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Mad Men 3x04 Reaction (Patreon)

Published:
2025-09-20 19:58:53
Edited:
2025-11-05 22:31:03
Imported:
2026-06
Tags:

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mad men 304

________________________ patreon - https://www.patreon.com/LMreactions twitter - https://twitter.com/LMreaction tv time - lola - skysstillblue, milena - oneofthe100

Comments

Julien

Damn, this is early. I love it. I know there's been some schedule disruption, so what does next week look like for Mad Men?

Jude’s IFs

Oh yeah, Sal’s wife has figured it out. Because of the time it did take her a bit but that’s the face of someone who realized her husband is gay

Jude’s IFs

Also in film language when oranges are mentioned it usually a sign for death

Julien

The schedule is for this week. But it does state that next week will be normal so it does answer my question. So next ep should be Thursday.

Julien

Hugely skeptical of this claim outside of the godfather and an additional reference/copycat or two.

bondbond53

Lola, you don't know Scarlett O'Hara? Of "Gone with the Wind"? One of the most important female characters in literature? Girls you need to either read the book or watch the 1939 legendary film

Sebastian

I love how they did that in the Godfather and everyone else just went with it. Fuck it, oranges mean death now.

Julien

It's not surprising that younger millennials wouldn't know her. The movie's cultural presence had faded a lot in the last two decades or so. I suspect growing distate for Lost Cause sentimentalism played a role. Also in the context of literature, she may be a US or anglosphere icon but there many literary traditions in this world and our reactors are Serbian.

bondbond53

The girls are 1 year older than me and from Eastern Europe like me so that's why I was surprised but I guess our countries have different curriculums of what is included in the foreign literature section

bondbond53

Yeah, ask Tony Soprano

Jude’s IFs

Which is why it became a thing… no need to be hugely sceptical of media making reference to one of the most influential movies of it all time, Julian.

bondbond53

Grandpa Gene is a minor character but he shows how well Mad Men is written. In one big swoop he: 1) Further characterises the previous generation (I mean the war he is talking about is WWI and like Milena said we are talking about a man from a century ago basically) 2) Gives us more insight into Betty's character and upbringing. In one exchange we understand even more about her and her brother's childhood - "Peaches give me a rash", "Your sister likes them" - William didn't have it sweet either. 3) Fleshes out the kids more and especially makes a very big impact on Sally and her maturation. Moreover, like you mentioned, he highlights the absence of Don as a father in their lives. 4) Represents an opposition to Don (he's one of the very few characters that can tell Don's lying and confronts him directly about it). The actor did an amazing job portraying him

Taya

One thing I don't understand is why Gene called Betty that? Is it just because Scarlett is moody and pouts a lot?

Jay Craig

I don’t know man. Gene said, to Betty’s face, a couple of scenes earlier that it was ‘our fault, how we raised you’ that made her, in his eyes, not aim high enough in her life. When he says to Sally ‘Don’t let your mother tell you what you’re capable of’ (or w.e. Paraphrasing) I don’t think he’s saying ‘don’t let your horrible mother clip your wings because she’s bad’, I think he’s saying to her, knowing he is not gonna be around for that part of her life to reassure her, that he knows the consequence of his raising of Betty could be that she inadvertently holds her down. You can argue the way he says it means Sally clearly won’t parse that nuance, but in his spot how else can he say it? The damage is already done with Betty- he thinks Sally could be standing in the path of a train he won’t be there to stop.

bondbond53

Gene says "You don't want to think about it, Scarlett O'Hara" Scarlett O'Hara was famous for saying "I'll think about that tomorrow." "Tomorrow, I'll think of some way to get him back. After all, tomorrow is another day."

Jay Craig

Also couple other things - I loved how Joan coaching Peggy on the wanted ad was framed like when Don pitches an idea for an ad campaign. I also just instinctively find it difficult to feel sympathy for nepo baby failsons. Yeah it’s sad he just wants to impress daddy. But, nah. Take the money. Let him learn.

Taya

Oh that's right! I completely forgot lol

Julien

Peggy roommate ad subplot is cute but I don't buy it for a fraction of a second. I just don't believe at all that Peggy, a talented copywriter, couldn't write a good ad for herself as a roommate and had to be coached by Joan. Not my favorite bit on writing on this show.

Taya

It's pretty common for parents to regret the way they raised their kids. My own parents were very different with my brother and I than they were with my two older siblings, and that was a ten year gap. Parents mature and change their attitudes as time passes just like everyone else. Gene recognizes where he went wrong with Betty, and doesn't want her passing on her limited/outdated beliefs (that he likely helped instill into her) onto Sally.

Kara

We see Don again be 'the voice of reason' and have loyalty and ethics beyond anyone else in the office. Of course in the end he gives in, but only after much effort. I think the father has a point: many rich parents realise too late their child is the product of an encriched, frictionless upbringing... of course "We're all trying to find the guy who raised them???" Don looks so much like his father sometimes, its uncanny casting. In the commentary, Matthew Weiner says that Gene is the only person who tells Betty that he doesn't like Don, while everyone else loves him. People often struggle with how much better their parents are as grandparents like wow, where was this kind old man when I was growing up? While his comments are a bit unfair I think there's are truths Gene senses... he's terrified Betty is raising Sally the way they raised Betty, that the poison will drip through. We've seen Betty be particularly obsessed with Sally's looks, weight, and her finding a husband... Kiernan Shipka (Sally) believes this is the first time anyone has ever told Sally she can "do anything" and that her mother "isn't perfect". So Gene is the only person telling Sally she can be more than just a housewife... an engineer, an artist, a copywriter looking for a roomate in Manhattan? The show is so well-made. The episode opens with a wide shot of the Draper house with Gene exiting its iconic red door, so when we see it again later we immediately remember. The news broadcast Sally watches is a subtle touch. We see the iconic photograph of the buddhist monk self-immolating in protest, then hear that the dow jones has dropped 2 points, then hear an upcoming ad for cigarettes. This is the mileu of Mad Men's swinging sixties, where horror and business and bright commerical advertising are blended into a soup and served to the nation every night at 6 and 11. Of course, Peggy gifts her 'ma' a new TV, so she can better enjoy it too (her mother knows Peggy will go from visiing every other day to every other week or month). It's one of the reasons I find a lot of modern TV storytelling so frustrating. It's A to B to C with no care or subtlety or appreciation for the rewatch, building tension, priming the audience. It's TV via Wikipedia Plot Summaries and Reddit Detective Analysis. Bonus thoughts: Kiernan Shipka (Sally) is on the commentary for this episode and she's so cute lol she's like 10 or something. Jai Alai is a real sport and "Patxi" was its real life star. Every set/location in the show is so beautiful, the restaurant Don meets Ho-Ho in is just exquisite and filled with hustling bodies and light and period props, it's that old school magic. Ho-Ho namedrops David Ogilvy, a real ad exec whose 1963 "Confessions of an Advertising Man" was a bestseller and one of the show's inspirations.

Kara

same as normal, we just got it a day early this week basically

Kara

@Julien: From the commentary "The basic conceit of the scene is that Peggy doesn't know how to advertise for herself, because noone does". I worked in marketing and think this is very true, of all disciplines probably. People are way better at giving advice than applying it to themselves. How many amazing project managers have chaotic home lives, when they could just treat their lives like a work project? How many pro writers struggle to write a bio for themselves when they have to? I've written resumes for friends who were soooo much more talented than me, but couldn't objectively sell themselves.

Kara

Gene fought in WW1 and Roger fought in WW2 and Don fought in Korea and soon the next bunch of kids will ship off to Vietnam and the cycles continues and feels like it'll never end.

JBK405

Gene's advice often isn't correct and his stories may not be appropriate for children, but he was the only person to give Sally the attention she needs and deserves. He was the one person whose ACTIONS show that he loves her, and that's what a child can understand. I do believe that Betty and Don mean well in their own minds, but for a neglected child that's less than nothing. So Sally just lost the one person that she can tell cares about her. "Jai alai" is a real sport, but needless to say it did not become a sensation in the USA. It originated in the Basque territory (Spain and France) and was first introduced to the USA in 1904. It still exists as a professional sport in some areas, but was never massively successful and in the modern day has fallen below the heights it did reach in the mid-20th century. I do find it fascinating how Peggy's sister took her side against their mother. Anita had so much anger towards Peggy in season two after the pregnancy -- if I recall correctly she actually confessed that she hated Peggy when talking to that priest -- but she's either put it behind her now, or has come to understand the role that their mother played in both of their lives. She sees that their mother is being pointlessly mean and hurtful, and she speaks up. Fandom consensus is never universal, but most fans of this show agree that this episode is where Sal's wife figures out that he's gay. The biggest dissenting opinion I've seen is that (continuing on their previous scenes) she realized again just how disconnected she is from Sal's life because he's energized about this work and she can't get involved at all. To answer your question about Joan's job, she is Head of Personnel (Or maybe Head of Staff, I forget the precise title). She is the supervisor for all of the office personnel, which mainly consists of the secretaries, switchboard, etc. She's MANAGEMENT (Which is why she was present in the big lineup when they were pitching to American Airlines in season two). The reason we see her still getting no respect is because of the innate sexism that says ANY woman in an office must be lower-ranking than the men, and because she doesn't fight back against it directly because it's not 'proper'. She does a lot of the unpleasant jobs herself (Like taking over as Don's secretary, and now dealing with the ants) because she wants them done CORRECTLY so nobody has any grounds for complaints against her.

Kara

On the commentary Matthew Weiner says Gene probably called Betty that a hundred times, oof.

Taya

@Julien, I don't think Peggy even thought to use her copywriting skills in the initial ad. It was very simple and direct. Joan then made her realize she should add a little flair to it to make her seem more attractive and fun as a roommate. Which was not a good idea because it's false advertising. Since when does a roommate also need to be your best friend? In many ways Peggy envies Joan's qualities and wants to be like her, but she isn't and never will be.

bondbond53

Yup, he was at least passive to the ways in which his wife Ruth was raising Betty if not actively a participant

bondbond53

SO glad we are past that obviously I mean it's 2025 amirite

Taya

Ah the infamous episode where Kitty finally realizes her husband is Italian 😔

Kara

Good stuff! On Anita, it's been like a year since those S2 eps to be fair. Her new baby is older, and she's probably relaxed a lot, and much more hyped that Peggy gets to be happy and live a life away from home. If it took peggy ~6 months to recover, then those S2 eps were only 1 year after the recovery and its all still raw. In S1 Joan is the head of the secretarial pool, and at some point before S2 gets promoted to Office Manager (her official title), but she retains her secretarial management duties.

Kara

I was JUST reading an old Reddit thread to double check joan's job title and someone said "remember that infamous scene where Joan kissed Sal and suddenly realised he was Italian?"

Kara

exactlyyyy we won Vietnam and war ended and things have been poggers ever since 🇺🇸🦅🇺🇸🦅🇺🇸 USA USA USA (im british)

Chris B

It's funny how I didn't even think to question why Gene was leaving the house with phonebooks in his hands. Then it cuts to him in the passenger seat and I think to myself - "oh"

Scott

War is hell, though young (and some older, ugh) Americans have forgotten what it's about and the reason autocracies are evil incarnate because people like Gene are all dead.

Scott

My grandfather did the same for me at 12 years old as Gene did to Sally here. He was dying for months physically but was quite healthy mentally and emotionally. He passed on all the thoughts and advice he could for the rest of my life, and I am always grateful. He was honest and said what he felt was best, regardless of his daughter (same as Gene) or other family/failings.

Mark M

Here's a video of Sal's Bye Bye Birdie compared with original https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4TqjpcZ4Ow&list=PLRpi_7YqQYwzcA9YnoCdrRfn1bApJe6fV&index=24 I've always wondered if Kitty actually suspects Sal is gay. She knows he doesnt want to have sex with her, so it's possible. I just don't know if her mind would go there. Everyone's reaction to the ad feels like it represents Sal - it looks right, it does everything right, but there's something wrong about it they can't quite put their finger on. Someone mentions it in the video comments, but Sal's version of the ad is campy and lacks sex appeal. There's none of the passion of the original, which was the initial pitch of the ad - reclaiming youthful looks and vitality. Sal represses himself and connects to the ad through this almost childish theatrical quality. It's uncomfortable and sad to watch even if you don't quite know why.

on crip ...

it could be that in the moment, kitty simply got the "ick" from how comfortably feminine sal was being. and only later considers any implications. even now, i'd not be surprised to hear someone say a man acting like that nullifies any attraction

Sebastian

Nah, she totally gets what's going on in that moment. Think about the story they're telling. It's about Kitty finally putting the pieces together. She looks as if her world has shattered, not as if she's grossed out.

Julien

She knows he is gay. The realization struck her while she watched him dance. It's really amazing that people think is is ambiguous. It's not. She knows. It's like a certain character in Breakings Bad having an epiphany while in the bathroom. It's not a suspicion: it's the kind of revelation where once the thought has crossed your mind, suddenly everything clicks into place and everything makes sense. It's a shattering revelation. She knows.

Mark M

Yeah I get that's the most obvious conclusion. I've just always liked the idea that she might not, and considering Lola had the same thought I figured I'd mention it. ROT13 - Cyhf jr arire trg n sbyybj hc jvgu Xvggl juvpu qbrf yrnir vg hc gb vagrecergngvba, ubjrire hayvxryl vg zvtug or.

Mike

Swedish, Norwegian, what's the difference? Point is, their people are nordic. I think Gene's talk with Sally is very sweet (and sad). Remember, he's just had a conversation with his daughter about his end of life arrangements, and Betty essentially shrugged it off, saying she can't handle this morbid stuff because she's (still) a little girl. On top of resenting Don in general, I think Gene can see the gilded cage that he's help build for his daughter, raising her the way he did and "letting her" marry Don. He wants Sally to have something more. (I am a sucker for "character goes around making all the necessary arrangements before they die" stories. This is a great one.) Love the scene of the adults mourning in the Draper kitchen. There's a version of that scene where they are more cruel about Gene, but they aren't. The "two wives in heaven" thing is actually kind of sentimental on Gene's part. That's a lovely memory for Betty to share. (And William's joke is really about Gloria.) But of course Sally can't understand that the adults *are* sad, and that they just have an enough perspective on death and Gene's life to joke and smile about it. I'm glad the show had enough faith in Shipka to carry that argument, because it could have been really stilted with a worse performance from the kid. Nope, she nails it.

Mike

Yeah this would only make sense if The Godfather had incredible, outsized influence on a whole generation of filmmakers, including the people who made this show. As if!

Erik D

I guess I must be an awful person for finding the prank call hilarious. Everything involving Lois is comedy gold.

Mike

Lol no, it's very funny. "Now, about the bathroom... I'm going to need some help there."

Mike

It's an interesting scene to pair with the boardroom reaction to the Patio commercial. Those guys can tell that something is off, but can't put their finger on what (or why). Kitty, by contrast, knows.

Mike

I think it's a neat twist on the Don/Peggy mentor/mentee thing. We see Don turn on the ad man charm *all the time* in his personal life. He innately understands that life is all about how you sell yourself to people. By contrast, while Peggy is proving to be an effective copywriter at work, she doesn't realize that these skills are transferable (for good and for ill) in the broader world.

Julien

But also pranks are only meant to amuse the prankers. They weren't doing it for TikTok. They were clearly having a blast.

Julien

The resistance to the obvious reality that Kitty just had an earth-shattering revelation is perplexing. And all the alternative explanations being offered are far less compelling than what actually happened: she knows. Honestly this is why shows like Mad Men are so rare and instead Hollywood errs on the side of painstakingly spelling out every single thing to the audience.

Julien

Haha yeah. If Sal did that little number everyone would immediately realize what was wrong with the commercial.

Wayne

Gene was saying that because Betty never really grew up (the will scene being an example) and married someone he thinks unworthy and gave up her career, that he’s worried she’ll push Sally in that same direction, and I think him mentioning Betty being fat was his way of making Sally feel better about eating her ice cream, but I might be wrong about the last part.

Mike

The show is actually a little ambiguous about whether Sal being gay (and therefore "unable" to reproduce the sexiness of the original video) is what torpedoed the ad -- or if it was just a shitty idea that was never going to work (as they discussed in previous episodes) regardless of whether he nailed the directing job, which Don seems to think he did. Which I really appreciate. It can be two things, I guess.

Julien

Yeah I agree that there is no clarity on why the client didn't buy the commercial. I tend to favor the "gay perspective" explanation, but that leaves the question of why the guys at the office (including Don) didn't pick up on the fact that something was off.

Sebastian

I'm confused by it too. Kitty realizing her husband is gay fits with the story. Why tie yourself into knots trying to come up with alternative, less interesting interpretations? It's not a story about how women sometimes get (I hate this term) "the ick". It's a story of a sham marriage.

Julien

@Mike: Your snark is appreciated. But unless you are willing to back up OP's assertion that oranges are film language for death, the few Godfather copycats out there that replicated this motif don't film language make.

Jude’s IFs

There’s been more than a few. Until what point does it become film language then? It been born from a movie doesn’t immediately disqualify it. Film language conveys something. It’s a cue. Oranges are a motif. Anyway, your condescending attitude aside, it’s my opinion and I don’t need yours, good day.

cheech

why would that man go by Ho Ho