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Buffy The Vampire Slayer Reaction 2x17 (Patreon)

Published:
2022-01-25 11:14:00
Edited:
2022-03-21 17:08:14
Imported:
2026-08
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Hello All!

MY HEART HAS BEEN DESTROYED...It's only season 2 - guys I'm scared! This entire episode was cruel, from giving us hope to viciously stealing it away! RIP Jenny Calendar. I'm worried for Giles, I just don't know how he's gonna handle this. Angelus is actually the worst. I can't believe he went this far & in such an awful malicious way! Buffy's eyes are now open to what he is capable of. So many amazing scenes in this one though, fantastic ep despite it being so bloomin' upsetting!

Have a lovely week everyone! Thank you for the constant love & support!

Much love

Dakara x

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TROUBLESHOOTING:

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Comments

Todd Bolton

One good thing about Xander’s over-the-top “if Giles wants to go after the fiend that murdered his girlfriend” speech is that it gives Buffy a chance to both agree with him (so we know she is not blinded by her love for Angel) and state the obvious problem with it.

Dave Ford

Preemptive *hugs*

Aranforge Gaming

So last episode I commented that it was a good one but I was REALLY wanting you to get to THIS one. This show will make you laugh and have a super fun episode and then the next episode it will rip out your heart. Giles is a badass. My favorite character. This is absolutely one of my favorite episodes of the entire series. I watched it when it first aired on tv over 20 years ago, I was 16 years old. Had never seen anything like this on tv. This show started a little silly and got amazing fast. Vampire Diaries and other stories have stolen quite a bit from it.

Christopher simeon

While i agree that xander does say things at inappropriate times i will not say he is wrong in saying it. Just for a second pretend Angel is not a vampire and is a grown college man dating a 15 year old. If someone did not like the relationship and said something nobody would disagree that it would weird them out. And the fact that he is a former serial killer again nobody would bat an eye at him saying he does not like the relationship because if you knew someone was a former serial killer would you like them dating one of your friends. Then add that he is a bloodsucking demon that has now lost the one thing keeping him from killing all the people you care about and has killed someone close to you now. Xander is jealous of angel no doubt but that does not make him wrong. Angelus is too dangerous

Christian Liechti

This is one of my favorite episodes. It shows what this show is capable of. The two scenes where Giles goes up the stairs to find Jennys body and afterwards when Angelus observes Buffy and Willow getting the phone call are absolutely heartbreaking. Jenny and Giles making up and her getting killed is a great example how Buffy can get your hopes up and rip it away moments later. Great reaction. Thanks.

Bart Aansorgh

I think that was the first real appearance of Dakrya no?. This episode is really a heartbreak, but at the same time, soooooo well done. Angel really is such a good bad guy. Completely mental and twisted in the best way for someone who has lost his soul and lives to torment people. Jenny was an amazing character in a way, pretty layered and I did always root for Jenny and Giles. I was always a little indignant of Joyce in this episode, with what buffy's goin through, though you do see the care she has for her. I do think you can see the conflict in their relationship well there. I do think even though its heartbreaking, this is one of the best episodes of the season. The ride to the end of the season has started :).

Gabriel Mauller

Ah, episode of Buffy that shows you no one is safe, Angelus is a murdering bastard, and makes you feel real dread in the show. I love it.

Kirsten (Heavenli24)

This episode, just incredible! It gets me emotional every single time I watch it. It’s an amazing piece of television as well… just everything about it is so well done. Killing Jenny in this episode just really shows that no character is safe, and that Angel isn't just 'a bit evil', he is very evil and very dangerous. I remember when I first saw this season back when I was 16 and from the end of 2x14 (Innocence) onward, it became clear that Buffy was not like other shows… it had something special. Because other shows at that time would have simply resolved the ‘Angel losing his soul’ storyline and got ‘good’ Angel back by the end of Innocence, and everything would have been back to normal by the end episode. Not in Buffy, though. Innocence was a massive turning point in the series which elevated the show from good to incredible. In regards to Angel being invited into Giles’ house - we didn’t actually see it happen on-screen, but it’s implied that Angel has been in invited into his house at some point off-screen, because GIles says that when he gets home, he is going to perform the ritual to keep him out. A couple of fun facts about this one: - The music playing when Giles and Jenny first talk in the classroom, and again at the end of the episode is called Remembering Jenny. Ed Sheeran is a big Buffy fan and he actually sampled Remembering Jenny in his song Afire Love - In the rendition of the piece in the graveyard, the vocals are sung by Anthony Stewart Head. In a BBC interview back in the early 2000s, he said that this episode was his favourite. - When Giles calls Buffy and Willow to tell them about Jenny, the crew hooked up a real phone line so that they could have the actual conversation

AlyAdmirer

Dakara: "Last episode was so much fun. Hoping for a repeat of that..." Me: "Ohhhhh, you sweet summer child..." :-)

Dave Ford

Yes, but he's so much more interesting than Angel.

Merkavar

Watching Dakara get her hopes up about jenny, knowing whats about to happen :D

Erica Schaefer

God I love this show and this season.

AlyAdmirer

One disadvantage that reactors have here compared to those of us who watched it live is that we had a commercial break right after Jenny's death, allowing us to at least get a start on processing our shock and grief. So that when we came back from commercial, we were able to catch the line Giles has to Willow about needing to do his place next, establishing that while it happened off camera, he had been previously invited in. So far I don't think I've seen any reactor catch that line on the first viewing. Again because I think they're so stunned by what they've just witnessed.

Chas Summers

"This show is going to destroy me." 5 seasons plus 5 episodes left. Buckle up.

Gina St Phillips

I don't think my comment posted, so I am going to try again. First of all, I saw an interview about this episode with Joss. He specifically had Angelus break Jenny's neck rather than feed on her, and then just let her fall like she was nothing, just to gouge out our hearts a bit more. It could have been worse, though. He was going to have Angelus kill Jenny without the vampire face, but was talked out of it because it would be too traumatizing. Drusilla is both psychic and psychotic. I believe Angel mentioned her visions when he told Buffy about her. I do love Xander, but he can really be an ass sometimes. I can't believe he pulled a "told you so," when the only reason he didn't like Angel was because of his unrequited infatuation with Buffy. Saying that was just petty and the timing of his jealousy was way off. This is an amazing episode despite the heartbreak. One of my favorites.

That’s Not Acting

Totally agree with all the things you said. One thing I have heard is that there was an entire motivation with Xander‘s character that I never noticed but supposedly was a thing for the writers and for Nicholas Brendon. And that is that the experience he had with Jessie in the two part series premiere was supposed to have been some kind of motivation to sour his opinion of vampires a little bit more than the average person. So that all of his animosity toward Angel was supposed to have come, at least a little bit, from that perspective. The idea or perspective that “vampires took my friend, vampires killed my friend and then he turned into one and I had to kill him.” That was supposed to be a motivating factor for him. Now I’ve never picked up on that in watching the show. I think if they had leaned into that and made that more of a thing than this moment and his sort of righteous indignation may have played better. I still wouldn’t have liked it but it may have played better. But as it sits you were absolutely spot on and I one hundred percent agree that it just comes across as though he were jealous and now he’s just being an ass. Awesome comment.

That’s Not Acting

I agree. Every time I watch a reactor get to this episode and it moves into the next scene all I can think in my mind is “how are they supposed to focus after what just happened?” Lol

That’s Not Acting

Absolutely! I think I started tearing up the moment she got all excited about her winning her back. It was heartbreaking.

That’s Not Acting

First, that’s really awesome information. I hadn’t heard the thing about the phone line. My head canon has always been that Angel came over to Charles‘s apartment at some point toward the end of season one when they were working quite a lot together, actually. You remember Angel came to the library and introduced himself to Giles and then he got the Codex for Giles and of course in prophecy girl we have Buffy walking in on him and Giles talking in the library. I just assumed that some point in their when they were working together and Angel was trying to stay away from Buffy that he had been over to Giles‘s apartment.

That’s Not Acting

Totally agree. The one thing I will say is I think that we get the single best acting moment, not scene just moment, from Joyce that we get in the entire series. And it happens when Angel spills the beans about him and Buffy having slept together and Joyce turns to look at him and the look on her face is so raw and pure and genuine… So authentic. I really think that’s the best moment we get from her for the entire series. She’s of the great scenes but as a single moment I think that’s it for her.

That’s Not Acting

Love this episode and loved your reaction to it. I’m so sorry for your heartache. I saw it coming as I’m sure everyone else did and it was just breaking me. One thing I will say about Giles and Jenny and his sort of forgiving her. I think the moment that Jenny communicated that Buffy had told her that Charles missed her I think it was then that Giles sort of gave himself permission to forgive her because he felt that, in her Own way, Buffy had given him permission to forgive her. I think if it had just been a betrayal against him he probably would’ve forgiven her long ago but because it hurt Buffy so much and it caused her so much pain there was no way that he was going to entertain forgiving and entering a relationship with Jenny. Not until he knew Buffy was OK. Just another example of how he is the premier human.

Gina St Phillips

Now that motivation would have been much more sympathetic, but I agree that it didn't play that way. It was as if Jessie never existed soon after he died.

The BLOOB

Damn what a missed opportunity... 1 throw away line in the season 1 final would've done the job. If Xander just said to Angel: "At the end of the day, I pretty much just think you're a vampire... like the ones that took my best friend away from me" ... boom. Motivation succeeded.

Gina St Phillips

Yes, I agree that might have been enough right there!

The BLOOB

I'm loving these lmao it makes me feel like a psychopath how much i crave the tearsssss!!!! I feel vindicated.

Erica Schaefer

I believe (the reactor) Alley summed it up best: "Y'all are a bunch of sadists." 😂 Can't say she's wrong...

G.Un.

Great episode indeed but, me personally, I don't think it was so great in the execution. Set aside the minor weird, useless, stupid details, like all the Angel's talk about how he got into school. I don't know, maybe in the same way that he and all the other vampires have been walking in smoothly for the past couple of years? The fact that Giles, finding the door open and with Angelus on the loose, walks in without showing the slightest concern. Did he really think that Jenny had lock picked the door? Maybe, instead of the stupid Angel's talk, they could have given us Giles handing a spare key to Jenny. “Please, make yourself at home”. Problem solved. Hiding the information that, for some reason, at a certain point, Giles invited Angel inside in a note in a side conversation. Really? I've seen a lot of people scratching their heads not understanding how Angel got into Giles' house. Was it too much to ask that they make it a little clearer? Whatever. Aside that, as I said, what really bother me about the execution of this episode is yet another case where Angelus is in the position to easily kill Buffy but he doesn't. It's like all the times with Spike, where he runs away and Buffy lets him go. When you have two characters who, in theory, should try to kill each other with absolute determination and instead, when they get the chance, they don't do it out of … plot convenience, it kills all the tension. Why should I be anxious at this point the next time they meet? They could have done better. By the way, if Buffy was such an heavy sleeper at this point she would already be dead killed by Kendra. Actually how can she sleep at all knowing that Angelus could sneak in at any moment? A couple of things to keep in mind for the future. 1 - Joice's words to Buffy. “don't expect me to ever stop caring about you, because it's never gonna happen.”. Does he really want Buffy to fully open up to her? Because this is what I understand. 2 - How easily the police let go of Giles who, rationally, would be considered the number one suspect in a murder. Buffy speaking with Jenny. It is true that she said that things between them were still not ok, understandable, but she basically gave Jenny her blessing to be with Giles. Giles' loyalty to Buffy was the only thing, at that point, that was holding him back from reconnecting with Jenny. Another for future reference. How to read/judge switching bodies situations. We have seen the case with Amy/Mom and now we have Angelus/Angel, even if this is more a sharing than a switching situation. Clearly we can't say how we or anyone else should feels in a similar situation simply because is not a thing in the real world. We have to look at how the writers decided how the characters interpret such situations. For them the person is not defined by the body he occupies at the moment, the body is seen as little more than a dress. About this I would like to add that the gypsies have missed the mark of their vengeance because, in the end, it is Angel who suffers not Angelus. The daemon is fine. Buffy's look. It's true that she looks different in this episode but, in this season, the entire makeup department is quite a mess. Weird, if not terrible, makeup, really strange choices of hairstyles, etc., and don't let me start with the wardrobe. For the latter at least we have an explanation. Susanna Puisto, responsible for the iconic style of the first season, left the production before season two, but I have no clue what happened for the makeup.

G.Un.

Just a little suggestion to Dakara. You called Joss Whedon a sadist, and I totally agree with you, but let's not open that can of worms. Actually, and this is just a suggestion, let's not mention that name at all, which, at this point, is quite radioactive.

G.Un.

Is Angelus a serial killer? Well I would define him as a mass murderer, a serial killer is something more specific … but yes, absolutely. But that is Angelus not Angel, let's not confuse the two because they are two completely different people, even if they share the same body. Without him they would all have died before the end of the first season. Was there a possibility that Angelus would have returned? Sure, but anything could happen, it's a supernatural world with magic, curses, etc. Anyone could become bad, or good, or possessed, or swap their bodies, or become a werewolf, or whatever crazy thing. At the end doesn't matter what could be but what it is. To be honest, I would put much of the blame on the gypsies who cast the curse on him, but that they took great care not to explain him the conditions. It's as if I give you a bomb telling you not to detonate it, but not warning you that if you scratch your nose it will explode. Would it be your fault at that point if, surprise, the bomb went off? About Xander … no, his comment it's not only inappropriate, wrong place and wrong time, but is also stupid.

G.Un.

Honestly, if the screen-writers wrote Xander's lines in such way because they thought that what happened with Jessie was a thing, I think it would make it even worse in some ways. If it were a scene from the first season that they forgot to correct I would understand, it's not great but it can happen, I get it. But, at the end of the second season, having had the possibility to rewatch the previous episodes, to collect the reactions and impressions of the audience, to fine tune the characters ... no, I don't see it as a justification, not for a big professional production.

Christopher simeon

G.UN if Angel is not at least a little responsible for what angelus does then he does not need to atone for anything. But that is not the point. I do not care how good angel is it is ok to not like an adult man with a criminal past dating a 15-16 year old. The same goes for a 100 year old vampire. Yes. Xander does not have to like him. But He still worked with him and that is what is important. Now he has more reason to hate him.

Christopher simeon

The demon is not fine. Angel is the demon with a soul. Angelus is the demon without one. To not think of angel as a demon is completely wrong because human + demon equal Angelus but human + demon + soul equals angel.

Whisper_dvm

I think Angelus not killing Buffy is perfectly explained in his characterization. He wants to emotionally destroy her like he did Dru before he kills her. As per Dru’s line in Innocence “You don’t want to kill her do you? You want to hurt her, like you hurt me.” So killing Buffy is not Angelus’ ultimate goal and actually would not be satisfying for him at this time.

Jim Greer

Great reaction Dakara . In my humble opinion this episode is the one that turned Btvs from a good show into the greatest tv series ever . Keep the tissues handy because there are going to be plenty more times you will need them .

G.Un.

It's tricky I know. 😳 Let's try in this way, Angel is a vampire with a soul … and also a demon to make the vampire part work, while Angelus is only a demon because as a demon he can't have a soul … still confusing. Let me try again. Angel is the soul while Angelus is the demon. When he's Angel the demon is still there but is squished, gagged, and he doesn't care what Angel does of feels because … well he's a demon. When he's Angelus, the soul is gone so basically even Angel is gone … somewhere, in the ether, whatever it is, it doesn't really matter. They both share the body and the memories. I know, the sharing body thing is even more messy than the switching body thing. At least there is no time travel in the show, that definitely can cause serious headaches.

G.Un.

I got the concept, of course. What I meant is that the execution it's not the best. Openly showing us how easily he could have killed Buffy, or Willow, or Joice, or even Giles and that he doesn't even try, kills the tension. There was no need to show us Angelus in Buffy's bedroom. Maybe he could have found the envelope stuck on the front door, or at school, or even again in his room but thrown from the window. This to tell us that he knows that Buffy is not an heavy sleeper (😳), she is always ready for action and there is no way for him to take her by surprise. Maybe they could have shown us that he was planning to kill Willow, then something happens and he has to run away. He basically would like to hurt Buffy by killing the people around her, but it's difficult and dangerous, so he has to find other ways to mess with her mind. I don't know if I managed to explain myself well. What I mean, at the end, is that there were better ways they could have conveyed the same feelings and the twisted mind of Angelus without killing the tension. I don't think the way they chose is really good.

Phoenix Dawn

Tbh, in the light of his recent interview, I have a new perspective on Buffy...

Allan Cornett

Good reaction. I still tear up after all these years.

Christopher simeon

But ask yourself this. Would xander like angel if he was not dating buffy?

Bri

Dakara did mention him, Allan. I'm here because I've loved Buffy since it aired, and I love Dakara's reactions. But that doesn't change the fact that JW is a piece of shit, and a lot of us are reeling from that article. I think G.Un's advice, for reactors to not mention JW casually is pretty good.

DakaraJayne

Does anyone have a link to the info I should make myself aware of please? I’ll take this advice on board. Thank you.

Gina St Phillips

You can't, Dakara, it's completely full of spoilers. In my opinion it's partly our own fault. The fans, I mean. We deified JW - we thought he could do no wrong, because he stood sexist tropes on their heads and inspired us with his work. He was honored as a feminist for his writing and for his fundraising activities. His snappy writing style became how we all talked to each other. We called his work the Whedonverse, and he had a huge following, more than show runners had ever had in the past. Buffy was part of the university curriculum, and there was extensive scholarship detailing the impact of the show. One of my friends is a professor who teaches about Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter, Buffy, Firefly, and other genre books, movies, and shows, and she contributed essays to scholarly books on the subject of Buffy and Firefly. At the time, we couldn't separate JW from his work, which was wonderful and worthy of the attention it was receiving, and himself, who was not. We made of him more than he was. He was a misogynist and a hypocritical jerk to the people he worked with, he cheated on his wife a lot, he belittled and verbally abused his stars, and other completely disappointing and horrible behavior. Is he the only person who created content we loved that was also an asshole? Nope, the industry is full of misogynist assholes, but we had completely equated him with his work product, so suddenly the love we had for his work was dimmed by the revelations. We need to separate the work from the man. Buffy (and Angel, Dollhouse, and Firefly), stands as a breakthrough in storytelling and genre entertainment. We can condemn the man and still elevate his good work, even though it can be a balancing act, sometimes, not throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Jussi Vatanen

I truly think Innocence is where this show changed, that's absolutely perfect episode if we consider where the show was and where they wanted it to go. But I think this episode is where things let in motion by Innocence actually was capitalized. Angel, not Angelus, being the voiceover for this episode is so insanely great decision that it gives me goosebumps. Also David Boreanaz acting in this episode, and in Innocence too, is amazing. Well, so is Buffy's, Willow's, Giles' actors' acting.

Jussi Vatanen

On one level Angel and Angelus are different people, but really for the metaphorical meaning of the show they are the same person. It's like someone who is good person normally but horrible person when using drugs. And Angelus is now completely addicted to that drug. How ever you look about this story, Angel being with Buffy is kind of p3dophilic. We accept it mostly because Sarah Michelle Gellar is clearly much older than Buffy, in her twenties. And we know that David Boreanaz is just 8yrs older. But the story is kind of messed up. But we have the freedom to change some things in our heads to get some better head canon. Xander's role is to act Buffy's heart. Many things can be interpreted as something Buffy's intuition actually is saying to her. Here Buffy immediately said to Xander "you are right", and later he said to Giles "I'm sorry I didn't kill him when I had the chance." I don't know if this was Xander being the heart of Buffy, but at least it works here.

Jussi Vatanen

Can Angel ever be redeemed. And even if he could be, would the people forgive him? He has been killing a lot of people in Sunnydale and now he killed Jenny and would have killed pretty much everyone Buffy know if he had a chance. So can he be redeemed, it's worth thinking.

Jussi Vatanen

I think Giles had such a good record, ties to the community, that he wouldn't be thought as flight risk. Also any good detective would recognize that Giles acts exactly like someone who found her loved one being murdered. Which is far from what a murderer would act, no matter the acting skills. He would be a suspect but he could be allowed to leave. Though it all wouldn't happen so fast.

Ed Green

The Orb of Thesulah was referenced in an episode of Supernatural (I think it was Season 7). Now you've seen what it was a reference to.

G.Un.

As I said, "for future reference". I just suggested that you keep the police behavior in mind so that you can compare it with their behavior, I don't know, on other occasions in the future… maybe? 😉 I won't say more. By the way, Sunnydale police … good detective? 😂 Good one!

Allan Cornett

Thanks Shineyelfriend. Best post on a subject that is dividing some fans. Dakara was calling Joss a sadist the same way we all did when the series first aired because he killed fan favorites. It had nothing to do about the allegations that have come forth. Joss is a horrible man. Will I always love Buffy? Yes. The great work the rest of the entire production crew did is worthy of praise.

Ceara Abrahamsz

Think this episode is emotional...just tip of the iceberg💔

DakaraJayne

consider myself buckled...I am ready for this bumpy ride!

DakaraJayne

thats when you know it's good, if years later and a bunch of rewatches and it still gets you <3

DakaraJayne

hahaha, I feel you have too much power knowing what's ahead of me :p#

Ian

Super sad episode this poor Jenny I really liked her too damn it if only she knew some of Rowena's tricks she would have been ok , kinda gutted but we go on 🙂 great reaction as always dak

Thexx

"I'm gutted". Oh my sweet summer child. Not yet you ain't. This one scars the soul. I'll never get over it. But it's through this pain that we find what really matters.

Leonard Ledung

This is one of the best episodes, there are alot of great ones, but certain episodes will indeed destroy you, and the rest of us as well, going on the journey with you.