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The West Wing, Season 3, Episode 23 (Patreon)

Published:
2024-01-02 02:27:47
Imported:
2026-06
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Content

Season 3 Finale: Posse Comitatus

Files

Previews only

The West Wing, Season 3, Episode 23

Posse Comitatus

Comments

Jake

LETS GOOOOO been waiting for this one

Taylor

Simon’s death scene is forever one of the most tragic things I’ve seen from a TV show. It’s also a payoff to what Anthony says to him when they’re talking, “You’re slow-witted. You’re not very bright, and the criminals can sense that.” The whole scene you want to scream at him to at least look around a little, but instead they just rip your heart out.

Martin Nicholls

It's a touch hard to believe that a Secret Service agent would be so unaware of what's going on around him, even semi off-duty. They need the payoff though so you have to let it go, but most of his behaviours would be pure instinct, so, no way he'd have just switched off like that :p It's fine though, it definitely works for what they were trying to do. Ritchie is a bit too much of a caricature for me - Sorkin has written some great Republican characters over the years, smart and dumb, which is why I think it's a let-down, I think he could have done better to be honest made him a little more plausible. There are a lot of covers of Hallelujah as you say, but that one, the Jeff Buckley one, is far and away the best - that's why everybody uses it lol. Also, Josh Brolin never worked with any of Martin Sheen's kids, though there is a tangential link through Wall Street and the sequel...

Michelle Taylor

I have observed this particular episode several times, and it is only upon my recent viewing that I noticed the strategic arrangement of red and white roses. The first instance occurs during the president's conversation with the therapist, while the second is prominently displayed in the Korean grocery store.

Jeff

I've been waiting to see your faces at the moments when Lily Tomlin and James Brolin show up, and you didn't disappoint! This is another amazing season finale, and perfectly sets us up for the next season. "The Wars of the Roses" is not a real musical, and I think I heard that Sorkin wrote the songs for the play, but I could be wrong. There was a deleted scene from the beginning of the episode in which Bartlett is singing his favorite song while shaving. He cuts himself, then stops and stares at the blood on his fingers, foreshadowing what is to come. Back in the Dark Ages when we first watched this on network tv, we did indeed have to wait an agonizing four months to begin season four. So you young whippersnappers better appreciate how easy your lives are now.

Max F.

While I prefer season 2, there are no arguments from me that season 3 is still tremendous and for me the tipping point is that the primary conflict was internal to the administration, which I just find more interesting. Considering 9/11 and the events unfolding in the real world, I don't think that external conflict could be avoided and I appreciate that fact that Sorkin kept the West Wing world sepate enough to use his idealized characters react to events that were reflecting what was happening. Of the two characters introduced in this episode, Debbie is my favorite. I was in high school when this aired and so my only real exposure to Lilly Tomlin was as Ms. Frizzle on the Magic School Bus. I didn't watch a lot of prime time tv until I was late into middle school and so this is one of the first times where I knew an actress from a completely different work and recognized them for it. I love that the reason Charlie is so invested in her as a candidate, is that she got him this job and now he has a chance to repay the gesture. Also, if you rewatch 'A Proportional Response', the name of the woman who sent Charlie to be interviewed is Mrs. DiLaguardia, so continuity! Rob Ritchie is a great example of the W. Bush version of Republicans and while James Brolin does a great job here, I prefer the more nuanced characterization of previous Republicans in the show. I personally believe that the West Wing is at its best when it keeps the real world as far away from the show as possible and Ritchie is just too close a facsimile for me. Compared to Mary Marsh, who I think was probably the most cartoonish Conservative character prior to this, it seems like a large jump in exaggeration. Season 4 has a lot of excellent moments coming up, the 2 part premiere is especially good. Trust me, you'll get all of the campaigning you could want, right out of the gate and straight through the election.

JVTrickypants

The Swingle Singers are a vocal singing group that are now known as The Swingles. I know that because they were on The West Wing Weekly podcast and recorded a version of the theme song to thank Sorkin for name tagging them in the episode.

JVTrickypants

Allison Janney said about this, “CJ can’t have nice things.” Also Janney was bumped by the extra and didn’t know it would happen. She said it pissed her off, which was perfect to bring out what she needed. She still doesn’t know if the director told the extra to do it or it was just luck.

Pam Nail
>>125931344

The song at the end (and the Bartlet sings in the deleted scene) is "Patriotic Song" from the Nicholas Nickelby musical that was on Broadway in the 1980s -- incidentally starring Roger Rees (Lord John Marbury).

Joy M

Did you guys catch the red and white rose motif throughout the episode? There are red and white roses on a table in the White House, then in the theatre for the War of the Roses (red for Lancaster and white for York), and in the convenience store when Simon is killed they get scattered around him. ps-I watched this right after the Rose Bowl.

JVTrickypants

I watched this after your last episode and what really hit me was how much happens in a very short amount of TV time. Simon gets shot with 12 minutes left and it had CJ of course, Josh and Amy argument, Leo and the President with the great dialogue and decision about Shareef, meeting Ritchie, then the great song and shooting. Amazing how how much is packed in there. Also, Sorkin on the live podcast for the episode and he said he still gets more grief about killing off Simon than anything, but he explained it had to happen in a writing sense. He quoted Chekhov I think, who said if you show a gun in the first act it has to be used in the third. Also, as he said, "Mark Harmon landed on his feet, guys! He went on to 20 seasons on CSI!!"

Joy M
>>125931344

I was surprised that Kevin and Joe didn’t see her name in the credits at the top of the show and comment on Lily Tomlin then.

Skinny_Obelix

I've seen this show so many times, and I can't seem to convince my friends here in Belgium to watch a show about US politics. So I can't tell you how much I enjoy these reactions, it really made me appreciate this show all over again. I found this channel because of the West Wing, and sure you're the only ones reacting to this show, but I can't imagine anyone better to tackle this.

Anna

Bartlett's "Not in the Oval Office" handshake moment and his general displeasure at the whole subject matter never felt like a fuck this terrorist, it's more him grappling with the idea of killing a man. He couldn't shake his hand before ordering his death. Bartlett has a deeply religious background and has had a lot of difficulty being responsible for death in his job. Remember how gutted he was not stepping in to stop the death row sentence.

Anna

Hoo boy I'm at Hallelujah and I'm crying like I'm watching it for the first time. Also I've been looking forward to "crime, boy I don't know" for so many weeks. Your reaction was exactly what I thought it would be.

D Gyre

that feeling when you start to notice a pattern to the season finales so far....

Balazs Foldes

I agree with you guys. The burst of scenes from the grocery store to the end of the episode, is just the most hard packed, intensive piece of television you see. Some of the tools might be simple and a little cheap (using Hallelujah, yeah, no.brainer), but they all works so well. (By the way, I was way less familiar with Hallelujah 20 years ago, so it did not bother me as overused). The way all those scenes are written, directed, edited and played, it just puts you in that special state. You do feel shocked, outraged, feel the injustice. And then Josh and Amy arguing does feel like pity and irrelevant, compared to a death and CJ sobbing. Then the meeting with Gov. Ritchie, yeah, interesting and so satisfying. Man, was is a little hard not to react to your speculations a few episodes before about a Broling playing him... And finally, the juxtaposition of that wonderful, uplifting, upbeat, triumphant song (...and victorious in war, shall be glorious in peace, man, hits hard) with the assassinaion, with the gunshots tied in with the drum rolls, and finally, the 'on a coin' shot of Bartlet's profile... it just hits like nothing else. Looking forward to Season 4! Sorkin left at the end of Season 4, so the next run is still on him.

Youtalkingtome
>>125929981

Yes, both Sheen's in the original and then Brolin in the sequel. Nice catch. However, I like that Ritchie is a caricature. They've set this character up to be a certain way and I think it tracks, plus I think he was trying to say something about who was in office at the time. About, Simon. It's not believable that he would be unaware but it's also not believable that he would have fallen for who he was protecting IMO. It's very well dramatized.

Youtalkingtome
>>125931344

I really wish they would have kept that deleted scene in. I get why they cut it but that would have been great. We purposely ignored the credits this time to not spoil the reveal of Ritchie!

Youtalkingtome
>>125931538

YES!! I like that Ritchie is dialed up. I think Sorkin was pissed about what was happening in the real world and wanted to make a statement.

Youtalkingtome
>>125932402

I knew it, happens all the time and it takes a great actor or actress to react in the moment and put it in the performance. Her and her character are brilliant.

Youtalkingtome
>>125933059

True, I wanna say it was a fun storyline that ended in tragedy. I'm sad but I also really love how it ended.

Aaron

I’ve seen this episode so many times yet just noticed they are seeing the play at the Booth Theater in NY. Named after Edwin Booth, brother to John Wilkes Booth. I feel like that had to be intentional from Sorkin.

Youtalkingtome
>>125934806

That's true. I had blinders on that one. It reminded me once of when my grandfather didn't shake a man's hand. My grandpa was very old school and respectable. Honestly Martin Sheen reminds me of him very much. He had an interaction with someone he knew was awful and didn't fight with him or even deny him the conversation. At the end the man went to shake his hand and my grandfather pulled away and just said, "I better not." That's always stuck with me and it's what I thought of immediately.

Youtalkingtome
>>125936989

We can't wait to approach this next season. I've never been more excited for a premiere. Hallelujah is over used to be fair. As long as it's being used correctly man is it powerful!

Cristy

I'm so happy Lily Tomlin is finally here! I was always a little underwhelmed by James Brolin's character though. But I know there is an amazingly written Republican played by a brilliant actor coming up in a few seasons so i'm okay lol ; ) They always use music so well and this is one of the best (I still love Brothers in Arms in the Two Cathedrals episode best though). I really can't wait until you watch the next two episodes (4x1 and 4x2), they are probably both in my top ten episodes of all time.

Mithroch

Yes... you guys did say Josh Brolin once... and we all held our breath.

Jack
>>125929981

Agree about the implausibility of Donovan not ensuring that everything is secure before proceeding, but I definitely think Ritchie is a reasonable portrayal of a Dubya figure - you can definitely imagine substituting Bush into that scene and it remaining realistic.

Jack
>>125934806

I definitely think you're right about how deeply reticent Bartlett is about death, including in this episode, but for that one moment I do think it's more about not shaking a terrorist's hand rather than not shaking the hand of a man he's about to kill. Just him specifically calling out the Oval Office under his breath makes me think this is more about the American President not honoring an enemy of the state rather than about Bartlett not wanting to shake the hand of his victim.

Kat Deuchars
>>125932402

Oh! I thought it was deliberate because the whole arc has been about strangers being a threat to her and this was the first night in weeks that anyone could get close enough to bump her

Weird Magic
>>125931344

We asked them not to read the opening credits for the last few episodes, so they thankfully did not. Mostly for the Ritchie reveal, but tangentially for the Deborah Fidderer reveal as well!

Weird Magic

This episode was my first exposure to "Hallelujah" and will always and forever be tied to it in my mind and heart. The Jeff Buckley version has no equal for me personally because of The West Wing. Other than that - I agree with everything everybody said above! REMINDER - if you can - Season 4 episodes 1 & 2 were part of a 2 hour premiere - they are only separate because of syndication - if you can watch them in one sitting, it is a more realistic rewatch to what we had on September 25, 2002. Originally airing on May 22, 2002, "Posse Comitatus" is Episode 22 of Season 3 of The West Wing. It is the 66th episode overall and has an IMDB rating of 9.1, placing it as the #1 ranked episode of this season and #6 out of all the episodes shown so far.

Weird Magic

2002 Primetime Emmy Awards - leader in most nominations (13) and most awards (4) WINS Drama Series Lead Actress - Allison Janney Supporting Actor - John Spencer Supporting Actress - Stockard Channing NOMINATIONS (Winner) Lead Actor - Martin Sheen (Michael Chiklis) Supporting Actor - Dule Hill (John Spencer) Supporting Actor - Richard Schiff (John Spencer) Supporting Actor - Bradley Whitford (John Spencer) Supporting Actress - Janel Moloney (Stockard Channing) Supporting Actress - Mary-Louise Parker (Stockard Channing) Directing - Paris Barclay "The Indians in the Lobby" (Six Feet Under Pilot) Directing - Alex Graves "Posse Comitatus" (Six Feet Under Pilot) Writing - Aaron Sorkin "Posse Comitatus" (24: 12:00 a.m. - 1:00 a.m.") John Spencer's emmy win on Youtube - "It (acting) saved my life" - I think he meant it. https://youtu.be/IUqsqIJrLkI?si=DZjOlF7foonIvhIi

Emma Rosen

Kevin saying “pithy” after Ritchie’s boy, crime moment took me out 😂 I really love this Josh and Amy plot line, because the show lays out both of their points well and for me at least I’m on both of their sides. It’s such clever commentary on life in politics and how two people with different views on an issue can both be “right” in their own ways but only one can “win” because that’s how the game is played. On the surface I completely agree with Amy’s views on the welfare bill, but when they’re fighting at the end of the episode you see why Josh has to do what he does and it makes perfect sense and it’s just so….real!

Sardonica61
>>125929981

I always took it as Simon was distracted. They caught his guy, so he relaxed about that. He just kissed CJ and that can put you into a euphoric tailspin. And he needed a candy bar!

Sardonica61

I've never enjoy watching your faces more than in this episode. The delight about Lily Tomlin, the romantic moments with CJ, the heartbreak of Simon's death, the oh-my-goodness of Brolin ... I feel less alone! I felt so bad that you two would have to experience Simon's sudden death!

Sardonica61
>>125933059

I feel a need to tease you just ever so slightly. A running joke on NCIS has been "Hey, you spelled CSI wrong!" and also, mostly from Tony, "You think you'll get used to it, but you never really do."

Sardonica61

Tomlin was a fan of the show and barely dared to hope for a shot as a guest star. In her own words ... "The language is very dense, filled with ideas and intelligence and observations and questions. And everybody's supposed to be extremely intelligent and fairly witty," she adds, with a small, self-mocking laugh. This is from a great short interview with Tomlin about her role. October 2002: https://www.theintelligencer.com/news/article/Tomlin-Fills-Void-on-West-Wing-10549569.php

Sardonica61
>>125963361

So ironic that Ritchie is telling Bartlett he is "weak" as Bartlett's order to assassinate the leader of a friendly government is being carried out. Ritchie is smug and superior, exactly what he accuses Bartlett of being. I shake my head every time.

Kat Deuchars

I love the Josh/Amy fight at the end of this episode. It's an argument about fundamental beliefs for both of them and (taken with Amy losing her job as a result of Josh's actions) demonstrates that they probably can't work as a couple long-term. But, then, Amy takes the call about Simon's death and her tenderness for Josh as she relays the news is palpable. And seeing a couple park their very legitimate argument in the face of a tragedy shows them as mature characters and contributes to this feeling like a mature TV show. *~* If you're ever curious how the streaming age contrasts, the Netflix show "Designated Survivor" rhymes with West Wing (and the Battlestar Galatica remake). But the characters are barely more than archetypes and their relationships are so shallow.

Kat Deuchars

I can't wait to see what you make of season 4 episode 5 or how you'll compare the season 4 finale to this one.

Sarah P

I do hope you guys have a way to fit in a double-screening of the two hour premier — the first two episodes of S4 really are one long story, and a lot of the things from part one get concluded in part two. It’s very much a 2-hour episode!

Sarah P
>>125934434

Loool, I made a friend in Australia because that guy was OBSESSED with US politics, and TWW. Had never been to the States, still hasn’t. I bet you could convince your Belgian friends!

Max F.
>>125931538

Yep! And she reprised the role in the reboot series a few years ago too!

Roland Cooke
>>125997480

The comparison of The West Wing with streaming as a whole is unfair and (IMO) inaccurate. House of Cards and very recently The Diplomat (showrun by TWW alum Debora Cahn) are both excellent political shows on HBO and Netflix respectively. The brilliant Andor (Disney+) is not specifically a political show, but it has heavy political elements, contributed by House of Cards' Beau Willimon and screenwriter / showrunner Tony Gilroy.

Kat Oliver

Allison Janney gave a brilliant performance without saying anything at all. Her getting shoulder checked by the passersby always kills me. Her and Simon had brilliant chemistry. Though any actor that worked with AJ (Allison Janney) had great chemistry. Allison Janney is such a brilliant presence

Zachary Loeser

I have the two volumes of selected scripts from the first four seasons. At the end of "Posse Comitatus," it reads: "There are men who haven't killed and men who have, and Bartlet will never be in the former group again." Such a haunting line, and you can totally see that moment - and what Bartlet is thinking - coming through on screen.

David
>>125934806

See, I think it is less about the the individual himself on the other end of the handshake and more about what the gesture historically symbolizes (peaceful intent). Bartlet is already struggling with accepting the need (for him/the nation) to commit an evil act in the service of good. "Not in the Oval Office" is Bartlet not wanting the setting & symbol of the nation's highest office (where he's asked to make countless moral judgements) to be home to what feels like an outright deception & betrayal of the nation's laws and his own personal morals. It's neither that Shareef is a terrorist nor that he'd be honoring an enemy; it's that it would be a corruption of this symbolic gesture of peace & trust from a person (and office) that depends on both in order to govern their own life and the nation.

Kat Deuchars
>>125997480

OK, I wasn't trying to say "streaming is bad' but I do think that writing for bingeing has changed what screenwriters prioritise. I'm too young to remember appointment TV (we had a VCR by the time I was 6) but I'd guess a lot of what kept people interested week-to-week and what has kept me interested in the time between seasons of shows I love was speculating about the characters. Whereas, watching 6 episodes or whatever on streaming, means we look at the development of the overarching plot and think about pacing in terms of a season, not just each episode. Also, I haven't seen the American House of Cards or anything on Disney+, I was specifically commenting on Designated Survivor (which I've seen all of) because it felt like they were attempting to do The West Wing for a new generation.

Anna
>>125934806

I really like that interpretation. What a great breakdown of the moment.

Roland Cooke
>>125963361

Reminds me of Obama smiling and joking at the Correspondent's dinner while the USA's highest ever risk covert operation is imminent.

Roland Cooke
>>125997480

That's fair, but in some ways streaming has helped writers since they are no longer forced to meet exact timings, including incorporating advert breaks and whatnot. Check out The Diplomat though*, I think you will find that it scratches some TWW itches, even if it definitely isn't episodic, more of a very long movie with restroom breaks.... :D *the Netflix one, apparently there's a different show that came out at the exact same time....

Youtalkingtome
>>125942058

Thank you guys for not saying anything LMAO. Speculating for this show is so much fun for us. We love how close we get and we love it when we are just completely wrong. It makes the reveals to be so much more satisfying.

Youtalkingtome
>>125978930

It was such an amazing episode. I've already watched it again this week and even on the second viewing I still love it so much.

Youtalkingtome
>>125997480

I agree, streamer shows feel more like long movies. Streamers aren't all bad but I think they are affecting movies in a negative way.

Arek Schneyer

I don't think it's weird at all to be pumped up by such a dark moment- when something is done as incredibly well as this, it is amazingly powerful and dramatic, and those things always make shivers go down my spine, no matter how happy, sad, light, or dark.

Martin Nicholls
>>125929981

"you can definitely imagine substituting Bush into that scene and it remaining realistic" - but that's because you buy into the caricature.

Paul T Hewes

"If this is a joke it's both funny and well executed, but we both know it wasnt a joke." That was a great GREAT line... -Congressman Lobell, who last appeared in Season 1 "Lies Damn Lies, and statistics" is a great character who steal scenes when he is in there. -knowing where things go, seeing you cheer for Donavan and CJ made me very sad. -"I bought her boss." The same tactic they used in the first 2 episodes to get Mandy derailed and fired. -"Hallelujah" was beautiful. Up there with "Brother in Arms". Still gets to me. -Allison won several emmys and she earned each and one of them. -The quiet conversation between Leo and the President was so well done. -Bernie Williams was the Yankee mentioned. -"Crime, boy, I dont know." What a goddamned yokel. -the last song over the airfield cut in, with his silhouette to end the season...A great episode.

Roland Cooke

I'm thinking Amy Gardner getting fired is identical(?) to what happens to Annette Bening's character in The American President.

Paul T Hewes
>>126147690

and what Josh did in season 1 early episodes to get Mandy fired and the Senator she was working for out of the picture.

Youtalkingtome
>>126134639

It's gotta be in my top 5. What a great finale and also start to what I'm assuming to be one hell of a race.

Youtalkingtome
>>126147690

I need to rewatch TAP. I've purposely not watched it since we started WW, because we wanna do it when we finish the show.

Lauren Purdy

The West Wing is my favorite drama ever, and I'm so enjoying your reaction! If you're in the market for another great series, consider checking out Friday Night Lights. It's phenomenal, and criminally underrated! Thanks so much for the content. :)

Tessa

This is the smallest detail but I love it so much: it's not in the episode, but in the script of this episode. After Amy tells Josh that Simon was shot and killed, Josh has a single line where he just asks "CJ?" it's so small, but I think it shows his worry about her safety so well, cause he wasn't in New York and has probably not heard yet that the stalker was caught already. He only knows that CJ was being stalked, and that now the guy in charge of keeping her alive has been killed, and I love that his first response to that is to ask about CJ herself.