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The West Wing, Season 5, Episode 10 (Patreon)

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2024-08-19 21:49:31
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2026-06
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Content

The Stormy Present

Comments

Devon Cooper

This episode has always been interesting to me. Also, going to see Lincoln, no matter what age is thought provoking and profound. There weee so many things happening when it aired and I felt like it showed the human reaction🤔

Michelle Taylor

Will working for the VP makes perfect sense. Will is a political strategist for the Democratic Party, emphasizing future initiatives to maintain Democratic leadership. Recognizing that the Vice President typically has a strong opportunity to succeed in presidential elections, Will is dedicated to preparing Russell for a successful campaign.

Martin Nicholls

I'm fairly sure this is one of my favourite episodes of the whole series. Not sure where in the running order, but it's up there. When I think of the show, this is one of the episodes if I reach for, it pops out near the top as memorable. Not hurt of course by the absolute litany of guest star actors where you know who they are without having to look them up on IMDB. I remember when you guys were reacting to Succession and talking about him, I'm not sure I might have even mentioned that I wanted to say something about Cromwell's body of work but couldn't at that point :) The Iraq war is a complicated beast - sans external parties being involved (weirdly enough, parties we're still having serious issues with today), I think that whole thing might have looked a whole lot different, mostly to the extent they misread Russia which is why the CIA is pushing a punishment and revenge strategy in Ukraine as opposed to enabling Ukraine to remove Russia - the two things are directly related with a line right through. The whole lets reinvent democracy in Iraq thing was objectively nuts though - depose the regime, then leave them to sort it out with whatever assistance they ask for is the right way to do that, rather than trying to impose a weird system that might not apply to the culture at the best of times. The problem is, I think, as it's something that's only occurred to me in recent years even though it's kinda obvious with hindsight - they (Bush, Blair et al) were enamoured with the story of Turkey post WW1. The issue is that democracy wasn't imposed on Turkey, it was the vision of a great Turkish leader (Atatürk), with the support of the UK for as long as they needed it. Even within that vision without continuing support these things can crumble so quickly, you just have to look at the damage Erdoğan has done to democratic legitimacy (again, by the way with the support of that one same group of powers that ensured that Iraq could never be a stable democracy) without really any opposition to see how quickly it can all come tumbling down if there isn't a constant and consistent will to keep it alive; and I think that's partially the point of the episode. The letter he writes they kinda skip over but I have a rough idea what he says in it about fundamentalist Islam, and, uh, he aint wrong..

trenton gragg

The actress Bellamy Young, portraying Marylou Meriwether, would go on to star as the First Lady on another White House tv show Scandal. Actresses Melissa Fitzgerald (Carol) and Mary McCormack just released a new book “What’s Next”. A look at the cast, crew, production and inception of the series.

Jeff
>>147034289

My copy of that book just arrived an hour ago! And thanks for mentioning Bellamy Young, because I just started watching "Scandal" and couldn't remember where I'd seen her.

Jeff

This is one of my favorite episodes; the writing is exceptional and the guest cast is so memorable. Regarding season five, I don't think it ever "jumps the shark"; it's just less consistent in quality and tone. Next week's episode is, for me, an example of a failed attempt, which I'll talk about after you see it. There are a few more episodes this season that just feel "off", but the majority of this season is quite enjoyable and thought-provoking, and one is the absolute best (you'll see!). That being said, I've been looking ahead to season six, and I am SO excited for you guys to watch those final two seasons of this tremendous show. You have so much quality ahead of you.

ScarlettMi

Have either of you guys watched any of Sorkin's series', The Newsroom? It does touch on some of the subject matter that you were mentioning you'd like to see Sorkin's take on. It's not The West Wing, but it has its moments.

Youtalkingtome
>>147029269

He wasn't wrong. It was a list of things that went wrong and well here we are. Also, you're not wrong about this being one of the best episodes. I will return to this one over and over.

Brian Harris

Wondering if you guys picked up at all on a subtext that Lassiter’s death may have been a suicide. He was getting older and sicker, possibly losing his faculties a little bit: the battlefield fixation, the constant phone calls, sleeping in the model of the Oval Office. Walken sort of implies that his closeness with Lassiter faded when Lassiter started getting strange. But the thing that seals it for me is Lassiter just happening to leave a note in his desk for Bartlet just before he dies. Why wouldn’t he just mail it? Why would he leave it in his desk if he didn’t know it would be found, and the circumstances would be so serious that Jed would have to read it? The family would keep it quiet, of course. Maybe even Jed wouldn’t be told … although by the end I bet he’s figured it out. Through that lens, this episode becomes about the sacrifice of service. The loneliness of power. That’s why there’s a focus on Leo’s chair after he gets up to greet Mallory as they’re talking about a sacrifice he made to serve (his marriage). The chair is his position of service, dominant in the center of the frame, just as it dominates his life. It cuts immediately from that to Taps, and the folding of the flag. This is one of the more sophisticated narratives in the show’s history, and for my money, it’s the high point of a mostly mediocre season.

Aude M
>>147034289

Josh Malina is also one of the main (regular ?) characters on Scandal ;)

Weird Magic
>>147034289

The guy who plays the President on Scandal (Tony Goldwyn) spoke at the DNC last night - Scandal was good not great IMO - Kerry Washington was great though

Weird Magic

Will leaves his position as a speechwriter working for Toby ("I'm working for a guy whose working for a guy whose working for THE guy"), to being the Chief of Staff for the VP, which would technically be working for the guy working for THE guy? He's maybe eventually the next "Leo to Jed"....I'm not sure that's not a fairly big step up? Amy also left a prestigious position (Chief of Staff for the FL) for...no job? It doesn't feel like you were against her decision to leave but don't understand why Will would? Is there a difference between the two decisions?

Weird Magic

I personally like S5 as much as the other Seasons - but unlike others that have posted this episode is not one of my favorites. It was (IMO again) not veiled enough from the events happening at the time to not feel like a political advertisement against the Iraq War. One of the reasons I love WW so much is that most of the time I didn't get that feeling, but this was fairly overt, and that might be why it is IMDB rated so low despite the amazing guest stars and dialogue/sets/etc. Or maybe people didn't like C.J.'s gait. :) Originally airing on January 7, 2004, 'The Stormy Present' is Episode 10 of Season 5 of The West Wing. It is the 99th episode overall and has an IMDB rating of 7.5, placing it as the #19 ranked episode of this season and #95 out of all the episodes shown so far.

Weird Magic
>>147073090

For context - per Wikipedia - the Iraq War started with "shock and awe" on March 20, 2003.

Joy M
>>147034289

My book just arrived too. I also have a commemorative Time magazine that came out at the end of the run of the show. I was thinking of sending it to Kevin and Joe when we get to the end (no spoilers). If they have a PO Box, I’d be happy to do that.

Joy M

Kevin: Estes Park tshirt, Diet Dr Pepper, and a big nerd who loves D.C., you are a man after my own heart.

Danielle

I think maybe you looked at Will as a replacement for Sam when Will never saw himself as that; Sam and then Toby did. Will came in to help out at the White House and stayed because he thought he was doing real work there and it was valued but he also understood this was a temp gig as any gig in the WH is. Will was always someone who was looking out for the future of his party and the ideals not necessarily the cult of personality of a leader whether that was the Senator he got elected ("he's dead but not the ideals") or the President or Bob Russell. So when Russell comes to him, despite his misgivings of him being the VP pick, he also knows that the future of the party is incumbent upon this man as the presumptive nominee in 2 years and he's asked to shape that political future and that's something that Will has consistently taken seriously - remember when he turned Sam's race over to the DNC because he's like this is who you want to run your race, not me, I got you where I can, I'll step aside so you can get the best of the best. So I don't think his storyline is outside of the lines for Will, I think it's just against the grain for the idea of him being Sam's replacement. Will is consistent about how he cares about the future of the party, in both ways big and small and state elections to national elections, throughout the series and involves himself in it throughout various ways and this is just one of the ways we see that. He's thinking about what comes next; he was never a part of the Bartlet presidency, he is a Democratic party strategist. And to be honest, being Russell's Leo would not be a step down at all. Sam was an idealist, too, but he never had Will's strategic abilities and in some ways that's why Will is actually a really interesting mix of some traits of Josh and Sam and his own sense of activism and what that looks like on a political mind who's not confined to the accomplishments of the Bartlet presidency.

Joy M
>>147073090

At the time this aired, network tv didn’t have many sophisticated and nuanced shows. Those shows were mostly on cable.

Joy M

They make it sound crazy to visit battlefields and honor those who gave the ultimate sacrifice. They also make it seem crazy to have a model Oval Office in a presidential library. I’ve only been to one, Carter’s in Atlanta, and it has an Oval Office with the red phone and Carter’s Nobel Peace Prize. I don’t see anything wrong with either of those things, now sleeping in there….that’s different.

Youtalkingtome
>>147092979

The only presidential library I have visited is Bill Clinton's in Little Rock, and it also has a model Oval Office.

Paul T Hewes
>>147052938

Newsroom is pretty dang good, though if you ask Keith Olbermann, he would be annoyed at Sorkin's theft of stories (without credit) and his employee...

dys
>>147092979

I've also been to the one at the Carter library in Atlanta! Maybe not a great/effective president, but probably one of the best human beings to be president?

dys

I came to The West Wing late to the party, I started watching it in the aftermath of the 2016 election as an escape to an actually competent administration. And I was watching this season around the time I decided to actually spend time in DC as a tourist, after Charlottesville but before George Floyd. I didn't know anything about the behind-the-scenes drama of Sorkin leaving, and I didn't even know the fandom ranked these seasons lower than the previous ones, but I still noticed it being more uneven like you said. But even at its *worst* it is still excellent television, and the final season is one of the most satisfying wraps to a long-running series I've ever seen.

Weird Magic
>>147073090

Agreed - but West Wing was sophisticated and although leaned left (and everybody knew it) it was nuanced. This episode failed to me in the nuance. Of course, it was correct IMO in predicting how the War in Iraq would go, but I expected more out of WW.

Youtalkingtome
>>147137197

That's so encouraging to hear. We obviously are finding this very late but still, I think this remains one of the most important shows ever made. Everyone should see it

Youtalkingtome
>>147062848

No I didn't pick up on that at all. Would like to discuss that going forward. I love that subtext. Very complex, even for this show.

Youtalkingtome
>>147073090

I think us watching it 20 years down the road, we see it in a different light. Obviously we are removed from when it aired and to see how things actually played out makes this episode more profound.

JVTrickypants

As somebody who started it from it's original airing on NBC, but who also didn't have the knowledge we now do about Sorkin and Schlamme's brilliance, I never had a huge issue with the 5th season. As I learned more about the way that the writing was handled by John Wells (he insisted on writing the first couple of episodes because he refused to give it to his writing staff). So that gave the writers to not only get a bit on their feet and come into their own (even more so later on), but also learning a COMPLETELY new writing process than what Sorkin would do. He'd ask for policy papers on certain topics, they'd submit them, and what most shows would use for a half season arc, Aaron would grab all those topics and shove them into one episode. That's not a knock, because obviously he is brilliant and it made the show work, but going from that to a more "normal" writers room where whole stories were submitted and discussed amongst Wells and the writers was a big difference than putting your work in a basket and seeing how Aaron would use it the next episode. Season 5 is not without it's faults, but I will say by season 6 and season 7, I believe they brought the writing quality right back up to what it was before Sorkin left. That's a huge testament to John Wells and his ability to lead a team of writers and actors through tumultuous time like that when the main people left the show fairly unexpectedly.

Youtalkingtome
>>147239567

I think that's amazing. Especially since they are working in two completely different ways. To be able to match the tone and stay true to the characters is no small feat.

JVTrickypants

I also admit I gave John Wells fairly short shrift when he took over....assuming he was a "numbers crunching" kind of executive producer mor worried about making money than the quality of the show. I have listened to him do many interviews with The West Wing Weekly and other outlets where he explained he absolutely knew the challenge the team was facing, and so wouldn't lay it at their feet in the first few episodes. He also was apparently extremely gracious with the staff as their roles adjusted and provided them contracts above the terms that might have been the industry standard. Wells is a good, creative, decent dude.....and shows like ER, TWW, and even Shameless show he knows what he's doing. Not to mention the fact that it was only his massive pull with NBC during the ER run that let him bring in a guy like Aaron and get a show about politics approved on network TV, which had NEVER succeeded. I like when people who gain some power/pull use it in ways that increase the landscape of shows into new and different areas.....rather than putting it into a fifth hack 30 minute comedy with someone like Tim Allen. This was also before things were really starting to explode outside of the networks, so his willingness to trust an audience to be smart enough to follow the show, and not dumb it down, was a big leap of faith that thankfully has been proven right in many different entertainment fields (Lin Manuel said he realized by watching TWW that he didn't need to slow down his dialogue for the songs, because audiences are smart enough to pay attention and keep up when you give them something brilliant worth watching.

JVTrickypants

After having said all of that, there is an absolutely cringe moment at the beginning of the next episode that in no way belongs in this show, and I'm sure in retrospect it would have never happened.

D Gyre

I think 'a little more uneven' is a great way to describe this season. The quality is there for sure, and I think pretty much the rest of this season is more consistent and then things get EVEN BETTER!

D Gyre

So, I do want to make a bit of a real world comment here. Not to say we should/shouldn't have been there or take any particular stance, and especially not to defend Cheney, but simply to provide information. During the invasion of Iraq we were greeted as liberators by much of the country, particularly in the southern Shia areas, people did greet US troop positively, were happy to be liberated from Saddam. Depending on the particular part of Iraq you were in that certainly didn't continue, nor were a lot of the policy choices post invasion greeted with the same enthusiasm. But it is true that a significant portion of the population greeted US troops as liberators for the initial invasion and the (very limited) opinion surveys done in that period showed more positive sentiment.

Youtalkingtome
>>147286774

For sure. In some parts it was still absolutely terrible for people. Saddam was not a good guy. Just how we ended up getting there...

shawn Johnson

On a side note, you guys should definitely do a Patreon on MASH! In the movie, Hawkeye is played by Donald Sutherland. Frank Burns is played by Robert Duvall.

Baeziii

Personally, I think the last shot at the Memorial is the best in the entire show, and that means quite a lot.