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The West Wing, Season 4, Episode 23 (Patreon)

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2024-06-10 22:34:03
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2026-06
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Content

"Twenty Five"

Comments

Jake

I'VE BEEN WAITING FOR THIS ONE LET'S GOOOOOO

Jack

I was about to go to bed because it's 23:30 here in the UK. Guess it's going to be a late night...

Calina Crandall

Hands down one of the funniest lines of the series is "Everyone...breathe regular" while sounding like a lawnmower. You first Mr. Speaker lol. I love John Goodman. He's amazing. But he delivers the best joke about him telling the room to breathe normally when clearly, he isn't.

Peggy G

Now I can speak on the guest star at the end!! NBC wanted EVERYONE to be surprised, so they didn't include him in the credits at all & tried to keep his cameo as secret as possible ahead of airing so the finale would for sure be what everyone was discussing around the water cooler the next day.

MrRuss50

Does Joe still owe Kevin 20 bucks? Technically Kevin was only half right :)

Pam Nail

This was a hell of a mic drop. People describe that cliffhanger as some awful thing Sorkin did to the writing staff, but that was definitely not his intention. He thought it would be better to leave them with something to write their way out of, instead of leaving them with a blank page at the start of the new season. Kevin totally guessed the end last episode! Not the reason why, but that we'd have the President stepping down. John Goodman isn't in the opening credits for the episode. They wanted it to be a surprise, so they held it for the closing credits. I think it's a cool detail that Christopher Misiano directed this episode and that the very first episode of the show he directed was "Mr. Willis of Ohio," where Bartlet predicts the kidnapping scenario.

Weird Magic
>>140494039

In order to do that - John Goodman had to agree to be "uncredited" in this episode

Taylor

And thus ends the Sorkin era. I’ve seen this episode upwards of 25 times, and each time I’m left a mess when Toby talks to those babies. Naming the girl Molly, asking them to hold his hands, saying Leo was right…the gruff exterior just crumbles in the most perfect way. It also is the reason that the first comment I made after all four of my nieces and nephews were born was, “BABIES COME WITH HATS!”

Weird Magic

The Toby/babies scene apparently took forever to shoot because "actors" of that age can only work 2 hours a day - they had to swap out something like 6 versions of twins for that one scene. The "family footage" shown on the hospital TV in the background - Josiah Bartlet was acted by....Emilio Estevez. It was uncredited, AND he was not paid. Richard Schiff had a daughter that was two when this was filmed, she recently joined him acting in the finale season of his Good Doctor show (as an adult).

Weird Magic

Sorkin's famously said that watching the West Wing after he left would feel like watching someone cheat with your wife, so he never has. He also says he very rarely set up storylines for a long burn. With about 4 episodes left he decided he wanted to do the "25" as the finale, but to do that he had to get rid of Hoynes somehow. That's why that episode came out of the blue, and was contained within that one hour. It was to setup the finale. As for changes - you guys basically nailed it. I was in my early 30's during this run and had no idea who Sorkin was - didn't notice the changes. AND!!! Some of my favorite episodes are season 5 and beyond. I doubt you'll notice much of a difference. The host of the WW Weekly podcast (with Josh Molina as co-host) was a major Sorkinite. So much so - he stopped watching after Season 4. He was on a 1st watch for seasons 5 thru 7 too. My interpretation of his interpretation was that he was quite disappointed that he quit the first time :) The universe Sorkin set up and the actors etc were so solid, it was probably easier than most shows to keep at the high level.

Weird Magic

Originally airing on May 14, 2003, 'Twenty Five' is Episode 23 of Season 4 of The West Wing. It is the 89th episode overall and has an IMDB rating of 9.2, placing it as the #1 ranked episode of this season and #5 out of all the episodes shown so far. 89 down - 66 still to go!

Joy M
>>140490561

I’ve never hit refresh as many times as I did today!

Dr Ozzy

From what I’ve heard/read a lot of Sorkin leaving was essentially over the money to make the show. NBC realized the show had peaked in viewership and did not want to increase the budget and told Sorkin they needed to cut costs. A lot of the costs were around the fact that he insisted on writing the script almost exclusively himself and it would constantly be late (this was a big source of tension between him and Rob Low). Having all those expensive actors standing around was costing NBC a lot of money and they told Sorkin he had to change his ways. He told them that’s the only way he could work. And he walked.

Devon Cooper

There was trust for who was taking over. I am a huge Sorkin fan, but I hope you enjoy these upcoming seasons. Some people criticize, but I find them very very enjoyable and hope you enjoy them as well. Much more to love is coming your way. Just my opinion 😎😎

Roland Cooke

This episode is all really well done, but it has always felt to me like Sorkin was throwing a fuck-you Molotov as he was walking out the door. His scripts were always very last-minute, one of the reasons he was fired, so there was probably no chance to make changes, especially not on the magnitude that would have been required to go in another direction. Sorkin has since kind of sold it as offering a kind of a clean slate to the next showrunners, but to my mind it is basically the opposite of a clean slate. Another casualty of cause was Tim Matheson, since the story arc required his character to be torpedoed in order to set up a the Line of Succession crisis. I'm not saying the arc wasn't done well, but a brutal challenge to those that had to pick up the pieces. The first few episodes of S5 are inevitably bumpy (IMO), but the new showrunners really do get their act together surprisingly fast. S5 - 7 are really excellent overall. But John Goodman, man that was some inspired casting. :) > Emilio Estevez, Martin Sheen's son, has an uncredited cameo as the young Jed Bartlet in news footage shown in the hospital.[3] <

Weird Magic
>>140497969

well said on why Sorkin quit - although I don't think it was a FU to everybody, I do think it was an indifferent "don't care what happens"

Martin Nicholls

He had a great side role in Flight too, good in Blues Brothers 2000, he was great in too :) IDK I grew up watching Roseanne :p You absolutely need somebody with massive heft in that role and I think they nailed it with the casting choice. As for going forwards from here, you guys know it's controversial no doubt, I think post-Sorkin is underrated, but I guess we'll find out what you guys think - you have a completely different perspective on it to those of us who watched when it aired and it'd going to be interesting to see what you guys make of it.

Michelle Taylor

This show is like my security show. There's no way this could happen nowadays. I won't give anything away, but good things really do come in threes. The season premiere is just as incredible, if not better, than the last two episodes. I believe that the character of Mike, the FBI agent, is a standout and often overlooked asset to The West Wing.

Youtalkingtome
>>140500456

I didn't see it, so you're good. I completely missed on the kidnapping thing, though. It just made narrative sense while there was no VP and a Republican Speaker. What a great set-up to next season.

Youtalkingtome
>>140496292

I'm really excited for the next season. I'm not worried but I'm more curious to see how they're gunna handle it. This is a big storyline and it's bold that he ended his run where he did

Sarah P

“Babies come with hats.” 💜💜💜 I love that Sorkin ended his run with THIS MUCH character stuff with Toby. I say “stuff” because I don’t think that most of what we get from Toby over these 4 seasons *IS* development — it’s just us getting to know the man who was always there, because you need to spend time with Toby’s walls to get to know where all the secret windows are. This episode (and the one this dad) IS development, and I love him for it.

Youtalkingtome
>>140496789

Good for him. I like that he stuck to his guns. Good artists shouldn't have to compromise because a studio doesn't wanna put up the money

Skinny_Obelix

This episode is why Richard Schiff became one of my favorite actors. I don't think I've ever seen a better portrayal of becoming a father.

Youtalkingtome
>>140497969

Unfortunately we care what happens lmao! Can't blame him though. Whoever picks up the reigns is in a near impossible position!

Youtalkingtome
>>140499145

I'm super excited to see what happens. This show is incredible. Goodman should be in every movie in a supporting role

Skinny_Obelix
>>140497397

I enjoy future seasons as well, some of my favorite episodes still has to come. But it did lack the genius elegance of Sorkin in some story arch transitions. But it's still better than most shows on TV.

Cristy

I love John Goodman, the West Wing always has the best guest cast and this role is no different. His formidable presence is immediately felt. Absolutely agree with Kevin that he should've been nominated for an Oscar for The Big Lebowski. The acting on this show is always top tier but performances from Martin Sheen, Stockard Channing, Dule Hill and Richard Schiff in particular were amazing. Looking forward to getting into season 5, it's going to be a new adventure that's for sure! Thanks for all of your reactions so far.

Jeff

So here's a question (which you may not want to answer yet): do you wait until you're done with the entire series of "The West Wing" before you watch "The Newsroom", or do you start it now because you've finished all of Aaron Sorkin's episodes and you still need your weekly Sorkin-fix? (Unless you've already seen "The Newsroom"? I can't remember.)

Balazs Foldes

Hey, I'm so not a new patreon! But thanks for the shout out, anyway.

Jonathan

I decided to do something odd with your rewatch. I didn’t find your channel until you were two seasons in and I watched the season 1 recaps and decided to pause and jump in with these last 2 episodes. I wanted to see these last seasons without the Sorkin dialog fresh in my mind to maybe give the writers a fairer critique this time around because in hindsight the seasons to come are still much better than much of what has been on tv after the West Wing.

Youtalkingtome
>>140515628

It's not a "new" shout out anymore; we switched it for cool people like you who are in the new Patreon tier. You rock!

Youtalkingtome
>>140528820

We are very much looking forward to the coming seasons; while we expect it to be different without Sorkin's voice, we don't expect a significant drop in quality; there are still incredibly skilled people working on this show after he left.

Joy M
>>140499997

Just caught an old episode of SATC where he played a guy pretending to be a doctor to sleep with Miranda who was pretending to be a stewardess.

D Gyre
>>140528820

they'll be good new things brought into the show as well, and still lots of GREAT television ahead. Some of my favorite arcs and episodes are in the later non-sorkin seasons.

Youtalkingtome
>>140502823

You know, Sorkin ending his time with Toby here is very sweet. You can tell that character meant a lot to him

JVTrickypants

Just a funny story. When Sorkin and Schlamme told the cast they were leaving at the end of the season, the whole cast discussed if they should all leave the show as well. Joshua Malina said, "Ummmm, I just got here so I vote we keep going."

JVTrickypants

John Wells, who got the show made because of his clout with having done ER, takes over the rest of the series. He wrote the first two episodes of next season because he didn't think it was fair to put that pressure on the writers. As has been said, it can be uneven, but it's still better than the majority of shows even in their best seasons.

Weird Magic

I almost forgot - Season Finales get Emmy Results! 9/21/2003 Programs with most major nominations: Sopranos 10 Everybody Loves Raymond 8 West Wing 8 Curb Your Enthusiasm 7 Six Feet Under 7 Major Wins - 2 Drama Series - Sorkin/Schlamme et al (beat 24 | CSI: Crime scene Investigation | Six Feet Under | Sopranos) Directing - Chris Misiano for "Twenty Five" Other Major Nominations - 6 Lead Actor - Martin Sheen (lost to James Gondolfini | Sopranos) Lead Actress - Allison Janney (lost to Edie Falco | Sopranos) Supporting Actor - John Spencer and Brad Whitford (lost to Joe Pantoliano | Sopranos) Supporting Actress - Stockard Channing (lost to Tyne Daly | Judging Amy) Writing - Sorkin for "Twenty Five (lost to David Chase et al | Sopranos) Other Nominations - 6 Single Camera Sound Mixing Cinematography Casting Art Direction Guest Actor (Matthew Perry) Guest Actor (Tim Matheson) ***The West Wing won Outstanding Drama Series for the fourth consecutive year, tying the record set by Hill Street Blues (also later tied by Game of Thrones and Mad Men). And for those worried about the non-Sorkin universe of Season 5 - the 2004 Emmys they had 1 win and 11 other nominations...so not much changed.

Curtis Higareda
>>140505728

Can't wait for this! It'll be fun for you guys to catch all the "Sorkinisms" in his other work.

Katie

My thoughts on the show without Sorkin, I never noticed it for years. There is a tonal shift but the plot at the beginning of season 5 allows for it. Season 6 has good moments (amazing even) but is probably my least favorite season, but I absolutely love season 7. There are some INCREDIBLY amazing episodes in 5, and the humor doesn't leave just because Sorkin did either. You'll still enjoy the last few seasons I think.