiction of this). This is also tru of leaving their place on the Heath - you have a tunnel to go through.

Alevtina

August could be the other girl in “chase two girls lose the one”.

Bailey

Maybe this is a crazy thought, but when she says these longings locked in a vault in lowercase, maybe she means midnights vault? Because we know her and matty worked together on that and we’ll never get those songs/versions. I’m not totally convinced “lowercase” is really an Easter egg? Maybe but it could just be symbolic for this like super deep secret only she knows. The only key is mine type energy. And that would be when she’s truly swirling in Marty’s orbit and maybe feeling everything heightened. Just an idea!!!!

Deb

The songs like Exile which she says Joe "cowrote" I think they were arguing and she converted their conversation into lyrics and gave Joe a writing credit because this was their back-and-forth discussion.

Deb

What is clear is that you can make Taylor's lyrics fit any situation you want. I was watching a post from The Swiftie and The Scholar and he was poking fun at this need to "fit her lyrics into some narrative" so he took Maroon lyrics and successfully built the case of how she is talking about vampires and becoming a vampire in that song. Thus showing you can make the lore fit however it is meaningful to you. Apparently, no one really even knew that Mattie was in the picture all these years until well into listening to TTPD. Maybe there are other men who she has kept under wraps? Fans just really don't know.

Deb

Regarding your question about the song Peace, Travis, like Taylor, has learned how to dance in the rain.

Ashley

“If you never bleed, you’re never gonna grow” maybe a reference to the 1975 song “Robbers” If you never eat, you’ll never grow”

Ashley

I LOVE THIS (yes here in 2026 😂) This really sounds like the connection to him wearing the 1989 Tshirt 🤯 The situationship I’ll never get over.

Juliane

In 2019 Taylor was (apparently) SO in love with Joe, then suddenly in 2020 she wishes someone else would've been the 1... and she continues expecting Joe to propose? After reopening something with Matty... Joe was not blind, maybe he was just too polite to leave her but he knew he couldn't marry someone who would always wonder about someone else. It's unfair that everyone expected him to do something about marriage there....

Ally ❤️

Here after Showgirl… and in exile, “balancing on breaking branches” is how Ophelia dies - balancing or holding onto a Willow branch, she falls into the water and drowns… 😳 I’m not saying she wrote this with TFOO in mind, it’s just crazy… #TayVoodoo

Ally ❤️

I can SO hear Joe saying, “step right out!”

Deb

You didn't even hear me out (you didn't even hear me out) You never gave a warning sign (I gave so many signs) All this time I never learned to read your mind (never learned to read my mind) I couldn't turn things around (you never turned things around) 'Cause you never gave a warning sign (I gave so many signs) So many signs, so many signs

Adds

She told us she’s an unreliable narrator in Dear Reader.

Maria GB

“You showed me colors you know I can’t see with anyone else” is 1000000% about Matty, IT HAS TO BE

Harvin Perez

I saw an interpretation where Chase two girls, lose the one was about herself. She was torn between two versions of herself and she left him go.

Barb 🔆

Totally agree We are eager to make a cohesive narrative where a) there might not be one b/c as an artist she's making it up as she goes b) we absolutely don't know what's going on behind the scenes

grace

i know im a bit late to this loll but the 'if you never bleed you're never gonna grow' lyric in the 1 mirrors the 1975 song roadkill where he says 'if you never eat you're never gonna grow'! just thought it was interesting

sleepless_dream (Lauren)

OMG I just had a thought watching this just now when you starting discussing the love triangle. If Taylor were to map unto one of them she could be James because her parents named her after James Taylor! 😅

Jessie

Fathomings in 'About You' by the 1975 lyrics: "we get married in our heads" seems like "wearing imaginary rings" and "I miss you on a train" reminds me of I Look In People's Windows" just little things

Katie Kimmel

This is EXACTLY why I think "you needed me, but you needed drygs more" spoke to both relationships. Addiction= matty Mental illness= Joe I think she was saying that they both needed something and the willness for them to see that and then choose to do what was necessary if they were able/willing to put their relationship/love above their vices.

Katie Kimmel

Remember the scene during the Anthology reaction where Bonny made a comment and the room went silent? Then Bray(Breah?) finally spoke and said, "That was irresponsible." Lucinda...IRresponsible.

Katie Kimmel

I think its about both. And after I thought about that, I started diving into TTPD and I think MANY of those songs are about both relationships.

Katie Kimmel

When was she swinging in that birdcage...

Gina

Bonnyyyyy, you're wearing my absolute dream shirt omggggg I'm going to cry

Evangeline

Omg I never fathomed this before!!

Barb 🔆

Wowww - drugs recreational, and drugs medicine... Fascinating!!!