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UNCUT - Journey's End (TNG S7E20) | Star Trek Journey 316 (Patreon)

Published:
2025-10-17 14:00:17
Edited:
2026-11-01 04:53:46
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THE LORE!!!

Maybe I am misunderstanding what Josh means by it being refreshing to see an Earth colony. We've seen a lot of colonies of people who left Earth. Everything from Up the Long Ladder to The Ensigns of Command to Paradise on DS9 just a couple of weeks ago and quite a few in between.

Fedora The Explorar

Federation and Cardassia had conflicts and battles and skirmishes that never fully escalated into a war but it brought a lot of casualties on both sides and the Cardassias were an enemy to the Federation until not too long ago

Keith S

Yeah TNG is good at having the same actor playing the same character character. Except once.

Collin Freeman

This was better than I remembered it.

Cory Paton

The Federation and Cardassians absolutely were at war - the border treaty mentioned here is the result of the post-war negotiations finally being finished. O'Brien fought in the war. Maxwell still thought about being at war with the Cardassians in the wounded and Miles had to remind him the war was over.

Cory Paton

They were definitely at war, its mentioned from the very first appearance of the Cardassians in The Wounded.

Target Audience

I didn’t remember the planet of Ensigns of Command being humans, you’re right. In Paradise they were trapped so that was a bit different. I just meant a human colony where the episode takes place on their planet. Wouldn’t be surprised if there are a few more I’m forgetting.

Target Audience

Then what war do they keep referencing over the next few episodes?

Joe Concepts

Yep, The Wounded, guys. The Chief himself says "the war is over" or something. I ALWAYS thought them just shoving a war in that would've happened and ended just before TNG started didn't make a lot of sense. The Bajoran occupation partially overlapped with that war, but was NOT the war. It was separate. Ensign Ro's first appearance tells us the Federation didn't interfere in THAT because it was outside of their territory. I think the idea in DS9 is that the Bajorans themselves asked the Federation for help. Which makes sense since they know they fought the Cardassians recently.

Collin Freeman

If we had not had the episode First Duty, this Wesley episode would not have made sense to me. But, I think after experiencing the death of a friend which he shared responsibility for, I can see him coming to this decision, so I am okay with it.

Cory Paton

I've never understood the people who wanted Wesley to just go through the same "be in Starfleet" thing as every other character. I'm kinda aligned with Josh here, Im not a Wesley stan but Id rather he end up somewhere unique in the end.

Steven Linden

Yeah, much like Josh, I really like this episode even though on paper it doesn't necessarily look like something I'd love.

River Acheron

I'm somewhat between you guys. Not close to my favorite this season, but by no means did I dislike it. For me, it's a solid B epiosde. As far as the previous war with the Cardassians, I believe it was called The Boarder Wars. O'Brian fought them at Setlek 3 (spelling?) I really don't have much else to say about this episode at THIS this time anyway. And yes!!! Great Jason X shirt! A sequel that is actually VERY good. Better than it has any right to be. I feel like everyone who says they hate it because it's "in space" are the fans who actually never watched it lol.

Actuarial Lurker

A normal human born of normal parents becomes NEO in the Matrix and steps out of the simulation? That gets an E from me....Wesley was always one of the cringe characters of this show- they even mock it in Galaxy Quest- so no reason to b ring him back- let alone for some bad writing like this....

Darren

I’ve always felt this was a reasonable wrap up of Wesley story, especially after the First Duty. It ties back to season 1. It’s clear back then that Wesley had a potential that didn’t just mean starfleet. Probably a B for me.

Marko

Officially Cardassian Union and the Federation were at war since the Setlik III massacre (where O'Brien said he killed for the first time) in 2347 up until 2366, which is 3rd season of TNG. And the incident with captain Maxwell was a year later

Marko

You may have forgotten, Picard was a parent on Kataan. He was also having discussions with his son there, about him leaving his studies and focusing on music. I remember you not liking the chemistry Stewart had with his own son lol.

Target Audience

Thanks! A large grocery store chain near us was selling it and I couldn’t believe it was real.

Doctor Pulaski

I guess this one is a guilty pleasure for me. I love things coming full circle with the Traveler, I love the continuity of "the Admiral in charge of Cardassian stuff" coming back, and the shades of grey that come with Cardassian politics that help connect the shared universe of DS9 & TNG. Even the fact that we see a Gull that was just in a DS9 episode, it's almost like the writers actually know what they are doing....

Nick

Some more human colonies in TNG. There were many in TOS and will be more in other series: Datalore (Data and Lore’s home world Omicron Theta was an “Earth colony” before the crystalline entity destroyed it, aka, Android World) Up the Long Ladder (Bringloid V and Mariposa colonies from Europe that left Earth before the Federation formed, aka, Irish Stereotype World and Clone World) The Masterpiece Society (Moab IV colony established around the time the Federation was founded, aka, Eugenics World) The Survivors (colony was human but everyone was wiped out except for noncorporial alien recreated his wife and appeared initially to be the only two (human) survivors) Sub Rosa (Caldos, Dr. Crusher’s home world [where she was raised, not born], while the governor was an alien, it’s pointed out that the colony was set up by Scottish descendants and is being terraformed to mimic Scotland to preserve their culture/way of life and the rest of the residents [sans Beverly’s ghost] appear human, aka, Scottish Highlands World) Legacy (and referenced it various other episodes) (Turkana IV, Tasha and Ishara’s home world, a failed human colony whose government collapsed and fell into civil war about 30 years before TNG, and broke ties with the Federation roughly a decade before TNG, ie, R*pe Gang World)

Nick

The conflict is referred to in many different ways, Federation-Cardassian War, the Cardassian Wars, the Cardassian boarder conflict, or the boarder wars. Reason is it kinda depends on who’s talking about it. The Federation vastly out matched the Cardassians. Think NATO’s intervention in Bosnia and Herzegovina (Balkins) in the 1990s (the same time TNG/DS9 was writing about the Cardassian wars). For the Cardassians, it was all out war against a superior force, for the Federation, it was a bunch of skirmishes. While some were big, like the Setlik III massacre O’Brien was involved in, from the Federation’s perspective, they were mostly small/moderate. This was far from all-out war for the Federation. Unless one lived near the border or served in Starfleet near the border, it didn’t have a huge impact on most life in the Federation. Heck, the first 3 1/2 seasons of TNG are set during the “war” and there really arent any signs of it. The peace treaty ending it is signed right before “The Wounded” (s4e12). Bajor wasn’t really a factor in the federation war. Bajor was occupied in 2319, nearly 30 years before the Federation-Cardassian War, and the occupation didn’t end for 3 more years after the war. The reason for the withdrawal isn’t clearly stated (Cardassia says it was political, Bajor says they forced them out), but given the proximity to the end of the war with the federation, I suspect it was similar to the Soviet Union pulling back before its collapse. They over extended themselves, fought too many wars/occupations for too long, economy suffered, and pulled back to regroup.

Philbot

People hate the magic Wesley time lord development. He was a boy genius Starfleet officer and it seemed he’d always be that. So I never really saw another destiny for him. 🤷‍♂️ After all these years I guess I’m ok with it..

River Acheron

Isn't there also a lunar colony and a mars colony etc? I may be misremembering

River Acheron

I never liked him as a character so whatever they did with him was whatever lol

Philbot

Jason X does rock!

Worf and Riker Ride Again

I think First Duty would have been a better end for Wesley, except he's kicked out and goes off to do something else. I'm not sure Dr Bev should be happy about the Traveller spending all his time with Wes, she needs to get some kind of restraining order, no closer than 50 feet at any time

David Wayne Fox

This was never even close to one of my favorite TNG episodes, but the image of Wesley and the Traveler walking away from the conflict really stuck with me on my original viewing and since then on repeat viewings. I just find something kind of powerful about that scene, that implies that there are things much more important than petty skirmishes between races.

Jonathon Tsagris

You guys need to watch the wounded again. The federation-Cardassian war is literally part of O'brien's backstory.

Jonathon Tsagris

This tends to be considered one of the worst episodes of TNG. You've got Mary Sue Crusher finally one upping himself by ascending to become a higher being; and you've got the really problematic and stereotypical depiction of Native Americans, and then to make it worse it turns out that one of them was The Traveller all along basically appropriating Native American culture to help Wesley discover his superpowers.

Ceruleo

This episode takes place in 2370, in the 2350s and early 2360s, there were the border wars between the Cardassians and Federation. It's basically Vietnam for the Federation. It's not a huge war where Earth is in any danger, but it was brutal on the front lines for the people fighting it. So basically, O'Brien is a Star Trek version of a Vietnam veteran. During this time, the Federation seems to have bumped up against the borders of several lesser empires that fought minor wars in the same vein.

StealthMomo

I would imagine one reason Gates and Wil Wheaton pulled off those emotional scenes so well is their real life relationship. I’m sure by now you are well aware that Wil Wheaton had been emotionally abused by his parents since childhood. He basically their money machine and performing monkey. The whole TNG cast pretty much spiritually adopted him and he and Gates had a very close relationship. He basically considered her more of a mother than his own mother and Gates was very supportive and protective of him. They were probably working from their genuine emotions.

StealthMomo

Respectfully Alex, about your comment at 1:19:48 — I believe you are looking at Wesley’s reactions the wrong way. He is a super genius and teenager. At this point his depression, that haughty attitude he had with Geordi, his slipping grades…many young people of above average intelligence act out because of the restrictions laid upon them by society and the restrictions they lay upon themselves as well. Everyone knows Wesley is supposed to be smart. But what if he was even smarter than he’s ever let on? Trying to act as “normal” as possible, simply to be accepted. And he finally had enough. Saying “Well if he didn’t want to be in Starfleet anymore, why would he care about warp theory and stuff?” is silly when you think about it. Wes was always about the science. When he confronted Geordi with that attitude, he seemed like someone who was weary of hiding his light under a bushel. He could tell by looking at the mechanism that it wouldn’t work and was angry and frustrated that this man who was a friend and mentor couldn’t see it. Disappointed as well, I’d imagine. This man who taught him so much in his youth was now magnitudes beneath him. When Wesley was young, the non-linear Traveler already knew what he would become in time. And now is that time.

paultardspambot .

remember in The Wounded the captain who wanted to continue the war and chief, they were at war before

Tim Nikiforovs

Probably the best analogy of all the comments here

Tim Nikiforovs

I don't hate this one as much as most, but it's still C tier for me. Some good scenes especially with Beverly, but Wes being an insufferable dick for so much of the episode makes you glad he's gone at the end and resentful they wasted one of the few remaining episodes on this. A lot of others have given analogies so I won't get too much into it, but yes there was a roughly 2 decade war with Cardassia. More than a cold war, but not a near peer conflict. Regarding this direction to take Wesley in, I don't really have any issue with him choosing to do something other than starfleet, and I get bringing back a long running storyline, but honestly the Traveler is just weird. This is no more interesting than continuing in starfleet IMO. Even referencing back to the Mozart line would have been fine, but I think it would have been far more powerful for him to set off on his own path rather than just follow someone else. There are many more satisfying ways they could have played this. And since you've seen The Maquis, the deal to leave the colonies in place predictably didn't really work out. I get the natives not wanting to uproot again, but they were being seriously naive about whose backyard they were living in. Now also to be fair, the federation always struck me as rather weak here. Given the technological and economic edge the federation has, there's no reason they should have conceded ANY territory. They should have told the Cardassians "you can either accept it or we'll gather up the fleet and MAKE you accept it, but the border isn't changing. Your choice".

paultardspambot .

She was referred to as Fleet Admiral, which means she is THE top officer at starfleet. There's only one fleet admiral

paultardspambot .

yes. theres a penal colony on the Moon and a Mars colony where Geordi grew up, near the Utopia Planetia main shipyards

ShazD

Boring and lame. Not the first time this season brings back something very unnecessary from an early season. I really didn't need a continuation of the "Wesley is special" storyline.

BN13

I'm fine with him leaving Star Fleet and finding his own path, but yeah making him Magic Wesley Time Lord is pretty ridiculous. I always hated that. I never hated Wesley. I actually related to him a lot because I was also a straight A smart kid, and people even called me a "genius" all the time even though I knew I wasn't one, and I also had a lot of huge expectations placed on me that I never measured up to in other's eyes. Mainly because apparently my "genius" that everyone saw growing up turned out was actually autism. But yeah, I relate to Wesley's behavior here. When you're neurodivergent, or "smart" or wired any other way where you end up seeing the world very differently from everyone else around you, you end up getting very frustrated, and even hate everyone around you, because no one else around you can see what you see as obvious, and they don't understand when you are right. Plus, you're still expected to live up to everyone else's small little box of expectations and follow everyone else's rules when you know that those expectations/rules are harmful and/or pointless, and you can never really fit into them anyway without sacrificing who you are, or holding yourself back. And for what? So other people around you can remain comfortable by continuing to live a lie? Eventually you have to get comfortable not caring what others think, and just do whatever you need to do to be authentic to yourself even if it means pissing everyone else off. But yeah, I'd rather the episode just focused on that lesson instead of using that concept to turn Wesley into a super-human god. Some people can relate to the former, but no one can relate to the later.

Mara

Solid B episode tbh. Some hate the wesley story, I think it's a good show of someone finding his real path, no matter how bumpy. The Native aspect is a bit preachy but perhaps we need that, sometimes? Good callbacks and returning characters with development - even Fleet Admiral (formerly Admiral) Nechayev who almost every time butts heads with picard and the enterprise, and now this time they recognise that and extend an olive branch. Just solid, good shit.

Sam Langanke

I didn't remember that the Cardassian/Federation border conflict started in TNG. Cool.

Chris Moe

TNG: The Enterprise and its crew triumphed again, resolving a tough conflict with a well-thought-out diplomatic compromise! Everything will be fine! ...a few weeks later... DS9: WTF!

Aaron Wells

Be very careful about pointing out historical parallels around here 🤪

Aaron Wells

Episode is completely unsubtle. Meh. Am I allowed to get up from my desk now?

Dark Kronis

and thus trek universe said shut up Wesley’ one last time

Aaron Wells

Pretty sure there is a CiC in Starfleet. That being the senior most fleet admiral. Could be multiple fleet admirals during wartime...

Sam Langanke

"Make sure to dress always warmly" Ohh, now I get something. Funny!

Kyle Stewart

Also funny comment about the Cardassians having inferior weapons. Just about every species from the Klingons and Romulens to the Gorn and the Tholians. Its very rare we get a race that can go toe to toe with the Federation. The willingness to absorb tremendous losses and use underhanded tactics goes a long way in fighting the UFP.

Aramis Calcutt

There was a devastating war between Cardassia and the Federation. It happened off screen, before the series started. O’Brien fought in that war before he was assigned to the Enterprise. A lot of the stories involving the Cardassians follow from the consequences of that war, like the episode in which Picard discovers that the Cardassians are secretly re-arming areas in violation of the treaty that ended the war. Remember Picard turning his back on the Cardassian Gul after telling him he knew what they were up to.

Jonathon Tsagris

Restricting the discussion to the actual major powers - The Federation has a significant tech edge over the Cardassians and the Ferengi, possibly less so the Klingons especially given they've been allies for a while at this point; but I definitely don't think it's correct to say they have a tech edge over the Romulans. The disadvantage of Starfleet compared to the other major powers though is that while Starfleet does perform the functions of a military; that's not their primary function. Starfleet in this time period is building ships that are primarily designed to operate independently and do science stuff. The klingons are building spartan warships (but are hampered by their feudal system of government). The Romulans mostly just want to be left alone. The Cardassians are the huge threat they are because they 1. Are reliant on conquering and exploiting other planets to support their economy because they trashed their own planet 2. Are governed by a highly centralised Military Junta supported by a brutal secret police 3. Have a highly organised and disciplined military. The enterprise could probably blow any 2 cardassian ships to smithereens, but the enterprise is out there on it's own while the cardassians have packs of ships being directly ordered around by a central military HQ.

Mark Chrisco

A subtle moment. As Data and Geordi leave Wesley early on, Data tells him Goodbye, indicating this may be their final meeting. BTW, Ned Romero played the Klingon in TOS's A Private Little War.

jon bolton

On my first watch i really didn't like this one and that put me off re-watching it for a long time, but my last few watches i've really enjoyed it. Low A.

Sainjl

I think O’Brien called it the border wars

Laurie Rebisz

I hear some of your sentiment there Alex, but all can say is that there IS a reason they chose to show a Native American Culture at the Fed/Cardassian Border.... to be continued....

Sainjl

But even if the federation is more powerful, the Cardassians are more ruthless. You have to be equal to be in a war.

Narnman

I like this episode except always referring to them as "Indians" which even felt out of place back in the 90s when the episode came out

River Acheron

So I took Native American studies a few years ago. My professor who was Native American constantly called his people "Indians" during class. When asked why, he laughed and said "we never cared about that. We do not care what people call us, as long as you remember us." So there's that. I don't think it matters to Indians/native Americans themselves.

Narnman

i mean the first time refering to them as indians is maybe alright but once we know the name of their tribe we could refer to them by that name instead of repeating 'indians' all the time. i think but might be wrong all other species or cultures in star trek get called by their proper names once we know who they are

Some Guy

It seems to me that it was a series of skirmishes for the Federation and an all-out war for Cardassia

Numinous2019

In retrospect this episode seems very odd. I'm not going to say why (for obvious reasons), but someone clearly forgot this story existed. Or they assumed the audience wouldn't remember it.

Naglfarius

Zzz..Zzz... Oh wait the Episode is over! Thank God.

Numinous2019

The ties between Native Americans and their land is probably why they were chosen for this show. Naivety would not therefore be the issue. Since this episode is clearly intended to tie into DS9's two-parter, there is a corresponding unwillingness to migrate regardless of the circumstances.

#MaxwellDidNothingWrong

I never noticed this before, but Admiral B*tcheyov is actually on the correct side the entire time. * She saw the exact same historical parallels, made the same objection as Picard did, with the same argument to her own higher ups BEFORE she even sat down to give Picard his orders. * She made an appeal for an emergency session of the Federation Council to revisit this issue and had it shot down DAYS before Picard implored her to do that exact same thing. * She accepts her place in the command structure, defers to the positions specifically entrusted with these decisions and the people elected specifically to make them, then is firm with her subordinates that these are orders and we don't get to be the decision makers here. Just like Picard did with his own subordinates. Is this another 'Captain Jericho' situation where the abrasive commander is actually in the right and doing a good job? (Notices Maquis I&II are coming up soon) Well...

#MaxwellDidNothingWrong

The only people who care, and who push for relabeling other people (Native Americans, LatinX, etc etc) are people other than that group. Whites don't demand they be called 'Caucasians' or 'European Americans' or anything like that. And did you know Germans don't call themselves Germans or their country as Germany? It's Deutschland. Or that in Japan they don't call themselves Japanese or the nation as Japan? It's Nihon. They don't care that we call them what we do though. It's fine man, relax. The Japanese literally call Europeans 'White People' rather than something like 'of European Descent'. No one cares, it's fine. Don't be surprised that other groups also don't care. Don't go looking for guilt to create and grievances to fix that don't exist simply to assuage some need for recreational absolution. It's weird.

lowkee120

Honestly don't know how they forgot about this, especially since one of their favorite characters O'Brien was involved.

lowkee120

He calls her his "space mom".

#MaxwellDidNothingWrong

Yes 'Skirmishes' for the Federation (their borders are enormous by comparison) but because it was viewed as an existential threat from Cardassian perspective they treated it as a need for total war and that aggression sucked an ever increasing amount of resources, attention, and losses from a Federation that wanted to pretend it was a minor regional misunderstanding that would blow over. In my head canon, because the Federation hates war, they wanted to pretend they weren't at war, and so only called them 'skirmishes'. Which meant they sent supplies, resources, ships, and rules of engagement as though they were only skirmishes, which resulted in a series of disadvantages the Cardassians could exploit, leading to unbelievable unnecessary loss and suffering among those officers who served along that front, and whom seemingly understood what the Cardassians were actually about 100x clearer than their 'musty bureaucrat' superiors. #MaxwellDidNothingWrong #NeverForgetThePhoenix Because you just can't trust those damn Cardies. Pour one out for those we lost on Setlik 3, and what the war made us become.

#MaxwellDidNothingWrong

One sword, at least to defend thy rights One faithful harp, to praise thee

#MaxwellDidNothingWrong

Except in Vietnam the US poured endless resources into the conflict and slaughtered their adversary relentlessly. In these 'skirmishes' the Federation tried to pretend it was only a minor issue that would blow over and so those on the front never got the support they needed leading to unnecessary losses, needing to resort to methods to win that changed the character of those who fought, and resentment among those who served who began to believe that the 'musty bureaucrats' didn't understand the realities of the Cardassians the way they did. Which is kinda more interesting than Vietnam in a way

#MaxwellDidNothingWrong

Though all the world betray thee One sword at least to defend thy rights One faithful harp to praise thee

#MaxwellDidNothingWrong

Do you think the traveler has been watching Wesley while he takes sonic showers?

Narnman

@#MaxwellDidNothingWrong# Thats not totally what i'm getting at i expand in my 2nd message here that if we know their collective name call them by that name instead of a generic "Indians." When they tell us who they are refer to them as their proper name, otherwise it comes across as kinda rude to them. Just like its already done with all the other cultures and races in star trek.

#MaxwellDidNothingWrong

They could have made Wesley just 'gifted' We could have gotten episodes where he struggles living up to those expectations Or episodes where he has the mental capacity, but not the TRAINING to solve a problem But instead we got what we got. Maybe it's just me, but the one sin I can't forgive is wasted potential, and there is so much potential that was wasted with his character to chase wunderkin saves the day and magical traveler nonsense. We did get First Duty though.

#MaxwellDidNothingWrong

I think it's more about not needing to be special to be your own person. And about how if you're gifted you don't have to be jesus to fulfill that potential. Becoming a time-lord doesn't feel as satisfying an end for his journey because I don't like the idea that if you're a 'special' kid that you're a disappointment if all you do is excel in something you enjoy that 'normal' people also do for a living. Episode 1 Wesley is OBSESSED with Starfleet, knows the layout of all the consoles, so it's perfectly natural to see the mastery of that path as the natural conclusion to his arc.

Doctor Pulaski

That makes sense, then that she is the one dealing with preventing a major war with another power. The Fleet Admiral is effectively the Commander in Chief of starfleet and reports directly to the President of the Federation. Her rank insignia is that of Vice Admiral, however, but I assume the continuity error is in the costume department, not the script.

#MaxwellDidNothingWrong

The war is over? Tell that to the Cardassians who are breaking that treaty right now. Don't believe me? Beam over and see for yourself. You know, this room is kinda musty - like a bureaucrat's office.

#MaxwellDidNothingWrong

The Federation Council may not have called it a war, safe from Earth. But those who served? "They don't know what's going on out here. But you should, Picard"

Scarpad’s Domain

yeah i never really cared for the creepy traveler and to be honest Wes was kind of the B plot and it seemed forcwed into this episode. There's one more good episode before the finale and this was'nt it, this ep was'nt terrible its just kinda was, and i was kinda dissapionted they glossed over "the Incident" with Beta Sqaudron that was brought up recently in Lower Decks as More hard times for Wes. Wes Leaves Starfleet due to their Hands off nature, then immediately jumps into bed with the traveler who tells them to not gwt involved... WTF C+

Ceruleo

America never really mobilized for Vietnam. It mostly rotated its active duty force through while maintaining its Cold War commitments elsewhere. A lot of people died, but everything you said about bureaucrats and resentment sounds exactly like both of my uncles who fought in Vietnam after a few beers. The US killed an astonishing number of people in Vietnam, but it was all endless whack-a-mole which is what I assume the Cardassian War felt like. Raids here or there, but lacking the feel of a real World War II style war where you trade lives for ground and once you captured the ground the war was over. In Vietnam, and my conception of the Cardassian War, the Federation killed an astonishingly high number of Cardassians, but Cardassia had to keep coming because it's a fascist state and fascist states need to fight to justify their existence in the face of external threats. I wouldn't be surprised if Cardassians made up 90% of the casualties and the Federation's compassion makes them sensitive to that as though they were their own because a life is a life. Also, for me the Vietnam analogy works because Miles O'Brien is an Everyman and being a kid growing up in the early nineties, blue collar Vietnam veterans were everywhere. O'Brien has that same vibe for me. How the Federation could have this horrible war with an opponent comparatively weak as the Cardassian Union never made sense to me until playing strategy games, both historical and Star Trek. Limited Vietnam-style wars at the peripherals and limited-Cardassian style wars had the same nuisance feeling. If my wargames were real life, they would be tragedies on the front lines and in theater like the Vietnam War was in history. However, my focus on the Soviets or the Romulans made it a minor thing to the whole strategic picture which I think is reflected in the Starfleet officers in the Cardassian theater of operations versus the ones who served outside it.

Scarpad’s Domain

Yes and they should have just introduced that reason

Scarpad’s Domain

Did you Pick up the Nice Arrow 4K set of Jason X put out a couple months ago, fantastic set

tyranusfan

A ninth sequel that had no business being as good as it was. Amazing improvement over number 9

tyranusfan

Starfleet fought several small wars in the two decades before TNG starts. The Cardassians, the Tholians, the Tarellians(? Whoever kidnapped Jono)

Josef Nitervol

One of the best Episodes of the season!

Trekkie74205

Unlike most tv series, they knew they were going straight to movies. This influenced how they did or didn't wrap up character's stories.

Boggle

Wesley deserved better.

River Acheron

Jason Goes to Hell was BAD but it was so fun to watch. You wanna talk about bad? Jason Takes Manhattan. Or as some fans call it, Jason Takes A Boat Ride, or as I call it, Jason Takes (A Really Long Time To Get To) Manhattan.

Devon Cooper

Quick question that you have probably answered a zillion times, but do you guys think you’ll venture onto voyager and Picard? And are you going to start the next gen movies after this? I’m sorry if this is a repetitive question lol

Paul

I loved it too. A-tier. The plot with Picard and the Natives especially hits. When distant bureaucrats, even with the best of intentions, start playing with your entire existence, culture, history, like pawns on a chess board, no. Something is deeply wrong about that picture. Sure, it's a bit on the nose as Alex mentioned but it didn't bother me. Maybe because my bias has me favoring the Indians? Wesley's departure was well-called, the traveler coming back, I never guessed at that in my first watch, but it makes sense given what he said to Picard back in S1.

Zack

This episode blows goats

River Acheron

It's very tough to talk about this episode because of....reasons that cannot be talked about yet. Hell I'm afraid saying that may be too much info. I can't really comment on the reasons that this episode resonates in retrospect later on. It makes it so that I couldn't really say why I sorta liked it. I think it's safe to say this. This is an episode that goes up a grade or so upon rewatch, after watching all 90's Trek. Other than that, I THINK i know what you're talking about, but I think it holds most aspects to future continuity rather than breaking it. Not that some things aren't broken, but yea. Thats all I can say for now. I swear I am trying hard to be careful lol.

JHVJ

There was an actual war between the federation and the cardassians prior to tng. Obrien was in actual combat and killed a cardassian enemy combatant, iirc. In The Wounded, Obriens former captain goes rogue because he believes the cardassians are planning to restart the war or something.

River Acheron

This reaction lowkey made me spit out my Pepsi. Love it!!

Paul

Eh, but at a certain point, if an order is evil, regardless of how much it was deliberated, following orders is no excuse, and in fact it becomes one's duty to disregard those orders. I do respect that the Admiral at least tried to fight it using official channels.

Devon Cooper

Awesome! Enjoying your journey! Didn’t realize you guys were in Ohio as well🤩

Greg Quinn

I get what you are saying. But I think it makes sense if one imagines a winding path not a straight one.

beanKounter

Having just rewatched Season 1 Where No One Has Gone Before, the end scene has Picard summoning Wesley to bridge, immediately making him an Acting Ensign and ordering him to begin his Starfleet Studies. Joining Starfleet was expected of him. So his realization that his isn’t for him makes sense. It was never his choice. It also mirrors real-life Wil Wheaton

Greg Quinn

I still think the traveler was stirring Wesley up some but on another watch it wasn't as overt as I originally felt.

Greg Quinn

True ..and the federation has been shown to be more military capable. So a skirmish for the federation would be a huge war for the Cadassian. Remember how easily Maxwell was cutting through Cardassian ships. They were totally outgunned against a federation ship.

Anthony Hernandez

I’m with Josh, I always really liked this episode. It’s great see the traveler again, and for the series to follow up on a season 1 thread. Also, utilizing the Native Americans to be the vessel that Wesley uses to begin this journey is cool because I have such respect for their cultures and beliefs and their deep spiritual ties. With Gates, you can see about 100 emotions and thoughts go through her in the space of 3 seconds when she is saying goodbye to Wesley.

David Kirk

Numinous2019, Spoiler alert!

Ken R

Besides Ensign Ro, Wesley is my favorite member of TNG. He happens to star in a few solid episodes, he is also the only one in the crew that is appropriate for the on the nose, sentimental, and wholesome writing. In a show that has consistently written adults in stories for kids going as far back as Data's 10 yr old pen pal and Worf's sadness he isn't going to have a Bar Mitzvah with pain sticks, Wesley was the actual kid that should have gotten the story about being awkward with girls, not Geordi. The first Traveler episode was one of the best of the bleak season one, and First Duty is just one of the best period. He also featured prominently in Datalore, another solid episode, The Game, a pretty fun one, and he was also involved in the decent season two episode with the little thingies that came to life, and the one where Beverly was alone on the ship. He also had a nice scene with the kid and the dead mother. People resent him needlessly because he was a kid starring in adult stories, but that's a lot better for my money than adults starring in children's stories.

Jovet

4:00 Nope! You will never guess. LOL!

Jovet

I neither love nor hate this one. Somehow I'm sitting between you two. 😁

Jovet

1:12:10 The war was with the Federation. By my recollection it was retconned to have been happening when TNG started. The treaty was signed 3-4 seasons earlier, when the Cardassians first appeared on the series.

Miranda

This premise doesn't really work for me because of the fact that these people are *colonists* who apparently moved to a planet in disputed territory on the border of a war zone. So, I find the messaging here to be incredibly mixed. Like, these people aren't native to this planet. They are colonists, expressly stated in this episode. So, I'm not sure why we should be defending colonists rights to live in disputed territory when the Federation signed a treaty calling it Cardassian territory. I can never get past this contradiction at the center of this Maquis story. When Picard talks about "Oh, the history of these people being forced from their lands"... yeah, we all agree that it was terrible and inhumane. But this *isn't* their land. They are colonists here. We don't owe them this planet now, like it somehow absolves sins of the past. So paradoxically, in a way, Picard here is supporting colonialist expansion into alien territory. This whole premise breaks my brain. I wish TNG hadn't given this impassioned "Let the Natives keep their land" defense, which is kind of nonsensical in the wider in-universe context, as opposed to a real-world context. Also, the Federation was clearly weak here, because if they refused to defend this planet in Treaty negotiations, then they conceded it is Cardassian territory, therefore they should have forcibly removed these colonists. Which is probably a hot take, but I'll stand by it.

paultardspambot .

not retconned. I'd say that the invasion of Soukara was the real end before TNG but border skirmishes went on for the next two years before a cease fire was formalized. Recall that the Federation probably couldnt seal the deal because the gillworms were weakening starfleet

paultardspambot .

I like this one. I thought it worked well and the vision/spiritual aspect worked for me but it depends on whether youve had an expereince like that to some extent to relate.

Ragnarok

Guys….how do you reference The Wounded *all the time* without remembering that there was a Federation-Cardassian war? You know, with the main thing you reference being O’Brien and his “It’s not *you* I hate, Cardassian; it’s what I became *because of* you”? 😆 Edit: Yeah, there we go. You called back to it. But still. Haha. And to be clear, I wouldn’t think anything of it at all if you’d just forgotten normally; it’s *only* because you reference it so much that I thought it notable at all.

Ragnarok

Well, yeah, it was expected because he made it *extremely clear* from the very moment he wanted to see the bridge, and especially sat in Picard’s chair and knew the controls on the arms that that was what *he* wanted.

Tim Nikiforovs

Well to be fair, when they settled there it wasn't cardassian territory. Sure it wasn't the safest part of UFP space, but they couldn't have known their planet would be given away out from under them.

BN13

How would YOU know if it comes off as rude to them? Have you directly asked them? Or are you just making your own conclusions based on your OWN values, and your OWN culture, and what YOU think is rude? You've just read evidence from somebody that HAS interacted with them, they they directly said that they do NOT find it rude. Why do you think that your own conclusion on what you think a Native American finds rude matters more than what an ACTUAL Native American finds rude? How about not putting words in the mouths of other cultures, trying to defend and speak on their behalf, while pretending that you actually care about their views when you don't even know what those views are? And this isn't just you. This is a real problem that I see in our society as a whole. People think they are the ultimate authority on what others find offensive, when in actuality, they usually know nothing at all about the group of people they're trying to "protect" from feeling offended. In fact, you're far more likely to offend another group by trying to protect them from things that you think they should be offended by, than by the actual offensive thing itself, which they likely don't even find offensive at all. Want to find out if somebody ACTUALLY finds something offensive? Ask them directly as a human being, not a label, and respect their views. Until then, don't assume anything, and always be willing to learn.

EmptyDice

Maybe he was interested in science and exploration, not so much in Starfleet. When I was a kid, I wanted to become a pilot, so I joined the Air Cadets. It turned me off of everything military and as an adult I got my pilot license on my own.

BN13

I made some comments on here earlier about how I wasn't really a fan of this one. Particularly regarding the whole "Wesley is a Time Lord now" thing. However, upon actually WATCHING this episode again, surprisingly I actually really like it now. Mainly because I've been getting into a bunch of spiritual stuff lately such as Near Death Experiences (NDEs) and studying various teachings from various religions. So now I actually really appreciate this episode from that perspective. In particular, the words of the Native Americans and the Traveler in this episode actually really line up with all of that. I can even appreciate the Wesley plot now. Both him being a total jerk at first because he's basically going through a spiritual crisis and doesn't know how to handle it except by lashing out, and even the ending where he pulls himself out of time. I can appreciate the ending now if I interpret that as if pulling ourselves out of what we consider reality into 4D space or whatever, is actually something that all humans are, or will eventually become capable of. Maybe Wesley is just a little more evolved there, like he's the next step. But ultimately maybe his journey is no different than our own. I also used to never understand why Native Americans were in this episode at all. But again, it makes sense if the whole point of the episode was to give Wesley a spiritual journey to tie up all of the Traveler stuff earlier in the show, and give him a sendoff out of Star Fleet. The Native Americans were just a vehicle because their beliefs tie in with a journey like that, and with stuff that the Traveler says. Also I didn't feel any white guilt or preachiness here. The Picard ancestor thing not only is a good character thing for Picard to deal with, as Josh said. But I also interpret the Native American belief here not as "Picard is directly responsible for something his ancestor did 700 years ago," but as this being an example of Native Americans also believing a common abstact spiritual concept that we are all connected on a spirit/soul level. And on THAT level, our ancestors still guide and influence us, or in this case, can create karmic debts. Unfortunately, I'm not familiar enough with any real Native American beliefs to know how accurate anything presented in this episode actually is to those cultures, but that is a common spiritual concept in many belief systems, and I think I remember hearing that Native Americans believe that as well.

Paul

They remember the character moments more than the technical aspects; they discuss it here thinking it was just a small skirmish or maybe going down to rescue some other colony and being caught in the crossfire.

Katie Clayton

Such a great discussion. But Josh is right. It's a good episode that gave a satisfying resolution to a returning character. Plus Gates' face acting is unparalleled.

reactive1

Barely a banger… B-

Loot Narsbaar

Evil? The treaty may be unpopular but the idea, as said in The Wounded, "Preserve the peace, the Federation cannot handle a new sustained conflict." Starfleet is over a barrel here. They may have fucked up but I don't accept "evil."

Loot Narsbaar

Your experience isn't everyone's experience. I've known people where the preferred name is definitely "Native" and not "Indian."

River Acheron

I just personally don't see an issue with the term Indian. I legit have actually talked to one who said it's not rude. Could it be rude to some, yes. I get one person cannot speak about their entire culture but tbh that term is and has NEVER been considered offensive. Historically inaccurate yes. But it's not a trigger-warning politically correct issue as far as I have ever been aware.

Steve Syme

Why is every human religion in Star Trek gone except for American Indian religions?

Derek Orr

Because we will need to shed superstitions about supernatural gods in order to reach the stars

Derek Orr

Why? Are you a Picard ancestor?

Derek Orr

How is he creepy ?

Derek Orr

I’ve never heard of any fan considering this episode to be one of the worst

Skye Maidstone

Still think this is dull and a heavy handed clunker of an episode. Wil Weaton is a dick IRL which doesn't help.

penoyer79

Fun fact... the actor who played "The Traveler" Eric Menyuk was the finalist for the role of Data and was given the role of The Traveler as a consolation.