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UNCUT - Crossover (DS9 S2E23) | Star Trek Journey 323 (Patreon)

Published:
2025-11-02 15:00:13
Edited:
2025-11-03 15:01:09
Imported:
2026-09
Tags:
stj

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Tim Nikiforovs

Intendant "You've been a perfect theta for years. What were you thinking?" Smiley "Go fuck yourself, Intendant" Intendant "Now there's an idea" Regarding DS9's location, in the pilot it was orbiting Bajor because that's where the Cardassians kept it, but they moved it to the Denorios Belt to guard the wormhole. The Denorios Belt is roughly equivalent to our asteroid belt, except it's a plasma field. Both divide the inner system from the outer system though. The station is about 160 million kilometers from Bajor, which is roughly the distance from Earth to the Sun, so it's quite far. Regarding "staying still" in space, it's more a question of "in relation to what". You orbit a planet, that orbits a star, which orbits the galactic core, in a galaxy that's moving through the universe. Still if the station is staying near the mouth of the wormhole, the wormhole entrance must be orbiting the bajoran sun as well. If DS9 were remaining stationary even that far out in relation to the bajoran sun, it would be dragged toward it. But TLDR, the wormhole and the station are between the 9th and 10th planets in the Bajor system. This episode was such a blast from the past when it aired. Of all the TOS stories to revisit, I doubt the mirror universe was on many people's bingo cards. You have to respect how casual they were about killing off 2 MU versions of the main cast. I suppose some might say it sucks that mirror Spock's reforms didn't ultimately change things for the better, but does it really? Would this universe be anywhere near as fun to revisit if it basically turned into the trek universe we know already? The mirror universe needs to be messed up, or it just wouldn't be all that interesting. MU Quark and O'Brien honestly seem the closest to their prime universe counterparts, just dealt worse hands. Quark isn't without a moral compass, it's just that he places profit over bravery. Since he really can't profit on Terok Nor, he might as well stick it to the alliance by helping terrans escape. Brooks really got to ham it up as the mirros Sisko, but of course the main draw of the episode is the Intendant. Nana Visitor must have had so much fun with this role. Quite possibly the single most narcissistic character in Trek. Wouldn't give it an S personally, but it is a very fun episode, so it's a solid A tier.

Fedora The Explorar

In the pilot episode they moved the station closer to the wormhole hence it wasnt orbitting Bajor

Darren

Weirdly I think this was my first experience of the mirror universe! Nana Visitor steals this episode - such a fun performance

Darin Wagner

In the pilot episode, they MOVED THE STATION to the mouth of the wormhole in the belt. Apes.

Darin Wagner

The one minor sin this episode commits is that it treats the Mirror Universe like an alternate timeline rather than what it was originally supposed to be: a parallel universe. In a parallel universe, if one version dies, their counterpart on the opposite side also dies. That's not the case here.

Jonathon Tsagris

Without even starting to watch your reaction, you just know that when your reaction video is 1 hour and 22 minutes long the episode is either getting an S or an E

xadg

Is mirror Odo a fascist?

Darin Wagner

You didn't ask me, but I'd say he probably was.

D Jammers

Yes, In both universes

xadg

This is a spoiler.

Steven Johnson

Don't hint. Just don't hint. Just... Just... *sets phaser to vaporize*

Steven Johnson

That was never quite locked down in TOS. It was something the theorized, but there were no facts backing it up, and besides which fact when our people stepped over into the mirror universe things were immediately no longer parallel, they were altered. Spock's world view was shifted by Kirk, several characters who may not have died were killed, others were spared. A whole lot of little butterflies.

Darin Wagner

The concept of a parallel universe and its "rules" were known in the world of science fiction when Mirror, Mirror was written and the episode makes a point to show us that events run parallel. The DS9 episode disregards this.

Seth Walker

Seeing Kira play a feminine queer version of Dukat right down to his twisted I tried to make things better for your poor Terrans/Bajorans mindset is pure gold. Nana Visitor understood the assignment and knocked it out of the park.

Keith S

While watchtcing this, I thought there was a technical glitch. Then I realized what you were doing. Cheesy, but effective.

Harry Broos

A little Mirror Mirror swicheroo between you two? Nice

Sam Langanke

I rewatched the show several times. But now I noticed the first time there is a mistake in Mirror-Quark's conversation with Kira in his bar. He calls her "Major" but should not know what her position and rank in "our" universe is.

Jack Fletcher

I always like to think that there is a Romulan Federation and they’re the good guys since Our team were called the Terran Star Empire

Lt Dan I Scream

tell me if I am wrong but I think when they come out of the wormhole its actually inverted?

Trent Bowles

Rewatching with you guys has given me an appreciation for DS9's different take on the Mirror Universe. The writers could have so easily just had the Terran Empire endure, and had the Federation characters play the part of the villains. In fact, I was always a bit disappointed that wasn't the case when I watched it originally. But then I notice things like the parallels between mirror Kira and Gul Dukat. They both talk so passionately about mercy and their sorrow over having to do what must be done, but even before you know anything about them, you don't trust a word they say. Having Kira, of all people, play that part, is such a wonderful subversion that wouldn't be possible if they had just done the same thing as "Mirror, Mirror." And while we didn't get evil Sisko, pirate Sisko is just as fun. Honoring the original while doing it's own thing is really the best way to do these kinds of episodes, and one thing DS9 excels at.

Kenneth Hynes

Paraphrasing "My favorite scene is when mirror universe Kira was naked in the bathtub" Which one of the them said this? Watch the post discussion to find out.

Ryan

When Star Trek falls down anywhere, it’s usually in the endings. They set up a rich plot with all kinds of different threads and implications, and then they panic in the last five minutes and try to wrap everything up. DS9 is better about this than, say, TNG, but they still succumb to it sometimes. If this had been in the streaming era and they could have run it to a full 60 minutes, I think this episode would have felt more fully realized. Otherwise, I love everything about this. I’d forgotten how sympathetic the DS9 mirror characters were compared with the TOS ones, and that works to their great benefit. Side note: If you haven’t seen the “bust some caps” scene from “The Big Hit,” that’s maybe the all-time peak of brilliant Avery Brooks weirdness.

Narnman

Indeed splendid direction by the fish David Livingston

Narnman

he's a natural authoritarian

Matthew Ganz

First rule of Star Trek --- everything --- even the most forgettable of episodes has the potential to be revisited sometime later. Treat everything as a potential part 1....because you never know......

Duncan McDonald

Literally cheering your reactions through that. It's silly, outrageous and camp. And that's just your episode discussion.

Fedora The Explorar

Honestly really happy for you two that you didnt even talk about Kira being hot while that was 80% of the Patreon Takes. I am here for your guys analysis and dissecting the episode and not surface level observations like these.

Shibster

Does this mean Josh is Evil Alex and vice versa ?

Zack

I assume no one has explained this to you yet, but the station is orbiting Bajor because its the moon.

Zenlike Creature

Always an enjoyable episode, allowing the regular cast to stretch their acting legs :) Great follow up to a TOS storyline. Look forward to hearing what you guys think, it was certainly fun seeing your reactions.

Ryan

The writers walked a fine line in this episode, respecting the TOS characters and their optimistic efforts while still acknowledging that they would never pan out in this screwed-up universe. I'm actually really impressed with how well they threaded that needle.

Terminaldogma01

Wait! They already have beards?! How do I tell the difference between universes?!

Steven Johnson

Yes. I'm aware of that. Which is why i said It stopped being parallel the moment our crew started changing things.

Marko

Do these mirror versions of yourselves like ST6? Perhaps this version of reality has the same writer and director for Lessons, The Bonding and ST6 :)

Philbot

I like DS9’s Shattered Mirrorverse as I call it. Because the other reality has changed and evolved since Spock’s time as it would.. a lot of comics and novels just had the same old “evil Starfleet” that appeared in TOS. I always wonder what Picard and the others are doing in the mirrorverse?

Philbot

She definitely is hot! 😍the intendent is Omnisexual! 😈 But I never let that get in my way of enjoying the character or Nana’s performance.

Philbot

And the children shall lead.. 100 years later..

Philbot

I’ve always enjoyed the “Shattered Mirrorverse” as I call it because it grew and evolved as a “world” would. And they didn’t just do oh no more evil Starfleet..

Scribe31oz

Just in case no one answered this already . Why Terak Nor is not orbitting Bajor - remember in the Pilot of DS9, Kira asked O'Brien to move the station from where it was over Bajor to the mouth of the wormhole so Bajro could stake their claim to it.

Philbot

His pants are Jizz. 💦

Philbot

I like to think that somewhere Picard 👨🏻‍🦲is still striving for Spock’s vision.

tyranusfan

The wormhole is presumably orbiting the Bajoran sun, just like Bajor, all the planets and moons, and the station. The station thus is moving in orbit, keeping relative position next to the wormhole and a few hours from Bajor. (That's why they have to take runabouts to Bajor when they go there.)

Einar Sigurðsson

almost everything they said makes me believe they will adore the rest of DS9

Zack

No, it used to be in orbit of Bajor but they moved it in the pilot

Darin Wagner

I got what you said, I was just pontificating. No offense.

NoMoreWiire

I love the shot at the end of Bashir and Kira on the viewscreen - Kira in a cocktail dress and Bashir covered in shit and looking exhausted. The questions that must have rasied in the regular crew! Haha Also shout out to Odo exploding. Definite highlight.

tyranusfan

Re-read my comment, Zack. :)

Collin Freeman

Agree with you, Josh - it should have been a 2-parter.

Collin Freeman

If you want to see Avery Brooks really act different than Sisko, check out the late 80's series Spenser: For Hire. He plays a recurring supporting character and just nails it (especially if you've read any of Robert B. Parker's novels).

Ross Townsend

You guys pointed out the Kira cares about Freedom speech: lots of us reference that Kira has some of the greatest character growth of anyone in Trek. You hit it here. She tried to save Bashir, "He's led a privileged life but he's a good man." And that's probably the biggest compliment she can pay someone she barely tolerates from the Federation, and I think this episode gives her that better perspective on the Starfleet crew, just adding to the slowly growing teamwork we see between her and Sisko. She's healing from her trauma and growing her experiences out into the best kinds of empathy.

Better Watch Trek

I don't know if old TV screens worked different with PAL but on Netflix and an UHD Monitor you really see clusters of pixels and sometime, if someone is in out of focus in the background as Odo was, it looks more like someone in a fog environment

tyranusfan

I can’t wait for them to get to the episode where Dr Stubbs comes to explore the wormhole

Altariel

Agreed, though it was kind of boring that they seemed to focus on those Patreon takes – there's so much more interesting things to say about the episode.

Altariel

Happy to see that you enjoyed the episode! There's a lot of interesting things to find in that mirror universe. My fav little titbit is that in the regular world, Quark has his Rules of Acquisition, but in the Mirror Universe it's Odo who has his Rules of Obedience. Generally, there were lots of great performances in this episode: Nana Visitor of course gets first place, but Avery Brooks is 2nd for me, and Alexander Siddig 3rd. They are did a wonderful job with this.

Worf and Riker Ride Again

Mirror Odo wasn't a fascist, he just wanted to run an efficient ore processing centre

Worf and Riker Ride Again

Can you imagine if at the end they get back to the prime universe station and they find out Quark and Odo died in a terrible accident?

Keith S

In an interview with Nana Vistor. She said her personality matches more with intedant Kira. Accept for the killing and torturing people part.

The_Truth

It's Mirror Mirror for DS9, I knew they would like this one

Collin Freeman

Yes, but that show was a dud. The character belonged more to the mysterious and unknown that was portrayed in Spenser.

Etman

love that you mirrored the reaction footage when they went into the wormhole lol. nice little editing touch

Marko

Nana also said in an interview that the intendant's suit produced so much squeaking it was distracting and made them laugh. The sounds had to be removed in post. Also while she had to flirt and be seductive that was the last thing on her mind as she was sweating bullets underneath. All of which I believe only elevates her performance here.

paultardspambot .

The reason the station being in orbit of Bajor is weird is that they moved the station to be in front of the wormhole in the series premiere.

paultardspambot .

Remember, Dax found "the celestial temple" and O'brien lowered the mass of the station to move it in front of the wormhole so the Federation could claim it instead of Cardassia. Prior, "Terok Nor" WAS in orbit of Bajor. In the mirror universe, they never discovered the wormhole so they had no reason to move the station.

paultardspambot .

the writer said he wanted to explore if their was a reason the Terran empire turned out the way it did, like there were barbarians at the gates and the empire evolved in response.

paultardspambot .

I loved the sublte looks on Sisko's face when the Intendant calls. Kira picks up on it- it's also maybe ahead of its time in the sense that a man here is a victim of sexual exploitation.

paultardspambot .

Not direct canon but its held in B canon thet Balok and the "first federation" were actually the preservers

paultardspambot .

hes joining Sisko after Sisko says "maybe we can stir things up on this side" Miles wants to fight the alliance.

paultardspambot .

originally, Garak's role was supposed to be Worf but Dorn was busy with the TNG finale and Garak would have been in the place of the klingon.

Steve Syme

That's what he said. In the pilot, it was orbiting Bajor. But they moved it to somewhere in the (I guess) outer part of the solar system where the wormhole is.

Jack Molitor

I saw all the comments explaining why the station is by the wormhole…as to how it stays there, it’s implied that they found a gravitationally advantageous position and constantly use the station’s maneuvering thrusters (which are not fast, but are powerful enough to keep the station in place).

Steve Syme

Okay, I just looked it up. It's in the Denorios Belt which is apparently between the 9th and 10th planets of the Bajoran solar system. So now we know, and knowing is half the battle. And they apparently said this at some point in season 1 so it's not a spoiler.

Summer

Not a fan of the mirror universe they clearly did this as a break before the end of the season. Always glad when others enjoy episodes

CAC7141

Please remember that the station, although close to Bajor, does not orbit it. The station is out where the wormhole is.

TC Green

Whether as a secret duplicate or in the mirror universe, one truth remains; O’Brien Must Suffer.

Athos Count de la Fère

Spock, look what a mess you made. Never should have listened to Kirk. Imagine the last days before the Empire fell to the Klingons and Cardassians.

Josef Nitervol

I think this should have been a 2 parter.

Numinous2019

Agreed. Mirror Universe was a fun one shot concept for TOS. Probably would have been refreshing for the DS9 cast to break out of their established characters. However, it is still a gimmick concept without any clear point.

Some Guy

Quark as a courageous hero of the underground is the most mirror thing ever

Some Guy

The parallel between the Alliance and the Federation also intrigues me

ijp8834

You are wrong. The Station is in the Bajoran solar system orbiting the Bajoran sun near the Wormhole. It does not orbit Bajor, it is several hours away at impulse (As seen in the Circle Arc).

Numinous2019

With normal DS9 already muddying the good & evil waters, is it really the right ST show for the Mirror Universe?

Matchstick Jose

So, do you think Bashir is actually deluded enough to believe he and Miles are best friends, or is he playing that up to try to manipulate Smiley into helping him? Based on his conversation with Kira in the opening scene, maybe he really does believe it.

BN13

I used to not like this episode either. I never watched TOS so I can't speak on that one's behalf. I used to think this episode was just an excuse for the cast to have fun with their characters and it ultimately wasn't about anything. But then on my last watch, I realized that's it's interesting to think that the mirror universe characters ARE our characters, just only if they had lived through different circumstances. Then the episode became a lot more interesting to me. These really are mirrors of our characters. The episode allows us to look at their hidden side that's always still there in some capacity. This also further shows what we saw in The Circle and in an alternate reality in Parallels; that given the right circumstances, the Bajorans are capable of becoming what they hate most, the Cardassians themselves.

jon bolton

Great reaction to a great episode. Even though personally I prefer Mirror Mirror, this still gets S from me.

Kathy A

I love that the MirrorQuark is actually a rebel! So well written and performed by Armin. But, my favorite performance is by Avery Brooks. His MirrorSisko is so complex, and most of his thoughts just play out across his face.

Avaria

Well, it was originally in orbit of Bajor. And, technically, it was in orbit as recently as "Necessary Evil" via flashback. In their defense, stellar cartography (the relative locations of objects in the galaxy) has never been the guys' strongest subject.

David Kirk

In the TOS Gorn episode, that Gorn captain and his ship was destroyed because he lost.

Aaron Wells

Josh, Bajor is a planet in the same solar system as the wormhole. The wormhole isn't near Bajor. The entrance to the Wormhole is millions of miles away, way out in the Denorius Belt, which is probably analogous to their asteroid belt. The station WAS in orbit of Bajor during the occupation, right up to the DS9 pilot episode. During the pilot, O'Brian and Kira MOVED the station to be near the entrance of the wormhole, in order to ensure Bajoran control and sovereignty over it. It was a key plot point of the pilot. The space station sitting at the entrance to the wormhole is the setting of the show! Bajor would appear to be just another distant spec of light out there from that distance. And yes, the relative location of things is "real science". Which of course remains entirely distinct something completely fantastical. Trolling aside, nobody ever claimed everything in Star Trek as "REAL SCIENCE OMG!" Its always been science fiction. Its simply been pointed out that the connection to real science is what defines science fiction as a genre...in extremely stark contrast to something like Lord of the Rings or wresting, which are pure fantasy and require no connection or logical backbone whatsoever.

Banes

What if after her line about Bashir, they flashed back to him doing the meditation breathing, and Kira said "On second thought, Intendant, do what you have to do."

Matchstick Jose

Maybe they just think the wormhole and DS9 are just in a very large orbit of Bajor? Has the show ever explicitly laid out where everything is in relation to each other?

Aaron Wells

I'll never understand how anyone can read a book about Narnia and not understand that it's complete fantasy...and then watch The Martian and not understand the connection to the real world and the realities that drive it's plot. I mean, if there's no difference, why doesn't Matt Damon just carve a magic wand out of a potato plant and get spirited away back to Earth using a summoning circle? Yes, the thermoelectric generator Matt Damon uses to stay warm is ABSOLUTELY real. The magic wand...not so much. I don't know why this is such a difficult contrast to understand.

BN13

I'm glad they went with Garak instead. Especially right after The Wire, this episode gives us a glimpse of what Garak was probably like working for the Obsidian Order.

reactive1

In the pilot, DS9 was moved from orbiting Bajor to the Denorios Belt, which is further out in the Bajoran system, to where the wormhole is.

reactive1

🤔 spoilers…

Trillhouse

Josh: "Going into DS9, I just felt any type of connection to TOS would be non-existent." Oh sweet summer child ... 😂

Aaron Wells

Great episode. You can tell the cast, particularly Nana Visitor, had a lot of fun getting to ham it up and chew the scenery. I confess, I've never had much interest in the mirror universe thing, but looking at it from the guys' character centric perspective, I've got a lot more appreciation for it now. Its always been a great episode, I'm just more interested in the DS9 plot and character arc, and this doesn't really tie into it. Love any connection to prior series though, stitching the overall universe tighter together. The careful consistency, paying respect to the TOS material, is crucial. Continuity and respect for the lore...that is something DS9 EXCELS at.

Yannik M.

Fake it till you make it :D

Ian Westcott

I'll drop a note on your "do TNG fans born in the 70s and 80s like TOS?" While it's true that I was not yet born when TOS aired (I was born in 1975), the early 1980s were a time when a brand new trend was popping up: the syndicated TV show. So I was able to watch TOS in the early 1980s on a local TV station, and being... 9 or 10 years old I didn't really have the concept of "airing live" vs "rerun" because if it was new to me, it was new to me. So I really watched a lot of TOS when I was very young, and even got the great Star Trek comic books (telling new stories with the TOS crew) to read on road trips. So yeah, I watched TOS 12 years after it originally aired, but it still affected me the same way older fans might have felt. TNG for me came around high school. I like 'em both.

Aaron Wells

On Nana Visitor...I'm disappointed that we haven't seen more of her in other shows and movies. I think she's a very natural actor when given material where her warmth and humor can take the forefront. In her role as Kira, the First Officer and former terrorist, she has to be a bit stiff and closed off a lot...but as this show went on I realized that Kira was my favorite First Officer in all of Trek. Kira, as a character with the facets of a violent past, a leadership position, and deep spiritual convictions and personal sense of honor...needs to be played by an actor that can somehow contrast a bit of standoffish stiffness with an air of personal warmth and faith. She wears command as a mask, where Riker tends to the do the reverse. Nana Visitor and Kira are both underrated IMO.

Connor Watson

DS9 is one of the two series I most look forward to your reactions to, the other I won't say yet. Around here is where the series really finds itself, with a series of good episodes. So here is where I have to give you my Over-Under for how many times in the series one or both of you will say 'This is my favourite DS9 episode'; 4 And, Over-Under of times in the series one or both of you will say 'This is (one of) my favourite Star Trek episode; 3

Summer

I just realized, the mirror universe even going back to Kirk is the universe from playing god a few episodes ago, a time loop anomoly happened

Dark Kronis

the station moved to near the entrance of the wormhole, so it not close to the planet

Dark Kronis

if your interested there is a novel called The Sorrows of Empire, that show Spock rise to power in the Terran empire and how he destroyed it from within

Richard Finch

Yeah, that’s probably my favorite little acting moment from Avery Brooks, and I think Josh and Alex missed it.

Nolan

Didn't Kirk's plea for mercy end up sparing that Gorn?

Nolan

The moon and the ISS orbits the Earth. Jupiter does not orbit Earth. It orbits the Sun. Earth orbit's the Sun. Originally DS9 orbited Bajor, like a moon or the ISS, but the Wormhole is further out in the system. Now DS9 is parked next to the wornmhole. The wormhole and the station both orbit the Bajoran sun, but not the planet Bajor itself.

kevin coleman

Misinformation, the alien sees Kirk is pure of heart and saves the lad 👍🦎

Nolan

I mean, there's no friction in space to act as a force to move the station... it likely has enough mass to nit be affected by docking ships

Nolan

No, I think that would be dumb and really limiting wrt world-building. Not everything has to be connected. Plus Trelane exhibited limitations that Q don't have. He was not omnipotent, he could only view Earth through a means that showed him the past and the majority of his power came from a machine behind a mirror.

Paul

S-tier in the fun category, not the "melt my mind from grief or philosophical brilliance". This was even more enjoyable than I remember it being. I did remember that fake Odo gets blown up, but that effect made me immediately recall Conspiracy bug zapping. Poor 50 shades Odo.

Trekkie74205

The true successor to TOS emerges. DS9 isn't afraid to go places TNG wouldn't dare, and to be associated with TOS.

ShazD

"Why would she think it's weird they're orbiting Bajor?" Bruh wut 💀 💀 💀

ShazD

That was wild lmao

Aaron Wells

I was a TNG kid. I have never been able to form as much of a connection with TOS. I liked the TOS movies a lot more than the show. TOS falls into the hokey cheesy campy sci-fi category. Along with movies about giant spiders and old Godzilla movies and Flash Gordon and Lost in Space and stuff like that. I went back and dutifully watched all of TOS, there were half a dozen episodes I consider to be actually pretty darn good. City on the Edge of Forever and Balance of Terror are the only times I feel TOS managed to get up to even the average level of TNG. The very worst TNG episodes are the ones that to me feel like they would be a typical TOS episode. I really liked The Kirk Spock Bones trio... But to me they will never be default Star Trek characters. That will always be Picard Riker Data. Sisko Kira Dax. And so on. Really liked TMP, Wrath of Khan, and the accursed Undiscovered Country. So much of this is just what we are exposed to as kids when we are maximum formative. To a heck of a lot of people out there, Anakin and Obi-Wan are the central characters of Star Wars... They think of Luke and Han and Leia as cheesy Old Boomer nonsense. 😆

Aaron Wells

I know right! I was like what? You guys have watched two seasons of opening credits literally seeing the wormhole opening and closing right there in the frame with the Station in the foreground! Like 50 times so far, and countless others within the show itself. This can't be happening next to Bajor. Bajor is a planet. It's moving. It's whistling along at thousands of miles an hour around its sun. The Earth orbits the Sun at like 67,000 mph... The entrance to the wormhole is a fixed position. Oops, thats just more of that dreaded 'real science" so we should probably just ignore it 😆

Aaron Wells

It's a super cool effect, the exploding Odo. It's like they made a life-size Odo casting out of ballistic gel and just blew it the hell up lol

Aaron Wells

Yes. The show states that the entrance to the wormhole is in the denorius belt. Not sure exactly what the composition of that is, but it's probably analogous to our asteroid belt. A belt in the context of a solar system would be a circular structure around a star, probably on the plane of the ecliptic.

Aaron Wells

See I disagree with this point. I don't think the wormhole moves at all relative to the bajoran sun. I think it's a fixed position within the system. It's not like the entrance has mass. It doesn't need to actually orbit. As far as I can tell from the show, the exit isn't in motion either, it's just a fixed position in space. I don't think it's inside of a system at all.

Aaron Wells

Question for the group: The position of the wormhole entrance. Do we think it's a fixed point in space? Or, as a location in something the show has stated as the Denorius Belt, which is presumably a belt of something around the bajoran star, analogous to our asteroid belt, does the entrance actually orbit the star? What about the exit? As far as I can tell from the show, the exit just seems to be a fixed point in space. Would the entrance be orbiting a star while the exit is a fixed point?

FPG

To explain the station not orbiting Bajour, in one of the first episodes of season 1, when they found the wormhole, they fired up the stations engines and pushed it out of Bajors orbit to place it at the mouth of the wormhole, some way from Bajor.

Scarpad’s Domain

nah I am s really only one True Trek Series guy. An thats tos and then there are the sequel series of varying degrees of success. But there's only one Trek the original

Scarpad’s Domain

A Great episode that really builds on Mirror Mirror its an S for me

Scarpad’s Domain

I believe she does alot of theater after Trek cause that's where she was before it

Scarpad’s Domain

i liked that the writers did'nt make everyone opposites, just because the terrans in this universe were evil , not all other races had to be polar opposites

Greg Quinn

Station only orbited Bajor early on. They moved the station to be closer to the wormhole to stake a claim to it when the wormhole was discovered (it was a big chunk of a season one early episode).

Aaron Wells

There's a novel called a stitch in time, actually written by Robinson. Basically the biography of Garek before the events of DS9. A worthwhile read.

EmptyDice

It would have to be in orbit around the Bajoran star because there is no such thing as a fixed point in space. Everything is relative, if it was fixed in relation to the galaxy, it would take some months to become out if sync with the Bajoran system, if it's relative to the rest of the universe, it would shoot out of the galaxy in seconds given how fast the galaxy moves in relation to others. It could be in a stationary orbit, like a LaGrange point, which would make it appear like it is fixed in relation to the other orbiting planets, just like where the James Web Space Telescope is situated in our solar system.

Boggle

They can stay in one spot because they have thrusters that counter drift. We do the same thing with satellites in orbit around earth

Aaron Wells

I don't mean fixed relative to the universe though, I mean fixed relative to the star. Since it has no mass, why can't it just sit there? If it was artificially constructed because the Wormhole Aliens have some sort of relationship with Bajor, surely they would leave the entrance in a particular place for the sake of locating it... Same would apply to the other end... I mean yeah in absolute terms there's obviously no fixed point in space because space is expanding. The Galaxy is moving, etc. But for the purposes of something that is explicitly connected to a particular system? In order for the entrance to be "orbiting" It would need to be a continuous simulation of an orbit, since theres no mass involved. Basically the Wormhole Aliens would be artificially moving it around in a big circle...

Aaron Wells

You're the vibrator. You tell us. :)

EmptyDice

They do sometimes have the "I don't understand it, so it's stupid" attitude. It doesn't help that they don't pay attention to any scientific explanation, thinking that it's technobabble. The show said multiple times during the first and second season that it takes hours to go from the station to Bajor, but like most thing that has a slight scientific basis to, it goes right above their head. We've never once seen Bajor next to the station during the opening or during the show, but it seems the only thing they remember about the opening is how much they despise the music.

Evan Guthrie

I really wanna watch this but paramount plus is being ass

Steven McDowell

Very well said, and very similar to my own thoughts and experiences. I’ll always fondly appreciate what TOS had to do to allow for the other series to exist, but my 10, 11, 12-year old brain imprinted upon TNG and DS9 in the 90s.

EmptyDice

Did we establish that the wormhole has no mass? I honestly don't know, but it would be strange since everything has relativistic mass, especially something that has energy (it does emit light). But then again, since the "Prophets" don't experience time linearly, maybe so does the wormhole, which would explain what happened in this episode.

Naglfarius

Oh Vibrator of the Tasha, what is your wisdom?

Aaron Wells

Babylon 5 also got me right in the lizard brain. I totally get it though though if someone from modern times were to look at Babylon 5 and be completely aghast 😆

paultardspambot .

in my head canon the prophets were responsible for this "crossover"

paultardspambot .

I would say as much as they respect trek for treating the auidience with respect, DS9 requires an extra level of attention which is probably why it didnt do great on its initial run but has become a cult classic

paultardspambot .

hmm? explain that. You think the proto universe WAS the mirror universe? I'm not sure that makes much sense

paultardspambot .

by the way, Kira IS how you do a strong female character as opposed to certain others.

paultardspambot .

you might try it with the remastered effecyts. Its much more modern"

paultardspambot .

i think they are genuinely becoming friends at this point

paultardspambot .

yeah, as DS9 goes on the relative location of things starts to matter more. You don't NEED to know, butit helps with understanding things.

paultardspambot .

there are many maps but there are spoilers in the maps

Christopher Hayes

TNG has had callbacks and tributes to TOS many times.

paultardspambot .

I kind of feel bad she and Siddig got divorced. They were married for a very long time.

paultardspambot .

there was a novel with the TNG mirror crew that contradicts this episode but was pretty good. In "b canon" there was a contingent of terrans who had a base far away from the alliance comanded by Picard who were trying to find Kirk who was in a stasis unit to rebuild the empire

paultardspambot .

its not like sexy evil Kira was not an intentional part of the episode. They went out of the way to make her like female Dukat.

paultardspambot .

But in DS9, they oftrn drop seeds that they might pick up later. This was part of the writing style, to leave some things open ended in case they wanted to revist them later.

paultardspambot .

he might have heard. The Intendant has been gossiping about her alot

paultardspambot .

not really. There are according to MWI infinite parallel universes and they can diverge at any point in any way

Ryan

Yeah, they definitely do. I meant to say that sometimes they rush to tie off endings that I wish they'd leave open because -- like you said -- the show format lets them return later.

Sunny

It just keeps happening - I think I didn’t like an episode and then I rewatch here and…huh. This is…entertaining now?

Vexx

This was a great episode and im glad you guys enjoyed it. I love watching you watch this series :D

Cranky Grandma

Interesting to see Kira essentially be Dukat. As far as TOS and DS9…the writers were the kids watching TOSand now they’re writing DS9

Ian Westcott

Oh man, I was a Star Trek boy, and I really didn't like Babylon 5. :-D But I think I never gave it a chance -- the pilot wasn't great, and it featured a terrible cast (Andreas Katsulas is fantastic, but most of the main cast were very poor actors). Whenever I checked it out later, I think I ended up just randomly seeing some of series' worst, most preachy episodes.

Tasha Yar's Positronic Vibrator

For whatever reason DS9 on Paramount plus loses sync for me. Which is weird, because TNG doesn't. So I watch DS9 on Netflix instead.

PianoDean

I see what you did there.....LOL

Some Guy

It's funny how the other species came together in an alliance rather than our Federation.

Summer

You are right, it was just interesting because they dumped that thing in the wormhole then got into and out of this one in it, made me think

Numinous2019

It always boils down to personal preferences. I just don't see the point to this episode beyond variation in the episode run.

Aaron Wells

I think the guys have mentioned that eventually Babylon 5 is on the menu around here. The first season, in fine tradition, is a bit rough. It gets seriously epic and space opera-y though in later seasons. I think it's worth a second chance. It's got its own vibe but it grows on you. Frankly, I think it's got better aliens than Star Trek. Again, it's something I completely understand if people can't get into. Interesting thing about B5 is that it was basically written as a television novel. The entire arc was written down before they shot a single scene.

Rangsk

Mass is not required to be affected by gravity. See light for example. I think the wormhole exit does orbit the star. But, what about the other side of the wormhole? As far as I can tell, it's not even near a star. Maybe that's why it was never found on the other side. It probably just rotates around the center of the galaxy.

llama

"fixed position within the system" means it would somehow be moving in perfect tandem with the bajoran star as the bajoran system moves through the galaxy and I don't see why that's favoured over the wormhole also just being in some sort of orbit.

Adin

Same vibe as them calling other starships Enterprises😭

Darin Wagner

If it diverges at any point, it's not a parallel universe. Parallel universes, as opposed to alternate time lines, have always existed. That's how they differ. The two terms are often used interchangeably these days because the people doing so don't know there's a significant difference, narratively speaking.

ShazD

In what way is she queer?

ShazD

Alex actually has really good intuition for this stuff

Numinous2019

I do care about the Mirror O'Brien. I just feel like this is a 'funhouse' type story. We are whisked through a series of 'What If's'. There isn't an over-riding plot beyond that. I agree with Alex that it needed to end on a darker note.

Aaron Wells

Mass is exactly what causes light to be affected by gravity... Light bends around an extremely massive thing...like a star. That's a curvature of space-time effect. As for the Wormhole, they only accidentally stumbled into the entrance... Even with all their sci-fi instruments, they couldn't really tell it was there. As I understand it, the wormhole exists outside of normal space and time. I'm assuming anything made of actual matter would have been detectable at some point in all those centuries... That's why I posed the question... Why would something that apparently can't even be detected because it has zero actual existence in real space and time need to orbit a star as if it had a bunch of mass?

John

I'm sure someone has mentioned it by now, but they moved the station to the wormhole in the first episode. It's still in the Bajoran system, but it's about six hours away by impulse, and not in orbit of Bajor any longer.

Marko

Denorius Belt is a plasma field that divides inner and outer part of the Bajoran system. That puts the wormhole inside the system. DS9 is always positioned next to it. But since the station does have mass, it orbits the Bajoran sun. DS9's orbit is also shown here https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/memoryalpha/images/2/2f/Bajoran_system.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20130219174527&path-prefix=en That implies the wormhole also orbits the star. If it were a fixed point in the system that does not move it would be counterintuitive. Granted, we never encountered a real wormhole so we can't say with absolute certainty. But for the purposes of the show it is safe to assume it is governed by laws of motion and general relativity.

Aramis Calcutt

Well written episode and a nice call back. Don’t make this a habit. Leave the Mirror concept behind us.

Aaron Wells

Fair enough. I think this also implies that if the Wormhole entrance orbits (even though its massless, theoretically) at exactly the right speed and position to also exactly match the orbit of the station... That would imply that the Prophets maintain it on that artificial orbit because they knew eventually the station would be there? Just sitting on precisely the correct orbit for the Station to be parked right next door? Otherwise, it's a stupendously unlikely coincidence. I always figured that the station wouldn't really have any trouble station keeping with 24th century tech, but that's never explicitly explained in the show.

Marko

I don't think that is the case (I may have misunderstood you though). I don't think they kept the wormhole in the orbit to match the station in the future. The wormhole was created and put inside the system. From there on it followed the orbit around the sun like any other object inside the system. The station synced up with it to be always near the entrance and it started following an orbit around the sun as well. I don't think the Prophets maintain the wormhole in orbit, it follows the law of motion naturally.

Aaron Wells

That's just it though. The laws of motion don't apply to something that doesn't have mass. Things orbit a star at a given speed because they need to balance gravity against the inertial force in the opposite direction. All of this only applies to things with mass. The farther out from the star, the slower the object needs to move to maintain its orbit. So a stable orbit for something of a given mass, like the station, would probably be at a particular distance at a particular speed. Otherwise you have to use a bunch of energy on station keeping. I mean it logically makes sense for the station to be orbiting... But it doesn't make sense for the Wormhole entrance to be orbiting unless it's orbiting specifically to facilitate something else that actually needs to orbit... That's what I've been trying to get at here. I don't think I've been explaining it well.

Colby

The wormhole was made by the Prophets, and the Prophets keep it. They're specifically interested in Bajor, so of course the wormhole tracks with Bajor.

Aaron Wells

With the Bajoran star, sure. But it's never depicted as being anywhere near the planet.

Colby

Given his view of his relationship with other characters, I'm not sure how this is even a question. Dude is king self-delusional.

Colby

We were denied Cardassian beards!

Marko

Ah okay if it doesn't have mass then it is more theoretical. It wouldn't be an object in space but part of spacetime geometry so it would move with spacetime itself. But in a sense I guess it wouldn't orbit like other physical objects. Then perhaps there is an argument that the Prophets are moving it. But if it did have mass, even a very small one, it would orbit. I don't know if we're ever told if the wormhole has or doesn't have any mass. So this is all highly speculative. But interesting nonetheless.

Michael Metrick

TNG needed to establish it's own legacy independent of TOS.

Evan Guthrie

Since I'm sure nobody has mentioned it yet, the wormhole was moved from Bajor and it now orbits your mom.

Some Guy

Yo mamma so fat the Prophets think she exists here

Some Guy

I think it was two

Some Guy

TNG brings me back to being seven years old. It'll always be unique for me

Some Guy

At least since it's a space station, they don't have to worry about the warp 5 limit.

JordanK1991

I like this one quite a bit as well. Great reaction, guys!

Miranda

TNG was the show airing when I was a teenager. I did check out TOS when it was on Netflix. I quite liked many of the episodes. There were others I didn't like at all. Overall , I found it better than I expected. I prefer TNG to TOS, but I like both series. DS9, however, is my favorite Trek series.

Trent Bowles

I get what you're referring to, but I was very conscious to only reflect Alex and Josh's already expressed views on these characters at this point in time.

ijp8834

Also the Station has mass, so unless they spend a ton of energy keeping the station in one place, it has to be in an orbit. Also everything else in the Denorius Belt would be in orbit, so the Station would be dodging everything flying through it constantly.

paultardspambot .

She's clearly sexually attracted to herself who is female which suggests she is bi though they don't make it explicit in this episode that shes bi generally or just for herself which would fit in with this narcissistic version of her. Thats one way in which Intendant Kira is very different from our Kira, our Kira seems a bit conservative in that way as compared to say Dax whereas this Kira is a total hedonist who seems to get off on the power she has over others.

paultardspambot .

You could also say she's acting in a way that was seen back then as sort of a... back then there was this sort of role some queer people adopted where it was like an intenionally "in your face" thing with sexuality thats not really as big anymore. Someone who is more knowleadgeable about LGBT history could probably explain this better. Sort of like how Andrew Robinson did his performance based on a similar idea that initially maybe Garak was queet and interested in Bashir. It's a bit nuanced, it's like... an outsider stereotype of queer people that is hypersexualized and then embraced by people as sort of a pride thing. I'm probably not explaining it well, but it's the sort of intentionally exagerrated way the Intendant acts that was a known thing at the time and still is. A bit like the guy from Monty Python who played the exagerrated gay charaacter

paultardspambot .

yes. Its comparable to how Batman got so much better, it went from being a thing written by adults for kids to being written by people who were fans as kids but cared about the characters and made them more interesting from an adult perspective. Like the showrunner for the last season of Picard who knocked it out of the part and knew the lore so wel he manages to retcon things in a way that makes it as though they were written with those ideas being there from the beginning instead of tied together after the fact (while I hate Voyager I'm a big Picard defender)

paultardspambot .

right, it stays in the bajoran system thus it's in it's gravity well. Though there are a lot of other questioonable things about the physics like why they don't get spaghetiffied when they reach the event horizon to which we have to say "prophets did it"

Aaron Wells

Is there an event horizon? I mean it's not a black hole. There's no real gravity involved. I don't think this wormhole is the same sort of concept as an Einstein-Rosen bridge...

Derek Orr

Oh boy….all that speculation at TOS at the end….must bite tongue

Derek Orr

It is weird how more and more regular people celebrate or champion not knowing things rather than learning things

E Parhas

Did he say they've seen Star Trek Continues? Did they react to that?

Back Flip Bet

And now the kids that watched tng and ds9 write the worst trek lol jk jk

Back Flip Bet

Well other than all the tos characters that visit the enterprise,😭😂

Back Flip Bet

I mean it was a genocidal empire....

Back Flip Bet

The Spock ruined everything is a clever small detail.

Back Flip Bet

A recent episode they watched had flash backs to the cardassian occupation years. With the station in orbit of Bajor, maybe this tricked their brain.

Back Flip Bet

If you count episodes of tng were the ship is just floating in space not going anywhere and all the action happens on board as "station" episodes and ds9 episodes were they go to new planets as exploring. It's almost close in number count!

Back Flip Bet

I know its not smart to warp inside a solar system but no way I'm sitting in that shuttle for 6 hours. I'm doing a warp 1 jump!

Back Flip Bet

She has pips on her uniform of major.

Trekkie74205

Right, as Josh said though, there is a difference in a character appearing in a TNG plot and actually continuing a TOS story. There were always battles with the producers on what TNG could do. In the episode SAREK for example Picard says, "at his son's wedding". This was because the writers were told they could only use the word 'Spock" once in the episode. They got more lenient later on, but it was always a negotiation.

Mr Indiscret

If you guys want to see a Federation where things suck for all of the citizens , you should try watching Blake's 7 a British sci-fi tv show made just before STAR WARS debuted in the late 1970's where the earth empire is a tyranny and only bad happens, the creator was inspired by Trek but did his own version of events in the negative, it has plenty of surprise's

Külwaith

Shaka, when the walls fell.

Prof Moff

DS9 sex scoreboard catch up version Kira and Sisko getting down and dirty, no. But Mirror Kira and Mirror Sisko shaggin’ like they are in another universe. The sex score board Quark 4 Jadzia 2 Chief 1 Keiko 1 Odo 1 Kira 1 Bashir 1 GUEST: Mirror Kira +1 new Mirror Sisko +1 new DETAILS: Mirror Kira and Mirror Sisko bangin away,