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Mad Men 5x04 Reaction (Patreon)

Published:
2025-12-21 01:55:24
Edited:
2026-02-05 00:55:31
Imported:
2026-06
Tags:

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mad men 504

________________________ patreon - https://www.patreon.com/LMreactions twitter - https://twitter.com/LMreaction tv time - lola - skysstillblue, milena - oneofthe100

Comments

Taya

You guys were talking over it but the tv show that Sally was watching is called Mystery Date. In my mind it could also refer to Don's fever dream, and the murderer showing up on the doorstep of the nurses. Mystery date, indeed.

Juanma88

I think that Ginsberg was just doing stream of consciousness, he just speaks what is on his mind. He was probably unconsciously influenced by the photos to come up with the ad, but then realized it was too dark, as he said.

Julien

I'm a photographer (just a hobby) and clearly you guys have changed the color grading of your recording (intentionally or not) for this episode and definitely the last (and perhaps since the beginning of the season). It could also just be the camera automatically adjusting to what looks like natural light coming from the right (your left). In any event, vast improvement. I love it.

wwesvrfan215

I've always taken Henry's mother talking about her father being about her realizing there are terrible things/people out there that effect good people for no reason. She was just passing the teaching/warning to Sally in a less horrible/violent way. Also, the killings are real, they were committed by Richard Speck in 1966, and he was sentenced for 400-1200 years in prison to make sure he could never even touch a parole board after his death sentence got thrown out due to prosecutors illegally removing people who were against the death penalty and the death penalty was subsequently banned in Illinois.

Mike

Murder episode! Man, I love this one. The Richard Speck stuff looming over everything is so ominous and turns the rest of the storylines on their ear in such a fascinating way. Even if this episode only gave us Peggy shaking down Roger, that's enough. (The man needs to stop carrying so much cash.) But it also has one of the coldest lines in the Mad Men history from Joan -- "and you *know* what I'm talking about" -- plus Don strangling a former flame in a fever dream. Also: This season continues to be a coming out party for Kiernan Shipka. She absolutely rocks in this one. Perfect needle drop at the end, too. So eerie after the subject matter in the episode. V'yy fnl guvf orybj gur sbyq, orpnhfr V'ir tvira bgure crbcyr fuvg sbe ulcvat hcpbzvat rcvfbqrf, ohg guvf vf gur svefg rcvfbqr va n eha bs svir (guebhtu Ynql Ynmnehf) gung vzb vf gur orfg eha bs rcvfbqrf va gi uvfgbel. Gur fubj vf svevat ba nyy plyvaqref urer. Oevyyvnag fghss.

Mike

Holy christ people how hard is it to not talk about upcoming episodes

Taya

Pauline reminds me so much of my aunt. She used to babysit me all the time and loved to scare me. She'd tell me the plots of the Stephen King books she was reading, and let me watch The X-Files with her when I was like...8. She even kinda looks & sounds like her.

Kev

Haven't watched yet but wanted to say, what a great choice for the thumbnail, assuming it isn't random/temporary. One of my favorite scenes in the show, been waiting for this episode almost just for that scene. Though it's a great episode overall too. What a great season. What a great television series.

Mike

Pauline giving Sally some straight talk one week after her conversation with Betty is really interesting. We've heard a lot about Betty's mother, but she died before the series started. And honestly we haven't seen many women from that generation on the show at all. Because so much of Betty & Sally's story is about imparting -- or not imparting! -- yourself to your daughter, it's really fascinating to see a mother/grandmother figure come in and be so unsentimental about sharing lessons that women need (in Pauline's opinion) to survive in the world. I'm not saying that she'e 100% right about this stuff, especially with Betty, but that story about her dad kicking her across the room out nowhere certainly feels apt in light of the Richard Speck murders. Spooky family member who shares stuff with you that is *way* inappropriate for your age. I mean, who didn't have that experience growing up?

JBK405

It's a (minor) running debate in the fandom whether Andrea visited Don's apartment at all. Some think she did show up that first time and he kicked her out, while others think everything at home was a hallucination. I've heard the interpretation that his dream was him trying to kill the part of himself that feels so driven to cheat, since he does seem to have remained faithful to Megan so far. Andrea's own dialogue in his mind shows he's still full of self-loathing, so he knows that eventually he's going to do it again and he doesn't want that to happen. I do love the sequence of Peggy extorting such a large payment from Roger. Don had told her in season two that if she wants a raise, to ASK for the raise (like a man). Now she sees the power that she has in this situation, and she uses it for all it's worth. I said in a comment on the last episode that my sympathy for Roger is very marginal, since he COULD do his own job but doesn't bother. It's the same thing here: This problem is solely of his own making, so Peggy doesn't owe him anything. If he wants her to give up her own time (and lie to cover him) then he needs to compensate her for it.

cheech

Shelly Johnson 😍

Julien

Apparently extremely hard. I've done shit like this in my childhood and adulthood but I genuinely, sincerely do not understand how people don't grow out of this. Whatever pleasure one gets from spoiling things, it's so so so much better to just watch people experience things unspoiled. 🤦‍♂️🤷‍♂️

on crip ...

im genuinely confused that mundane comments like these get such negative reactions

Kev

Ah, actually this wasn't the episode I remembered it as. V onfvpnyyl rkcrpgrq gur Crttl fghss, ohg jvgu ure jbexvat hc ng avtug gung Tvaforet jbhyq or gurer naq unir gur jubyr "V'z na nyvra" fcvry, naq gung jvgu Qnja fgnlvat jvgu Crttl vg jbhyq unir gur fprar ng gur bssvpr jurer Wbna njxjneqyl gevrf gb uht ure, naq V gubhtug Qba naq Zrtna'f cybgyvar jnf tbvat gb gung qvare jvgu gur benatr fureorg (vg gnfgrf yvxr creshzr) gura ure ehaavat njnl. Gur rcvfbqr jurer vg tbrf cybgyvar ol cybgyvar naq abg puebabybtvpny. Fb V jnf pbzovavat n srj qvssrerag barf. Jung n terng frnfba! But a very good one, very strong with all the symbolism and themes tying together. I think my first thought (for Joan/Peggy/Sally & Pauline/The nurses/Cinderella) was a theme of What women have to do to survive, but then there is Don's story. So I think it is more so using the different roles/expectations of women as a backdrop to show how they shape everything in our society -- Joan as the military wife, then possibly a single mom; Sally as a little girl learning about sexual violence; Peggy as a secretary, then a confident copywriter; Dawn as a black woman navigating racial tensions and police brutality; even Andrea, as the seductress, then as the victim. It's like different forms of archetypes for women: the background/support (Joan as a wife could be seen as clawing her way into being the protagonist), the heroes, the villain and the victim (Andrea inhabiting both of the last two, like a femme fatale who is then also victimized, even though it's just a fever dream). Megan is also very maternal-coded which is another archetype, I love the shot of her walking into the doorway with the sunlight melting into her motherly silhouette, holding the water/tray for a sick Don. At least this episode we see a contrast between she and Joan, whose problems are at the forefront whereas Megan is just the perfect emotional support for the protagonist; an abstraction, which is what that shot communicates to me.

Kev

Yes, "Don" and "Dawn" sound similar. That's why in the last episode Harry was asking if it gets confusing and saying he gets them mixed up when people are saying their names.

Kev

When they mentioned how they think Don is trying to be faithful but will fail, I thought they were about to say they are "waiting for the other shoe to drop". Would've been such a perfect pun for this episode!

Kev
>>197345951

Vg jvyy or sha jngpuvat gurz tebna ng gur Orgu cybg yvxr vg'f nabgure Crgr purngvat fgbelyvar (bapr gurl trg bire gur npgerff orvat sebz Tvyzber Tveyf, juvpu V'z nffhzvat gurl'ir frra), naq gura gur RPG nfcrpg pbzrf bhg bs abjurer naq uvgf yvxr n gehpx. V nyfb ernyyl ybir Ng gur Pbqsvfu Onyy. V nyjnlf erzrzore gur gvgyr orpnhfr nsgre zl svefg erjngpu V fcrpvsvpnyyl jnagrq gb svaq gur rcvfbqr jurer Zrtna qryviref gur ornhgvshy Urvam ornaf cvgpu (bb, vf gung gur fnzr rcvfbqr jurer Crttl trgf xvpxrq bss gur ohfvarff sbe gelvat gb chyy n Qba jvgu gur thl?), ohg vg'f nyfb fhpu n cresrpgyl-jenccrq cerfrag bs na rcvfbqr. Guvf bar, fhecevfvat, vf gbb. V guvax guvf bar vf n yvggyr zber evqqyvat tvira gur nzbhag bs fgbelyvar vg pbiref va qvssrerag cynprf, ohg V ybir ubj rirelguvat gvrf gbtrgure ng yrnfg flzobyvpnyyl.

Jay Craig

Mystery Date was a board game from the 50s (shown in some kind of tv show version I'm assuming that Sally is watching at the beginning) that was mainly played by young girls where basically the goal is you open a door and a guy is standing behind it to take you on a date and you hope it's a handsome one and a type of date your character is dressed for before opening the door. Thematically rich for the episode for obvious reasons.

Cal

“Dazzle me” my favourite line from the series 🥰 I think Moss said somewhere that in this scene she played it as if Peggy was Roger - it’s so funny and perfect

ruseka

You know ... I will say ... Generally, I'm with most of the regulars & I'm not a fan of any kind of 'expectation setting' kinda stuff. BUT. I'm watching The Wire for the first time with L&M - currently on S4E2, and they went in with the knowledge that Season 4 is everyone's favourite and apparently the best. I believe they might've also known The Suitcase was gonna be a big one? And for The Wire at least, I don't think it made much of a difference to their experience. Anyway ... might not be that big a deal; but yeah, keep it to a minimum. Most of that just to say ... Fvtany 30 & Pbqsvfu Onyy ner zl snibhevgr rcvfbqrf naq V jvyy nyjnlf tb gb ong sbe gurz bire f4r9. Naq gung frpbaq eha bs rcvfbqrf - F5R10-12 - whfg nf tbbq, naq ahgf gb or va gur fnzr frnfba. V trg jr qba'g arrq gb frg nal xvaq bs rkcrpgngvbaf sbe gurz, yrg vg whfg cynl bhg ... ohg V'z fb rkpvgrq sbe gurz orpnhfr V guvax jr nyy xabj gurl ner tbvat gb ybir nyy bs gur nobir.

Dhaval Kale

I always find it fascinating when people prefer Roger to Don (this isn't a comment for this particular ep) - we don't get as much of a look into Roger's personal life, I feel like if we did it wouldn't be such.

Taya

One thing about the Dawn Peggy storyline is that despite Peggy's good intentions, there is a clear power imbalance between them and Dawn knows this. She can't allow herself to talk as freely as Peggy talks, I'm sure Dawn would like to commiserate and rant about the office but she's keenly aware of the precariousness of her position, and that if she says the wrong thing, it could have serious repercussions. It's worse because she knows that Don & Peggy are close and what she says could get back to him. It reminds me of the scene between Pete and Hollis in the elevator. Pete approaches him casually as if they are on equal footing, but Hollis is uncomfortable and hesitant to speak because he KNOWS they aren't and that Pete could get him canned in an instant. Pete is oblivious to this, and here Peggy is too. Peggy's "we have to stick together" is well-meaning but kind of tone deaf. This is the second time she's equated her own struggles as a woman with that of black people.

bondbond53

I think we almost unanimously didn't hype up The Suitcase for them with a few exceptions. So yeah we need to keep it up

Sebastian

Haha, I never knew. Christ that's dark.

Sebastian

I wasn't too excited for this episode because I mostly remembered the Don storyline, which feels a bit cheesy. But I didn't remember it also had the absolute gold nugget of a scene where Peggy extorts Roger, and Joan finally, finally kicking Greg to the curb. It's amazing the restraint they have to keep the rape an unadressed elephant in the room for three whole seasons before finally paying it off.

Mike

Jura gur bayl "onq" rcvfbqrf va n frnfba ner Grn Yrnirf naq Qnex Funqbjf, lbh'er qbvat cerggl nyevtug.

Mike

@Kev Pbqsvfu unf zl snibhevgr raqvat bs nal rcvfbqr va gur frevrf. "Ubj'f gur pvgl?" "Qvegl."

Mike

It's gotta be intentional that they cast a Twin Peaks alum for the dream murder, right? She's great in this episode. They also use reverse-footage in the scene where Don lies down in bed after kicking Andrea out of the apartment.

Sebastian

You're right on point when it comes to how Dawn can't speak freely and Peggy kinda fails to pick up on it. But I think Peggy's "We have to stick together" is mostly just sweet. It's her saying hey, we're both women in a man's world, more alike than we're different.

Jude’s IFs

It’s sweet but still naive because although all women have it hard. A white woman will always be seen as more valuable in the work place than a black woman

Julien

It's remarkable that it's even a debate. How would she even know where Don lives.

JBK405

It'd be easy to find his address. Looking him up in the phone book, asking a mutual acquaintance, calling SCDP and asking a secretary for his home addres to send a package, etc. These are all common ways of finding out where people live once you decide to look for them. That doesn't prove she DID do it, and it may have all been a hallucination, but not knowing his address is not an obstacle.

Julien

It's tone deaf. There is a world of difference between what they have to deal with as women. Dawn's struggles cannot be distinguished from her skin color. In other words, Dawn experience of *womanhood* is not something that is distinct from her blackness but is inherent to it. People like Peggy don't understand that at all. As noted above, it's not the first time she's been like this. And honestly, a lot of people reading this will not understand it either. If they did, this country would be a much different (and better) place.

Julien

What I find interesting about the Greg scene is that he knew what she was talking about. It's such a vague reference and yet he knew immediately. Which suggests that he has known all along that he did an evil thing.

Julien

Also it's a matter of historical fact that second wave feminism, which Peggy obviously represents, was entirely centered on white women to the exclusion of others. So I don't think there is much room for interpretation of Peggy's actions on this score. The show is consistently telling us (Abe and now this) that she is blind to struggles of women who are not like her.

Mike

Marital rape was (unfortunately) common in this era, but raping Joan *on the floor of her boss’s office* definitely wasn’t just a “those were the times” thing. It was uniquely and memorably bad -- for us and for the characters involved

Julien

I find it interesting how Joan is never condemned for passing off another man's child as her husband's. It's a monstrous thing to do to a man. I think perhaps the show means it as a revenge for the rape. Thematically, it can be seen as a vicious form of neutering. I'm guessing audiences don't care because it couldn't happen to a nicer man. But that doesn't absolve the evil of the act itself, the conscious decision that Joan made to have that baby and engage in this monstrous deception. For my part it's one of the very worst things anyone has done on the show. But I never hear anyone morally condemn her for it.

Edgar Pena

Yeah its because of the rape.Someone on here said it before, its the big elephant in the room with them in every scene . It feels like they're both pretending in every other facet of their relationship so, the baby is just another thing to pretend about

Jeff

Why is there such a need to reprimand “monstrous” and “vicious” actions of a tv character? People have favourites, biases. They may excuse some things because of it. People like characters despite being morally questionable. people are people. I like ralph over jackie jr as a character, despite Ralph being 1000x more reprehensible. why? Because he’s a better character to me—he’s more interesting, funny, deep, entertaining. If reactors were entirely focused on providing fair and equitable condemnation and holding everyone to the same objective standard, it would make everything a lot more boring and stale.

tilden katz

In the Suitcase Don was funny with the Roger outtakes from his book, and his "man was not meant to fly" comment he made to Peggy in the diner. He has a sense of humor, obviously not as good as Roger's. But Don's automatic setting is always: Brooding. He chooses not to be funny.

Julien

It is entirely normal and good that characters are morally judged by the audience. That's literally what good storytelling is about, that's what engages us, and despite your faux high-minded attempt to pretend otherwise, you don't watch, read, or experience stories from an amoral place. None of us do. You deal moral judgement to people in these tales all the time. Yes, YOU, and all of us. I did not fault our reactors - or anyone, for failing to do this with Joan. I merely noted it as it interesting.

on crip ...

there's research that spoilers actually enrich a person's experience. and not "next episode is godly" but actual "this happens" spoilers. regardless, it's still a personal preference and LM don't want outright spoilers. although, have they mentioned anything about "expectation setting" specifically? just cause i wouldn't personally consider expectation setting to fall under spoiler category. not that i care to expectation set, or could. i honestly have no idea what the next episodes entail despite watching them as they aired. from this pov, the "expectation setting" comments don't really register to me. i wouldn't ever ordinarily put this much thought into them, i'd just scroll and forget them like 10 mins after

on crip ...

In my view, even before the pregnancy, their relationship was maintained through deception. Importantly, primarily for greg's benefit. Joan was sustaining, through suppression, a marriage to an immensely insecure, needy man who sexually assaulted her. For that reason, I don't view hiding the child's paternity as "monstrous," or as an "evil act" of revenge. More than anything, her choice to keep the baby comes from a desire to be a mother. Hiding the paternity becomes just another lie necessary for their relationship to continue. Only this time, it's a lie that primarily benefits her notably, their relationship breaks down this ep because greg's mom exposed his lie about being forced to go back to Vietnam

ruseka

Monstrous / vicious / evil act … idk that i agree with any of that. “People do things.” That’s all there really is to it.

cheech

Never caught the reverse footage. That’s great. The casting was 100% intentional. No doubt

tilden katz

Season 3 is the best season on The Wire. The epic battle between Avon and Stringer the main reason why. Season 4 just happens to be the most popular, because of the kids.

tilden katz

I love how its casually assumed that "Don is a racist ". The utter contempt in which he is held is fascinating.

on crip ...

i'm reposting this as own comment cause too much effort for it to get buried here 😭😭😭: lots of good points in this thread. and i'll add critique of the narrative itself. In this episode, it is Peggy who decides to act against societal racism and it is Peggy who comes away changed by the experience. In this framing, critical aspects of 1960s race relations are obscured. Peggy is positioned as a "white savior." She 'saves' Dawn, a black secretary, from the violence of the race riots. Granted, the resulting storyline makes Peggy look naive about race, but that has already been established. In a previous episode, she failed to comprehend the difference between her oppression and the oppression of black people. Ultimately, through this narrative structure, Dawn becomes another passively written non-white character. Will we ever get a non-white character that portrays active agency, that works towards their own ends? I observe a preference for scenes idealizing that "times were changing" over depicting the actual racial reality of the 1960s. The way Peggy stumbles over her own racial prejudices is too lighthearted, almost comical. Moreover, her scenes simultaneously conceal how social change actually occurs. Race relations didn't improve in the 1960s because white people suddenly started to question racial hierarchy. It was black people and their allies actively forcing the country to change. Of course, not every black person was an outspoken activist. However, that doesn't excuse how Dawn is passively portrayed in this episode. First, it's simply not believable. Dawn's resume elevated her above every other black woman who applied to SCDP. Her character's docility in this episode does not align with that background fact. Second, active resistance isn't confined to "being in the streets." Resistance can take many forms. Professor Patricia Hill Collins, a black feminist theorist, has written extensively on the various ways black women have historically resisted racial oppression. She writes of a 1940s law student, Ruth Powell's one-woman campaign wherein "[s]he would enter cafeterias, politely ask for service, and, when refused, sit quietly, sometimes for hours at a time. During her sit-ins she would pick out a waiter and stare at him for perhaps an hour or more. “Whether I was finally served or not was unimportant,” Powell explained. “What I believed was that all these little bits of agitation would go toward that vital . . . awakening process” (pp. 216-217). So, Dawn might not be an activist, in a manner we usually imagine, but her character's social position still allows for subtle, nuanced acts against systemic racism. Unfortunately, the episode's narrative structure doesn't allow us anywhere near her perspective. We are deprived of witnessing her participation in any act of resistance big, or small. A shift towards writing non-white characters with active agency would provide more realistic and nuanced storytelling. What if we followed Dawn as she traversed the SCDP offices after-hours? What if she was frightened by Peggy making noise and promptly investigated? There's a vast amount of story possibilities that can spotlight Dawn as an active character. Why does Mad Men gravitate towards narrative structures that limit their exploration of black interiority, and critically misogynoir? cited: Chapter "Rethinking Black Women's Activism" from Black Feminist Thought by Patricia Hill Collins

on crip ...

In this episode, it is Peggy who decides to act against societal racism and it is Peggy who comes away changed by the experience. In this framing, critical aspects of 1960s race relations are obscured. Peggy is positioned as a 'white savior.' She 'saves' Dawn, a black secretary, from the violence of the race riots. Granted, the resulting storyline makes Peggy look naive about race, but that has already been established. In a previous episode, she failed to comprehend the difference between her oppression and the oppression of black people. Ultimately, through this narrative structure, Dawn becomes another passively written non-white character. Will we ever get a non-white character that portrays active agency, that works towards their own ends? I observe a preference for scenes idealizing that "times were changing" over depicting the actual racial reality of the 1960s. The way Peggy stumbles over her own racial prejudices is too lighthearted, almost comical. Moreover, her scenes simultaneously conceal how social change actually occurs. Race relations didn't improve in the 1960s because white people suddenly started to question racial hierarchy. It was black people and their allies actively forcing the country to change. Of course, not every black person was an outspoken activist. However, that doesn't excuse how Dawn is passively portrayed in this episode. First, it's simply not believable. Dawn's resume elevated her above every other black woman who applied to SCDP. Her character's docility in this episode does not align with that background fact. Second, active resistance isn't confined to "being in the streets." Resistance can take many forms. Professor Patricia Hill Collins, a black feminist theorist, has written extensively on the various ways black women have historically resisted racial oppression. She writes of a 1940s law student, Ruth Powell's one-woman campaign wherein "[s]he would enter cafeterias, politely ask for service, and, when refused, sit quietly, sometimes for hours at a time. During her sit-ins she would pick out a waiter and stare at him for perhaps an hour or more. “Whether I was finally served or not was unimportant,” Powell explained. “What I believed was that all these little bits of agitation would go toward that vital . . . awakening process” (pp. 216-217). So, Dawn might not be an activist, in a manner we usually imagine, but her character's social position still allows for subtle, nuanced acts against systemic racism. Unfortunately, the episode's narrative structure doesn't allow us anywhere near her perspective. We are deprived of witnessing her participation in any act of resistance big, or small. A shift towards writing non-white characters with active agency would provide more realistic and nuanced storytelling. What if we followed Dawn as she traversed the SCDP offices after-hours? What if she was frightened by Peggy making noise and promptly investigated? There's a vast amount of story possibilities that can spotlight Dawn as an active character. Why does Mad Men gravitate towards narrative structures that limit their exploration of black interiority, and critically of misogynoir? cited: Chapter "Rethinking Black Women's Activism" from Black Feminist Thought by Patricia Hill Collins

Mike

No? They were totally blindsided by The Suitcase and the reaction was better for it.

Kev (edited)

Comment edits

2026-09-19 14:00 I think "tilden katz" and "on crip" should have a conversation together, they might tire each other out
2025-12-22 08:21

Sebastian

Give it a rest, will you?

Josip

Don can be funny but he choses to be not most of the time

Thomas Fahey

What would Dr. Melfi say about this episode? Every scene depicts someone struggling to integrate past life experiences into their present day reality. Carl Jung could write a treatise on every one of these characters. Also the question keeps arising about the events in the outside world. They are documented daily in the New York Times, giving the audience an exact date for when the show's action takes place. It also just occurred to me that if Joyce works for Time Magazine, SCDP must be located in the Time & Life Building on 6th Avenue.

Sebastian

It is in the Time Life building! Don says it outright in the interview that ends 4x01.

Thomas Fahey

Just around the corner from the Seagram Building. Good times!

tilden katz

Cause you disagree. That 'tires' you?

on crip ...

omg so true tilden katz. a little text too much for them

tilden katz

Matthew Weiner co-wrote the divisive Sopranos episode "The Test Dream". You either hate it, or think it's brilliant. Like Braking Bad's bottle episode "The Fly". So he probably was intrigued by how Don would react when put in a similar situation. He committed a murder. Whoa. Let's you know what the creator really thinks about his main character.

Mark M

Finally Greg has been given the boot 🥳

tilden katz

I agree with that theory. But, most people are aghast at having even the most minute detail 'spoiled', before they watch.

tilden katz

According to the audience Peggy can. They see what she does as empowering. Don is NOT allowed to do anything without it being interpreted by the audience as oppressive, narcissistic, evil, etc.

kevin dale

In the AD Ginsberg was describing, she "wanted to get caught" was basically his retelling of Cinderella. She's running away, being chased, in the dark alleys outside the castle. But part of her wanted to be caught by the Prince. This was the Cinderella angle to the AD they were talking about earlier. Its just that Ginsberg has a bit of a skewed outlook on things and described the plot of Cinderella in the creepiest way possible lol