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The West Wing, Season 4, Episode 12 (Patreon)

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2024-03-26 02:02:15
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2026-06
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Guns Not Butter

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Weird Magic

2003 Primetime Emmys - only 2 wins - Outstanding Drama Series and Outstanding Director (for the Season 4 finale). No acting wins this season.

Weird Magic

Originally airing on January 8, 2003, 'Guns Not Butter' is Episode 12 of Season 4 of The West Wing. It is the 78th episode overall and has an IMDB rating of 7.7, placing it as the #18 ranked episode of this season and #74 out of all the episodes shown so far.

Martin Nicholls

There is a better argument for US foreign aid other than the three major obvious ones without the perceived wishy-washy type of arguments that put the right's teeth on edge - the US vacuums up capital from around the world, even when it isn't deserved: the US produces terrible economic data and you get massive capital flight to the US because of a perception of safety that probably isn't deserved. It could just as easily be China, the EU (though IDK why you would, the Euro is a total disaster), Brazil or a list of other countries (or a more healthily distributed basket of countries) that you need more than one hand to count, not many of them friendly to the US. If the US isn't seen to be giving back, with some humility, it may end up going that way and the US will be significantly economically poorer for it, and it won't weather bad economic scenarios anything like as well as it does. There's a much better argument about if it is spent wisely. Also, it absolutely directly affects US security and a bunch of other things. Overall a good episode, Danny back just changes the feel of the show entirely even though he's only in it for a few minutes, it's hard to put your finger on exactly what it is.

Laura Room

No worries on confusing Zoey's boyfriend's name. It Hean Paul, but he's referred to as Jean Pierre in jest and as viewers we're definitely meant to dislike him. I love the humor in this one, including the goat and the jokes at Will Bailey's expense.

Pam Nail

- In my rankings, this is #10 for the season and #62 overall. I've always liked it and found it highly underrated. - The "guy the guy counts on" line was actually written for the S3 finale. In "Posse Comitatus," just before the entourage heads to New York, there was originally a little scene with Simon and Donna. She's telling him about the welfare reform bill and how Josh's job is to handle the things that absolutely have to get done. Simon asks if he's ever considered running for office himself and Donna responds "He doesn't want to be the guy. He wants to be the guy the guy counts on." I don't know at what point it got cut, but it's in the Script Book for S3/4. I like that Sorkin kept it in his pocket until he found another use for it -- a good argument that you don't have to actually *kill* your darlings. - At the risk of sounding superficial, this part of S4 is one of my favorite CJ looks of the series

Brian Harris

I forgot what an important episode this is for Donna. This is where you start to realize how savvy she’s become, how much she’s learned. It’s easy to lose that in the fog of the whole will they or won’t they thing.

Jack
>>133376964

In your clarification of Jean-Paul's name you got his name wrong...

Jack

Danny's final argument about foreign aid is so true, and it's one of the things I hate most about the current state of the Ukraine debate in the US. Since when was it not in America's own best interests to have more thriving democracies and the rule of law respected around the world? To have autocracies weakened and pushed back? To have Russia's capacity to oppose the US enormously degraded? America (with allies) protecting international law is what stops pirates from ruining global shipping (and thus the US economy); it's what stops China from seizing Taiwan's semiconductor industry and holding the US to ransom; it's what stops other countries from stealing US patents; it's what allows US multinational companies to dominate global industries and bring all those profits back to the USA as well as to lead the world in R&D. And it's what means that when terrorists attack New York, the whole rest of the world rallies around the US and sends their own children to war on its behalf. I know I don't need to lecture you guys, but these "America First" people drive me crazy... Supporting Ukraine *is* putting America first; giving the nod to Vladimir Putin is not.

Jeff

This has two of my favorite but easily-missed CJ lines. First, after deflecting Danny's theories about the Shareef assassination, she sits at her desk and gazes at her goldfish, saying only "What's up there, Gail?", as though she's envying the simple, peaceful existence of the fish. Sometimes when life feels overwhelming I'll stare off into space and just mutter "What's up there, Gail," almost as a mantra to calm myself down. And second, when Mike the Goat Handler says that Ron doesn't do well in the cold, CJ looks right at him, saying, "And are you Ron?", as though she really wondered if he regularly refers to himself in the third person. I love that moment. Your immediate reaction of hate to Jean-Paul is one shared by all of us, and is a tribute not only to the writing but to the actor, Trent Ford. He's American but delivers a believable French accent (I think), and he embodies that self-absorbed smarminess that instantly makes us root for Charlie even more.

Aaron

Great episode coming up next week!

Cosmic Slice

The thing about the West Wing that is amazing is even when the points in the episode kind of miss the mark...the episode is still incredibly good. Such a testiment to the writing and this *incredible* cast. And it just never stops being good, right up until the end. Everytime you guys make a comment about, "I wish they would do ___" or "I wish we'd see ___" it takes willpower to hold on to the spoilers!! :)

Youtalkingtome
>>133374940

Ya know I was thinking the same thing about him. His character just feels so warm and morally correct. I wish he was in almost every episode but it might feel forced if that was the case. It would also take away from the main plot

Youtalkingtome
>>133376964

Screw Jean Paul lmao. He's so hateable. Will is actually really growing on me. I like his boy scout attitude

Youtalkingtome
>>133408009

Okay, I don't want to mock anyone but I feel like doing a French accent as an actor would be so much fun. Ever since I saw Kevin Kline in French Kiss.

Aude M
>>133408009

Haha ! I can do a French accent without for even trying 😅 Trent Ford's accent is ok. A good French accent is also Michel in Gilmore Girls (but the actor is French-canadian so it's easier for him)

Balazs Foldes

Yeah, I cannot quite frame the thought. I kinda like some stuff in the episode, but it leaves me restless and anxious. Maybe just because it's an 'our guys lose' episode, nobody loves that, although I definitely see the dramatic need to be beaten from time to time. Also, it's one of the episodes where I really don't like the photography at some points. Too many dark areas, which just show up as black or dark background. I mean, Ron, for example, can be almost invisible for me sometimes. Anyway, there are definitely still stuff here which I love. I love the little sorkinisms, like the '115 thousand... you mean million... no, thousand' repeated so many times. It does work. Or things like Dona's story about Fishhook (praying for health and strength, steal the rest) - so brilliantly side-tracked into just one brief minute of emotional intensity (that she prayed for Josh when he was shot - nicely rhymes with the 'effectivenes of remote prayer' plot, too). Anyway, it's the the little things that I love.

Youtalkingtome
>>133589420

I agree with you. However, I really do enjoy films and tv episodes where our heroes lose. It gives them humanity and it makes them relatable. It's great tension and it makes us root for them even harder!

JVTrickypants

Can't remember if we've already seen it, but not a spoiler and this has always stuck in my head: "Foreign aid stops wars...that's it, it's as simple as that, foreign aid stops wars."

JVTrickypants

Upcoming episode is really, good, but it is an absolute anomaly in the show during Sorkin's years. He never did this as he had his fingers in all the writing pies, but this is the only episode not to be written by Sorkin. As you'll notice Sorkin is ALWAYS listed as a writer or for the teleplay, etc. This time he basically told a fellow playwright, he really respects and loves, Jon Robin Baitz, Pulitzer Prize finalist, and many other awards. Sorkin basically gave him free reign on the next episode and it says something that he would be willing to do that. It's not at all undeserved and it's a really good episode, but it's an outlier and some people like it and some people insist on skipping it when they're doing their 18th run through. I skip it sometimes in the four or five dozens of times I've been through the series, but that's usually because I'm wanting to get on with the season...but this is a great episode with great writing, and of course great acting, but how couldn't there be with the great Donald Moffatt. Hope you guys enjoy it!