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The West Wing, Season 2, Episode 18 (Patreon)

Published:
2023-06-28 17:04:16
Imported:
2026-06
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Content

17 People

Files

Previews only

The West Wing, Season 2, Episode 18

17 People

Comments

MarkyO

LETS GOOOO.. I think it's time I took a break from work right?

Zachary Loeser

Just starting to watch this reaction but after the teaser: remember that Jed told Leo he’d promised Abby he would only be in office one term. That and the MS is all Leo knew going into this episode.

jimmy2k4o .

Here we go we’re in the home stretch now. None stop quality until 2x22 which may well be the great single episode of tv ever made.

Aude M

:o :o They couldn't wait until tomoooorrow :D

Weird Magic

Such a GREAT episode to kick off the final 5 episodes of Season 2 - and the most decorated actor of the ensemble didn't even appear in it! Originally airing on April 4, 2001, '17 People' is Episode 18 of Season 2 of The West Wing. It is the 40th episode overall and has an IMDB rating of 9.0, placing it as the #5 ranked episode of this season and #6 out of all the episodes shown so far.

Pam Nail

- This is genuinely my favorite episode of the whole series. It's not flashy, but there's no better example of what the show is and what it can do. And it's a great "shit just got real" episode. Also maybe the best cold open (at least so far). - This was definitely a "bottle" episode. The show was over budget and they asked Sorkin to write an episode that wouldn't need guest stars, location shooting, etc. But it's the epitome of "necessity is the mother of invention." - Allison Janney wasn't in this episode because she took a few days off to go film her role in The Hours. - Richard Schiff is the absolute MVP here. He has the job of selling how serious this is, and we don't buy the stakes of whatever happens next if he missed the mark in this episode. Which obviously he doesn't. - [ETA: deleted link to web comic for this episode because it has some details we haven't learned yet.]

JVTrickypants
>>111722418

WARNING ON POSSIBLE SPOILERS ON THAT WEBSITE!!! (Like a slight one in the second sentence lol)

Joy M
>>111719747

Oh man, you’re right Janney didn’t appear in this one.

sandrinegeller

I think Toby was absolutely in the right. Bartlett is a good guy, but if anyone was self-righteous here it was him. He made a mistake and he's struggling to fully own up to the bad thing he did. Lying to get elected about something that serious is upsetting and wrong whether you like the result or not. Also I hated the whole ERA thing. Why did they make Ainsley seem so right in the end? I respect she has a different opinion but it was weird to make it seem like Sam couldn't counter that argument.

Jack

Re: your questions about autism early on, there is a British TV series called "The A Word" which depicts an autistic child pretty accurately. But it's not exactly a worldwide blockbuster. The thing about depicting autism accurately is that autism is not just a linear spectrum as in "more" or "less" autistic, it actually includes a wide variety of traits any of which may be more or less present in an autistic person. One person may be "very" autistic in the sense that they may be completely non-verbal, but they also may not experience meltdowns at all. It also typically presents very differently (and is consequently severely underdiagnosed) in girls compared to boys. Autism typically presents with a mixture of several of the following: - social communication challenges (i.e. speaking and listening); - social interaction challenges (i.e. empathy and social cues); - repetitive and restrictive behaviour; - over- or under-sensitivity to sound, light, touch, or taste; - highly focused interests and hobbies; - extreme anxiety; - meltdowns and shutdowns. So, for example, my son is autistic and he presents with social communication challenges, social interaction challenges, repetitive behaviour, and highly-focused interests and hobbies; but he doesn't have particularly strong sensory traits, and doesn't often have meltdowns or shutdowns. So a depiction like that in A Beautiful Mind might be quite accurate for my son, whereas a depiction such as The Accountant (which leans heavily on the light/sound sensitivity and meltdowns) is actually not that bad either but nothing like my son. It's also worth noting that autism may not always make for great films! As Fern Brady (an autistic comedian here in the UK) said, when asked whether autism is a "superpower" as some describe it: "Would it have made a good film if, instead of having superhuman strength and being able to fly around the world on a whim, that Superman instead monologued at you about the 1960s poet Sylvia Plath, at length, with no ability to register your disinterest in any way, shape, or form?"

jimmy2k4o .

The vaccines causing autism was started by Dr Andrew Wakefield in the uk. He said the MMR vaccine causes autism and created a big panic. Very quickly the BMA (British medical association) corrected this lie and Dr Wakefield was eventually struck off (no longer allowed to be a doctor) As mark Twain said a lie can get half way around the world while the truth is getting it’s boots on. Also he said it’s far easier to fool someone than convince them they’ve been fooled. It lead to a small spike in measles mumps and rubella in the uk year later for the kids who weren’t vaccinated but no serious consequences that I know of. I like a quote from veep a politician addressing anti vaxxers “vaccines kill people, that’s Just science, but do you know what else kills people, diseases.”

Mithroch

The Netflix show you are referring to is Atypical. It is a pretty decent representation of someone with ASD. What was great about the show in later season is that they brought in actors that are actual autistic individuals. Highly recommend. The Korean drama Extraordinary Attorney Woo also tackles autism in a country that has much less advocation. It sort of borders between Atypical and Rain Man as far as depiction. Woo always seems to come in clutch with some insight to save her case... but it does do a great job of exploring how she develops relationships with people.

jimmy2k4o .

The bourbon thing is wrong Congrass passed a bill stating bourbon has to be made in the USA and have a mash count of at least 51%corn mash If you brewed bourbon in New York and used a mash of at least51% corn then it’s legally bourbon. If it has less than 51% then it’s just whiskey. All bourbons are whiskeys but not all whiskeys are bourbons. Like scotch, it it isn’t made from barley grown in Scotland then it’s not scotch. At the time this aired Bartlett may have been right, but I don’t think so, for example Jack Daniel is whiskey because it has less that 51% but they originally call it whisky for branding purposes. They fought to make sure that their JD wouldn’t be reclassified as bourbon because they feared it hurt their sales, lobbying etc. I’m Scottish btw Knowledge about this spirit is in our spirit. Thousand generations of whisky drinkers behind you will do that to you.

Jack
>>111729482

It's one of the stronger arguments which any Republican in this whole series makes, and Sorkin does have to give them a win every so often...

jimmy2k4o .

This is a fan favourite because toby and Bartlett square off and Tony wins. Up until now we’ve seen Bartlett been less than perfect but not 100% wrong and hostile when confronted with the gravity of his decision to protect his medical privacy

Mithroch

I've never really sat down to figure out my favorite episodes... but any list of my top five would have to include 17 People. I rewatch this episode probably more than any other. The build up at the beginning as Toby is trying to work out what is going on... slowly escalating as Bartlet reveals and expounds on his MS... and boiling over as Toby lays out the gravity of the situation. Fantastically constructed and brilliantly executed. On the side... Josh and Donna's story serves wonderfully to lighten the storm clouds brewing in the other room... ending with one of their sweetest, most endearing conversations to date. The rest of it... the correspondence speech and the ERA... eh... it feels kinda forced sitcomy. It's probably better than I think, but it just gets overshadowed by everything else. Most importantly... this episode starts the ball rolling right to the end of the season.

jimmy2k4o .

FDR had polio Kennedy had addisons while other chronic pain issues. LBJ had a bad heart Nixon had blood clots Reagan had altzimers Trump was crazy, maybe bipolar or narcissistic personality disorder Biden is in the early stages of dementia, at best. Wilson had a stroke and his wife ran the country while he recovered. Making Edith Wilson the first female president, unofficially. In the uk we had king George III or mad king George (you guys remember him, you kicked his ass) he was crazy, he’d shake hands with tree branches and thought he could see Germany through his telescope. Luckily for us our king/queen doesn’t get allowed to do anything, or make decisions. The king does all the ceremonial stuff. The PM actually runs the country, our PM is like a more powerful version of the majority leader in congress. Pm and cabinet are the executive branch Commons and lords (parliament) are legislative. And the courts are separate of-course and judges need to be impartial, if they’re suspected of being unfair they’re in big trouble. But that means that they often make decisions that we can’t do anything about. I’ve seen judges let a murderer go free because she was a medical student and had a bright future. I’ve seen judges rules that babies have to die because of diseases they have, even if the parents object and the pope/trump is offering to fly the child to their country for treatment. The judge believes the baby was terminal and pain was being prolonged unnecessarily, and there was no hope of treatment. Even though the pope and trump are offering a treatment that wonderful uk free health service doesn’t offer and refuses to buy because they don’t have the money because it’s publicly funded and MPs/congressmen aren’t gonna vote to raise tax to give them what they need, because they might lose their seat. In the USA there’s a fundamental right to privacy, what is more private than your medical situation??? Why does doctor patient confidentiality get legal protection? Where in the constitution does it say the president must relinquish all rights to privacy, free speech, freedom of worship so on and so on. A pet peeve of mine is when people hold public figures to higher moral standards than they hold themselves. “They should be held to a higher standard” “Higher than what? You? Ergo you are held to a lower standard while you take pot shots at the president while the president is conventionally forbidden from responding in kind” It’s funny that you guys (American, not you two) mock us for our old fashioned royals, yet you treat your president very similarly to how we treat the king and the king has no power, no serious duties and gets little public attention”

Jack
>>111738469

Anyone running for President should disclose if they have a medical condition which would (a) affect their performance of that job, and (b) is degenerative. It's reasonable to say that it's private if it doesn't affect their ability to do the job; and it's sort-of reasonable to say that they don't need to disclose it if it's not degenerative (because everyone elected them on the basis of their ability already accounting for whatever impact the medical condition was having). But they're elected for 4 years, and if they know that their performance in year 3 may be substantially worse than their performance in year 1, then people should be able to take that into account while voting. Ironically I actually think this works in Trump's favour and against Biden. I hate Trump, and am content with Biden; but in fairness everyone knew they were voting for a crazy narcissist when they voted for Trump, they didn't know they were voting for someone who was losing it when they voted for Biden. Of course Biden may not have known either, in which case of course he couldn't disclose it, but he's running again in 2024 and hasn't disclosed anything yet...

Devon Cooper

This episode starts the tangent and things JUST got real😎

Luca Siracusa (Bob)

Many people commented about the Autism thing or the MS thing and they know a lot more than me, so I want to take about a totally different topic "It was 17 people by the way. You knew" this is what changed the mood in that room. I loved how you guys thought Josh or CJ or anyone else would've been the 17th to know about MS and you didn't think backward about the first one knowing It was a thing hidden in plain sight and they made us all walk into it without knowing Toby has every right to be mad and to make all the comments he did in this episode: he had the right to be snarky, to be stubborn, to be aggressive and even to be a little disrespectful But it is Bartlet the one that's dealing with MS. While the world is reacting towards it bit by bit with Leo, the surgeons, Toby and probably more in the future, he is the one responding towards MS as a disease and not a political news He's the one with the attacks, the episodes, fighting not knowing when and where it's going to turn from Relapsing Remitting to Secondary Progressive and then into death. He's going to die eventually, probably before everyone he knows and love, way sooner than he would've if he didn't have MS. He's still in good shape and with a brilliant mind, but he knows his time is limited For maybe the first time in who knows how, Toby acknowledges that: he may have been angry, but it's Bartlet who's fighting the hardest battle. And as angry as Toby can be, he feels he has no right to deny Bartlet the respect and recognition for his own internal fight. It's incredible how such a small scene, about three lines of dialogue, could mean so much in a tv show, and in this tv show. So, after fastening your belts and putting your helmet on I say to you guys: are you ready for the rollercoaster? I think you're not, but it's already started and you can't stop it

Brendon Waldron

I love this episode, what I love even more is that it was written to be a cheap episode in order to save money. A weaker show would just do a "we're trapped in an elevator!" type of show, or worse, a clip show, and The West Wing goes and makes one of the best episodes of the series. Obviously all the stuff with Jed, Leo and Toby talking about the MS was great, but what makes it even better for me is that there's also some sort of crisis going on somewhere that they also have to deal with, because its never just one thing, it's several things at once, and this man needs to be at his best to deal with at all. It's just another layer to the drama that I appreciate...

Peggy G

Y'all get to meet one of my favorite side characters in the next episode!! (🔨 ) 🤗🤐🤫

jimmy2k4o .
>>111772440

I would have liked if after Bartlett apologized to Toby (despite saying he wouldn’t) tony responded with “how are you feeling sir?”

jimmy2k4o .

I would have liked if after Bartlett apologized to Toby (despite saying he wouldn’t) tony responded with “how are you feeling sir?”

jimmy2k4o .
>>111782596

“I want you to do a public service announcement encouraging women not to go hiking, or at least, not ask me to go with them” That actor was fantastic in 2008’s “Frost/Nixon” too. Not to mention bicentennial man.

Weird Magic

Personally - I'd love to have Joe and Kevin discuss at the beginning of the next episode if Bartlet SHOULD run, not IF HE WILL run. Now that they know he has MS before an election cycle, that's a much more layered conversation...as well as maybe if or when the MS will go public or not?

Jack S

will we get succession today?

Taylor

Politics was always my dream. I started volunteering on campaigns before I was old enough to vote. In high school, the running joke was that I was going to be President one day. Then I got diagnosed with Lupus. It’s also a chronic illness that can be very unpredictable. Usually I’m fine, but when things get bad, I can be totally out of commission for days. I realized that actually being a candidate might not be a good idea because I just wouldn’t have the stamina to be “on” all the time, and stress exacerbates things. I ended up behind the scenes as a staffer for candidates and elected officials instead. I’ve always loved this story arc because it’s interesting to see people debating something that I personally debated for myself. And I’ve always felt that the reason Bartlet gets so angry is because he knows Toby is right. It hurts to hear the truth sometimes.

Youtalkingtome
>>111732543

Thank you for all this. Knowing very little about it, this is very informative. It really doesn't translate well on screen. It is important and I wanna see representation, but it can translate in poor taste.

Youtalkingtome
>>111734194

I love a good whiskey. Particularly a good bourbon. To me true bourbon is from Kentucky. I like the scotch comparison. So many different types of whiskey out there! Don't go cheap!

Youtalkingtome
>>111821470

I love that you have this show as an outlet of sorts! That brings a whole other passion and care for it! Thanks for sharing!

Daywalker

This episode got me to buy several rubber balls so that I would always have one with me in case I had to think and work something out on my own.

Balazs Foldes

I need a good rubber thinking ball. It's so tempting. Though probably I would keep destroying randome items and furniture in my home.

Riesling

The acting in this epsiode is extremley strong. Specially when Toby confronts Leo and Bartlet with the hart truth and even when Bartlet is fighting back, you can see the doubt in Leos eyes as he realizes Tobys points are valid. I also love the scene between Donna and Josh. "If you were in the hospital I wouldn´t stop for red lights", that hits right in the heart.

Victoria E (vickster5001)

Finally have some time to catch up and see you are done with season 2. I love this ep. Easily in my top 5 with the balance of the high tension and the comedy. Richard Schaffer is so good her and I’ll always love Donna’s red lights speech. season 2 is just an incredible run of episodes.

Beth Blakely

If you put 100 people with Autism in a room, you're going to get 100 different stories and strengths and weaknesses. You're going to have people that you can't find anything "wrong" and people who are severely affected by it. Pretty much every portrayal of Autism in the entertainment world is truly representative of someone with Austism. But they're all completely different.

Cristy

I love this episode, it's probably the second-best episode of the best season of The West Wing (Two Cathedrals is definitely the best) in my opinion. Thank you, I really enjoyed your reaction. I was glad there were lighter elements throughout (the Ainsley and Sam banter was so much fun as usual) to balance out the severity of the Toby/Bartlett scenes. The acting performances, like you said, were brilliant. Richard Schiff definitely earned those Emmys. Also, I refuse to believe that Toby - the speechwriter - didn't already know the plural was Surgeons General ; )