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UNCUT - The Maquis Part 1 (DS9 S2E20) | Star Trek Journey 317 (Patreon)

Published:
2025-10-19 14:00:09
Edited:
2026-11-01 04:53:49
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Jonathon Tsagris

If you guys don’t watch the intro; how are you going to get mad when they spoil guests in the credits?

Tim Nikiforovs

I was having a discussion on the discord the other day regarding times when Star Trek gets "preachy", and about what. Funny enough The Maquis is an example of Star Trek getting preachy about.... itself, and I'm totally fine with that. Let's face it, we all know that for all the advancements and prosperity, and as much as we would all choose to live in the federation given the chance, there's also a lot of bullshit that goes along with that. Whether it's corrupt/incompetent admirals, policies that put civilians in danger(families on ships), or in this case a terrible treaty that should never have been agreed to. As I said in my Journey's End comment, the Cardassians are nowhere near big or powerful enough to MAKE the federation agree to anything. Chain of Command paints the Cardassians as having been bankrupted to the point their people were starving in Madred's youth, and while there may have been Third Reich style economic recovery, much of that would have been wasted on 20 years of war. On the Federation side, most people barely paid attention to it. The people directly involved carry the scars, but like one comment said it was akin to Vietnam, just minus all the negative press. This treaty was just a showcase of very weak leadership. The fact that Federation/Starfleet leadership can muck things up so badly that it inspires the creation of a terrorist network AND at least one of their own officers chooses to join them is a pretty big indictment of the squeaky clean future Trek always sold us on, and it certainly challenges the whole "we've evolved past that" narrative. This is something I love about DS9. It doesn't say those goals aren't something we should strive for. Sisko's speech to the prophets in Emissary is quintessential Trek. But DS9 presents a far less naive view of that future. And yes, FINALLY Marc Alaimo gets a chance to shine as Dukat(he was of course Great in The Wounded). His appearances until now have mostly been teases and cameos, but having him go on this buddy cop adventure with Sisko was such a treat. We don't really know anything about him except he was a big part of the occupation, and it's perfectly reasonable for Sisko to be concerned about Jake's safety after Dukat infiltrated the station and broke into his quarters. But of course then we learn he has kids himself(and apparently no condoms). Is Dukat still capable of being a cold blooded killer? Well we know plain simple Garak is, and it would be pretty on brand for the Cardassians, so probably. I guess the best way to classify Dukat is "complicated", and it's fuckin great. As far as the whole back and forth in the runabout where Dukat pulled the whole "we're not interested in your outdated technology" routine, I think that was largely keeping up appearances. Do the Cardassians have pursuit vessels that are vastly better than a Runabout? Yeah probably, I don't think he was lying per se. But I think it's akin to riding in a Blackhawk and bragging about how "we have fighter jets that could kick this thing's ass". Yeah no shit, so do we. The Wounded is a pretty good example of what happens when you compare apples to apples. The Phoenix walked all over them, and the attack on the Enterprise at the start was little more than a nuisance.

Tim Nikiforovs

They gotta switch up their bits during the intro for S3. They did the log entries for S1, this season it's "we'll be back to check on this in a few hours", maybe they can roleplay a drunk shuttle pilot almost running into a comet and circling around the station trying to figure out where to dock for S3.

Ee'char

So... in case you weren't aware, Rick Berman was pretty much the Gene Roddenberry of this era of Trek. Michael Pillar was the DS9 showrunner.

Target Audience

Maybe they should spoil the guest in the intro like The Expanse did and we missed it lmao

THE Fans

Something that TOS and TNG couldn't deliver was top tier reoccurring characters. Especially, antagonists. DS9 has the best characters you love to hate. When Dukat speaks, you can hear him saying "Why don't you trust me? I promise I'll be gentle as I twist the knife."

paultardspambot .

you're forgetting that a reason the Federation mucked up the end of the Cardassian war was the gillworm invasion. The gillworms were intentionally weakening starfleet so that surely played into it. I disagree somewhat. It's important that the Federation is utopian. Not flawless, but utopian relative to our world. DS9 is all about shades of gray, but it's still about what it takes to defend those utopian ideals in non-ideal situations. As far as Cardassian tech, I think what makes Cardassia a serious enemy is its intelligence apparatus. There's braggart in Dukat, but... again, I'm going to keep pointing out the gillworm thing, but they really messed up starfleet. The Galaxy class was a boondoggle. The federation was also a little overconfident after the FEd/klingon alliance made them the equivalent of the US in the 90s. Took the borg threat to get them serious about military tech (and the interpretation that Q is actually helping in his own way, though that gets very deep and I'll have more to say later.) Also, I don't think Starfleet having superior weapons technology means they are like, centuries ahead of the Cardasians. Probably more comparable to the modern US and Russia. Less advanced doesn't mean "not a threat"

Jonathon Tsagris

I haven’t decided what is more entertaining - you guys being surprised by a guest star after not paying attention to the credits; or you being spoiled by the credits and raging about it.

Seth Walker

There have been plenty of great DS9 episodes up to this point but this... This is the moment when DS9 finally kicks in the door and declares itself the greatest Trek series. There will still be bad episodes but from this moment on DS9 has a mission and a purpose with its narrative that just continues to get deeper and deeper as it goes along. Buckle up.

Todd “Canuck” Schmuck

Sarek had relations with human women I’d imagine because he was the Vulcan ambassador to Earth and thus spent a lot of time with humans(I think I remember him stating it was logical BECAUSE he was the Earth ambassador and it helped him understand humans). 🤷‍♂️

Tim Nikiforovs

Yeah a US/Russia tech gap is about right. The Cardassians are a few decades behind most likely. That's plenty though.

Ramen Nudels

Part 1 has been in the title of 2 parters starting with chain of command.

tyranusfan

I always like the “political “ stories of DS9. It takes full advantage of the notion that the station doesn’t move on at the end of every episode like the Enterprise does. What they handle in October can come back to bite them in December.

Collin Freeman

Does the right hand know what the left hand is doing?

Collin Freeman

You're right, Alex: the reveal of Calvin is a case of hide in plain sight. Great magic trick.

paultardspambot .

So you seemed confused about the Vulcan. She was arranging quarters for the guy who blew up the Cardassian ship and informed him about a ship he was supposed to get on. She had nothing to do with his capture. The two aliens we saw watching them from the upper level were Cardassian agents who apprehended him on the station. She was then went to Quark because she knew he was a middleman who could set up a weapons purchase for the Maquis. Also, Vulcans can lie and do so all the time. In the episode of TOS where that was introduced we saw Spock engaged in an elaborate intelligence operation. Vulcans have been shown repeatedly to be capable of lying. Its silly to think they wouldn't be able to. The myth is just something useful. Probably it bothers them intrinsically to state falsehoods but they're perfectly capable of it if it's in service of a logical cause they believe in. How many time did Spock lie in the service of starfleet? The vulcan saboteur from Star Trek 6 lied plenty. I like the idea that the Vulcan was intrigued by Quark. It makes some sense since this Vulcan is already messing with her "shadow self". Yes, it could have been a fake out to get his trust, but I don't think that's what thry were going for. The Maquis are different from The Circle. The Circle were Bajoran extremists who were Bajoran nationalists who didn't want Bajor to be under the influence of any foreign power. The Maquis are former federation colonists who choose to stay in the demilitarized zone under Cardassian jurisdiction like the Indians from the last episode. Since other colonists decided to stay, it does seem odd that wasnt suggested to the Indians, but maybe that solution wound up being something a lot of colonists wanted and some time has passed since "Journey's End' and this episode. That's something about Trek, there's no need to think every episode takes the same amount of time as real world time. And Star Dates are time and location since you have to deal with where you are given relativistic timing so they dont translate to time like here on Earth. I guess the latter makes more sense, that the Indian solution was implemented for lots of colonists who didn't want to leave, or other colonies had already agreed to stay and live under Cardassian rule. One thing about the Maquis- yes, it's a bad situation, but when the commander is talking about how the Federation abandoned these people.. thats not really true. The Federation was willing to resettle them or they could have gone to Earth or some other Federation planet. But these are the sorts of people who for one reason or another left Earth or other Federation Planets to build colonies from scratch near a dangerous border. They are a certain type which makes sense they wouldn't want to leave. Probably the sort who didnt care much for the Federation anyway. BUT... I mean, from what we've seen, these arent colonies like entire planets of people. they are small settled areas. The people could have started again somwhere else, or have the Federation built their colonies to the exact way they were or.. pretty much anything. But no, they had to stay in those particular colonies because they had buiilt them and it was there community etc. But the Needs of the many outweight the needs of the few. When you consider the conseuences of intergalatic war, they are being pretty myopic in refusing any other option. Really, the federation's position should be- look, you guys choose to stay, we told you we werenrt going to protect you, deal with it. We will still help you leave if you want, but you accepted the consequences of staying and being under Cardassian rule. We aren't going to fight a war so you can stay on these specific planets. Then you also have your former starfleet member like Captain Maxwell who just thinks there can be no peace with the Cardaasians and Starfleet needs to.. i guess uterly destroy them. The cardassians are assholes no doubt. But I don't see how it's really up to the Federation at this point to do anything about this. Except one thing that I am confused about. They arent federation citizens anymore right? But Starfleet has an attache to the colonies? So is this different then the Indian situation? Like, ar ethey still federation citizens but living in Cardasian territory in a demilitarized zone? I wish they would clear that up a bit but its confusing. It matters a lot what the specifics are. Like if those same indians came back and said "defend us" it would be reasonable of the Federation to say "sorry,l we'll evacutae you but were not fighting the cardies for you." But are these colonies different? Federation citizens who are allowed to live on Cardassian planets by the treaty? without renouncing their federation citizenship? That seems like a terrible idea. I made this comment before the after episode discussion.

Christopher Boutwell

The ship that was blown up in the opening shot was in Star Trek 3 and was blown up by Klingons.

paultardspambot .

yeah, you said "oh we've seen those aliens before" not putting together they were observing him with the vulcan and were cardassian agents. She's part of the Maquis, she was trying to help the saboteur escape.

paultardspambot .

you guys are overthinking this a bit. The sabotuer was actually a maquis as was the vulcan. The maquis claim Central Command is arming their colonists in the demilitarized zone and the Cardassians are trying to claims the federation is arming their colonists. The Cardasians have agents who are surgically altered or other races who work for them (we already know they have used other races to ship weapons as Sisko pointed out)

Marko

The guy who planted the bomb was knocked out by those two aliens that were looking at him from above at the Promenade, they must have been working with the Cardassians. You said you remember their species, they were the aliens in the TNG Trill episode The Host, that were in dispute and the Trill negotiator was sent. It seems Trills are good negotiators, Beverly's crush, and Curzon as well.

xadg

Odo is not beating the allegations.

paultardspambot .

I think the definition of terrorism matters here. The "special evil" definition is killing semi-random members of a civilian population in order to terrorize the society for some ideological motivation. The word gets stretched, but that is the significant "negative meaning." Going after legitimate military targets is not terrorism. Authoritarians will claim any opponent that is forced to conduct assymetric warfare (aka where it's not armies and pitched battles) is terrorism. This gives a false ethical advantage to the more powerful force. There is another way authoritarians claim "terrorism" which is whan there opponent is not a recognized state. Again, this casts a rebel population as evil. In WW2, the "terror bombing" of London by the Luftwaften was called so because they were no longer going after military targets but bombing London somewhat indiscriminately. Putin calls Ukrainian fighters "terrorists" because he sees Ukraine as part of Russia. For "terrorism" to be meaningful as an evil. it has to be against civilian targets with the purpose of terrorizing a populace. It doesn't just mean an insurgency. The Maquis bomber- was not a terrorist. he wasn't blowing up a random cardassian ship, he was blowing up a ship that he believed was smuggling weapons, hence a legitimate military target. Kira was not a terrorist because she fought the Cardassian occupation force, she was a terrorist because she and her group didn't limit their targets to military personnel. But from their view, any Cardassian taking part of the occupation or any Bajoran collaborating was a valid target. If you're fighting an occupying force with overwhelming firepower, "playing by the rules" is a sure way to lose, because those rules are set up by the occupiers. They can send millions of Bajorans to death in labor camps and that's the legitimate actions of a military. But since the Bajorans wont line up in a row to be blown away, then they are "terrorists."

Target Audience

Perhaps I misunderstood, I thought it was said that the 75+ people on the blown up ship included civilians.

Target Audience

Also, the Cardassians wouldn’t be “terrorists” but they would absolutely be war criminals. Which is morally worse imo. Unfortunately, there’s just no one to hold them accountable (without war) since they aren’t in the federation.

paultardspambot .

here's a real world comparison. Donbas before the war. Although it was technically still part of Ukraine it was de facto independent. There was a no mans land where militias were still fighting. Zelensky went to some of the groups and told them to stop. They told him to fuck off. So after a few years, Putin used the excuse that Russians in Donbas were being killed by Ukrainian Nazis. Some of them WERE far right nationalists but there were a lot of different groups, and there far right Russian nationalists on the other side. Both sides were accussed of killing civilians, probably people they accussed rightly or wrongly of co-operating with the opposition. After years of this Putin uses it as an excuse to invade. Millions have died.

Darren

Love this one - Picard gets too swoop in give a speech to solve an issue before flying off, DS9 tho, they have to deal with the consequences…

paultardspambot .

They said 75 crewmen. I'm not sure about whether it was military or civilians, but if they were in fact just transporting supplies, it would be terrorism, if they were smuggling weapons its not (or rather, since he thought they were smuggling weapons it was not an act of intentional terrorism.) Compare it to Al-Qaeda. Flying planes into the twin towers? Terrorism. The bombing of the navy ship USS Cole? Not terrorism. My point was about how "special evil" words get extended from their original agreed upon "special evil" meaning to try and cover other things so as to shift "evil" to things that were definitely not included. Other examples would be too fraught politically but as an example, take labeling boycotts or sit ins as "economic terrorism." My point about the terror bombing of London during ww2 was that the term "terror" in context of war had a specific meaning which is where "terrorist" derived from- the targeting of civllians to terrorize the population. hence the term "state terrorism". The word "terrorism" has been so overused in the past decades, its useful to look back and see what it actually was that gave that word a "special evil" connotation. The terrorists in the TNG episode were going after civilian targets. As you pointed out, for the Cardassians to be "war criminals" there has to be some agreed upon rules for war. The Bajorans consider some war criminals, but the Cardassian Union clearly doesn't agree.

paultardspambot .

wait really? There were no Cardassians in Star Trek 3. Did they reuse a previous ship model from Star Trek 3 and say it was cardessian? The ship certainly looked to have a cardassian design

Duncan McDonald

Really hits it's stride from here on in. So happy you didn't anticipate the reveal until the last few seconds! The Quark/Vulcan stuff was ace too.

Elizabeth N

Loved this reaction! This is one of the things I love most about DS9. When things happen, they have long term consequences. There's no flying off to a new planet at the end of every episode. DS9 is great at exploring the deeper issues that come of decisions made by the higher ups, whether that's to do with Bajor/Cardassia or with the Federation. Very excited for what is to come!

Ryan

Pretty prescient of you guys to say “Journey’s End” seemed like it couldn't have existed without DS9's influence. Well, guess what... Regarding Odo and his draconian security tendencies, I think the showrunners are going for the same kind of uncomfortable morality discussion they got so good at with Worf on TNG. We had all these moments where we had to face the fact that Worf's moral code was not the same as his human counterparts, from the light stuff (how he went to town on Riker's garbage scrambled eggs) to the heavier fare (not donating blood to the Romulan, killing Duras). It was a good examination of our assumption that every Star Trek race has the same moral code as humans, which obviously they do not. Not saying I agree with Odo (I don't), I just appreciate that the show makes me ask myself why I think Odo *should* have certain views.

Ian Ramsey

Okay. You did this to yourselves. We're going to need that political ad instead of a cinematic trailer for this episode now. You have all our faith.

Terminaldogma01

Ewww, I got youtube clips in my uncut reaction….

paultardspambot .

so I'm guessing you're not doing the "watch two parters as one" this time because there is a TNG episode sandwiched between this two parter?

Terminaldogma01

I was totally expecting you guys to be “oh the Federation guy is the bad guy OBVIOUSLY!”

tyranusfan

I was wondering that too

Keith S

There is a book of how Sarek met Amada. It also delt with her passing and how he delt with that. It's a book so it is basically beta cannon still a good read. The title of the book is Sarek of course.

Jon1701

We’ve finally arrived. 👌

Beagle Boy

You aint seen nothing yet

Jon1701

This may have been mentioned before. Another actor originally shot the role of Dukat on the first day during Emissary (the pilot) but the producers realised they had miscast and brought Alaimo in.

tyranusfan

I can imagine Federation diplomats toiling for 3 years on this treaty, only to have every Starfleet officer in the field, from Admiral Nechayev to Commanders like Sisko and Hudson along the border object to it, and their reaction would likely be "oh, the military never likes compromise." (Not to reopen a wound, but this is the same Starfleet that objected so badly to peace with the Klingons 80 years earlier, so the politicians might well just ploy ahead over the Fleet's objections.)

Ross Townsend

That was the best final 10 seconds of any review you guys have ever made. EVER.

Philbot

I’m wondering how long after Journeys end this episode is? because it all blew up in their faces awfully quick. We don’t even learn about other colonies aside from the Indians electing to stay in Cardassian territory.. I can understand the Maqui fighting for their “land” but it seems like once you have to move to secret bases or move your family, leave your “land” for safety they could have left in the first place.

Philbot

If they did part 2’s won’t necessarily interfere with any of the continuity of the in between episode.

Philbot

I think they were all civilians one guy was in a military uniform, but he may have been like an air marshal.

Sam Langanke

Finally Alex said it: Odo thinks he is about justice but he is really about order.

Philbot

Every time there’s a ransom shooting especially.. 🏫 I’m like if you have a point to make or some specific grievance go after the government not a bunch of randos at a concert or something.

Philbot

Maybe they were surgically altered Cardassian agents.

Christopher Boutwell

Yeah, I just double checked and did a side-by-side. They definitely used the same model. Only difference I can see is a little difference in coloring. In Star Trek three, it’s the ship that Christopher Lloyd’s character blew up after gaining information about the Genesis project. It’s implied that his girlfriend was the Klingon woman on the ship.

Philbot

I sing “brace of the cart” over DS9’s drone but they can’t 😉

Evan Guthrie

Sounds pretty FASCIST to me.

Evan Guthrie

Yeah, pleasantly surprised they didn't catch the badmiral (badmander?)

Evan Guthrie

I don't see Dukat as a villain. A checkered past, sure, but very interesting and complex. He is almost entirely good in this episode.

James H

SISKO: Are these colonists organizing some kind of terrorist campaign? HUDSON: Well, if they are, they're not about to tell me about it. Another line that isn’t a lie. Why would they be “about to tell” him what he already knows?

James H

You got your uncut reaction in my YouTube clips! (Sorry, too many Reese’s commercials in my youth.)

Justin B

One of my favorite episodes and favorite reactions of the season. Keep it up, guys. You're now discovering why we all love DS9 so much!

Derek Locke

They are watching like we all did back in the day, in the order it was all released.

Derek Locke

So, there's a throw away conversation in this episode that you guys should try to keep in the back of your minds, when they are talking about the Badlands.

paultardspambot .

yeah, I think this is a good example of what people mean when they say DS9 is more serialized. I got the vibe they were sort of against serialization though I don't really get that. It's not that there aren't individual stories, but things matter, it's not just press the reset button everytime so the casuals can not get confused and no stakes because everything will be back to normal next week

paultardspambot .

oh, he's a villian all right. It's funny, the showrunners actually ran into the problem of so many fans buying into Dukat's BS.

paultardspambot .

I think he IS about justice but also has a strong preference for order. Maybe some tendency inherent to his biology as he suggested.

paultardspambot .

yeah, I made a similar comment. It seemed like the Indians were giving up their Federation citizenship, but the colonists here seem to be Federation colonists living under Cardassian jurisdiction in the demilitarized zone? I made the case in a comment below, if it's the same deal as the Indians, starfleet really has no obligation to protect them, they made it clear what they were signing up for. But the whole "still citizens of the federation" part is confusing. We can imagine quite some time passed between the two episodes and most colonists wanted the Indian thing. Trek doesnt have to pass in "real time." There have been epsidoes that take days or weeks and episodes that occur in entirely one day. And as I've said, you can't go by stardate since the stardate system is based on both time and location do to the relativistic nature of time and the vast distance between places in the galaxy. Most people don't seem to grok that, but it would be impossible to have a single reference for time, it would have t be relative to your position. (General Relativity amigos)

paultardspambot .

In my headcanon I treat books as possible alternate timelines

Linda Thackeray

There is a Pocket Book Star Trek novel - Vulcan, I think that states that Sarek and Amanda got together when they were trying to write a Vulcan-human dictionary or something...

paultardspambot .

Yeah, the guys joked about "fascist" Odo but the show has been making it clear while he cares deeply about justice, he DOES have a bit of an authoritarian streek. I think his reaction here is his frustration that he's an outsider who starfleet doesn't trust and will blame when security things go wrong but he is required to follow their rules. He feels defensive because there have been a few incidents but he feels he's getting blamed when hes being held back by regulations. His comment "say what you will it was safer then" didn't really mean he supported the occupation, he's made his feelings on that clear, but sort of a sarcastic frustration that presumably the Federation ties his hands more then the Cardassians did.

paultardspambot .

well that was a large point of the subversive take of Wrath of Khan which they didn't care for. Kirk would "solve" these problems but he wouldnt really ever check back to see how things went, and realistically it was unlikely he solved all those societies problems and in hindsight a lot of what he did was pretty reckless.

paultardspambot .

well it would be interesting if they were smuggling weapons but not everyone on the crew knew about it, which given the way cardassians do things (if they WERE smuggling) people were probably on a need to know basis.

paultardspambot .

I wonder if they are ever going to get to that really weird trek show. The one where Cardassian agents get surgically altered to look like humans and go back in time to act like spoiled rich people to corrupt Earth's morals before they join the Federation. They might miss it because it doesn't have Trek in the title, it's called "Keeping up with the Cardassians"

StealthMomo

Sarek was the Vulcan ambassador to Earth and was living in Boston, Massachusetts when he met and fell in love with Boston University teacher Amanda Grayson. He found her to be intellectually stimulating and “most intriguing”. Also, Amanda is canonically a descendant of Sir Arthur Conan Doyle. Source: Sarek! by A.C. Crispin. Published by Pocket Books. January 1994

James H

Mental reservation.

Darren

Should check out that video

Mister Hope

He’s definitely a villain. He’s just so charismatic and charming that it’s hard not to like him even though he’s a monster.

TC Green

So excited for this stretch of episodes ending the season. Also love how the previous TNG episode helped set up this two parter.

Sam Langanke

I think you comment waaaay to much here.

Sir, This is A Quark's.

Oh man. Just finished the episode, no discussion yet... but I truly thought one of you would clock the "curse your envitable betrayal" best friend character. 🖖🤣 So glad you didn't. Love these reactions.

Narnman

Nice timing to watch this episode with Sisko and Calvin Hudson reminiscing about good ol days of Oktoberfest beers, and lederhosen at New Berlin

Sir, This is A Quark's.

Yeah and Genesis falling in Hallowe'en month. Random verisilmilitude. 🖖

Narnman

didnt know that, thank heavens too

DG

Some of the discussion of Dukat in these comments is too spoilery for my liking.

jon bolton

I'm glad you both loved this one, i'd have been surprised if you didn't. Definite S.

BN13

He's definitely a villain. However, in this episode, I agree he's almost entirely good. He's actually more like Jellico. Everything he says is actually in the right from a certain perspective. I think in this episode, he's more of an example that Cardassians in general aren't just 100% one-dimensional bad guy nazis. Even their military. Yes, their society is authoritarian. But like the Ferengi, once you accept that about them, they are actually a wonderfully intelligent and complex people who are also very pragmatic. I find their psychology fascinating.

Forbidden Donut

This episode is good, but... is it Genesis good?

Forbidden Donut

On the topic of when DS9 finally 'arrives' or 'hits its stride', I personally tend to think its around the episode Profit and Loss because I really like both it and Blood Oath, and also because one episode adds depth to Quark's character, then the next does the same for Jadzia Dax while also giving us the return of the TOS Klingons and I like how that all goes together. However, I think the most obvious choice probably does have to be The Maquis. Not just for its quality, but for how it expands the story, adds more lore/fleshes things out even more, gives multiple characters good scenes to work with, and it really demonstrates how good the serialized storytelling can be on this series. I think an argument could be made for the start of the season just from the 3-part beginning, but there's still a lot of Season 1-ish stuff between then and now, that I have a hard time committing to that. I still think the show doesn't fully peak until Season 4, but from here on in it's mostly good to very good, with moments of greatness IMO.

Ricky

So my interpretation of Sisko, especially in his exchange with Kira, is that he actually agrees with her completely. Throughout the series so far, Sisko has walked a fine line between two sides of himself: one being his genuine personal self, and the other a devoted Starfleet officer. In this episode, Commander Cal Hudson reflects the part of Sisko that is most true to who he is. Their friendship, the bond between their wives, their shared experiences, and their equal rank all underscore that connection. Sisko’s conversation with Kira isn’t really an argument. He’s playing devil’s advocate, torn between the truth Kira represents and his duty to Starfleet. She is the voice he wants to follow, but his loyalty and sense of command hold him back. This conflict echoes the earlier exchange between Kira and Odo about order and principle. Odo stands at one extreme, Kira at the other, and Sisko is caught right between them, struggling to reconcile truth and loyalty (in this scene, Kira and Odo stand at opposite sides of a table and Sisko's office lines up between the two). When Sisko ends the scene by pressing the door control and turning away from Kira, it’s not because he’s choosing to ignore her. It’s because he’s not ready, or perhaps not yet able, to face what that truth demands of him. That moment visually captures his inner struggle, a man suspended between conviction and identity, still searching for who he will become as the events unfold.

Josef Nitervol

Great Episode :)))))))) Best DS9 reaction thus far!

Sunny

I like this episode now that I get it was coming right after Journey’s End. I originally didn’t watch in that order because I didn’t have much background in Star Trek aside from my mom loving TOS from when she first came to the US. So it felt like this conflict came from nowhere and it made me think of people as disloyal. Makes a lot more sense and much more ambiguous as an adult having seen all of TNG and understanding the timing.

Trekkie74205

The wall of writers in this case was for legal reasons. As this was setting something up for the future, the Executive Producers (Berman, Piller, Taylor) were added, so there could never be a dispute that they created the Maquis.

Ricky

I almost forgot to mention! The first scene Sisko and Commander Cal Hudson have alone together. Hudson says he had wished he and Sisko would have had more time together for R&R with their change in command roles, but that ultimately was not afforded to them. This moment is another example designed to show that Hudson is one half of Sisko, the part that is his authentic self, and Sisko in this scene saying, "who has time for R&R?" is representative of his other half, the Starfleet half. The messaging here is to not lose yourself to the order of things. If we lose ourselves to the order of things (which is a call back to the Kira and Odo argument), reconciling with the truth becomes a harder task and the consequences can be grave.

Numinous2019

It's a very well crafted episode, but I think it was a mistake having Bernie Casey play his character so subdued. Brooks is already playing Sisko in a similar manner. Both actors normally play their roles with more energy and emotion. Hudson's reveal may justify Casey's lower key performance, but I still feel this story needed that bit extra he could have given it.

Laurie Rebisz

Indeedy doodly.... so many Easter Eggs here !! - Love it !

Cinedazed

Bernie Casey actually auditioned for and was considered for the role of Sisko. The detail about both men having dead wives is building up an idea of Hudson as almost an alternate version of Sisko, played by an actor who could have ended up in the role. So it's a neat meta-level to the parallels between the two characters the writers are drawing.

JHVJ

I actually didnt realize this came right after Journey's End. We just established that whole thing with the federation colonies within cardassian space, because of that treaty. Nice cross-show coordination ^^.

Tom

Yeah, this was a great episode, but it's still just warming up in my opinion.

Aaron Wells

Dukat is the best villain in all of Trek IMO. He is compelling, menacing, charismatic, gregarious, empathetic, and even charming. He is that viper that smiles winningly at you just before he strikes. Marc Alaimo is brilliant as Dukat. He is THE Cardassian, all respect to David Warner.

Todd

Feel like this is the episode where DS9 finally arrives.

Aaron Wells

I agree completely with Josh with regard to the term terrorism or terrorist. Like a lot of other politically charged words, it does get thrown around excessively, or is used too little to describe what is in fact, textbook terrorism. Its an actual term with an actual definition, and should be appropriately used. The good or the evil of it is entirely relative. The early 1990's, that long lost pre-9/11 world, was certainly better at using this term appropriately, and understanding the importance of context and relative point of view. Now "terrorist" is an epithet that gets tossed around as casually as "stupid-face", and it's maddening when definitions of terms are disregarded. It's now right up there with "Nazi" and "Communist/Socialist" on the scale of idiotically misapplied terms. Yes, Kira was a terrorist. So are the Maquis. It doesn't matter who's side you're on.

shanetown

In real time, this episode aired about a month after Journey's End. Of course television frequently compresses time for narrative purposes...

Scarpad’s Domain

This is where DS9 Finds itss footing and the story Begins Buckle Up

Scarpad’s Domain

DS9 has episodes that you can have long conversations on, moreso than any other trek Series, Including TOS

JoeMama47

We literally saw the Enterprise fly away from the situation last episode and on to something else. Now DS9 has to deal with the fallout.

Scarpad’s Domain

Starfleet doesnt sucks , are their bad things that happen yes, but they have their right intention, being right all the time is boring, being a terrorist depends on which side your on,

Scarpad’s Domain

I didnt think he was subdued at all i think casey was pitch perfect

Scarpad’s Domain

It's been mentioned that it got more serialized when the powers that be started the next series launching it on a New Network UPN that they forgot about DS9 and were more Hands off

Scarpad’s Domain

He was a Complex villian whose love for cadassia is true dispite the morally twisted stuff he does to prove it

Michael Nemo

Better than I remember but it shares more than a few story beats with Homecoming circle siege for me to consider it wholly amazing.

Better Watch Trek

Where I look up the watching order, the airing date for Journeys End is 1994-03-26 and for Marquis I 1994-04-24 - so for the viewer there was a jump in time of nearly one month. Also, the episodes 'Blood Oath' and 'Firstborn' are listed inbetween them.

Better Watch Trek

episode is great, your reaction is great, and your intro reaction is entertaining as hell! :)

Evan Guthrie

Maybe they shouldn't have written him so well.

Sunny

It’s entertaining BS!

Paul

Can't say much for spoiler reasons. I agree with Josh, I love Star Trek.

Some Guy

"Its fiction"

Boggle

I love the Maquis. They are the sort of antagonist that you want to root for. Because they are three dimensional and have layers of good and bad. A longish comment on a trivial thing: The comment about the Runabout's technology is a little silly. It is essentially the Federation's all-purpose Minivan. It's classified as a Starship, but it's more of a jacked-up shuttlecraft and certainly nothing approaching high tech, much less super-secret bleeding edge. The speed, shields, and weapons are all mid-tier at best. Its main advantages are that it's cheap, simple to produce, has a long range, and the mostly off the shelf plug-in modularity gives it the ability to be tailored to individual missions without needing a deck for each one individually as per typical larger Starships. It's basically the Federation version of the US Navy Littoral Combat Ships. Only it actually worked in the role, unlike the Americans ships, haha. I suppose you could compare it to the larger Coast Guard Cutters that the US uses too. ETA: I realize I'm babbling about something many don't care about. My apologies. I just love ships, both fictional and real.

Mike Rogers

Bernie Casey... U.N. Jefferson from Revenge Of The Nerds. Classic.

Some Guy

They experimented with the archaic form of torture known as "reality television" in the early 21st century.

Boggle

A big part of why the Federation wanted to settle with the Cardassians was because of the losses the Borg inflicted on the Federation a year or two earlier. At this point in time, the Federation was stretched thin and desperately rebuilding their fleets with both new ships and restoring older ships as a stopgap. The treaty itself is sort of the latter even, imo. It's a stopgap to allow the Federation time to restore their military strength.

MJBull

Not from a certain point of view.

MJBull

Siskois having to go and clean up after Picard's little act of mercy. I had forgotten this was the next star Trek episode after Journey's End.

Jack Fletcher

Dukat is the best villain in all of Trek for sure, with a very legit arc

Greg Quinn

Wait ..you guys don't like blood oath now? Didn't Josh actually like it a good bit and Alex have some issues but come around more as the discussion went on?

Sainjl

Well by the end, TA said it would have been better if they hadn’t done the episode… I believe. I think they want to like it but don’t.

#MaxwellDidNothingWrong

Gul Dukat is a Cardassian. You cannot judge him purely with human morality. With that mindset ALL Cardassians are evil and therefore an evil race and therefore nothing you do to them in unjust.

Miranda

As I said in the Journey's End, the entire premise of the Maquis is hopelessly muddled for me. They were colonists in the first place, not Natives. So this isn't their ancestral land to start with. Now, apparently they had to move for "safety"? Then, the agreement in Journey's End was that they give up their Federation citizenship to stay there. So, I don't know why we are calling them Federation citizens in this episode. If they are Federation citizens then Starfleet damn well needs to honor the treaty and move them. This was literally the deal Picard argued for. And frankly, I understand why the Cardassian government wouldn't really see a distinction there, regardless. And it is easy to understand why they believe the Federation is supporting terrorism against them. Like, this is a very easy propaganda win for Cardassia. Which is something I believe Sisko recognizes. And I think this is why he is so upset about all this. These episodes annoy me, because the premise is nonsensical.

#MaxwellDidNothingWrong

Same with the Cardassians. You can't just conclude they are 'evil' just because their morality has them act this way or that - you have to look to their motivations, and what they hope to achieve.

Miranda

I don't like the Maquis episodes, but I do like that Sisko is obviously so annoyed that this just became his problem, even though he did nothing to cause it. Edited: By "Maquis episodes" I mean both The Maquis Part 1 and Part 2. I'm not a big fan of these. I don't hate them, or anything. But I find part 1 to be around B- and part 2 to come in around a C+.

#MaxwellDidNothingWrong

"I'm so glad a Starfleet higher up has made this jump. Has made the switch. And says - you know what? no. fuck this. starfleet sucks, this is terrible what we're doing here" *ahem* *clears throat*

Jonathan Llyr

Very entertaining reaction and I’m encouraged by how much you guys enjoyed this episode. It’s the tiniest tip of the iceberg of how incredible this series will become. I’m here for all of it.

JHVJ

Wikipedia says: Blood Oath - March 27th, Journeys End - March 28th, The Maquis Part 1 - April 24th, Firstborn - April 25th. Alex and Josh watch in release order, I trust they do it right.

Target Audience

We were mixed-positive on it, I said it wasn’t our favorite.

Sainjl

Oh I stand corrected, then

DustmanNorochj

I love that you both pop for Gul Dukat. A great character played by an amazing actor.

Narnman

i get the gist of what you're saying

Aaron Wells

You're right. Dukat is the hero Gotham deserves, but not the one it needs right now.

Aaron Wells

Hey man, I'm right there with you. I do think of runabouts as compact starships though more than shuttles. Shuttles really aren't useful for more than a quick trip somewhere, between two locations with support. A runabout though has actual endurance. Enough room for a large enough crew to stand continuous watches, sleeping area, a transporter pad, food and presumably basic medical equipment... Plus the range and speed for true interstellar travel. I think runabouts are great.

Numinous2019

Absolutely. Don't confuse how great the actor is with the actual character.

Numinous2019

Casey's performance is generally regarded as weaker than expected of him. This was the reaction at the time of broadcast. It's a matter of personal preference, but I always found this slightly deflated the episode (in relative terms).

Miranda

Josh, you almost got Marc Alaimo's name right! It is Marc A-LIE-mo. The middle syllable is "lie" instead of "lay".

Miranda

With each rewatch of this show I become more and more convinced that the Federation should have simply relocated the colonists. It now feels so weird that the writers are asking us to sympathize with colonial settlers. They moved here 20 years ago according to this episode. This isn't their homeland. They are settlers! The ones in Journey's End were also colonial settlers. Edited: Sorry, I know this is a controversial take. But, when you see all the political problems it causes... The Cardassians love the propaganda victories this gives them.

Miranda

I love Dukat in this episode. I think the writers did a fantastic job with him here, letting him voice the Cardassian perspective of what is going on.

Miranda

I'm not sure DS9 really feels like DS9 to me until the back half of Season 3. However, this ending section of Season 2 feels closer than anything we've seen up until this point. I'd agree with you about it starting in "Profit and Loss", though, as that episode has a lot of world building about the Cardassians, Garak, the station, and Quark's history.

Miranda

It also seems like the Cardassian system is what he "grew up with" so to speak. It seems as though he was "found" during the Occupation. So, he has no experience with how the Federation system works.

Boggle

I love the Runabout . And yeah, it is a legit Starship. But it is a minivan. It is a heavy shuttle, an armed scout, a planetary scanner, a pirate hunter, a support craft. It is the sort of ship DS9, or any other Federation outpost, needs. And I mean no insult in that. It is a no frills, modular starship that can serve a lot of roles, and can hold an area until heavier Federation ships can arrive. And when a heavier ship or fleet does arrive, it has enough ability to support it . Honestly, it is one the few Federation designed ships that makes 100% sense.

BN13

Here's the thing that people can never understand unless you actually work in security. The best security IS authoritarian. The more secure you are, the less convenient it is, and the more freedoms and rights you sacrifice in order to maintain that security Now obviously, we all don't want to live like we are in a maximum security prison all the time, so we sacrifice security in favor of personal liberty in order to try and strike some sort of balance there. But the point I'm trying to stress, and I think what pisses Odo off, is no one understands that these too concepts ARE at odds with each other. Which sucks if you're the guy in charge of security getting reprimanded for not running things like a maximum security prison, when your boss literally told you NOT to run things like a maximum security prison because they care about people's rights. If you want to prioritize liberties, then security is getting sacrificed. If you want to prioritize security, than personal liberties are getting sacrificed. It's just like working in a warehouse where your boss expects you to have BOTH perfect quality, and perfect production speed. The two are at odds with one another in the same way. If one goes up, the other goes down. You can't have them both at Max. You have to accept a balance. So i understand Odo here. If your JOB is security cheif, working under the Cardassians is a wet dream because there's no contradictions from your superiors. You can focus on ACTUALLY maximizing security because the Cardassians don't care about personal liberties. But with something like the Federation, the Federation doesn't actually know what it wants. Like a warehouse boss, they want BOTH personal liberties, and maximum security, and these can't coexist. If they want to prioritize personal liberties, fine. That's good. But don't go blaming Odo every time there's a security breach because YOU caused that breach by insisting that security be lowered in favor of personal liberties. This is why people call Odo fascist. He's not a fascist. He's security-minded, and most people don't understand what that is. This, along with his sense of Justice, stems from his overall draw to order. But yes, people don't understand this tradeoff concept. And as a result, all security-minded individuals, including professions like security guards, corrections officers, and cops, often get lumped in as "fascist" as well. These people aren't fascists. They just understand what is actually needed in order to do their job well. Unfortunately, the public does not. If you want these people to do their job well, then most of the time, it isn't going to look pretty. You will never have 100% of both, but that's what people expect and demand out of ignorance.

Narnman

although they're not the type of settlers who go and displace people off their land

misti-step

but do you condemn the maquis?? 😂

John

I've always found it funny that Federation science ships have enough weaponry to lay waste to entire planets. EDIT: But it's a dangerous Galaxy out there. I guess you want overwhelming firepower just in case.

John

I still love that sometimes your auto-subtitles hear "Kardashians" when you say "Cardassians." My favorite is "I think the Kardashians killed that guy."

John

I love just how much moral grey there is in DS9. The characters have their own opinions, and ultimately, what the Captain (or Commander) says goes, but it's not like you see the Maquis phasoring Cardassian children (or the Cardassians phasoring Federation children.) You're allowed to form your own opinion, and you're not necessarily right or wrong whichever side you come down on. This is something that the passing of Gene Roddenberry allowed to happen. As much respect as I have for him, as much of a visionary as he was, he did tend to handcuff people with his utopic vision of the future. What about the people out on the fringes where their utopia isn't there yet? They have the time they need to be farmers or builders, or whatever... they don't have the time to create art or architecture or music, or be super-evolved perfect Starfleet humans. They're busy trying to survive. Then suddenly there's a treaty and you have to decide between giving up the land you've been building on, creating, pouring your blood, sweat, and tears into for most of your adult life, or giving up the protection of the Federation. On the other hand, they CHOSE to stay. They were offered the chance to go. And the Federation won't allow its citizens to commit acts of terror (killing Cardassian civilians) whatever the justification. (And "they started it!" isn't much of a justification, imo.)

Comrade of Chaos

Off topic - did you take down the chat area? I wanted to see if I could still leave a Patron Take on TNG 7x23 but there are no chats available

Cranky Grandma

😄. I always loved Dukat! I wouldn’t trust him, but what a great character.

Joe Pail

The best mistake was in "Duet", when that Bajoran murdered Marritza in the final scene. Kira: "Why?" Bajoran: "He's a Kardashian, that's reason enough!"

John

Yeah, I suppose I should have specified from this particular conversation. Really, any time you see "Cardassian" you can replace it with Kardashian. Chief: "I don't hate you Kardashian... I hate what you made me become." Kira: "The Kardashians murdered millions of Bajorian civilians!" etc.

Cranky Grandma

Good explanation. Coast guard cutters is a good analogy

paultardspambot .

So I had meant to mention this earlier, but there's a blink and you miss kit moment where Sisko is thinking about what to do and he does the "checks his pah" motion. This is a subtle motion but it's such a great detail.

paultardspambot .

Yes. At the same time the Federation IS a fundamental utopian organization... and I'm going to defend the admirals here. Consider you're a senior starfleet admiral. Every day you have to deal with complex political decisions (tons of them) that affect the lives of hundreds of billions if not over a trillion people. There can be admirals who take an interest in something special, but inevitably you can't really see the on the ground picture. This makes them seem clueless to us at times, but we can't really understand the big picture outlook they have to deal with. As Nechayev said, politics is the art of the possible. Let's not roget you're also dealing with a civilian republican government, differnt local governments for every planet, internal political factors, etc. They mentioned (and I caught this for the first time) that Nechaneyev is the Fleet Admiral. This would mean supreme commander of starfleet. She has a lot on her plate. She's also fairly new to the position as (I forget exactly when) there was someone else identified as Fleet Admiral.

paultardspambot .

there also is a difference and its the one people like Roque Commander take. The Cardassians probably would kill children if they thought it was in their interest, whereas the Maquis would not. Things like that matter a lot from the perspective of people in that fight.

paultardspambot .

I would make a philosophical point that actually both sides of the coin are about personal liberties. In the high security system, it's (in theory) about protecting your rights from criminals who would otherwise violate them. "Individual liberties" is the wording used when it's about protecting your rights from the state itself. The two are often viewed as a tradeoff, as you suggested, but I don't think that's actually correct. In a society where you are likely to be a victim of a crime at any time, you have a low level of personal freedom because your basic rights, right to life, to not be physically harmed, right to your own possessions etc. So as "security" increases, your personal freedom increases... until it doesn't because now it's "The state" which is ultimately just a different group of people are the ones restricting it. I think this confusion comes because people tend to view "the state" as an abstraction different from an individual using violence, but at the end of the day it's really just a matter of scale, and ideally some limitation on state power. But take two extremes- one where you are locked in a room and not allowed to leave, one where you practically can't leave because you're very likely to be murdered by some person. In both cases, you have very limited freedom.

paultardspambot .

"Settlers" didn't have the negative connotation then and as Narnman pointed out the reason they do is because they displace or conquer people already living there. That connotation doesn't apply here because no one was living on these places before. You are sort of transferring a general feeling about the word or action to where it shouldn't apply. Like, the reason you have that negative connotation of "settlers" is because in a modern context there really wasn't "unsettled land", whereas these planets had no sapient life.

paultardspambot .

he's not really a higher up though. he's a commander, the same rank as Sisko.

paultardspambot .

yes. I was going to mention this. Dukat's comment is misleading but also speaks perfectly to the Cardassian mindstate. "Our pursuit vessels are years ahead of this design." Because the runabout isn't a pursuit vessel. It could function as one, but it is multi-modular, multipurpose. Yes, a Cardassian ship designed for the sole purpose of chasing down people probably does that better then a runabout but the comparison is apples to oranges. Dukat doesn't make the distinction, sort of saying "we know the federation is just like us" while also using it to claim cardassian superiority.

paultardspambot .

not if you use the proper definition of terrorism instead of equating it with "weaker force". Your a terrorist if you intentionally target civilians in such a way to make a larger civilian populace afraid. If you don't do that, you're not a terrorist. Fighting against a stronger government or conducting assymetric warfare (which is usually necessary against a more powerful adversary) isnt in and of itself terrorism. The word "terrorism" has a special negative connotation because it's something people are supposed to universally disapprove of. Authoritarians and others use that rhetorical trick to try equate anti-state forces with "those who kill civilians to terrorize the population"

paultardspambot .

huh. That makes sense. So the situation Sisko is encountering is about a month after presumably the Indian solution happened and then was adopted for all colonies that didn't want to leave, which seems to be most or nearly all of them

paultardspambot .

I bought into their friendship here which I think was key

paultardspambot .

This makes me think about Brooks/Sisko. I feel like his performance is definitely understated at times, because he's playing a man who spent years on leave grieving his wife who is coming out of his shell. He's also deliberately something of an enigma where he sort of develops into a person from that shell of grief slowly over time. Cracking through that tough skinned exterior is a person who can be almost prophetically passionate at times. That is very much set up in the pilot, and I feel that setup is much more then a throwaway characterization. Like when Josh and Alex sais trhey would have rather had this development come later, I think they missed it... he had to start at this point where he has been on extended leave and was on the verge of quitting with his passion reawakening slowly with an assignment of an unusual nature. I think Brooks does it well, it fits, but he's often a hard character to read.

paultardspambot .

so... while thats very interesting I think that might be the sort of thing that counts as a spolier unfortunately. Keep in mind, "spoiler" here means anything plot related that we wouldn't have gotten other then from watching the episodes up to this point. While the Maquis obviously appear in part 2, we don't want to mention any time something is being "set up for the future." Whether the Maquis remain a continuing problem or the issue is resolved in part 2, Josh and Alex wouldn't know. DS9 is much tougher with this then TNG, which is why I think it's extra important to not talk about how something sets something else up for the future.

Aaron Wells

The Cardassian colonists. Those are actually the two belligerents here: Colonists from different states. Both sides are being surreptitiously armed by well positioned supporters. Somehow the Maquis are winding up with Starfleet photon torpedoes. Somehow the cardassian colonists are winding up with military grade phasers. To say nothing of ships. Clearly, people on both sides with their fingers in logistics are supporters of their respective colonists and are breaking laws.

Michael Metrick

Far cry from Move Along Home, right guys?

Cinedazed

Yeah. I agree with the criticism that some of Casey's line readings are pretty stilted, but he absolutely sells the chemistry between himself and Brooks, the most important part of the characterization.

Numinous2019

That's an excellent analysis of Sisko. There is real passion simmering below that professional 'front' Sisko puts on. Brooks is a very talented actor. It's just frustrating that his screen time (until the Maquis story) was really limited for a series lead actor.

Carsten Tassilo Gräbe

I wasn't even aware of when it aired. For us, it came long after Next Generation ended.

E Parhas

This is the perfect use of both shows. TNG is more optimistic and deals with broader overarching concepts and then moves onto the next story. While DS9 is grittier and can get a more in-depth exploration of what the consequences of the Enterprise's actions in that episode are. TNG is the best of the best explorers reaching out and spreading the good Federation message along the way. DS9 is a window into regular people living, working, surviving, and dealing with consequences in our corner of the galaxy

E Parhas

Fun fact, New Berlin is a city on the Moon

M Palmiere

this is just scratching the surface of whats to come. happy your loving it. the sisko is going to blow your minds.

Comrade Wireless Caller

I love all the Maquis episodes starting with this one. One of the things I always loved the most about DS9 is because how the Federation's ideals are challenged in ways we rarely get to see in some of the other series. And we get a good taste of that here. However, my favorite part of this episode though is the Vulcan. I love the fact that they included her here as part of the Maquis. In this case specifically we get to see how that famous Vulcan logic can actually lead one to many different perspectives on a great many different things. Although here logic leads as well to just one of several possible options to pick from in the situation we are presented with. In addition to that there is also allot of other really great character development here as well. This episode is a foundation stone for ALLOT of what is come later in regards to the Maquis. I think that is a vague enough statement that I hope it doesn't qualify as any kind of "spoiler" of any kind.

Prof Moff

DS9 sex scoreboard catch up version No scores that I saw (remember I am only catching up with the short versions) The sex score board Quark 4 Jadzia 2 Chief 1 Keiko 1 Odo 1 Kira 1 Bashir 1 DETAILS: Almost another one for Quark.