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UNCUT - The Jem'Hadar (DS9 S2E26) | Star Trek Journey 328 (Patreon)

Published:
2025-11-16 15:00:16
Edited:
2025-11-17 14:55:57
Imported:
2026-09
Tags:
stj

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River Acheron

So psyched for this one! I get to watch along in two hours. ^_^ I will say right now that this is S-Tier stuff! I have always considered this THE beginning of Deep Space 9. And the show only gets better from here. :)

Chris M

Excited to watch this with you guys, but also apprehensive. If you hate this DS9 might be lost to you. Its not a perfect episode, but its absolutely critical to everything.

BeN

You have no idea what's begun here.

Ramen Nudels

Oh damn had a feeling this would happen lol.

Better Watch Trek

I like the structure of this episode. It starts small and slow, and ends with the destruction of a galaxy class ship. It would have been great stuff for a movie with 120 minutes runtime, but considering that its only a 90s show, its well executed.

THE Fans

Did someone say "ideas"? At the end of each series, of course you're doing a top episodes for that series... but it's a ton of fun to mix em up... Between TOS AND TNG, do a top 25 of those together. Then when DS9 ends, a top 50, adding it to the mix. Then Voyager, top 75. Add ENTERPRISE when it ends, for a top 100 episodes. When ENTERPRISE ended, fans did a top 100 on TREKWEB. I'm sure I still have my list saved somewhere on my backup hard drive that held 80 megabytes. Lol

Fedora The Explorar

Why would two Galaxy class ships look any different? Its just the same two models of the ship why would it not be the same exact model as the Enterprise? Works perfectly for the story. You think Picard added stickers to the hull of the Enterprise to customise it?

Sam Langanke

With this - not always understandable - clueless rant from Alex I highly recommend not to read the YT comments. You will be spoiled to death.

Sir, This is A Quark's.

Yes, this will happen. You fellas just cannot read any comments for DS9 on YT from now on. Sorry. 🖖

Darren

It’s not like we didn’t see several Constitution class starships during TOS

Steven Johnson

I still hold the belief that the captain of the Odyssey was SUPPOSED to be Jellico at one point.

Sam Langanke

With this reaction and a month pause I really hope you will not see that many deregistrations. But I promise you there will be some. You can dislike what you want but stop shitting on what people love and you have no clue (yet) why.

Ryan

Re-watching this now, it is a blunt-force way to introduce the new bad guys. It hit harder in the '90s in the context of everything else. TNG had been the first new live-action Star Trek series in almost 20 years, and now they were already trying to do that again, so what was the point going to be? Destroying the Odyssey a.k.a. the Enterprise stand-in was the meta way to say, "We're taking what you thought you'd learned about 1990s Star Trek and moving it in a totally different direction." Some people weren't okay with that, and some people still aren't, honestly. DS9 ended up being my favorite series, but I can see why some people prefer the Shakespeare plays and chamber-music concerts on the Enterprise-D. There isn't much of that on DS9, but they do use the darker tone to introduce some really gritty allegories -- including some that hit harder today than they did when they originally aired. They anticipated some real-world problems we were going to have. All this is to say that, yeah, this episode might not feel like much when you first come to it, but after two seasons of DS9 being basically a TNG knockoff, this is where it starts to become its own thing. You might like that thing or not, but from here on it becomes clear why the showrunners felt they needed a new series.

Darren

Skeletor!! Ive always liked the episode tho not perfect I like that it takes a seemingly lowkey story before it changes direction part way. It combines big stakes drama with some nice character stuff.

Darin Wagner

For Star Trek hawks like myself, this is where the show REALLY begins. When we watched this in our college dorms back in the day, the symbolism of a Galaxy-class starship being kamikazi-ed at the end of the episode wasn't lost on us. This show was now the show that told us what was going on in the Federation and the Alpha Quadrant. It was, in a very real sense, the new home of the franchise.

Fedora The Explorar

Years of being in the Trek fandom I've never heard a single person dislike the Odyssey being blown up and how it symbolised the Enterprise but hey that's why I keep subscribed to you guys and I itch to hear your opinions a day early, you guys bring something new

paultardspambot .

I thinkl encounter at farpoint was a misunderstanding./ Like "they had the last people they did busin4ss with for lunch" confusing a metaphor for somethjing literal

THE LORE!!!

C? Forreal? I've noticed that you guys often ask for the shows to "Show, don't tell." I feel like this was the most effective showing and not so much telling (and most of what we're told comes from unreliable OP, Eris). And while Josh said he liked it, Alex's part of the discussion straight up baffled me. On the bright side, at least you guys will get plenty of YouTube engagement out of this, I can guarantee that.

Jonathon Tsagris

I think you're confusing an episode being load bearing from the point of view of the broader plot, with it being a great episode in its own right. I think C was harsh, but it's a high B at best.

Jonathon Tsagris

Question: Would this have been better as a 2 parter, with an expanded camping hijinks section leading up to the Jem'Hadar kidnapping Sisko et al as a part one cliffhanger, followed by a more fleshed out escape/battle/Figuring out that Eris (sp?) was a plant?

Narnman

About the re-use of the ship remember the Enterprise D is in a class of ships (Galaxy Class) as in they have several of the exact same looking. It's one of the federation's most recent and versatile ships which can be used for exploration and also packs a punch if needed to be used in battle. I think in the TOS almost all the federation ships we ever saw were the same Constitution class at least we do get much more variations in ships from TNG onwards Edit - i see ya guys addressed that towards the end

Steven Linden

This counts as spoilers around here.

Narnman

if true that sounds like a spoiler?

Chris M

How? it doesn’t tell anything at all about the coming plot. Its been said on here a billion times that this episode is the start of things.

Carsten Tassilo Gräbe

The Galaxy class is the largest vessel the Federation currently possesses. And I believe it was mentioned that three such ships were operating in the area. It showed that the Federation's strong shields/force fields were ineffective against this enemy. In that respect, it was okay. But I really don't think it's a good episode. If the spy had been unmasked in a later episode, I think it would have helped somewhat. I also think it would have worked better if the Dominion information had been spread over two episodes.

Chris M

I think its because we know what’s coming. The symbolism of the Galaxy class getting destroyed is pretty heavy given what happens in the wider Trek universe soon, and the whole Dominion thing also being so important.

Brendon Waldron

I think people should stop saying what they will or will not like before they get there considering how often they end up feeling exactly the opposite...

Darren

Oh the YouTube comments are gonna be fun with this one 😅 It is hard to comment without spoilers but it’s one of the few times I’m a bit bemused by the discussion especially as most of the reasons why TA disliked it is why most seem to love it. Also first time I’ve ever seen complaints about the Odyssey being a Galaxy Class as it makes so much sense from a plot point of view 🤣

D Jammers

Season 4 is the REAL start of the show.

Steven Linden

I'm amused by how much Alex wants the season finale to just be a silly camping trip with no other plot. This isn't a criticism of you guys; this genuinely tickles me.

Steven Linden

Yeah, not a fan of telling them stuff like this.

Chris M

They love character driven plots, not Sci Fi. DS9 certainly gets there with both, but I had a feel this would happen because the second half of this episode was just pure sci fi plot. No one we care about is hurt, there are no cliff hanger stakes.

Zenlike Creature

Many of the main players and pieces are now in place. Now you get to look forward to how they move on the board going forward.

Narnman

what do you mean ''how so you'' just outlined the plot or theme of the next few episodes lol

Chris M

Based on what i said tell me what happens then..

Narnman

yeah but their teeth look sharp, perfect for munching on flesh which is amusing

Darren

The poor overlooked Yamato.

Narnman

so wait you want us to reveal even more spoilers for them. i dont think you really though this through

Darren

Oh same it’s why I don’t rate this as an S. it’s definitely an A for me tho but the show gets the balance right better as it goes along.

Jeff McCoy

You told what the next two episodes are going to be about, which is something they've asked a multitude of times not to do. Just because you don't lay out exactly what's going to happen in the episodes doesn't mean you didn't spoil the theme.

paultardspambot .

The point of it being a galaxy class ship is that those are starfleet's top of the line ships, and the jem'hadar took it out with no problem. Even without the suicide run, they were cooked. It's supposed to show that the federation's best ship was no match for a trio of Jem'hadar fighters.

Chris M

Um..no? You clearly missed the point. My point is my comment has zero spoilers.

Narnman

good point i recall there wasnt the same dislike that they re-used the same ship in that episode but would have to check. i'm sure they said it felt impactful. I guess Alex is annoyed because he felt a bit tricked into thinking this could be the Enteprise here when he first saw it

jon bolton

Alex is right, Ensign Gates is really the leading Founder of the Dominion. How did he guess?😂😂😂

paultardspambot .

I'm guessing this is not going to be one of your more popular takes.

Chris M

I think you are going over the top here. They even say in their analysis that they expect it to be followed up at the start of season 3.

Narnman

"spoiled revealed in quote" They dont know this therefore its a spoiler. why does this still have to be explained

Nick Marten

The only federation starship class seen in TOS is the Constitution class. Any other mash ups you’ve seen were from secondary sources not actually seen in TOS. The first non-constitution class federation starship we see in Star Trek is the Reliant in Wrath of Kahn. Then we get two more in Search for Spoke (Excelsior and Oberth). Galaxy class is only the 5th class of federation star ship shown in cannon. It’s why most of the support ships in TNG are Excelsiors and Mirandas.

Steven Linden

I do totally agree that blowing up another Galaxy-class starship does not have anywhere near the impact that the writers seemed to think it would. Trying to have their cake and eat it too. We did see one other Galaxy-class ship in TNG, the Yamato in "Where Silence Has Lease" - although that was Nagilum's illusion - and in "Contagion", where it gets destroyed, and it did indeed look exactly like the Enterprise.

Chris M

It been said a million times already. However I will delete just to get you to shut up.

Jeff McCoy

I won't be watching the review until I get home, but everyone needs to remember that we are all looking at this episode knowing what comes after it, so we're going to be a bit biased when we talk about it. Yeah, it sucks that it appears from the comments that they may not have enjoyed it as much as I do, but that's the spice of life!! Also, I see there might be some confusion with the Odyssey being a Galaxy Class ship like the Enterprise. Just think of each class of ship as a 747 plane. They all are going to look pretty much exactly alike.

jon bolton

I think it would have had more of an impact on Josh and Alex if they had got Ronny Cox back because they know the guy and he's Captained the Enterprise. Also Jellico was definitely arrogant just as Dax said this Captain was lol

D Jammers

Yeah man, I was joking

Cory Paton

I am usually all for your contrarian takes and they are well argued. This however is a pretty frustrating discussion considering the critiques are based on you just forgetting things you have seen in the past or using some common sense. i.e. ships of the same class look the same. I don't think this is the most amazing episode but it has a great quiet/comedy episode setup and then the tone totally shifts to a more serious setup for things to come and I enjoy when writers do that kind of thing.

startrekiborg

This couldn't be a simple, fun episode. It's the season finale. They wouldn't do that.

Seth Walker

An identical galaxy class vessel has been destroyed before in the TNG season 2 episode Contagion. In that episode they thought there might be a design flaw in Galaxy class ships but it was a alien computer virus that took it out. All that said this is a good episode that lays more framework and I believe you guys will come to appreciate it more with time. Can't wait for January.

xadg

I would have like to see some setup for the Odyssey. Name drop it along with the Enterprise in the previous episode, and establish its presence in the region and introduce the captain on some other episode near the end of this season. It would help it feel like less of an ass-pull whilst developing the world around DS9.

Narnman

about 70 comments already when usually at this stage is about half that lol

Chris M

They already know, they discussed it in the video you should be watching.

paultardspambot .

see its funny, all the stuff youre talking about with characters moments tells me you should have loved buffy but yu hated it

Collin Freeman

I might be going out on a limb here, but I think by the end of DS9. Alex and Josh will not find the overall series as enjoyable as most the fans in the TA. For me personally, this episode is at least a B+, but I am not as surprised at Josh and Alex's reactions as I would have been a couple of years ago. And this was where I pretty much stopped watching DS9 in its original run with the exception of a few scattered episodes here and there. So it's mostly all new to me from here on out.

paultardspambot .

it's really Dr Stubbs who wants revenge on the federation for messing up his experiment, teamed up with the aliens from imaginary friend

KR Thompson

Always absolutely baffling to me how up in arms people get over “you have no idea how important this episode is” when… yes? They haven’t watched the show yet? You don’t need to tell them how important it is. They’ll get there and form their own opinions.

paultardspambot .

8 In "The Way to Eden", we see the Class J vessel Aurora (NC-17740). It's never explicitly referred to as a Federation vessel but its theft falls under Starfleet jurisdiction and it has a Federation-style registry number in the Remastered episode. It also follows the normal Federation vessel "design language" - grey with two warp nacelles extended on pylons. In the remastered version of TOS, background "blob of light" ships were given clear definition, so.... it depends on your definition. https://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/articles/tos_ships.htm

Chris M

They know this episode is important to the future show, its been mentioned several times. That's all I said.

Steven Johnson

Just going to point this out. Because it's not science shit. If you buy a Honda of a certain model, you know that the model in question is likely one of thousands. They might have different tires or come in different colors, but you know that your Honda Accord is not the only one on the road. Constitution Class ships in TOS all looked basically the same, and we saw many of them. (The Constellation, The fleet of ships in the M5- war games, etc...) The Enterprise D is a Galaxy Class Starship, She's not a unique ship. Anymore than the dozens of Excelsior class, or Miranda(Reliant) variants we saw throughout TNG. Starships are built in batches. Just like cars, or real life navy ships. For a more recent example of ships being identical - The Pegasus was an Oberth Class starship (originally seen as the Grissom in Star Trek 3.). The Oberth class shooting model was used many times throughout TNG, including in the second episode "The Naked Now." The reason I draw this out is because, this is not "science shit." This isn't Star Trek dorks being critical of you for not getting in-universe jargon. This is how production of any kind of vehicle, whether its cars, trucks, aircraft, navy ships or space craft works. "Class" in this case is like "breed" of dog. There isn't just one German Shepard on the planet. The reason they used the Galaxy Class, and had a dude who if you squint has a vague appearance similar to Picard, is to say "This could have been our TNG people." This is a big moment. The sister to a Hero ship, and all her crew, were just glass jawed by a hereto unseen group. How is this going to play out? I suppose one of the technical-story issues is that because DS9 is in the growing pains of evolving from the episodic format into blending the stories together(As we have seen this season already), it has one foot on either side of the fence, and that can mean that sometimes the episodic stories suffer, and the potential "arc" elements aren't as fully realized because they're still trying to play it safe for their typical Trek audience, and neither side is as fully realized as it could be.

Brendon Waldron

The Stubbs/Gates wedding episode is my favourite...

Steven Johnson

I don't really see how it doesn't have "impact." It's completely glass jawed by the Jem'Hadar and taken off the board without much fuss> Which IS a big deal, because it could have easily been "our people" from TNG.

Brendon Waldron

Also, being important doesn't automatically make it good...

Doctor Pulaski

FYI - Ira Steven Behr also wrote on Yesterday's Enterprise, The Nagus, The Homecoming, Rules of Acquisition, The Maquis Part II, and The Collaborator... These were all pretty good; I think you guys should give the guy a break. I have a feeling he had more to do with the funny bits of Captain's Holiday than the "plot" stuff, (producers tend to meddle), and a lot of the nice character scenes in these episodes he had a hand in writing.

Doctor Pulaski

It doesn't makes sense to compare this to Best of Both World's. Q Who is a much better comparision in terms of introducing a new big bad; however, Q Who had better execution.

Reality Strikes

They’ve stated before they’re not into the tech or the ships(phasers and photon torpedoes, ship classes)like we are.

Summer

Sadly I can’t make a comment without possibly setting expectations or vaguely predicting something just keep watching, I do think with how excited you were about Nog maybe a B was deserved. Ending on the scene was never a big thing in the past some liked it some never cared

Doctor Pulaski

I don't think their problem is with the fact that there are more than one Galaxy Class ships in the fleet, which they understand just fine. I think it had more to do with how it was introduced and the execution of the episode as a whole, and they are not wrong. The introduction of the Odyssey and its captain/crew was super rushed.

Doctor Pulaski

I've been watching ahead Season 3 & 4 lately, and it really does get so much better. They will love it. Maybe not more than TNG (which to be fair is not a universal opinion and a big ask), but I think they will love it as their Trek home base show for the duration.

Doctor Pulaski

The fact that they love Jake & Nog bodes well for the show, much more than how they feel about the plot of this episode. DS9's strength is its character work, and based on that, they will love this show.

Steven Linden

It "could easily have been" but it wasn't. How many times have we seen the Enterprise (original or the D) escape from situations where similar ships were destroyed? We saw the Yamato destroyed in "Contagion", and we've even seen the Enterprise destroyed in episodes like "Time Squared" or "Cause and Effect". Obviously, I can't say you're wrong to feel that it had impact - I'm glad it did for you - but personally, it was never a big, shocking moment for me.

Vina

Josh and Alex's point about "who gives a fuck about these guys?" in regards to the Odyssey being destroyed instead of the writers either blowing up a different big Federation ship, or a Cardassian ship, or even the Enterprise, is fair. They're coming at it from a dramatic/story-telling perspective. The comments in the video mentioning it and in this discussion are coming at it from a lore/world-building perspective with concern for ship power levels. I agree that the suicide run kind of undercut the point of showing the Jem'Hadar ship is strong, but it DID show that they will do anything. It's scary when your enemy will do anything to stop you, even kill themselves. Which was Sisko's point. And maybe he didn't have say it out loud but TV audiences really do need things spelled out lol

Summer

Extremely true, especially with those it is easy not to notice at first

Doctor Pulaski

Strongly disagree, this episode is not representative of the show's quality going forward. It was a rushed finale that should have been a two-parter.

Chris M

I didnt say it was representative of its quality.

Doctor Pulaski

Season 1 of Buffy is painful to watch. Honestly, Buffy only get's great for maybe a dozen episodes, these are the ones we all remember. Angel, however, was the far superior show in that franchise...

River Acheron

There is a reason they used The Odyssey...another Galaxy-Class ship. The idea was to show just how powerful the Dominion is. If it WAS The Enterprise, it would have been destroyed. (But they of course couldn't destroy our TNG team. lol) Basically, it's supposed to be a "oh FUCK! These guys are a power like we have never seen before! They mean business. " You guys realized it. :) Edit: LMAO! Okay, after hearing the Patron Takes, I guess I am one of those people pointing out the obvious. I could have just deleted this, but I am open to making myself look like another one of those fans. :P

Michael Nemo

I could never get passed Cirroc's acting. He's good in small understated doses imo.

Doctor Pulaski

I feel like he acts like a normal kid his age. Compared to Will Wheaton, he is Daniel Day-Lewis

Steven Johnson

Which is why I said it's not "science shit." It's how things work in reality, as well.

Chris M

It absolutely did have impact at the time of release. The biggest and best of Starfleet just wiped away. The suicide run wasn’t even the issue, they could have easily done so without it. It was worse than the Borg because the Borg were impersonal, these were just guys, with egos.

Summer

In 2014 when I first saw DS9 on DVD, first, it began in Emissary the pilot episode, the first few seasons Jake and Keiko made it 5 times more likely I would like it. I am also more for the characters. Having seen all other Prime Trek that existed at that point, I was ready for DS9. My beloved Voyager could always be seen on another DVD the same with TNG, TOS was there too. I will not say this episode was a huge impact, probably because I immediately started season 3. But I am sure I had a snack, or it was midnight….

Doctor Pulaski

This would have been amazing!! Now I think this episode is E-tier because I need it to be Cox!

Steven Linden

Chris M - I watched it at the time of release, and I'm telling you the destruction of the Odyssey did not have a particularly big impact for me, any more than the destruction of the Yamato did in "Contagion". Things like the Jem'hadar walking through the containment field, or Eris beaming off to a location they couldn't trace, or even the Jem'hadar having detailed knowledge of Alpha quadrant politics all did much more to build up the Dominion as villains for me.

River Acheron

I do agree that if they fleshed out The Odyssey, spent some time on her, maybe got to know the characters a bit the past season or 2, maybe even showing up in season 7 of TNG...it would have had a MUCH bigger impact. I doubt the show thought this far in advance, but it would have been phenomenal.

River Acheron

ah. The Yamato. Not only another Galaxy Class, but same interior design, bridge and all. The Enterprises Sister-Ship, I believe.

River Acheron

It's just never going to happen, yeah. I love these guys, and I do understand what they want, but this is not the franchise for that. We can (VERY rarely) have our Data's Day, In Theory, Lower Decks, and the like, but the plot will ALWAYS be there. Especially with 90's TV sci-fi. I don't think it's fair to rate an episode based on wishing for a direction that won't and can't happen in the way they want it to. I don't even disagree with them in theory! I would LOVE an episode where *nothing* happens. But once you accept that it's not something you will see, it makes going forward easier. My opinion anyway. It would be like me getting down on Cyberpunk 2077 for not also being horror-cyberpunk the The Observer. Once I know the universe, and the intention etc....I don't wanna say I settle, but I accept the world I am in. I may wish different sometimes, which is okay! But I try to rate things within it's own milieu.

misti-step

idk i dont think 1 episode they thought was just alright will be the end of their ds9 enjoyment

Joe Concepts

I think people are overdoing it with the idea that ship is a stand-in for the Enterprise. Maybe it kind of is, but the idea also is that TNG constantly made sure we knew the Galaxy class ships were the greatest, most powerful ships in Starfleet. So destroying one was showing how big a threat the bad guys are. We did see another Galaxy class in TNG Season 2 when the computer virus blew it up. They all look the same. Also, I think us fans have to let it slide that our intrepid reactors aren't into technical things and stuff like what class a starship is. But they may have to bear with some of us more techie people feeling a little annoyance when they ignore that stuff. :)

KIT-8Ø102-A

i would imagine that they all come out of spacedock pretty much identical, then get customized as they get updated and repaired.

River Acheron

I cannot deny that I may be biased because I know what's coming. I got into DS9 and Trek in general only a few years back, and tbh I started with season 4, then went back. (Don't ask. Long story...I wanted to see *something* from DS9 that I cannot talk about because of spoilers, so I watched season 4 first which I kind of regret now. However, I binged in the correct order many times SINCE then), so I ALWAYS knew what was coming when I saw this and my love for this episode may be biased on that fact. In some weird way, I watched seasons 1 thru 3 as a prequel. lol

Joe Concepts

I think Quark defending the Ferengi to Sisko were great scenes. I wish Alex and Josh had a little more interest in that. I especially love that, well, Quark is kind of right. The tolerant, diversity-loving, respect all cultures people sure DO look down on Ferengi, right? And I think that old comment about them eating people can just be considered misinformation about aliens that the Feds never interacted with much. They made it seem like they barely knew each other existed back when Picard ran into them with the Stargazer back in the day.

River Acheron

Something tells me they will eventually love Ira. I will say no more.

Duncan McDonald

A simple cue from the writers, in their choice of which starship "type" to use: Guess what? We're not TNG, and to prove it, we're going to blow up the symbol of that show. That's it. That's the whole episode. It was, in every other way, a mediocre episode where very little happens. Enjoyable, but mediocre. What comes after it doesn't matter AT ALL. Live in the moment, for heavens sake. Is that not the point? To experience this show in parallel with TA? To enjoy it (and not enjoy it) along with them and to stop second-guessing and whispering from the side-lines? I'll tell you this for nothing, I enjoyed the episode a damn sight more than the comments section.

Philbot

This is kinda stupid. Like the Borg weren’t OP in their first episode? Or every episode they’ve been in! At least when not perverted by Lore.. as far as a season finale goes way better than shades of gray and the neutral zone for that matter. The 20th century humans wore on me.

River Acheron

I'll just say it. It's Beverly Howard's ghost, Ronin.

Chris Nunnally

They're taking the holidays off, so they haven't watched it yet.

Actuarial Lurker

Gentlemen- I see your point about "if you wanted to blow up the Enterprise, then have some balls and blow up the Enterprise". I agree that all the "tell and not show" dialogue at the end sucked. It reminded me of the 1970s Charlies Angels TV crime show where every episode was "the three Angels go undercover at a {strip club, beach resort, beauty contest, fill in the blank) to investigate a murder", do nothing but flash skin for 46 minutes and then get a "Scooby-Do" confession before the end credits. What they DON'T realize is the context of this episode when it aired and when it was written: This aired about a year after terrorists tried to blow up the WTC the first time in Feb 1993, a few weeks after the "Troubles" in Northern Ireland between Catholics and Protestants escalated into many bombings, and also right after Israel and Palestinians started warring after an attack at Hebron where Muslim worshippers were gunned down in MID-Prayer and then Israeli civilians were targeted in mid-day for revenge. (It was also weeks before a Japanese death cult released Sarin gas in the Tokyo subways injuring hundreds- but that was in the future) So the world was particularly on edge about radical suicide bound attackers when this episode aired- it basically was saying "if you think that the Bajoran freedom fighters and Macquis are terrorists lets give you some good old 1990s Earth-style ones which made DS9 nice and dark compared to TNG and that just DID NOT age well to today, since a 30 year old today wasn't even born when this aired... It was too "on the nose" to age well making it a low B or high C instead of an A.

Ryan

One of my favorite parts of this series is how often they deconstruct the idea of the Federation itself. No Trek series up to this point had the guts to do that, except maybe a little in Star Trek 6 (and we know that won't be making a reappearance here).

River Acheron

Bajroan Priest....literally everyone talked about "just wait until what's coming". How is even saying that a spoiler? I said ZERO. lol. All I said is, its a hard episode to talk about without talking about things that will be coming up. I am STRONGLY maintaining that I spoiled nothing

tyranusfan

Funny you mentioned the Odyssey bridge. At the time this was being filmed, they had just wrapped on All Good Things, and they were filming Generations, and EVERY bridge set they had was being used in one form or another for the movie. DS9 had to cobble together pieces from the Saratoga (DS9 pilot), various freighters and the Prometheus (that boring episode with Gideon Sayatek and his phantom wife) to make the Odyssey. They added a curved railing to simulate the arch where Worf normally stood. That's why you only see it from one angle the whole time.

Ryan

I think they'll appreciate the way this show tackles things in future seasons. DS9 isn't afraid to take big swings even if they don't always connect. Call the writers Charlie, because they like to swing for the fences.

Scribe31oz

I disagree. Without going into spoilers, they're where we were at the time of viewing. We're seeing it from the lens of having seen the entire seven seasons. DS9 took its time world building and when you haven't seen the complete picture, its not fair to say they won't like it. If everyone recalls, the first two seasons weren't received that well at air date either. There were gems but it was hit and miss. Season 2 in terms of quality is exactly were S2 of TNG was. Where DS9 comes out ahead in in payoffs.

Jon1701

Yeah it’s no more than a B

xadg

This could probably be considered a spoiler for Generations.

Marko

Jem Dahar masters

River Acheron

That is my POINT. lol. You absolutely missed my point. 100%. My point was that even episodes like that had plots. my POINT was that EVERY episode does. You are PROVING the point I am making. The boys want a plotless episode, and my argument is, you cannot do Star Trek without a plot. It's not a sitcom and you cant have NOTHING sci-fi, political, or important happen. My entire point was they should not tier-rank an episode for a wish (no plot, just characters having a day). I would also love an episode like that, but it's gotta be accepted that it wont happen in Star Trek, and a lower tier-grade because the plot gets in the way of what someone wishes should not be a fully valid grade of the episode. This is just my opinion.

Collin Freeman

Yes, but consider the writers and experience of writing for those 2 characters at their respective times in the franchise, as well.

River Acheron

No. Stop talking about spoilers when there isnt any. This is not a spoiler and I will not delete this. Enough is enough. I am very careful about what I say and I didn't cross a line. I am saying things that they TALKED ABOUT! They know how important this episode is. Everyone is saying it. I said nothing here that counts as a spoiler. So stop. You are commenting on everyone's posts about things that are not even close to being spoilers. Because I said something is season 4 interested me? What does that say? Something interesting happens in season 4. Wow! Big spoiler.

Collin Freeman

I am not saying they won't like DS9 overall when it's done, but from what I know (granted, not a lot) about the series from this point going forward, it seems what most fans liked were the stories and plot, which is not what Alex and Josh are as interested in. If you've been here for a good minute, you know they want character stuff way more than plot or story. Again, not saying character development won't happen, but it may not be to the extent these guys would prefer. I could very well be wrong on this, because as I said, I was checked out for most of DS9 from season 3 on for various reasons, and to correct me would be a spoiler. I'll just watch along on the DS9 TA journey and see what happens.

River Acheron

i will not delete this comment. I crossed no lines. You are acting as the comment police today. I have been here a long time, and I have always been very careful about what I say. I will not delete my comment. Something intereresting happens for me in season 4 that I knew about and wanted to check. Well, something ALWAYS interesting happens. And plus I did not even give a HINT. Something interesting happens for me in season 4 and you think it's a spoiler? Just...wow.

Elizabeth N

I've been here so long I think I've seen every big controversy come and go. Looking forward to seeing the fallout on this one! 😂 Personally, I like the episode and was a little disappointed at how underwhelmed you were. Then again, as you said, I'm coming at it from the perspective of having seen the whole show. Hoping you'll enjoy where all this set up leads!

Darren

Altho I love the use of the Galaxy class, I do think the Odyssey should have been sprinkled into the season a bit more 🤷‍♂️

River Acheron

Which is why I highly disagree with much of Gene's vision. As Star Trek here gets darker and more...I wanna be fair here because the Federation isn't evil or anything...lets say....morally ambiguous, I think would be true to real life and the Utopia he envisioned was (in some cases) biased, and secondly unrealistic. Which is why I think DS9 is legit the most realistic portrayal of the Federation.

River Acheron

Who ARE you!? I wasn't even ambiguous! You come here barking orders at EVERYONE telling them to delete threads that frankly had no spoilers. And no. I was not even borderline. So stop.

Marko

It's Mark Twain.

River Acheron

Hey guys. Something really interesting happens in season 5 at some point. Oh I guess thats a spoiler now too?

Doctor Pulaski

Collin, buckle up, because DS9 is going to blow your mind. It is on the same quality curve as TNG... So by comparison we just watched shades of gray...

Bantha Fodder

I vote for a top 20 worst episodes of tng video. But you have to include the best scene of each of those episodes.

Summer

For TNG retrospective showing character arc growth clips

River Acheron

It's a twist! Its Deep Throat from The X-Files cosplaying as Mark Twain

Marko

I strongly recommend you do not allow comments on this episode on Youtube. Or if turning them off might be detrimental to the channel, rather do not look at the comment section, really ignore them. Not because they'll be upset with your reaction (that's a given) but because of spoilers. You've set yourself to be spoiled heavily. We here are all really invested so that you don't get spoiled. A good part of youtube audience also doesn't want that to happen. But a significant part of them do not care if you do. And those SOBs will not be able to resist spurting out comments, or answers that would reveal heavy spoilers. And throughout this reaction you gave comments, questions, that they will not be able to resist answering.

River Acheron

Good. He deleted his posts. All Is said was I started DS9 on my first watch in season 4 and went out of order because I was interested in something I knew that happened in season 4 that interested me Thats ALL. My post is still up there. He said that was a spoiler. lmao 🤣 Something I was personally interested in made me watch season 4 first. Let that sink in. And I am called out telling me to delete that.

Raphael Gaytan

HOLY SHIT!!! SO IT WASN’T JUST ME!! THANK YOU, ALEX!! When this episode first aired, I thought it was pretty meh. I did NOT like the destruction of a Galaxy-Class Starship to prove what a new, big baddie the Jem’hadar were. I thought it was nothing but a cheap stunt. I also felt it was very disrespectful to TNG. After thinking about it for years, I believe a big part was due to the loss of TNG, my favorite series ever. I was still in mourning. But this episode made me feel like I had come from a funeral where somebody knocked the body out of the casket. It didn’t mean I wasn’t looking forward to the possibilities of where this setup might lead…but this particular episode never did it for me. 🖖

tyranusfan

At first, I thought them using the Galaxy class here was unnecessary. They could have used any ship. BUT, if they had done that, every fan would have gone "well, if the Enterprise had been there..." and that's exactly what the writers didn't want.

tyranusfan

Captain's Holiday suffered a lot from GENE's interference. He was the one obsessed with the sex planet. On top of that, Patrick Stewart insisted on the romance plot. I don't think Ira should be blamed for that.

paultardspambot .

That was the whole thing wrath of khan was about but that was deconstructing TOS specifically

paultardspambot .

Alex points out the dominion isnt plaing fair. exactly. they aren't just over powered, but theres no sense of honor or anything but absolute devotion to the Dominion

Doctor Pulaski

River Acheron, the difference between tyranusfan's posts and your posts is that you actually do put spoilers in them. Please stop.

THE LORE!!!

@River Acheron I almost made a similar comment before but I showed some restraint. Definitely not the only one thinking along those lines haha.

River Acheron

I mention things that was SAID IN THE VIDEO! Lmao. I want a full example of where I spoiled even a TINY plot! I am an OG memeberr and i have NEVER spoiled even an IDEA let alone a plot

paultardspambot .

Season 1 kind of sets the atmosphere, i liked it, but yeah, season 2 was when it became a hit

River Acheron

So were so paranoid now we cant say what 20 other people said and Alex and Josh actually acknowledged in the video!? I never even hinted at a spoiler let alone gave one

paultardspambot .

yeah, what alex is complaining about was kind of the point. You're lulled into a sense thats its going to be a fun goofy episode which makes everything that happens more shocking. For me, "oh no the plot is kicking in" is when in TNG they add some sci fi b story that isnt interesting, not this.

River Acheron

I also wanna point out that it was said in multiple Q and As that its fine if we say we have opinions on future seasons or series. I said something interested me in season 4 and im called out for that. Mind you, thats ALL i said! I also said that this is a prelude to something big coming which was ALREADY acknowledged and the SHOW acknowledged it! Alex and Josh even talked about it. I didn't even say a WORD that would be considered a spoiler.

Brandon Blume

Great reaction, guys. And yes, the idea of using a Galaxy Class ship was to show the power of the new big bad, like everyone has said so far. But it wasn't just about the enemy's technology being more powerful. It was about their attitude to battle being completely different and vicious. They straight up kamikazed and destroyed a Galaxy Class starship as it was trying to escape. Sisko said it best, they're showing us how far they're willing to go. This is unlike any adversary the Federation has met before. It's not just being outclassed and outgunned, but also being shown absolutely no mercy. Even the Borg wouldn't do this because the Borg are interested in assimilation of cultures and technology. The Dominion just straight kills you. AND they're competently organized. That's a bit more frightening. I say this as somebody who never liked DS9's approach to almost anything in the franchise. But I get what they are trying to do and it's effective. I just don't care for it. And no, this is not anywhere close to the realm of the universe of the reality of Best of Both Worlds. If anything I'd liken it to Q Who, but it doesn't even hold a candle to that. In terms of introducing a villain, sure. But it did not have the impact and the entertainment value of Q Who.

jon bolton

My Star Trek journey was a bit different. My mum got me into TOS in 1990 when i was 10. i saw the pilot of DS9 when it first broadcast in England, not long after a friend at school lent me Season 1 Voyager on VHS. Apart from TOS movies and a random Season 5 episode of DS9 i luckily caught by accident, i saw nothing else new for years, apart from buying Season 4 of Voyager. After seeing Generations (my first taste of TNG) i gradually watched random episodes of TNG, DS9 and Voyager on digital channels before buying them all. In the last few years i've got into some of the later shows like Picard, Lower Decks, Enterprise, Strange New Worlds. I've not tried Discovery yet but look forward to it.

paultardspambot .

I'll agree they do tend to dislike episodes when it isnt what they want... which is fair, but... can be frustrating when its like "well it wasnt this, so it sucks" To be fair here, Alex isn't wrong in terms of wahat they are going for here. setting up a "big bad" I just.... liked it a lot more i guess and none of the stuff he mentioned bothered me

Brandon Blume

It's not just about being OP, it's about their attitude. The Borg aren't vicious. This was about meeting a species in battle that can match and even outgun you. So they're competent, but they're also unrelenting and vicious. Yet highly organized. They're a large feared power in an entire quadrant. The Federation has never met a species with both aspects before. The Borg assimilate, the Jem'Hadar just destroy. I think that's a bit scarier. They're not a hive mind that you can't relate to. They're people. But they're radicalized. But not rabid. Competent. This is different.

Utterlee

Alex has got to stop getting annoyed every time an episode has a plot.

River Acheron

I would highly suggest you actually read the rules on what we can and cannot say but I was NOT giving any spoiler, I didn't even HINT! I didn't even sly-sneak, I didn't do ANY of that shit. So don't you DARE SAY that I tried to spoil a GODDAMN FUCKING thing when I was actually trying to be careful

Summer

We watched TOS movies, some TOS, and TNG when I was a kid, as an adult I reembrced Trek slowly, mainly Voyager and then TNG first and the movies especially number 4, I could remember a lot of TNG, also saw Enterprise when I was 23, by 2014 I decided I had not really seen DS9 yet and I should so binged. Yes the new stuff has been more recent, I like SNW, animation can be hard on my eyes but like Lower Decks and Prodigy. I have seen Discovery and Picard. On DVD and streaming I watched these series many times. Then rediscovering them with reactors has been neat

Josh’s Hairy Forearms

List of other stuff Alex doesn’t like because other people like them: 1. Ww2 ends 2. Cancer remissions 4. Pandemic ends 4. Children rescued from sexual trafficking

Brandon Blume

That was the reason I believe the captain of the Odyssey was made out to be arrogant. And at odds with Dax specifically, a character who has lived many lifetimes, so lots of wisdom there, and she still can't stand this person. That was a warning sign. They were showing that the Federation (and Star Trek fans in general really) were all cushy and comfy and thinking they could handle anything. Turns out, nope. It was an effective way to drive the point home. A bit tropeish, but effective. Certainly in 1994.

jon bolton

I feel similar Kirsten, loads of stuff i'm bursting to say but for obvious reasons won't lol.

Shortskirtsandexplosions

I appreciate the angle: most of the fans know where the Dominion plot goes, but Alex and Josh don't. I can really respect that perspective, and I'm glad you judge it as you experience it. I must admit that I've never really LIKED liked this episode. While Quark delivers some good lines, his attempt to exalt the Ferengi over humanity is pretty hammy and forced. All the stuff done to sell the Jem'Hadar as INTIMIDATING feels pretty forced and cheap. Two personal take-aways that make me give the episode a thumbs-up, for the most part. 1) It's not a dragged-out two parter. 2) I indeed do know about the Dominion situation as a whole, and for that sake I tend to tolerate this episode. Does that mean the Dominion are actually "pretty cool?" You'll have to keep watching to find out~

Tin

With TNG TV finished, I'm here just to see Alex get triggered by something. The next few years of Star Trek will be fertile ground.

Doctor Pulaski

Seriously though, you had a couple of comments that were telegraphing things to come in a way that crossed the established definition of what TA considers a spoiler. Regardless of whether or not you agree with that definition of spoiler, it is not cool for the rest of us. I am asking you nicely to please consider your actions and stop.

Better Watch Trek

I always thought they chose to have the Odysee to be a Galaxy Class ship was only because TNG production was done and they had plenty of spare models left and were allowed to blow up one. As far as I remember from some making off, the Enterprise got an larger model for the movie because of the higher resolution (and the higher budged)

Doctor Pulaski

I’m Doctor Fucking Pulaski, that’s who the fuck I am. As chief medical officer I have the authority to medically relieve you from duty. Now go sleep off this drinking bender you are on, that’s an order mister!

River Acheron

Something eventually will happen in Star Trek next season. Oh dear! I spoiled something!

River Acheron

Sleep it off!? Im waiting until my parents leave the room so I can take the car to get more alcohol lol. No worries! I wont be here. I got some videogames to play Thank Bajoran Priest. He drove me to drink

Remi Samson

I just clicked on something. When they got back to the station, imagine having to break the news to all the non-essential crew/civilians that were left at the station before the Odyssey left. Like, what, 300-400 people finding out that they lost their ship and all the people they knew?! Friends, family, crewmates. I've watched this episode dozens and dozens of times, I never gave a second thought to the Odyssey's surviving crew once the DS9 crew comes back to the station. I know... rando observation. Anyway, looking forward to season 3! :-)

Trekkie74205

According to the Star Trek: Deep Space Nine Companion, pp. 154-155, the writers intentionally made the Odyssey a Galaxy-class ship to emphasize that the Dominion was a much more threatening force than anything the Enterprise-D had encountered, with Robert Hewitt Wolfe noting even Jean-Luc Picard wouldn't have stood a chance in the same situation.

Brandon Blume

It was also in the season 2 episode Where Silence Has Lease (sorta).

Brandon Blume

I love watching your guys' reactions to each episode because sometimes they'll be identical to mine and other times they'll be so polar opposite. You always say you like the character moments the most and the episodes that knock that out of the park are many of your favourites. It's ironic to me because as a kid I always hated those episodes and skipped them. Sometimes fast forwarding through the small ones in episodes that I liked (aka- had a plot ;) ). I've always loved the plot more than the characters. The older I've gotten the more I've come to appreciate the characters and the character moments. But I always like the zoomed out scope of a show with all the lore and the techno-babble and the broader implications, etc. I also love many of the character moments too. This is why I hated DS9 because I couldn't understand why a science fiction show wasn't dealing with science fiction most of the time. It bored me to tears. I get it now as an adult, but I still have that child in me that loves Star Trek first and foremost for the science fiction. And I know science fiction in the past has always been a vehicle to deal with character drama and dress up modern day issues in terms everyone can understand. And I love Star Trek for doing that. It's always done that. But I love me my Cause and Effect, The Next Phase, Timescape, Time Squared, etc first and foremost. Episodes with little or no character moments. I do love the plot. Appreciate you guys. I'll always be here to watch all the way through! (well, most of the way through. I don't have much investment in most of the content after Enterprise ends)

AnnoHolic

Picard's Enterprise-D is a Galaxy-class vessel. Starfleet possesses several ships of this class. While the Enterprise-D is the flagship of Starfleet, it is not unique. Other Galaxy-class ships were also featured in TNG (2x11 Contagion). The reason for choosing a Galaxy class was its impact on fans. It would mean that even the Enterprise would have stood no chance, especially considering the sheer number of lives on board a Galaxy-class ship—up to 1,000 crew members. This had a powerful effect at the time. It meant that Starfleet had no ship capable of taking on the Jem'Hadar vessels. It was intended to present a credible threat to fans. Unfortunately, and this is not a criticism, it's fun to watch you, but sometimes you two don't see the franchise as a whole, but only from a personal point of view: did this episode entertain me or not?

tyranusfan

ANYWAY, I used to agree with a Josh that using a ship the same as Enterprise was unnecessary, but I came to agree with the show runners that it was the right thing to do.

River Acheron

I def see why they chose to go that route and I confess I always thought it was brilliant. Destroying the Enterprise without destroying The Enterprise. Could there have been better ways? Uh...i actually don't know! Probably? I also see the complaints about it now and I can't say I fully disagree. It's a tough one.

Jason Aud

Random thought, what if the Odyssey had been commanded by say Captain Jellico a familiar face from TNG? Also with Ensign Gates....er's twin sister also Ensign Gates! Obviously they weren't going to kill of the Enterprise crew but might have even given more stakes not that the 1000+ crew ship wasn't enough.

River Acheron

I am trying to be nice now. Is this next drink a spoiler to my liver? No but in all seriousness I kinda lost track of why im here. Its Target Audience. Alex and Josh. And watching along with them and commenting. From now on, if I accidentally say something that spoils, they will message me im sure and tell me where I messed up or delete the comment. I am not listening to the community and I decided I wont even read comments. :) I certainly will not delete any posts from now on, on some random persons say-so. Only Alex and Josh can say if I spoil and I do NOT spoil. It's their opinion of spoilers what matters. :) I am not here for the community aspect because its moot. We have all seen Trek and we have nothing to say to eachother anyway. We certainly won't change anyone's minds. But stupid me got sidetracked into the community aspect and thats when drama happened

Wizardling

You really need to grow up.

Brendon Waldron

I'm sorry to be blunt, but that's pretty stupid. The point is not spoil it for Josh and Alex, if they have to tell you its a spoiler, than it's too late. Other point it out to you so that Josh and Alex don't see it and get spoiled, since not spoiling it for them is the whole point. You need to not take it so personally, it's not about you.

paultardspambot .

rappin jake sisko Headin' through the wormhole to survey like Richard Dawson(1) For a routine mission, shoulda exercised some caution- Dad's readings of life signs turn out to be specious When the camp is broken up by some chick's telekinesis The three of them are captured by the Jem'hadar Who know all about 'em, they've been watching from afar. Back on the station, they rally 'round the Odyssey But Captain Keogh's arrogant, got no time for modesty The ships show up and carry out the rescue They beat a retreat when an enemy gets through Their defenses for a kamikaze run Forget the Captain 'cause he's done Quark confronts my pop, tells him the captive's shackle was a fake And then that's where we stop, you'll have to wait 'til Fall to hear from Jake.

River Acheron

My point is trust in myself and what I know about Josh and Alex. I have watched every Q and A. I know exactly what they consider a spoiler. If a community member tells me to delete something that I know for a FACT isn't a spoiler to Josh and Alex I will not delete it. I actually think that's fair. I am being nice here. But I will no longer tolerate a random demand to delete something based on someone jumping the gun. I am sorry and you have a right to disagree with it, but I would never argue anymore or cause drama. I am using my own judgment as we ALL should :) If I see an unreasonable demand, like if I say, "omg season 6 is the best ever" and i am told to delete that, I will not. Being over-cautious is a detrimental thing as well and can affect discourse. To the point everyone is afraid to say anything. So I am using my own judgment from now on. I honestly do think that's fair, yes. This is the way it must be for me going forward.

paultardspambot .

yeah, they noted he was arrogant which explains him not retreating when he really should have. I guess to be fair from his perspective you don't want to show the dominion you're scared

Etman

God this comment section is embarrassing. The ship classes and suicide explosion have been explained 50 times in these comments. You don't need to post another 3-4 paragraphs about it. And if one of them doesn't like the episode, that's what it is. If you want to watch people gloss every episode there are brainless content creators that legitimately do that. It's their first time watching and for those of us who have watched TNG and DS9 multiple times, we all know we picked up more and more each time. And we didn't have a camera in our face and a bunch of people judging our opinions online. Calm the f down.

Kosh Naranek

No kidding...dude is crashing out bigly.

Kosh Naranek

Agree. I'm sure they will come around as time progresses.

Brendon Waldron

The problem is that you've shown you can't be trusted. I'm sure you think you're doing the right thing, but everybody messes up every now and then and you take it as personal attack and get offended at the idea that you might have spoiled something, that has shown you might not be able to remain objective on this. Even when people point out how its a spoiler, you double down and insist. That's not a recipe for trusting you. From what I've seen, maybe you don't always know what's considered a spoiler...

Kosh Naranek

Everyone has a miss here and there

River Acheron

Cant be trusted? How so? I maintain I didn't spoil and I am saying this for the last time: I will not listen to the community. Understand? Now this is not something you can do anything about. I am trying to be nice. My point is I wont even read comments to what I say so the point is moot. Period

River Acheron

I will continue how I always continued and if someone gives me a stupid demand to delete something that I KNOW is not a spoiler, number 1, I wont even see the comment and if by chance I did, im not gonna listen because someone who jumped the gun demanded I do. I dont see why this is an argument. Or why I should have to listen when Alex and Josh says certain mindsets like OPINIONS are not spoilers, but someone in the community thinks it is. Ill be blunt: I dont care what that community member thinks. I care about what Alex and Josh thinks and I WILL use my own judgment and if that doesn't sit well with you, thats not my problem. Okay? Can I be clearer than that? Omggg

River Acheron

Also Bajoran, I dont want an argument. I am telling you very nicely to never respond to my comments. I want NOTHING to do with you. If you disagree with what I say, please keep it to yourself and leave me alone. I do not know how many times I must say I will not delete my comments. If there IS an issue, Alex and/or Josh will message and say "thats not cool. In the future, don't talk about such-and-such kind of things" and that is ALL i will listen to. NOT you. With all due respect. Is that understood yes or no? If you do not like this response that's COMPLETELY on you alone. You are not the police here so stop because if you want the truth, you pissed off others who said absolutely nothing remotely spoilerish. YOU caused all this. I am trying and have been trying to disengage and I will listen to THEIR definition of a spoiler. NOT YOURS

tyranusfan

The model used here was the "4-footer" used for TNG from season 3 onward. (They were using the original, ILM-built "6-footer" for Generations. It was the primary one they used for seasons 1-3.) They did not blow up the model. The wreckage seen used parts leftover from one of the models they used in Cause and Effect and a superimposed explosion effect.

River Acheron

Lets do it this way. I will do my thing, you do yours. If you continue to point out innocent things as spoilers you are only putting a magnifying glass on it. I am not going stricter than I already have. I am extremely respectful and have not crossed any line. But lets say I say "i adore season 5" and you say "thats a spoiler! You know why! delete that! You dont want anyone to know about that thing" then you are the one raising eyebrows that make an innocent opinion into something that COULD lead to spoiler territory. Please think about that for a moment. I am very conservative with what I say, but the comments after is what magnifies it

Evan Guthrie

In Peak Performance, they were initially going to use a Constitution class (Enterprise from TMP) as Picard's old ship as the other Federation ship, but decided that people would see it and confuse it with the Enterprise. Seeing you get confused at first with the Odyssey means they were probably right in Peak Performance.

Brocolli

I paid $5 for this one because it's such a milestone episode for myself and DS9 fans. That you guys often have a complete 180 reaction to the fan favorites and make fun of Ira Steven Behr is what reassures me that your reactions are real. Unfortunately, there are many suspect blind reactions out there to older properties. Your takes are always unexpected, genuine and not pandering or aligned to what the fans have held dearly for 30 years. As far as Ira Steven Behr - many fans consider him one of the greatest of all Star Trek writers/producers but it will have to wait until the TNG head honchos move to Voyager and forget about DS9 so that can do what he wants.

Evan Guthrie

The Jem'Hadar walking through the security field was so badass. Definitely my favorite moment of the episode. But I think you guys are right for the most part, this episode really feels like all setup when examined on its own. I'm betting a lot of patrons perceive your review as a dangerously negative reaction to what it's setting up. But that doesn't matter because you haven't seen it. I won't delve into specifics, but it seems like your complaints are about how it was done (the plot interrupting a fun episode, exposition, boring direction, lack of character moments). And like you said, it's not that grander scale episodes turn you off, they only do when they rely on that scale to carry the episode.

Evan Guthrie

You guys talking about how the Odyssey was a cheap copy of the Enterprise that exists for the purpose of killing it off, it reminds me of Kirk's brother's death

Evan Guthrie

I always forget that not everybody geeks out on ship classes like I do

Ryan

I agree with you, but I also think we're pretty safe on this. The standout episodes of this show (which are also the most character-driven episodes) are just well-written television even if you don't like the overall vibe of the show.

Comrade Wireless Caller

The Jem'Hadar have finally arrived. Time to kick into overgear, crank it up a notch, get the DS9 afterburners glowing. And you know so on and so forth!

Mark Wood

Alex and Josh What a lot of people don't understand (and this applied to me for about 20 years as well), is that the actual unique costs (versus fixed costs that apply to every episode) of an episode of Trek at this time is typically between 175,000 to 300,000 dollars (this higher end was typical season opener, big sweeps episodes). Season Finales might have that budget, but they also might not if the show had been running over budget through the season. To go over pattern is a big no no. It must balance out by the end of the season, unless the studio approves the overage. The typical cost of a better quality ship is between 20,000 to 75,000 a model . That cost is a huge hit on a shows budget and why so many episodes just use ships that in canon would be close to a 100 years old. Ships that are rented, or loaned, or scraps and household items that are exceedingly poor quality models never intended to be seen clearly. This episode already features a new quality ship build, and is pretty fx heavy (for Trek up to this point). Its doubtful they could have afforded to build a new quality model for this episode.

Shatner’s Cigarette

FYI, I'm currently writing - in Word - an excruciatingly long, boring and detailed white-paper on ship classes. Has anyone here ranted about Starfleet starship classes yet? I'm too lazy to scroll, but my guess is "no" and I'll be the first.

ScotchBeard78

Re: suggestions for your TNG cool-down period -- you guys can now finally watch "CHAOS ON THE BRIDGE," a documentary narrated by William Shatner about the first two disastrous seasons of TNG behind-the-scenes. It's incredible, and you guys will love it.

Brendon Waldron

Nah, they just need to stop getting him excited that there's no plot and then introduce half a plot half way through the episode...

alyssagynepuppy

Just wanna add that there actually was one other Galaxy class ship shown in TNG, the Yamato in the season 2 episode Contagion. Funnily enough she was also blown up in the episode.

Mark Wood

On why Trek by and large forgoes character work that isn't tied to a clear science fiction story is quite simple. They've been told by the studio to not do those types of stories. For quite a number of years (read decades) TV Trek's bread and butter financially wasn't original airing revenue or (the first rerun done in season), but daily syndication. This directive dates back to TNG's Family, the first character piece not tied directly to a sci-fi plot. That episode in its first rerun, and its use in daily syndication did terrible ratings. The studio pays a lot of attention on to that sort of thing. You would think with as popular as TNG was during the bulk of its run, it would allow them more creative control, it actually made the studio not want to rock the boat. And made them more hesitant to take creative chances. On DS9 at this point there has already been delivered two such studio mandated directives.

Philbot

I was randomly wondering if you guys were sent any Trek Novels by fans. I read a lot growing up in the 90’s they’re fun, not canon they read like fanfic really. But they can be fun reads! I’d recommend Imzadi, crossover, Vendetta, Federation, or dark Mirror and I also like the Shatnerverse novels, but I wouldn’t read any of them until after you’ve seen Generations.

Philbot

Wasn’t that the Battle where the Stargazer was supposed to have been a Constitution class?

Philbot

Did they leave people behind? I didn’t hear the command? But I’ve thought of the civilians aboard the Yamato, and the D in best of both worlds. They never bothered to evacuate families before they faced the Borg, did they?

Lucas Kane

Thinking ahead of what these two are about to watch... Remembering it all almost gives me PTSD. Eris was spot on: "You have no idea what's begun here."

StealthMomo

I mean, not for nothing but the Enterprise D is a Galaxy Class starship, and the other Galaxy Class starships in the fleet look like the Enterprise D. There are other ship configurations of course but the main-line fleet in this period are Galaxy Class. Just as in TOS the Enterprise is a Constitution Class ship, as were the other 12 exploration/defense ships in the fleet (ex. the Defiant in The Tholian Web and the Constellation in The Doomsday Machine). Enterprise wasn't always the flagship, either. During the TOS era, the flagship was Yorktown (which is also what the Enterprise was originally named in Roddenberry's early drafts).

Just another Red Shirt

I agree with you guys, this episode always pissed me off the way they made the galaxy class go down so easily, it was clearly the show runners throwing a dig at the other show, and it breaks the immersion. The galaxy class should’ve been swarmed by at least three ships, and odyssey should have been shown at least to have destroyed two out of the three enemy ships before going down like in yesterday’s enterprise with the Klingons .

River Acheron

Well, while I maintain I didn't spoil anything, I should apologize for my behavior about it. I may have been a little rude, sarcastic and snippy lastnight. I definitely should not have posted my number which I barely remember doing! (which I deleted). I also should not have insulted anyone. I got heavily drunk and then the stress made me go out and get MORE alcohol and....yeah. I should have just disengaged from the debate. It was the alcohol. It wasn't me. :)

Sam Langanke

TA: "We don't like Sci-Fi plots!" I: "Okay, an interesting different perspective." TA: "We don't like any plots." I: "Why am I paying for this?"

Captain Proton

main line fleet was Galaxy class? I always thought the Galaxy class was the big guns but most of the fleet was comprised of smaller ships. There's even Mirandas in service during the TNG period.

TC Green

There is a line of dialogue before Odyssey leaves the station that they will leave after all the civilians have been disembarked to the station.

Worf and Riker Ride Again

The other Galaxy class ships would have looked the same (from the exterior) but they definitely didn't make up the bulk of the fleet. They were big, heavy, resource-expensive ships, most of the fleet would have been smaller or older ships.

TC Green

Quark is great in this episode. I also like how Sisko is smart enough to sit back and let Quark annoy the l guard. Great little moment that shows Sisko actually respects Quark in a way.

Wizardling

That totally misses the point that Federation shields and weapon tech are woefully behind The Dominion's. The end of the episode makes it clear that this is the setup for a big threat. It wouldn't be much of a threat if a single Star Fleet ship outclasses three Dominion warships.

Matchstick Jose

“Huh, I wonder why there are so many comments on this video already.” Reads comments. “Ohhhh.” I would just say, waayyy more important that Josh and Alex are willing to piss off their audience with a reaction because that’s how they genuinely feel about an episode, even though they don’t enjoy doing it, and I’m sure it must be uncomfortable. That’s called having integrity.

EmptyDice

It would appear that Target Audience is in fact NOT the target audience of Star Trek, especially since DS9. I Love this episode! Solid B+, adding a + for the redshirt ship.

Ryan

Same here, and you recommended the same novels I would. Peter David (RIP) and Diane Duane were always my go-to TNG authors. I don’t think either of them ever wrote a bad book.

Mark Plemmons

Oh, its so hard not to comment on what's coming....

Matchstick Jose

I definitely get the complaints. The real meat of the episode character-wise is Quark earning some respect from Sisko, but that has very little to do with the introduction of the Dominion. It just kind of gives flavor to the episode. Probably the best example to this point of pairing a plot with really epic scope with an intimate character study is BOBW, with the scale of the Borg invasion complemented perfectly with Riker’s inner turmoil about leaving the Enterprise and/or taking command of his own ship. This episode doesn’t have anything that elegant, and I can understand how that might fall flat for some.

BN13

Everyone in the comments needs to chill and remember that the only reason why we rate this episode so highly is because we already know what this is the beginning of. We're viewing this episode as representing the rest of the show as a whole already when it really doesn't deserve that. We're just excited to finally get going. If you're watching this for the first time though, the Dominion really doesn't seem all that interesting. It's literally just the introduction of the new big bad. They have no reason to care about the new big bad yet. Except for the ending, this episode really is kind of a C/B on its own. And ultimately, it's even forgettable. It's just funny that the beginning is what they liked most, when that's usually the part most fans forget, and we're all excited about the end. But we should come to expect that from TA by now. They've said several times that that's the kind of stuff they like.

JRandolph

Truth be told, I think I probably agreed more with Josh and Alex when this episode premiered than I remember, and I suspect some others out there did too. There's a real difference in how I perceived DS9 immediately after seven seasons of TNG (where the guys are now) and how I see it after watching every episode 3-4 times over. I wonder how much their feelings about a given episode will change on a second trip thru the whole series.

Carl Williams

I have to say I was initially worried watching their tepid response to this one, but I ultimately agree with the assessment that people may be viewing this one more from the perspective of what it means for the show vs the actual episode itself. Personally I don’t think this one is all that great either, and it’s never ever mentioned even in the top 25 best of this series, at least from any lists or discussions I’ve seen. I think it’s being a bit overrated here and I have nothing but faith that the future of the show is going to put all of Alex and Josh’s fears of the characters being put on the back burner in favor of grand plotting to rest.

Forbidden Donut

I kinda want to keep a glossary of mispronounced terms/names (or just made up substitutes) as TA continues along its Trek journey. Off the top of my head, we have the Gem'D'Harr, we have Dorf, we have Roundabouts, and we all love special guest start Mark Uh-LAY-moe. I feel like I'm forgetting others.

Forbidden Donut

Regarding the Odyssey being a galaxy class ship, I was fine with it because it's already established that Starfleet has multiple ships of that class (recall the USS Yamato on TNG in season... 2?) and as far as I know this is their biggest, best ship model, so it makes sense to send some 'teeth' to help with finding Sisko.

Forbidden Donut

I kinda like Josh's idea for a Trek show about surveying planets. They could be out there on one of those small Federation science ships. Good excuse to double down on making it about the characters and their interactions instead of needing to 'go big' as often (or at all). Trek really has a lot of directions to go in, it's just a matter of execution.

john reed

the was 4 galaxy class ships commissioned at the start uss enterprise uss odyssey uss yamato and uss galaxy

Deep Red

I have to be honest. I was very excited about this episode reaction. As I was watching it with you guys again, I definitely cooled on my opinion of it. Despite "Knowing where everything goes", something about this episode felt awkwardly edited/paced. I don't mind "the plot" showing up, but it felt like the episode was very perfunctory, if that makes sense. Like we had to awkwardly get to our marks before the scene ended. Still a lot of good stuff in it. I like the Jem'Hadar and the first third or so is pretty perfect. RIP the comment section of this one lol. I hope all the "oh it's crazy where this series go" comments don't get on your nerves too much

TC Green

This episode is fine… Not even close to the show’s “Best of Both World’s.”

Malamute

This is more like it should episode 1 of season 3.

Ian Meyers

This reaction is why I'm sticking around throughout the entire franchise, you guys are fucking hilarious

Gary Willig

IDK, even without the context of what comes next, I find this to be quite a good episode. Nowhere near the best of even the first 2 seasons when there have been masterpieces like Duet, but the escalation from small character moments to an action-packed finale, along with the true introduction of the shadowy threat they've been teasing all season long, made for a very exciting hour of television.

Ian Meyers

Yeah as the initial commenter of that, it is totally more in line with Q Who than Best of Both Worlds. Must have been smoking the good crack when I left that comment, my bad. Or maybe I still am on crack because I still really like this episode (on par with Q Who for me)

Ca$hWednesday

You guys are probably going to get some flack for not loving this episode. Looking at this episode outside of the context of the entire show, it does just kind of seem like a set up episode, which it is to be fair. Behind the scenes, there was a bit of "changing of the guard" going on for the show runners, and they had to do some setup. Josh and Alex, I would love to hear your thoughts retroactively on this episode after the first episodes of the next season.

Matthew Ganz

This episode is nescessary.....but you'll figure it out soon enough......Eris words are true. You have no idea what's begun here today :)

Mark Chrisco

Speaking of Diane Duane. Sometime back at a convention I was sitting next to an attractive young woman who I began gently flirting with while waiting for the next presentation. Imagine my surprise when the moderator introduced Diane Duane as the next guest and my new friend excused herself and walked up on stage while at the same time, a guy sitting behind me started to snicker.

Cinedazed

For me this is an awkwardly disjointed episode that mixes cutesy sitcom stuff and space opera exposition in a way that doesn't totally gel. Knowing some of the great stuff it eventually leads to in future episodes does improve it for me on rewatch, but not to the extent that it does for seemingly most other viewers. That said there is some really good character bits throughout the episode, not just in the beginning, especially with what it does with Quark/Sisko and how Quark's skills tie into the final scene, making it a solid B for me. So I think I'm more or less on the same page as Josh on this one.

Captkirc

Don’t underestimate how much Alex will love *spoiler*. Not even going to allude to what *spoiler* is but you guys can probably figure it out

Deliximus

Your reaction is perfect. It's ok to compound the opinions!

Captkirc

Based on the astronomical amount of comments on this discussion and in the patron takes engagement on YouTube is going to be biblical

Comrade of Chaos

Forget what everyone else has said because they fall just short of making the correct point. The decision was made to use a Galaxy-class ship because at the time it represented Starfleet's best and biggest. There was no other class of ship that could match the power and presence of the Galaxy. And the point was to show the power of the Jem'Hadar, that they could so easily bring down our most powerful ships. It wasn't because they couldn't get the Enterprise or because she was busy that day or demanded too much money. It was to showcase Starfleet being brought to its knees by a tiny scout ship

Comrade of Chaos

And see I enjoy when I disagree with the guys. It opens the floor for discussion; I get to share why I loved it and they get to share why they didn't like it. And in the end we'll find some common ground in the middle, where I won't like it as much as I used to but they might like it more than they used to. If that's not something you enjoy then you might want to reconsider giving them your financial support Reading your comment again I'm not sure if you're talking to Alex and Josh or to the commenters who don't like their honest reactions

Ca$hWednesday

Nowhere near the same quality. This episode does an okay job of setting up next season, and while it has some cool moments, it's no way on the same level at BOBW.

Paul

100%. No matter how much you warn people, especially if they're in an emotionally sensitive mood because TA didn't react how they wanted them to, many people will spoil things unfortunately. Avoid YT comments on this video like the bubonic plague!

Ca$hWednesday

Please don't knock Ira Behr because of "Captain's Holiday". That was an anomaly.

Forbidden Donut

It's hard to say what they'll think, which is part of what makes their reactions so interesting. I love it when we overlap on opinions, but every so often they're going to zig when I zag, so to speak, and while that can at times be disappointing or frustrating, it can often also be interesting, and it does add a certain unpredictability to this whole journey. I thought this episode is closer to a B+ as well. I think it did a good job of establishing basically who the Jem'Hadar are, and when I first saw this episode (admittedly, I was still just a teenager) it elicited a reaction more along the lines of 'Whoa, this is new / serious, I wasn't expecting that'. But knowing how much more TV they've seen, and how much they value quieter character episodes, I can see how this didn't land very well with them, too.

ijp8834

Ok, gonna have to call out a lot of commenters here who are saying the Odyssey didn't put up a fight. It put up a hell of a fight. No shields, an it spend several minutes in combat getting absolutely battered. It's mission was a success and it was turning to retreat, having won the day. Then, and only then, did the Odyssey get destroyed, not by weapons fire, but due to a high speed impact of another starship hitting directly on it's secondary hull, right in the engineering spaces. She fought hard and she fought well, and if not for that suicide run would have made it home for repairs. The Odyssey was NOT there just because it shows that the Enterprise crew couldn't have done better. They literally could not because Odyssey succeeded in her mission. The Odyssey was there to show the Dominion don't care that you've won or are retreating, that they don't care about their own lives. As for it being a cheap copy... As someone who has spent time on real life warships, they all look the same from the outside. Nothing, other than hull numbers indicates one ship from another. I doubt anyone here could tell USS Nimitz from USS Eisenhower for example. In TNG, we saw USS Yamato, another Galaxy class, as well as many Excelsior class ships that were near identical to USS Excelsior, and several Ambassador class ships near identical to the USS Enterprise C. The Enterprise was one of 7 in the initial run. Now there are only 5 of those first run Galaxy class ships left.

SetsunaYuki

Whoever said this is the Best of Both Worlds for DS9, chill.

DaximiousCMV

Thank you, this is a comment I meant to put in the Takes but forgot to. I know it's not really something Alex and Josh care about, but it bothers me every time I see other people talk about the episode.

Scott B.

They explicitly have a line about disembarking all non-essential personnel, yes

Scott B.

Quark is only right because he literally doesn't see women as people, as he speaks literally half his planet is subject to what is essentially sex slavery. Rom literally bought his ex wife from her father. I find Quark's "good points" are almost always irreparably undermined by him being the messenger lol

StealthMomo

OMG. Yes, Starfleet is composed of all sorts of ships. But there is a 12 ship "battleship fleet" if you will (although not specifically for battle - the main mission was long-range exploration and policing existing Federation colonies), composed of same-class ships. In TOS it was the Constitution Class, in TNG it was the Galaxy Class. Starfleet had many other ship designs in use in both eras. But these were considered the vanguards of Starfleet. Admittedly much of my TNG views are extrapolation from what we have seen on screen. But my connection to and knowledge of TOS era ship deployment is spot on.

Ryan

I’m finding that on DS9 in particular, I’m having a really hard time separating individual episodes/seasons from the greater arc of the series. It was a lot easier for me on TNG to be like “Well of course this episode kinda sucks; it’s season 2.” Maybe it’s because DS9 leans so hard into that greater arc?

Summer

I know its heresy but while best of both worlds is good…..its not a fave so for me this is just a hair better almost but comparing the two is illogical

Strife

I agree with almost all of what you were going with because of your lack of full perspective but the criticism of Odyssey being the same as Enterprise is weird IMO. We have seen plenty of ships that are the same classes as other ships both in TOS and TNG. The models used are the same. There is no need for people to get bent out of shape about stuff like calling a ship the wrong name or anything because you are on a first watch but this thing is a precedent that has existed for 30 years in the franchise by the point you are seeing it. The point was that Starfleet sent their best ship class and they got ruined.

Tasha Yar's Positronic Vibrator

"My ship's falling apart, and they have weapons that penetrate straight through our shield. 5 more minutes."

CAC7141

The Galaxy-class starship (of which there were at least 6-12 built n Star Trek canon) is supposedly the finest/strongest (at this moment of time) type of ship in the fleet. They are the "flagships of the fleet. They used it in this episode to represent that even the "best" ship in the fleet can be destroyed by the Jem'Hadar... not because they had no budget to use another ship.

Ken R

The irony of Alex talking about a hivemind... "We don't like Balance Of Terror" "We watched it again, and now we both coincidentally like it!" Im sorry, this had to be one of the worst discussions ever when it comes to analysis and even taste. "I want an episode where hijinks ensue with camping, and maybe a badguy shows up and just as Quark is bending down to get lotion Sisko shoots the badguy who pops up" . This isn't an example of good writing, it is an example of bad sitcom writing and if anyone ever shoots such a scene it will probably star the late Don Knotts or Lou Costello courtesy of AI.

Trillhouse

One of the other reasons for the "overdoing" on this point is simply selection bias. This was one of the most heavily moderated Takes (and understandably so), with many other topics of discussion removed by the mods entirely. What remained was stuff that was spoiler free, with comments about the Odyssey being destroyed floating to the top. I'd hazard to guess that a lot fewer of the audience care about this than the comments make it out to be.

Numinous2019

I agree about the awkwardness. Possibly that was due to budget limitations and possibly due to.......well I can't elaborate for now. Quark is giving a meta commentary to Sisko on the original creation of the Ferengi by Roddenberry (to show how far his 24th Century humanity had come). Here we get a 'reality check' curtesy of the species that was supposed to offer us a most favorable contrast to.

Aaron Wells

This was not the episode for squealing, whining, bug ointment smearing, TNG-style-Ferengi goofball antics. Quark should not have been in this episode. Nog...OK, but only if he's on his best behavior and not LITERALLY SQUEALING like a pig. Very cool, bringing in the Federation's heaviest capital ship in the the USS Odyssey, and then blowing it up to legitimize the threat of the Dominion. But the silly, cringy, ridiculously facepalm and annoying Ferengi antics are entirely disjointed in what should have been a heavy episode with a serious tone. The insistence on the part of many TV and film writers to include the accursed notion of "comic relief" where it is absolutely not needed is always infuriating. Should have been an A. But yeah...low C, on account of latex ears.

Numinous2019

Did anyone organise a betting pool related to at what time Josh & Alex would ask: "Is this what they're doing for a season finale?"

Aaron Wells

The Odyssey stuck around and fought, despite being outnumbered and facing new weapons they had no defense against. Can't complain about that.

Numinous2019

I completely, absolutely, irrefutably disagree that 'The Neutral Zone' was 'good', 'adequate', 'acceptable', or anything besides a rushed script under difficult production circumstances. It is the single worst formal season finale I can think of in ST. I don't count 'Shades Of Grey' as a finale, because I refuse to acknowledge it exists.

Aaron Wells

I think at this point, 8 years deep in the construction program, it was more like 10-12 Galaxy class ships commissioned. Those 4, at least 3 of them, were already in operation at the start of TNG.

Phantom Lake Games

This episode is difficult for me to judge cause I watched Season 2 after Season 3 and 4 so I only ever knew this episode in the context of what comes after. As such, I have positive feelings towards it, but first time reactions like this let me shift my perspective which is nice now that I’m on my 5th watch through of the show.

Aaron Wells

When I think of an established workhorse of the fleet, I think of the Excelsior class. We see a dozen of them throughout the show. They've been around since the end of the Kirk era, and have been upgraded over the years, but are nearing the end of their service span. I think of the Galaxy class as something meant to gradually replace the more practical Excelsior in a relatively peaceful environment....but then the Borg happened, among other things...leading to the Galaxy class being a bit too unwieldy...

Scarpad’s Domain

What's to understand the glaxy class is the best Trek Has so if you want to make the new baddie really bad have them destroy starfleet's best

Loot Narsbaar

More and more I think Alex is right. They do mess up the little things in this one. Too much over explaining, and LOL at showing "The Peaceful Station" and "Enterprise dupe." While over all I do like the episode, I don't think it's one of the greats and I understand why it can come off flat. 1) The two disjointed plots don't gel, 2) Our characters aren't really the ones in danger, its the mostly unseen ones on the Odyssey. I can't get it out of my head that this is a fake Enterprise on rewatch. I think many Trek fans reacted the way Josh did back when it first aired. That's why the ratings dropped off so much for season 3. Also, you make a great point of how using the stock footage from the Pilot/Birthright takes the viewer out of the show because we already KNOW that's really the Enterprise and not the Odyssey

Aaron Wells

Of note about the real life USS Enterprise: In the US Navy there have been 8 ships named Enterprise, going all the way back to the 1700s. The most famous of which was the Yorktown Class aircraft carrier that distinguished itself and was made famous for its service during WW2 (20 Battle Stars! She was a beast!)...in fact Roddenberry named Kirk's Enterprise after that ship. Then came the Nimitz Class USS Enterprise, the first nuclear powered carrier. Only recently decommissioned. Under construction right now is the new Ford Class aircraft carrier USS Enterprise, which will launch in a couple of years. In the US Navy, and in Starfleet, there is always an Enterprise...

Loot Narsbaar

Yeah The Neutral Zone may have been "Season One Good," but it's a dog even compared to this.

Skye Maidstone

I'm starting to think you're just not gonna like DS9. TNG has so many mediocre episodes throughout it's run that got A/B. Yet DS9 does great season climax and you're like "meh". Each to their own.

Loot Narsbaar

Behr also wrote Yesterday's Enterprise and his beard wasn't blue during the DS9 years

Skye Maidstone

I always forget some people prefer TNG to DS9 (or even prefer VOY or TOS). I think Josh and Alex are gonna prefer TNG over the others by this point. Personally DS9 will always remain the best space sci-fi series to grace tv (Expanse season 1-3 come close).

Numinous2019

Guys, I don't think you understand the realities of end of season TV shows. You can't end season 1 on 'Duet', because it's too downbeat, too small scale in its implications and also doesn't prime an audience for a season 2. Same reason you can't end TOS season 1 with 'City On The Edge Of Forever'. 'In The Hands Of The Prophets' established wider story threads, as does 'The Jem'Hadar' (irrespective of their relative success in doing so). If you end on a small character piece.....the excursion Sisko & Quark take into the Gamma Quadrant.....then what is the show saying to the audience?

Naglfarius

Somehow... Emperor Gates returned. ( B- Episode )

Aaron Wells

This is an example of why being willfully and proudly dismissive of the technical side of this Star Trek thing is self-defeating. Without an understanding that the Galaxy Class is a CLASS OF SHIP, and therefor nearly identical, the importance to the narrative and the thematic value of the loss of the USS Odyssey is completely missed...and instead of the significance of it...it gets dismissed as cheap duplicate of the Enterprise for production reasons. Instead of "Sweet! A Galaxy Class! A capital ship! A heavy cruiser! Starfleet isn't dicking around!" its...."Oh, a cheap knockoff, because all Federation ships are for some reason entirely unique instead of organized into different classes." The Klingons, the Cardassians, the Romulans etc...also use very similar looking classes of ships. They aren't all unique individual designs. There are hundreds of them. They are built in series.

Cyranor

USS Enterprise CVN-65 was the only one of its class, kind of a proof of concept of nuclear powered air craft carrier. The Nimitz class was built on what they learned from the Big E.

HeatheЯ

Let's fucking go!!!

Timur Nersesov

I have been eager for this point all season. Watching this episode as a 14 yo, it absolutely blew my mind. A villain was introduced that not only made the main cast feel weak, but kamikazed a Galaxy class starship, and we finally got more details on this Dominion thing. And the Jem'Hadar in this episode had swagger, arrogance for miles. This was the "aha" episode for me with DS9...I couldn't wait for the summer to end so I could see what this Dominion thing was all about. Especially with TNG just ending, this episode kept me Trek buzzed. Altho I will say I appreciated the Bajoran stories much more on a rewatch as an adult than as a teen.

Pixels At Dawn

I think Josh nailed it on the head - this is very much a "Part 1" to the series that come afterwards. Watched on its own it's an OK episode, but most of what makes it better is the rewatch quality. I do like the character moments with Quark and Sisko a lot, I enjoyed the Odyssey destruction a lot too, but overall it's a lot of groundwork-laying. Solid C.

Loot Narsbaar

Not excusing the episode, but the writers were told to shake the show up because the audience thought the character stuff was boring

Strife

That is like saying that because Enterprise is a galaxy class ship it was dumb that the Borg cube cut it to effing pieces in Q Who. There are a variety of different power levels of species in Star Trek. Starfleet is pretty high up there but there are also times that Enterprise was left barely hanging on in TNG and survived purely because the species at hand ended up not being bloodthirsty or the crew outsmarted a very bad situation.

Ken R

I'm a little confused about the Ship discussion. Every Starship looks alike, always have, always will. We've known this going all the way back to TOS where I think we even had a shot of four ships in formation to battle the M5.

River Acheron

As utterly unbelievable as it is, yes...Voyager is actually some people's favorite Trek. It's also beloved by people who have never actually watched other Treks. (My ex bf being one) I do not debate people anymore on this, because I learned a long time ago that debates do not work. No one's opinion gets changed. And that's okay! It's like how some people actually like Michael Bay's horror remakes. I don't agree with it, Hell I don't even understand it lol, but no one is wrong in what they like. :)

River Acheron

There's nothing wrong with a blue beard. :) My hair is currently purple. Next it will probably be lime green.

Aaron Wells

Absolutely. My mistake. They were contemporaries, and very similar. So I mentally tend to group them both together.

Jeff Cornell

I think there's some selection bias in those Patron Takes, and there's an over-representation of people fanboying about how this episode sets up later stories by properly introducing the Dominion. Calling it DS9's "Best of Both Worlds" is absolutely insane. This episode is only okay. Don't worry. You'll love the show. People holding up this episode as if it's a good representation of DS9's strengths are just wrong.

Caleramaen

There's just a huge amount of tonal whiplash in this episode. I do appreciate that everyone is just doing normal things and then BAM, bad guys out of nowhere. I think it is a good reflection of how the Federation has treated the Gamma Quadrant so far, but maybe not the best basis for an episode. Still a good episode, but I can see where it feels like the rug has been pulled out from underneath you.

Loot Narsbaar

I think another problem of this episode is the special effects just don't deliver in what's supposed to be the climax of the episode. The Enterprise Dupe is just lying there paused on the screen as it gets rammed. It looks weird. It's destruction doesn't look half as good as those in Contagion or Cause and Effect. I think deep down someone knew this because the remastered version looks just awesome. It's a trillion times better. Would probably elevate this episode from a C+ to a B on it's own.

Raphael Gaytan

Josh and Alex will like DS9. But nothing will ever compare to the warm hearth of the Enterprise-D. Remember, they once made the comment that Enterprise-D is their happy place. I feel the same way. And speaking from my own perspective, as much as I do enjoy DS9, the TNG characters are family. This is why TNG got feature films. This is why TNG got the digital transfer treatment. 👍

Numinous2019

I think a lot of us here are holding their enthusiasm for 'Melora' in reserve for the right moment......

Loot Narsbaar

I see both sides to this. The complaints about the classes of ship looking the same don't land for me because it's established every space faring power has classes of ships that are cookie cutter. HOWEVER, because they were forced(?) to be cheap there's nothing cinematically to distinguish the Odyssey from the Enterprise. This is compounded by using THE SAME STOCK FOOTAGE for the Enterprise docking at DS9. I saw those episodes so when I see this my brain can't help but think "Fake Enterprise." Had they done what was done with the Yamato (we can see the unique registry number for instance, shot differently etc) in TNG I think it would have gone a long way to distinguish the two.

Numinous2019

Ironically Alex and Josh loathed 'Captain's Holiday', yet Alex (as far as I can tell anyway) is advocating for something broadly similar here!!!

llama

you boys need any icyhot after these reaches?

Joe Concepts

That's of course the biggest problem with Ferengi society, its treatment of women. And I'm not saying their culture is good or anything. Just that Quark is right about them being looked down on by Sisko and others.

Spencer Loften

I knew some shit was going down in the comments when I saw that ratio.

Captkirc

In a parallel universe someone is upset Alex spoiled Infinity War

Derek Locke

Damn!!! I don't WANT to wait 'till January!!! LOL

Josh Mariota

I really admire Armin Shimmerman's (Quark) acting. The part where he scolds Sisko with Earth's morbid past. And at the end where he puffs his chest and boldly utters, "we're better." I always get goosebumps listening to that.

Derek Locke

Exactly. We saw at least 2 other Galaxy Class ships in Next Generation. We saw ships identical to the Enterprise in TOS. Naval ships of today are mass produced and given different names. Strange thing to gripe about.

Derek Locke

C, that's crazy! After watching this episode for the first time, I was finally excited about what came next for DS9.

Doug

Voyager isn't my favorite series, but it was the first ST series I watched and it's basically my comfort show

paultardspambot .

it was six, with six more under construction when the show started, pedantic I know

paultardspambot .

true, at least their not like one of those youtubers who fake cries about how great things are or claims the're seeing things for the first time when thats obviously not true. I do worry Alex especially may not like DS9 becasue of the scope

paultardspambot .

if i recall the Shatnerverse leans heavily into stuff in DS9 that would be spoilers at this point

Derek Locke

Ah well... This reaction is proof that Josh and Alex can be wrong, just like the rest of us! :)

paultardspambot .

I know a lot about them if you have any questions

Brer

You see for me I find it continually baffling how much hype ds9 has online, tng is my favourite but I prefer voyager and even half of enterprise to ds9. I just don't like any of the characters that much other than O'Brien and I'm one of the people who think star TREK should involve TREKKING through the stars, I could never get behind the stationary setting (which b5 does better + why wouldn't the federation build a new bespoke station rather than continue to use an ugly unwieldy hand me down from an enemy??? Half the premise makes no sense) The show does get better from here but there are still so many off-putting things about this show to come for me but I dare not spoil here

BN13

For me, that moment came early in season 3, but not here.

Doug

I don't mean to be one of those guys but all Galaxy class ships look just like the Enterprise, all those other ships you see in TNG were different classes. The Galaxy is the biggest, baddest ship the Federation has. Other Galaxy class ships showed up in TNG, like the one that was destroyed by that computer virus in season 1 or 2.

Jonathan Llyr

Hey Alex - I know you’re going through all the stages of grief because TNG has ended but you’ve got a few weeks here to get that out of your system and then you’ll be able to love again. 😉

River Acheron

I get it. And look I go against the grain too. I have made no secret in the past that I do not agree with many aspects of Gene's vision and I do not love TOS (of course there are some individual episodes I like). There's too many references to god and even Jesus once, and I totally get that was the network forcing those references in, but TO ME, it doesn't stand the test of time. Yes I actually watched TOS last (not counting the very new Treks), so that may have tainted my perception? Had I watched it first, things may have been different. But as it stands, it's not high on my list. (it's not as bad as Voyager though!) But also, I am not a fan of 60's TV. Aside from Twilight Zone but thats a class by itself!

HeatheЯ

I was SO excited to get to this point, lol. But after watching their reaction I thought about how it's virtually impossible for me to watch S1 and 2 of DS9 objectively. DS9 is my favorite TV Series but I didn't start watching it until maybe S4? And after the show ended I was really excited to see where it all began and yeah, it's a little rough but I have a great time with the earlier seasons. Looking backwards I think this episode is a perfect setup for S3 with a lot of nuance and character interactions. Sure there could have been some tweaks with this ep, but overall the writers set S3 up brilliantly. Something I haven't seen anyone talking about is the metaphor, the imagery of blowing up a galaxy class star ship that looks exactly like The Enterprise. Basically the writers saying, we're moving forward. Get prepared, we're going to do something different. We're not TNG.

brqby

Have faith. The series gets much better.

Roy J.

I dont get it either. They never caught on that each Excelsior or Oberth class in TNG was the same model? Or each Romulan warbird looked the same? They are the same class of ship and built with the same blueprint and specs. I mean ofc it’s cheaper to reuse the same model for filming each time but even then… this stuff happens irl too. You’re not going to reinvent the wheel over and over again when you already have something that works for a given task or mission. There are going to be a lot more galaxy classes in DS9 🫣 hope they wont have a fit over that…

Paul

What I am most surprised about in this reaction is not the reaction at all, but that people are surprised TA didn't absolutely gush over this? It's a solid episode if you love character moments AND "the plot" for its own sake, but generally speaking, Josh and especially Alex are most fond of moments that elicit intense emotions, could be humor, could be melancholy. Excitement too sure, which usually stems from crazy things happening to OUR characters, the ones we've grown to know and love. This episode for me is probably in the A tier due to context, but on its own, high B tier is about right. And you know what? The single biggest improvement imo would have been to introduce the Odyssey and its crew a few episodes ago. Make us know the humans on the ship that was so wickedly kamikazed into. The only complaint, as others have mentioned, that doesn't make sense, is that the Odyssey is a copy of the Enterprise, well yeah, it's a Galaxy Class ship. They all are more or less the same design. The whole purpose was to evoke horror; a flagship template of Starfleet was so easily destroyed... Still, this point has been beaten to death here in the comments lol. Last note, regarding exposition, as long as the conversation sounds organic enough, it doesn't bother me at all, even if the characters aren't doing anything (and there's a reason they aren't in this case being trapped in a cell). It makes full sense that Sisko would try to gather as much knowledge from this unknown female alien about their captors. But this isn't a big deal, I can see how expository scenes like this might pull you out of it.

Ken R

It sounded to me like picking nits. Nowhere is 60 years of ST has it ever been implied every ship has a unique design. I guess the assembly line is still a thing in the 23rd century.

Roy J.

I doubt that having them go “Fuck em, they’re on their own. Lets get the F out of here!” would’ve worked even remotely. Besides the Jem’hadar weren’t there to fuck around but to send a clear message. I think the suicide run was due to time/budget constraints but they would’ve destroyed the Odyssey nonetheless.

Trent Bowles

I don't think there's a chance in hell DS9 isn't their favorite by the time they're done. Everything they enjoyed in TNG were things DS9 just does better. The things TNG excelled at were things Alex and Josh were lukewarm about. I'm legitimately surprised they enjoyed TNG as much as they did. They already like DS9 better than most did after 2 seasons. As much as I enjoy those first seasons looking back, they're made enjoyable by knowing how those characters and storylines develop later on. On its own, Seasons 1 and 2 are just...boring. The fact that they were able to pull so many positives bodes very well for the rest of their journey.

HeatheЯ

Yeah, Shimmerman's, really everyone's timing in this episode is impeccable.

Gavin Hewitt

Personally, this IS bad side of watching in release order, you're still on a downer of the TNG finale, objectively I think this is a A-/B+ easily

Numinous2019

That link leads to a 'This video is no longer available' screen.

Roy J.

Fans generally love (or keep in high regard) this episode not because it’s an A or even an S but because of what it sets up. The reveal and the threat it poses. The Jem’hadar aren’t your typical alien of the week but part of something far bigger and more threatening. The Dominion basically made it clear they own the gamma quadrant, which is right next door to the station and they don’t like it when you step into their yard. They’re not what you’d call nice neighbors 😬

Raphael Gaytan

Sounds like total bullshit to me. The Borg were scary. Not these fools.

Tim b

I never considered blowing up a galaxy class ship as a copout or anything. The point here is that it's the most powerful type of ship starfleet has, not that it looks like the Enterprise D.

River Acheron

Agreed, Trent. I do believe that DS9 will be their favorite Trek. But even if it isn't, even if they hated it, I would never hold it against them. This is why i dont get upset when they don't like fan-favorites. Some people actually take it personally. Other YouTube reactors as well. (The horror community can be seething! lol) But I have been in their shoes. I have been yelled at for not liking things the majority of people do. I can't stand Wrath of Khan and some people actually take it personally! My argument is ANYthing would look good after The Motion(less) Picture. I don't get what's so ground breaking. I thought Casablanca is overrated and in terms of horror, I can't stand the Halloween franchise (I know...sacrilege!) So I see these reactions as a new way of looking at a show via different perspectives. It interests me when someone has an opinion different from my own. :) I adore The Shining and if someone tells me they hate it, I would be interested! I'd say, "Oh, okay. Please....tell me why! I'm curious." I wouldn't be offended because as I always say....I didn't make the damn movie. It doesn't offend me. lol

Loot Narsbaar

No. That looks bizarre. I'm talking about the movie Behr made a few years back.

Altariel

No DS9 for a whole month? I guess I wasted my money on the subscription then. 😐 See you in a month I guess... 😒

Summer

I guess some feel about this reaction the way you felt about the episode “wait….you are leaving us here….”

Summer

They will do Trek specials, but others will be midway through season 3, seeing the tier lists for the seasons would have given us a pause. But it is a bit sad.

Tim b

I guess this episode is kind of a worse case scenario for TA, because it sets up exactly the kind of episode they like only to suddenly switch to big epic space opera. For me that's a cool curveball, but for them it's betrayal.

Timur Nersesov

I think I have a theory after this review...A+J don't get invested in the universe the same way...and this might be a generational thing. In the 90's many of us were DYING to know as much as possible about the ST universe. The zeitgeist of how audiences engage with properties and stories now is different than it was in the time of little sci fi, much more written sci fi, and hard to engage fandoms. The Odyssey blowing up was a big deal precisely because it was a look outside the narrow scope of the TNG and DS9 show. Many of us older sci fi fans are into the sci fi way more than into the character stuff, on balance.

Nolan

Alright, this reaction wasn't SO bad. Personally, I like the episode just fine, and it really made me want to watch the next season, but then I ALSO had known things about DS9 ahead of time, but I also admit it's not S-tier either. I will say this, I get the impression Alex didn't vibe with this more because of what the episode wasn't, than what it was. Like, there's a lot of pre-concieved notions at play in here, based off of past experience and a couple incorrect facts, mostly regarding Ira Behr or model reuses. Twice the episode set him up for big things he personally wanted, but rug-pulled him. First with an all camping episode, then with the Galaxy appearance. If I had to guess, both of those are what soured him. As for "the plot" showing up, I will say that because I know you guys are fans of "Seinfeld," a show famously about nothing - where it's ALL character interplay and very rarely external threats to the characters - the reason "Seinfeld" is famous for being that is because it was the ONLY show doing that at the time. And Seinfeld, TNG, DS9 and VOY all ran at the same time. So I'm not saying solely character-focused episodes with no plot WON'T happen, just that it's gonna be a lot rarer than you might think because that wasn't standard practice at the time. So maybe temper your expectations of that kind of episode showing up, so you're not as disappointed when The Plot shows up, and instead be glad of what you get of the character work going on around the plot instead. Especially in such a "high-concept" show where often the plot of the week IS the point. Another thing to point out as wry irony is that, when you initially watch TOS, you discussed having to change your mindset towards more self-contained, episodic TV. DS9 is now asking you to start adjustiing that dial back towards the other way, bit by bit. I do find your response to this similar to your reaction to the BSG S1 finale. Noting it was a lot of set up for the next season. But you guys also addressed WHY TV season finale's are often like this right at the start of the video when discussing your own upcoming hiatus - viewer retention. "Please don't go!" TV shows wanna make sure the audience is gonna come back, set up something so they tune back in three months later for what happens next. That is what the episode is. And based on those merits, divorced from any expectations of crossovers or previous exoerience with the writer, I think it did what it set out to do well enough, IMO.

Loot Narsbaar

either the best or worst time to pause

Aaron Wells

Pedantry and fandom go hand in hand. You should hear the comic book guys practically come to blows over a single text bubble in a special edition that was published 50 years ago...

Nolan

I do think the episode does more setup than you may realize. Yes, Eris had a long description of her past and the Dominion, but her almost ghost story around the camp fire-esque tale inside the force field speaks of an almost anti-Federation. One that usurps and conquers entrants - largely for resources it sounds like, rather than the peaceful, diplomatic Federation. It has a dedicated race of soldiers, willing to win at the cost of their own lives, unlike the Federation who has ships of scientists and explorers mixed in with their military. And then we have Quark, talking about how war-like humanity used to be, and practicing in slave trade, calling the humans of the Federation's past barbaric. And what's the contrast? The Dominion, so much like the Federation, but warlike, and enslaving entire planets, if Eris is to be believed. All this iis quite thematic, tied deftly into the character work of Quark and Sisko butting heads, but ultimately working together and appreciating each other's contributions in getting out of that situation. At the start of the episode Sisko was annoyed by Quark and didn't really want to be around him, by the end, Sisko and Quark are standing side-by-side confronting the spy and defending their station - growth. Though I still doubt Sisko will let Quark advertise on the Station monitors.

Altariel

They'll do TNG specials as I understand it, and I'm not interested in those.

Altariel

Unfortunately it's not possible to pause for me, it's just wasted money.

Altariel

It's great acting, but I feel Quark is being a hypocrite here. They have all of their women enslaved, and we have seen aggressive Ferengi. Quark isn't even able to see and accept the flaws in his own culture, and that's why his criticism of mankind doesn't land.

Altariel

I'm not sure that telling them they'll surely love the the show isn't setting too high expectations for them... given how much they seem to love TNG, maybe DS9 isn't really their thing... 🤔

Summer

Completely unrelated, the cat is adorable

Rich Loga

I was almost as excited to see this reaction as I was to see the TNG finale reaction and it seems like every time I’m excited for an episode or movie they end up hating it 🤣

Ian Westcott

I think at this point Alex might be a little bit of a masochist. :-D Or else he actually cares a little too much and this got him pretty nervous.

Rich Loga

I will say that I guess I do see their point, I know what comes next, I know what this episode sets up, they don’t have a clue what they are in for!!

Ian Westcott

Rewatching both TNG and DS9 20-30 years than when I watched as a kid, I realize my watching priorities have changed. Before I really was into the battles, the special effects, OMG, a changeling cool! And now I like the relationships, the changes from episode to episode, the strong and glorious personalities and how these characters come into their own. As a result, my current tier list for a season looks very much different than the tier lists from decades ago..

Doctor Pulaski

This was my favorite scene of this episode

Jill Barker

I love this episode. I am becoming increasingly disappointed and frustrated that you seem to have no interest in general sci fi plots , the technology or sci-fi including the ships . Star Trek has always been credited with launching the careers of so many notable scientists, astronomers ,engineers and astronauts because of its devotion to detail. Why are you comparing a 30 year old TV programme to recent multi million dollar movie franchises? This is unreasonable and unrealistic. You also seem to get bees in your bonnet over trivial issues .

Jill Barker

I would also point out that destroying a galaxy class starship The Odyssey with its hundreds of crew was horrific to those of us watching at the time. It scared us to death to know that this enemy was so brutal and would be coming through the wormhole to make war against the Federation. Just like the introduction to the Borg, this was an enemy with massively superior capabilities. You may have been underwhelmed by this episode but it terrified us.

Josh’s Hairy Forearms

It is wild for them to complain about season finales and not have acomplete understanding of how they are structured and what their overall purpose is, then in rhen next breath say they are going on a break until after the holidays……

BN13

Watching their reaction though, I kind of wish now that we did get a full episode that was just them camping, and then an episode like this that was just the big bad setup. I like both. But yeah, for them, they got rug pulled from the episode they actually wanted.

Shanelle

QUESTION FOR DISCUSSION - Does Starfleet/Bajor/any Alpha quadrant inhabitant have the right to explore and colonize in the Gamma quadrant or is the Dominion within their rights to establish boundaries?

Shanelle

Jadzia seemed confident no one should or could stop them from exploring

lowkee120

I wouldn't call this the DS9 version of Best of Both Worlds. Disappointing that it didn't live up to your expectations, but I've long since learned to expect the unexpected with you guys. Not everyone likes the same things so...

lowkee120

Same. There's a time for that, but this wasn't it.

Trekkie74205

For those disappointed with this reaction or others. You shouldn’t take it so seriously. You can’t be upset if someone doesn’t love the same episode you do. Maybe you were paying closer attention to episodes and got more out of them. The guys make jokes/talk over 20% of each episode. Even with subtitles, it is impossible to perform a joke, laugh, and absorb plot points simultaneously. It can’t be fun to get hundreds of comments with the same explanations or pointing out the same missed details. It seems to go both ways. There is rarely a reaction lately that doesn’t include a dig at Patrons. Maybe the break in episode reactions will be a good reset.

BN13

Despite what it is, I actually really like The Neutral Zone. I enjoy it more than Time's Arrow or Descent. Then again I'm an anomaly as I actually really enjoy most of season 1 as a whole. There are certain things that season 1 actually did very well that the show never bothered to explore again.

Trekkie74205

That is interesting. Would The Federation be ok with having The Dominion explore or colonize its territory?

BN13

They want Seinfeld in Space.

BN13

This reminds me of my grandma always having her weird grandma-isms for things.

Forbidden Donut

Once the territory is known to belong to another power/empire/whatever, they should respect the boundaries IMO.

Loot Narsbaar

The Gamma quadrant is in dispute. The Dominion thinks they own the entire quadrant. They've stolen land from at least two species we know about. Their claim over the entire quadrant is only recognized by themselves.

Doug

It's not a generational thing. I'm the same age as them and I am very big into the sci fi aspects of the show, as well as everyone else I know that watches it

JordanK1991

Unlike most viewers, I have come to think that the Federation is actually the aggressor in this instance. Going by this episode, it seems as though the Dominion feels threatened by these repeated Federation incursions into their claimed space. The Klingons/Federation/Romulans would feel exactly the same way if a foreign power were setting up listening posts and sending ships into their space.

Doug

I agree with this and it made me sad to learn that Voyager is starting so soon. I think it's really unfortunate that DS9 will never get the chance to stand on its own, and I think TNG is given a lot of leeway because it was the only show for so long. I feel like I have a very different view of DS9 because I watched it all together instead of bouncing back and forth between it and other shows, same with TNG and Voyager. None of those shows colored my view of the other because I never had to come down off a great episode on one to a weaker one of another.

BN13

I'm starting to wonder if TA and the fans have the same thing in mind when the fans say "DS9 is all about the characters." Yes, like TNG, there is a lot of great character stuff, and our characters have a lot more to go through here than in TNG. But I think the main reason why people like DS9 is the grand scope, epicness, world building, space opera stories, and complex interspecies politics that we're seeing the beginnings of here. It's definitely not Seinfeld in space. Still, looking forward to see how the boys react to it all. Will they hate it or love it? That remains to be seen.

Deliximus

Agreed. Spent that summer wondering how the heck they are going to overcome this huge theatre.

Aaron Wells

I've got to disagree here. I think this is the best looking destruction of a galaxy class. A direct impact with another ship that trashes 1/3 of the stardrive section? And then a piece of debris flies up and takes out the bussard collector on the starboard nacelle... And then the whole thing blows up in a nice chunky explosion with a big chunky section of the saucer flying towards the screen... Looked pretty good to me for 1990s network television...

Aaron Wells

It's okay. We are all that guy. That's why we're here. 😆

Aaron Wells

An entire episode of listening to Quark complaining and Nog squealing like a pig? Nah. I want Sisko's jambalaya recipe though.

Aaron Wells

I've said it before. Marvel has destroyed an entire generation of viewers. I was there. I watched it too. Simple plots where everything is explained up front and then plays out, interspersed with comic relief every few seconds, on a cadence, like a corporate clock. The Winter Soldier was a fantastic movie though.

Aaron Wells

I think it's a similar problem with the BSG remake. That show is not funny. It's not going to get funny. There isn't going to be a happy ending. It's more about the destruction of characters and relationships than the building of them. It's dark, and it themes are intensely science fiction. It's just not the right show. Star Trek is quite a bit brighter. Quite a bit more levity. Obviously DS9 has that darker, more realistic tone compared to something like TNG, which is downright whimsical a lot of the time. But it's still Star Trek enough.

Millenial_Manc

I hadn’t watched this for years and years, and remembered it being far better than it is. The messing about with quark and nog at the start was so lethargic. I remember how shocking it was at the time to suicide run a galaxy class, but watching it now, it’s only shocking to see Joe Biden in the captain’s chair, in looks, charisma and leadership capabilities. His first officer was the worst actor in DS9 so far too. What the hell was that. And that stupid little bridge that looked like they couldn’t be arsed getting more set pieces out of storage. The only thing it did well was set up the Jem Hadar as a superior force, like the Borg were on their first encounter.

BN13

Yeah from what I've studied of psychology and personality theories, it isn't really a generational thing, but it is a personality archtype thing. Certain types of personalities are big picture people. They really like getting invested into the world building and the entire universe of a show, and all of the sci-fi stuff. Other types thiugh don't really care about that stuff at all and prefer just parts of the larger whole like the humor, cinematography or character drama. I've referred to this before as N types vs S Types. I'd say most Star Trek fans fall into the former, while TA and most non-Star Trek fans. fall into the later. And yes, both types tend to annoy the hell out of each other because they differ greatly in terms of what they consider to be the most important. And yeah, on top of this, your taste in terms of what interests you most about a show will mature over time from simple to more complex. For instance, I notice a lot of psychology and trauma stuff in this show now, and just a lot of human behavior stuff in general that I never would have noticed or understood as a kid. In fact, as a kid, one of my favorite episodes was Masks, along with most of the lackluster season 7 episodes just because they were easy for me to understand and follow. Stuff like The Drumhead and Chain of Command were way too dark for me and went over my head. Now that I'm older, my preferences have totally flipped there, but that's just due to gaining more life experience.

#MaxwellDidNothingWrong

That's it. Glorious Season 2 is over. It's all down hill from here. Don't get me wrong, there's some cool ass shit down in the valley, but we won't ever quite be season two ever again.

#MaxwellDidNothingWrong

It's the same as when the new alien of the week bodies Worf so you're forced to take them seriously. Cheap and lazy.

Strife

I think they seem underwhelmed because they seem to care as much about the character moments as they don’t care about the world building. You need to care about the world building to feel the implication of Dax mentioning the Odyssey families staying behind on DS9. You need to remember the crew compliment of Enterprise is just over 1000 and that a few hundred are civilians. Thats a lot of dead starfleet crew. The show had also left breadcrumbs about the Bajoran colony in several other episodes. We have seen new colonies before in other shows. They number in the hundreds or thousands. As much as the guys complain about the episode spelling things out they didn’t connect a lot of dots on things the episode left in the background other than a comment about Jake’s conscience because he wanted to do a science project. The Dominion planned the whole thing. They were waiting for a starfleet vessel and they got one. Jake and his dad had nothing to do with it. They just happened to be the ones who were being used to get a spy back to DS9. On this rewatch I definitely saw things I’d change but IMO the reaction was one of the rougher ones.

Jonathan

This is an episode of Star Trek I vividly remember watching live because it aired the day OJ Simpson was having his slow motion police chase and I wasn’t sure I’d get to watch DS9. Then the episode starts and I’m thinking season finale and the great TNG finale events, Borg attack Earth, Klingon Civil War, Lore, Borg and evil Data, and with this we get a camping trip. A fun episode but not a finale then the events from seeing a ship as big as the Enterprise destroyed and the reality we have a new big bad in addition to our others and then you are wondering all summer are they doing something big or is this going to go away in the premiere. It did meet my requirement for a finale which is big consequential stuff has to happen, but this is my 2nd least favorite finale of this series.

reactive1

I agree with you 100% about the metaphor of blowing up a ship that looks exactly like the Enterprise and that’s exactly what occurred to me when I first saw this.

captveg

I would say it's a trope that at the time was generally effective, but it's now so well established and overused as a shorthand that modern viewers see through it more.

reactive1

The Stargazer was a Constellation class (those have the four nacelles - two on top and two on bottom).

Strife

The camping as presented had definitely just about run its course. I actually like the tonal whiplash. Sometimes bad things just happen when you least expect them

reactive1

Most of the time, the guys negativity and cynicism doesn’t bother me, but this one was a little much. Maybe it is a good time for a break.

captveg

I get the muted reaction as it really is an episode that sacrifices itself to the exposition gods to a large degree for the future of the show. Sometimes laying the groundwork is just not as exciting, as many chapters at the 1/4th mark of many great novels show. I'd put this in that camp, and it's hurt a little by the "have the new threat beat up the strongest hero" trope with the Galaxy Class ship, which played better in 1994 when the trope was less familiar and overused for general audiences. Also - I promise you'll come to appreciate Ira Steven Behr.

Nolan

While it sucks you guys didn't vibe with this episode, this reaction is fine. I see why you felt the way you did, and it's NOT because all ships of a class look the same.

THE LORE!!!

They don't, but let me pose this. I've introduced DS9 to about a half dozen people that weren't all that interested otherwise. Every single one was excited to start s3 immediately after watching this one, some insisting we put it on right then and there. They had no idea what comes next either but they could see the potential and appreciated it for what it was. I'm cool with Alex and Josh not digging the episode, but if I remember correctly, they both said that after watching it, they weren't excited to jump into s3 and I can see why that would be a bummer. I've just never seen that attitude before and my guess is a lot of other people haven't either.

captveg

I love how in their wild speculations they were sometimes somewhat close to what comes and other times hilariously off. Though I would have loved to see some of their suppositions actually happen on the show!

captveg

Cool down period recommendation: Shatner's 2 Trek related SNL sketches when hosting in 1986, and Stewart's Trek related SNL sketch when hosting in 1994.

Some Guy

ALL HANDS ABANDON SHIP

THE LORE!!!

The reason I rate it highly is because I've gotten a fair amount of people into the show and most of them could hardly wait to start s3 after this. It's a feeling I had myself when it was airing! We all heard about the Dominion all throughout the season and then showed up and weren't a disappointment. I think people put too much stake on knowing what comes next as the sole reason why this episode is liked.

Captkirc

I disagree because DS9 is uniquely situated for Characters to thrive. Necessary Evil and Duet for example are dark as hell but also wouldn’t be nearly as good without the world building and Josh and Alex loved both. All that grand stuff DS9 does put these characters in a position to shine. IMO it’s really hard even as a massive fan to say I’d love this series if it ended after season 2. It’s cliched to say but the really good stuff is yet to come. As an aside this kind of massive engagement is great for TA to grow its audience. The amount of comments about this episode is mind blowing

Numinous2019

I disagree. The Dominion is expansionist in nature and not through diplomacy. The Dominion were not set up coherently at this point, so the season 2 writing failed to inform the audience properly. This led to mistaken beliefs that the Dominion were threatened.

Numinous2019

BN13, I do understand that point of view and (while I personally can't share it) I do accept that TNG season 1 is not a 'wasteland'. It was compromised by behind the scenes problems and the real difficulty of launching a show that would be immediately compared to TOS and the 6 movies. I'm not going to put down anyone who likes it and gets something worthwhile from it.

Avaria

It's maybe one of the biggest differences between 90's TV and current TV. Rather than looking to round off a particular story you'd been telling or putting a button on the growth of certain characters, the emphasis was much more on giving the audience something to chew on during the hiatus from Memorial Day to Labor Day until the show came back. Yes, the Odyssey was very much On Purpose. DS9 is very much the middle child and in its first gulp of unshadowed air it felt the need to shout, "I am NOT TNG! The Enterprise doesn't swoop in and save the day here!" Did it actually need to do that? Debatable. Was it kind of a pseudo-middle finger to a fan base still a bit in grief? Maybe. It's certainly a statement, though. I'm curious what you thought about Quark's humans v. Ferengi stuff? It was kind of the foundation of the episode before Eris ran up, and it seemed to have raised an eyebrow or two.

E Parhas

1.) It basically being the Enterprise but not is the point. That's a whole crew like ours on the Enterprise and they just got wiped out, their own "ongoing mission" got wiped out just like that 2.) It's cool to see other ships within the same class. The real life navy has dozens of ships that are identical on the outside but the crew on the inside is what makes them what they are

Shane Coombs

I don't think it is at all accurate to say that older fans are not into the character stuff. The vast majority of Star Trek fans I have ever known going back to the 80s and 90s were interested in the character elements. Yes, we liked the sci-fi elements as well and that is why we watched science-fiction with good character work rather than other genres with good character work, but we still watched it in large part for the character stuff and considered the character stuff to be the most important part of it.

Brendon Waldron

Yes and the reason its a Constellation class is because the shot the episode saying Constitution class and needed a similar word to match the mouth movements when they dubbed over it with something else when they decided to change the model.

E Parhas

I know this sounds harsh but sometimes I feel like they don't have any imagination or ability to see the full picture. "It's not the Enterprise! So don't do that!" It's not the Enterprise but it's a similar ship with a crew that are all people in this world and if we followed the Odyssey in TNG instead of the Enterprise then we'd care about them just as much

E Parhas

Yeah exactly. This isn't "an Enterprise knockoff", it's ANOTHER GALAXY CLASS. It's the best type of ship they got. Likely all Galaxy Class ships are nearly as revered as the Enterprise because they are the top of the line, best of the best...and it got bodied

Todd

I think you guys REALLY underestimate the cost and difficulty of building ship models. In adjusted 2025 dollars the Enterprise D model cost about $1 million to build. They really can't just BUILD new ships super easily especially hero ships that are used for big moments. Also they clearly wanted to show that even Starfleet's largest ship could be easily taken out by the Jem'Hadar, to get anything impactful like that they'd have to design a whole new ship we've never seen that in some way is as imposing and large and impressive as the galaxy class. This was their Hulk gets beat up by Thanos moment. It's a classic storytelling trope to introduce the power and threat of a bad guy, I really don't see the problem. This also shows that there are other galaxy class ships out there, the Enterprise isn't the ONLY ship of this class flying around the alpha quadrant and that makes sense. Using the Enterprise model totally made sense to use for this situation.

E Parhas

I think it's definitely an unfortunate problem that they don't see the ships as "characters" or at the very least as interesting.

Todd

it didn't fail to set anything up we're in the same boat as the characters they didn't even really know the Dominion existed until a few months or so ago and had no idea of their claim to any territory or who or what they even really were. We still don't know after this other than they don't want anyone encroaching on their space. Anything about being expansionist we still don't know at this point. THAT is the point they're in someone else's yard picking their flowers and the angry farmer just came up and shot one of them for trespassing out of nowhere.

Todd

So you hated Thanos kicking the shit out of Hulk? Was that cheap and lazy? Same thing.

Todd

Yeah some people HATE Voyager. Yet Voyager is INSANELY popular if you look at ratings and viewership numbers. It's still very popular by the masses. I think because it's the most episodic and "plot" heavy of the series. Every episode is "PLOT the episode" basically with no consequences. For casual watchers it's super digestible and requires little investment, it's very much trying to be an old school 50s adventure tv show. TNG is the most chill, cozy and character based. DS9 is the biggest in scope, most ambitious, most serialized with by FAR the biggest characters arcs and requires the most investment. I think that's why each has it's fans and that's ok. Gotta just accept each for what it does best and try to not hate it for not being the what it's not.

LonghillAndy

Ok so you guys didn’t like it, fair enough did I laugh my ass off at you guys breaking it down and what you didn’t like? Absolutely and THIS is what I come for on the channel I love it when you guys take the piss out of everything that’s in your opinions wrong with the show, it makes it all so light hearted and entertaining for me personally 👏

Todd

no the kamaze run was to show that they're willing to do shit WE would never do. That they're not fucking around and will do crazy shit like kill themselves just to send a message. It's supposed to show how scary and unhinged their actions can be and what they're willing to do even when they don't have to.

Todd

yeah this episode is good but it's not amazing. It's not one of the series best BY FAR. It's better than how Alex reacted for sure but Best of Both Worlds it aint.

Brer

Really don't want to spoil anything here but... Awkward references to religion and specifically JESUS put you off TOS but you love DS9????????? Lmk if I should delete this but seriously there seems to be a disconnect there no?

Brer

The Enterprise is a character. Random ship never mentioned before introduced to fulfill the sole purpose of being blown up is not a character.

Sam Langanke

A little? Alex just had a bad day. A very bad and he needed something to piss on.

BN13

I understand and share your frustration, but I also accept that that is the price to pay for listening to someone who thinks completely differently than you, has completely different values than you, is embarking on a Star Trek journey that is different from your own, misses and dismisses things about the show that you think are the most important, and probably hates things about the show that you love, and vice versa. That's human diversity. It's part of how we can all watch the same exact thing and have vastly different reactions to it. Treat this channel as an exercise in accepting different people as fellow human beings on their own journey with their own opinions, even if they keep making choices that are vastly different than yours, or clearly don't value what you value. Frustration is part of the process when there are differences that you really don't agree with and think that someone else is completely missing the big picture and what is most important. Allow yourself to feel that, express that, accept that, and expect that. Then move on, and see what you can learn from others regardless. There will always be 400 other people in the comments who share your sentiments.

Sam Langanke

"I think you want people to hate you!" (Kate to Sawyer in "Lost")

Strife

Disagree. It’s a guest character we don’t really know. It can obviously be done better sometimes than others

BN13

Fittingly enough, Quark actually comments on that in this very episode. "You Federation types are all the same: You preach tolerance and acceptance, but only practice it toward people who remind you of yourselves" In The Last Outpost, Ferengi were meant to represent the worst traits of humanity. The things that we are supposed to grow out of. That episode was trying to challenge us to grow beyond those things. But in DS9, and in this episode, Ferengi are meant to represent people who hold different views and values than us, (and I would argue, generational trauma) even if we think their views are wrong and laughably bad. DS9 challenges us, are we going to condemn people who think differently than us? Or are we going to be like Dax and accept them for their differences, and learn that we can still have a lot of fun together? Funny that Alex and Josh have become the Ferengi in this example. And again, as Quark says, like the Ferengi, there may be many things that we think people like TA have completely wrong. But there's also lots of things about them that they do better than us. And vice versa. That's the beauty of human diversity, even if it is frustrating. We all have gaps, and we all fill gaps.

Gavin Hewitt

This is when I realised as a teenager paramount didn't give a single dam about ds9. Which is fine, it helps ds9 break the mould when voyager comes along.

Brendon Waldron

If you're specifically referring to this and the TNG finale as examples of that, when did not loving something automatically mean its hated? What happened to everything in between for you people?

Brendon Waldron

"but *insert whatever* is the whole point!!!" Yeah, well, being the point doesn't automatically make it good...

Ryan

This episode is structured the same way the season was. They spent half the S2 episodes inserting “Dominion” into random conversations so you wouldn’t think much about it, and then in the finale they turn out to be the real problem. I can see how some people would feel like that’s a bait and switch. I prefer to think that the writers were making us feel the same way as the characters — blissfully ignorant for way too long and then suddenly “Oh shit, we were looking in the wrong places this whole time.”

Weapon26

Haha! Damn I know I should have commented before you guys reacted. I felt the same, it was cool when I first saw this, but it felt less like a 'real episode' in a way. Don't worry, hang in there, the things you love are there in abundance (imo more than TNG). It's exactly what Josh said, people are reacting so positively to this given, they've seen it. Hang in there guys, I'll just say I'm jealous that I'm not first watching DS9 again but watching your reactions, it's like I am! Less 'new big bad' but, another piece on the board, what happens when all these factors start mixing.

Ian Westcott

No, but in the post about meeting Mike Flanagan (released before the early access for this episode) he was preemptively defensive. He probably remembers previous episodes where he thought it was meh, but the patron takes were uber positive.

Weapon26

Well there is a point that, ships are also ships. When you're with a crew that is living on a ship, I can see how you become attached like a car. But the are also ships. There are classes of ships and it would be odd to just build each one unique. When you're looking at the federation and star-fleet as a whole, there will be more than one ship of the same class. It's the characters attachment to particular ships that has that 'heart', but it's not practical to think there's only one ship of one class.

Jay Field

On this one, I will simply note, I think a big disconnect between you guys and your audience is a pretty strong PRESSUMED vibe of "this was just not good, these choices suck, they messed it up, this episode IS OBJECTIVELY - fact statement, not opinion - lame, and we're right on this and everyone else is wrong." And, for the record, I am NOT saying you ACTUALLY DO this (in fact, you often make it a point to say how this is just your take, and you understand why others don't agree with it, it's very specific what you're looking for in your TV show, and it's different from what other people want), but I think your delivery and personalities - particularly your unfiltered disdain for stuff you don't like - give a lot of people that impression. Like they feel you're insulting them personally for liking the thing you don't like (which, again, I will stress, you guys CLEARLY do not do). Not anyone's "fault" or anything, just a perception disconnect between you and a lot of your viewers. Can't really say if there's anything to be done about it, and maybe there is something to that contrarianism Alex was mentioning, but I'm not even saying any of this is a "bad" thing, just suggesting an explanation for some of the backlash sometimes.

BN13

Fittingly enough, Quark actually comments on accepting different viewpoints in this very episode. "You Federation types are all the same: You preach tolerance and acceptance, but only practice it toward people who remind you of yourselves" In The Last Outpost, Ferengi were meant to represent the worst traits of humanity. The things that we are supposed to grow out of. That episode was trying to challenge us to grow beyond those things. But in DS9, and in this episode, Ferengi are meant to represent people who hold different views and values than us, (and I would argue, generational trauma) even if we think their views are wrong and laughably bad. DS9 challenges us, are we going to condemn people who think differently than us? Or are we going to be like Dax and accept them for their differences, and learn that we can still have a lot of fun together once we accept that? Funny that Alex and Josh have become the Ferengi in this example. But again, as Quark says, like the Ferengi, there may be many things that we think people like TA have completely wrong. But there's also lots of things about them that they do better than us. And vice versa. That's the beauty of human diversity, even if it is frustrating. We all have gaps, and we all fill gaps.

Miranda

Ha! For me, it was circa Season 3 episode 20.

Numinous2019

The Dominion were mentioned in passing without any elaboration earlier. If they aren't untrustworthy and unreasonable, why do they fail to first communicate with the Alpha Quadrant powers, before mass murder (New Bajor, the various ships destroyed, etc.). As to the writing of The Dominion.....how did they create such an elaborate ruse so quickly to plant an agent (the Vorta) on DS9, when it all relied on Sisko taking a random excursion to the Gamma Quadrant? The writing doesn't hold up to scrutiny, which muddies the motivations of The Dominion. We just have to accept what we are shown in the S2 finale, because we don't have consistent info due to the writers still working this all out.

Paul

I think it's clear Josh did like it, not love, but definitely enjoyed & is more excited about the implications. I'm not worried. There's so much excellent character drama to come, often fused with good plots that they do care about when it touches the crew.

Paul

The weight of it is lost on them because to care about an event they have to care about the people it happens to. They didn't know anyone on the Odyssey. The larger picture of world implications doesn't hit them as hard. It would have been so much better had we known the Odyssey's captain and crew a bit before this happened.

ellknii

Plus in TNG the Yamato was destroyed, so a Galaxy Class going boom isn't new.

Christopher Jones

It's so funny to me that you guys found the plot to be such an intrusion in this episode. Even when I was seeing this for the first time I remember finding this plot more exciting than you seemed to. After months of teasing about this mysterious entity called the Dominion we get our first real look at them and hints at what they're about. Plus when I first saw who all was going on that runabout I was looking forward to them having an adventure together. This is the adventure they had. I pretty much got everything out of the episode I hope for at the outset. You guys sounded like you just wanted them to sit at their campsite and bicker for 40 minutes. I realize that's a bit of an overstatement but I just don't feel like it's an expectation I understand.

Isengardtom

I agree - it’s a decent episode but overhyped by the fans

Ca$hWednesday

I'm not entirely sure why the colour of his beard was mentioned at all in the discussion. Yes, bro looks eccentric. I'm not sure how that relates to his writing. Other than one bad episode of TNG, that's all they can comment on. They never even mention that he wrote arguably the best episode of TNG, an episode they both gushed over.

Ca$hWednesday

Between the TNG Ferengi and Sisko seemingly reverting back to his S1 ham line delivery at times, it was distracting and is the main reason I cant rate it higher. I still think it's a B-tier episode. It just could have been much higher with a couple changes.

Kruszcontrol

Gonna be hard waiting for season 3...

Crewman #6

Ahaha, I think you guys are fair with your takes and the overhyping by the TA. That said, I'm just imagining a whole lotta shifty looks between the audience members from all your commentary.

brian

Yeah but blah blah blah reasons blah! I love watching the show with you guys and that you have no idea what's coming. Your honest reactions are great

Loot Narsbaar

Here's the thing: that may be ANNOYING at times, but we don't get good discussion without the occasional disagreement. Because of those discussions I sometimes see these episodes, 30 years later, in a new light. For instance, I was never wowed by this episode, but after watching the reaction I can put my finger on exactly why. Pretty much everyone I can talk Trek with IRL gets annoyed if I'm at all critical of anything slapped with Trek branding so it's nice to have an outlet where you can say "I know this a fan favorite, but I don't think it works., here's why."

Loot Narsbaar

It's not fair to say the because one of them didn't like it, they must have missed some plot point or dialogue. Sometimes things don't vibe with other people in the way you think they will. I love Trek. I have a encyclopedic knowledge of TNG and DS9. I *hated* Parallels. I was the only one. It happens.

Loot Narsbaar

The moment of the Odyssey being destroyed is undercut by the crew talking over it. I'd argue it would be much more effective if it was re-edited to where the crew has Holy Fucking Shit looks on their face and then we cut to them on the station. The moment could hit harder. It's like how a good baseball announcer will be silent for a minute after a huge milestone is achieved (Like a no-hitter or record homerun) and let the audience take in the roar of the crowd. You have to let the moment breathe. Having Sisko explain the entire scene suffocates it.

Kaleb Gee

I have been waiting for this EPISODE ALL SEASON LONG THIS IS JUST THE BEGINNING

Loot Narsbaar

Actually I don't know how they IMDB his name and not see a whole litany of spoilers. I can't discuss this topic without spoilers up the ass.

Loot Narsbaar

The team at Utopia Planitia was their Yes era when they designed the Roundabouts

Edweirdo

The tone felt weird. Seems like these new bad guys are supposed to be seriously bad, but here is also some comedy. 1000 people, die, oh hey, next scene.

Derek Orr

Modern tv and younger audiences are not as focus on plot

Derek Orr

They are less major characters for sure …but all starfleet starships are characters…especially Galaxy class ships

Derek Orr

That’s a bit misleading. Yamato was destroyed in a very early TNG episode…well before TNG audience grew. It was before the beard and before the borg What many people forget is it was A HUGE big deal to destroy the odyssey …not just in universe but in real life. The studio would not let them use a galaxy class model on DS9 to represent other ships …in order to avoid confusing the casual audience. This episode happened because of TNG being wrapped up

Derek Orr

I agree but also we need to acknowledge we can’t nag them into changing their likes into focusing more on ships and science

Derek Orr

Yup! My jaw hit the floor when Alex said Constellation class 🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️

Derek Orr

A full episode of them camping would be utterly painful

Derek Orr

Reacting for a few mins to some SNL skit or a trailer is not particularly interesting to me

Derek Orr

They should be forced to react to 20 min YouTube video that outlines and explains starfleet and ship classes and ranks and structure etc

Derek Orr

Unfortunately that clip also changes the frame rate to a gross high level of soap opera effect

Derek Orr

And not only destroyed by insulted and called a constellation class

Derek Orr

Ya I don’t understand the DS9 is best crowd

Derek Orr

Good voyager episodes are superior to mediocre DS9 episodes

Derek Orr

Well yes I agree with him. References to our religions are off putting to those of us who are atheists like Roddenberry

Derek Orr

How was it a dupe? They said Captain Keogh was coming before they showed the shot of a galaxy class docked

Derek Orr

I mean we saw thousands of galaxy class ships in the parallels episode

Trekkie74205

Missing plot points is just facts. The New Bajor colony was mentioned in multiple episodes and at the beginning of this episode. The Odyssey being due was mentioned twice in the episode before it arrived, as well as the captain being discussed. There have always been multiples in every class of ship. DS9's location has been mentioned in many episodes, as has the travel time to Bajor. It is difficult to enjoy something if you aren't following everything. You are correct in saying it doesn't HAVE to be the cause though. I should have worded it differently. Hate Parallels you say? I'm gonna keep my eye on you. How is your VOY knowledge? :-)

Aaron Wells

Actually, yeah that would have been awesome. With all the running back and forth between the station and Cardassia... Would have been easy to have Sisko catch a ride on the Odyssey, have a quick scene with Keough using the TNG ready room set, maybe with different furniture or something. Could have used stock footage. Would have had a lot more punch if they had established the Odyssey and Captain Keogh in the proceeding episode...

Kristina Weber

It's funny how bored they are of the Dominion when I enjoyed them so much as villains of DS9. They get better as the show goes on! I hope they like them more next season.

Loot Narsbaar

Counterpoint it took maybe a year of watching TNG before I could separate the the Federation from Starfleet, to know what "Helm" was (is that the name of the extra sitting next to Data???) etc. they haven't gotten multiple re watches of the show. I agree they should know the station isn't in orbit of Bajor, but that was mostly a Season 1 plot point. It's a first time watch through! It hasn't been drilled into him.

Loot Narsbaar

Oh and i don't like Voyager, and never finished it. But I did watch the finale, which I hated.

Sunny

I like different viewpoints when there’s some thought behind them. It gives me a different perspective than I get when I’ve only ever watched Star Trek alone. Doesn’t change that I liked this episode the first time and still do. Especially since liking it doesn’t mean I think it has no faults.

Deliximus

Is this the biggest thread of them all?

LonghillAndy

Yeah that was a case of typing faster then my brain was going, Josh was ok on the episode

Gavin Hewitt

Having watched this few days back, for me, the exposition dump was warranted in terms of the story, people from another quadrant have no idea of the local overlords, what else is she going to do, get into some deep conversation? Imagine someone going back in time and asking the sane about the nazis, you're not going to get some deep insightful chat, you're going to get a dump of brutality stories

James Johnson

You see the USS Yamato in Contagion, which is another Galaxy class ship

River Acheron

Agreed. I don't judge people by the way they dress or look. I am alternative myself. We also have a girl at work who identifies as a cat and makes her hair and makeup up to look as such and she is the nicest most intelligent cashier we have. They tried to get her to change her clothes to look more conservative and she fought it though the union and won. Good on her! Two phrases work wonders in retail. "I'll call my union rep" and "I will go to the press." I don't wanna get political so to keep it in the realm of Star Trek, as fans of something like this kind of franchise, we should all respect self-expression and individuality. Personally I love Ira's blue beard :)

Trekkie74205

I knew those things from TOS. There is an advantage in watching a franchise in order as TA is. It is their channel. If they want to joke and laugh over entire scenes they can. In my humble opinion, it does effect what they understand, and their enjoyment of certain episodes. Nobody has to agree with me. I am used to that in life. lol I hope you stick around for Voyager this time. I have read some of your other posts and appreciate your point of view.

River Acheron

Brer, I just don't really like Christian undertones or overtones in media. It's nothing against the religion itself, it's just not for me. As far as DS9 goes, NO spoilers but what we know so far, mystical spiritually is fine! Plus theirs is a different situation as their "gods" exist as aliens who live in the wormhole as we have seen in episode one. Bajorans worship them as gods, but it comes down to terminology. ARE they gods or a highly advanced species that exists outside of linerar time? It depends on if they are worshipped or not. Plus I am an Eclectic Wiccan so I'm not all anti-religion or spirituality. (my beliefs are...hard to explain actually) And the fact that Christian references were forced by the network (so the story goes) doesn't sit well with me at all. Nor the fact that the references were bordering on preaching/sermon a little. Again, its not for me. I maintain (and im not the only one) that Kirk is NOT Christian. I don't even take those lines as canon because it was forced by the network. No WAY would Kirk worship Jesus. However, Christian references are not the only reason I'm not into TOS. As I said, it's too dated for me and I don't feel it stands the test of time that well. I binged it twice and I just cannot get into it. I personally think 60's TV asthetics are goofy and don't hold up in 2025. For me.

River Acheron

Again, this goes into my point that I, or anyone, cannot help what we like or dislike for ANY reason. I swear I had older Trek fans (not here) tell me if I don't like TOS then I'm not a real Star Trek fan. Which is just rediculous. I mean I'm in my mid 20s and I have friends who just know Trek from Discovery, Strange New Worlds etc and loves them. I would NEVER even think let alone say that they are not Trek fans! It is humanily impossible for anyone to convince anyone else to like something they don't or hate something they like. I wont mention the channel, but there's a YouTuber out there that does nothing but bash "nu-Trek" and those commentors...they hate on anyone who likes it! I tried to explain why I liked aspects of Discovery and said me liking it has no bearing on them disliking it. And I was told "no, it IS my business because people like you is why television is the way it is now." I also do not feel being innovative or groundbreaking equels GOOD. I acknowledge what TOS did, and I respect it for that. Just like I said in the past I respect Citizen Kane but I don't feel it's a very interesting movie. I don't care about the newspaper business whatsoever. It's not for me, and I would SUBJECTIVELY rate it a D+ TOS for me is a solid C subjectively. Yes there are S episodes but it's just not close to my favorite Trek.

Cranky Grandma

I agree that this one is probably better for those who have seen the whole show, but I expect your reaction is generational as well. I remember going “oh cool! Let’s find out more!” In the90s. It reminded me of my reaction to TNG season one’s Conspiracy, which also appeared to be a set up for the future (at least at first viewing. Now, I find the episode mainly a B, maybe a B- but what I liked was potential set up. You love Jake and Nog. It warms my heart. Their scenes were the best!

HeatheЯ

Let's give Alex and Josh some time. They're having big feelings with TNG ending and that's going to influence them, even when trying to be objective. It's just human nature.

Wizardling

Do they want Seinfeld in space?

Wizardling

People in real life do actually often talk things through, as they happen. It's human nature. Not just a TV trope.

Wizardling

You'd think he'd be glad there actually was some nice character stuff in an episode setting up a 'big bad' as they term it. But no. He wanted Seinfeld in space, and of course he didn't get that. Cause that isn't Trek.

Wizardling

I find it deeply ironic how the guys complain every single time anything is said out loud. Yet they proceed to miss so much, and forget more. Frankly I think they need *more* exposition. Not less :-D

Wizardling

For me, I want great characters, important themes explored with the time taken to do so properly, *and* sci-fi strangeness and action. Always have, probably always will. I actually didn't enjoy any of the new Trek nearly as much as old Trek, because it felt like an attention deficit Marvel flick, instead of Trek, damnit. All action, no reflection or thoughtfulness.

Wizardling

Yes, it does. But it is *already* good, IMO. DS9 got good way faster than TNG managed.

Jill Barker

Yes, agreed. Their reaction and lack of interest in the Dominion is rather a worrying development . Not sure now how this will colour their future responses to DS9.

Wizardling

It (the ship assembly line) absolutely does exist in Trek, yes. Star Fleet builds a NX prototype, tests that, works out the kinks, then creates others based on that, with an established manufacturing line to make the rest much faster.

Wizardling

I don't think they'll ever truly appreciate how bad a show it would be, if it really was Seinfeld in space. Even Seinfeld itself doesn't make me laugh or hook me in, anywhere near as much as it did when it was new.

Wizardling

Exactly. The suicide run was a huge differentiator, *if* you realized the implications, as Todd said. It shocked me back in the day. One of many ways I knew DS9 was a different kind of Trek than anything which came before.

Loot Narsbaar

What I like about the release order watch is it gives me insight as to why DS9 was received how it was. If this episode is so amazing why did they lose a huge piece of the audience after this episode even though they were the only Trek on? I'm not saying high rated = good art, I'm asking rhetorically.

Loot Narsbaar

After rewatching the discussion I wouldn't say they aren't excited for season 3, they're afraid the show will be dumbed down and become an action spectacle as the expense of character interaction.

Loot Narsbaar

I commented about how elsewhere in the thread

Travis Boyle

They could of used the nebula class ship from The Wounded

ShazD

Spoilers

ShazD

They have only seen one episode of the Dominion bro. Don't overreact.

ShazD

Wouldn't have been anywhere near 1000 people. They evacuate nonessential personnel.

ShazD

Why is it taking them so long to understand basic world building elements like this?

General Trelane

Bizarre reaction from the guys for this episode

Sixto

Spoilers on Voyager !

Back Flip Bet

That wouldn't make sense jellico would have dominated the Dominion

ShazD

Yeah. Why would you not be excited about all this lore and world building and POTENTIAL and instead just sit and nitpick all the particulars of how they relayed the information?

HeatheЯ

DS9 - Dax brings it up

Vina

Realistically, the Federation should have backed off. The Dominion is not a benevolent presence, but nevertheless it controls that space, and whether the Federation wants to explore there or not WILL involve dealing with the Dominion somehow. The Federation sort of forgot that Realpolitik is a thing I guess

Paul

Simply because they don't care about the lore and world building and potential unless and in how it directly affects the characters they love. Unlike most of us, who view the lore, ships, world building as its own full-fledged character. Very different perspective.

Tim Nikiforovs

Captain Styles on CVN-65 chasing down a stolen Iowa class "If he tries to get away with steam turbines, Ha, he's really in for a shock."

Tim Nikiforovs

I really do think that's a huge issue here. Most trek fans had the better part of a month between AGT and this ep, and I saw most of 90s trek wildly out of order, so I had already seen the end of TNG and into S3 or 4 of DS9 before I got the chance to watch this one, so TNG wasn't even on my mind watching. The break will do them good.

Tim Nikiforovs

Alright, so having watched the reaction and (mostly) reading through this sea of comments I'll just say this. I think people are overreacting. Yeah I disagree with a number of your takes, but I think it's ridiculous to assume DS9 is doomed and you'll never like it because of this. I do understand the criticism of there being a lot of exposition. However I do feel it was justified here and at least gave us some info on the new player. Maybe a tad overdone at times, but it's like 15-20% as bad as the Armageddon Game scene near the end. As for the Odyssey, that's been beat to death in the comments already. They already had a new ship in the episode, they wanted to show starfleet's best ship type getting bodied, and we've already seen another galaxy class get destroyed. I don't think it was any kind of "middle finger" to TNG, just a classic case of establishing the threat. Using existing ship models is nothing new to trek. What bugs me about the complaint is the episode CLEARLY telegraphed that a ship named the Odyssey was coming to the station. The reaction should have been "I guess the Odyssey is a Galaxy class", not "is that the Enterprise"? There was never any indication. This brings me to my theory. I believe watching this just a week after AGT negatively affected the reaction. You've been talking about TNG cameos on DS9 so much you set yourselves up with that expectation. In that reused shot of the Enterprise docked with DS9 you instantly jumped to thinking it was the Enterprise when there was no reason to think that. I think on some level this dragged down what followed. Most Trek facs had 3 weeks post TNG before getting to this. I watched 90s trek largely entirely out of order, so TNG and the Ent-D weren't even on my mind. I think the break will do you good. For my part, I always felt this ep was a little overrated. I'd give it a solid B+. It's mostly setup, the opening 20 minutes seem out of place with the back half. Still, I think it effectively sets up who the Dominion and the Jem'Hadar are and how far they're willing to go. Is a huge part of all the High A and S scores knowing what happens next? Sure, which is why I downplayed this somewhat over the past few months. Still, I didn't find the reaction to be anywhere near as bad as it was made out to be, and I certainly won't be rage quitting over it. Tons of DS9 left to go, and who knows, you may end up loving Voyager way more than most fans. See you in 2026

Loot Narsbaar

I don't understand every one saying "Seinfeld in space." I think it's ridiculous. Seinfeld is amoral characters nitpicking life's foibles who always get their comeuppance and never learn.

Loot Narsbaar

Also after The Neutral Zone we didn't have a 500 comment thread about how J and A weren't going to like The Defector or The Enemy sole because the Romulans introduction was lacking

Loot Narsbaar

...and SEINFELD HAD PLOT. It was famous for stories with intertwining plot threads that would collide in unexpected ways at the climax of the episode. It says something when in their show George refers to it as "about nothing" when they are doing a parody of their own sitcom that is purposefully worse than the actual product.

Numinous2019

That's a good point. I'm sure J&A will like season 3, but (as always) they'll surprise us in some ways.

Brent Morris

I think you'll like this episode a lot better after you watched all of Deep Space 9 I'm new to Patreon and your channel so I hope I'm not violating any spoilers which I'm not trying to do but this really sets up the rest of the series I think if you watch it after you watch all seven seasons of Deep Space 9 you'll like this episode more. Ive read one of the writers comments before and they said that the reason they put the Odyssey as a galaxy class ship was to show that even the Enterprise would've been destroyed by the Dominion

PRIVATEER

I think the Dominion isnt there to replace the Borg as the big bad, instead like the cardassians, Klingons and romulons its just another political faction and from the episode..seemingly powerful

Joseph Spiros

In defense of "those SOBs", plenty of people just treat YouTube as a library of videos to choose from, and don't read every description before they comment. I'm not sure it's a reasonable expectation that people carefully consider on every video what the "rules" are.

Joseph Spiros

Though, I agree, I would recommend they avoid the comments. I'd be surprised if they didn't already know to do that, though, for that exact reason: there's no basis for expecting people to not spoil in the YouTube comments.

Marko

You are correct, I have overreacted in grouping all of them into that one category, some people might just inadvertently do it without realizing. But I have seen a lot of the same people do it in the TA videos, and they would know better. So I think I was revolted mainly because of that.

Comrade Wireless Caller

In what I think is an good throwback to a previous episode the original script for this episode mentioned that the Jem'Hadar shroud is similar to that employed by the Tosk. It also said the Tosk were engineered as a gift to the Hunters as a reward for their loyalty to the Dominion, thus establishing that the Tosk and the Hunters were Dominion members. This was a connection later confirmed by Robert Hewitt Wolfe . On some other interesting sidenotes. This is the last episode to feature the 2360s combadges from Star Trek: The Next Generation (1987) and the first two seasons of "Star Trek: Deep Space Nine." Also the trade negotiations to which Quark refers began in the 1993 episode Rules of Acquisition, which was the first episode to mention the Dominion. Ira Steven Behr has also said this was an intentional way of hinting at future events in an otherwise inconsequential episode. There was also an indirect reference in the 1993 episode Sanctuary to the Dominion invasion of Skrreea, as well as in the 1994 episode Shadowplay.

Drake

that was a "GALAXY" class ship same as enterprise, not constellation class thats a very different class The Galaxy Class is the "capital" ship of the fleet so bascily every big ship at this stardate is this class.

Drake

this was the 2nd highest rated DS9 episode so far with 8.4/10 and one of the highest rated finals. I remember when i watched it as kid i totaly flipped out when thes suicide destroyed the galaxy class ship, i am mindblown you dont like it no matter the context xD

Laura Thornley

Its one of those episodes that is better on a rewatch. There's a lot of lore dumping going on.

Todd

What you have to remember is the threat is not that the Dominion is OP, but that the Dominion is 2 step ahead of the Federation. They already know about all the their allies and enemies. Like Josh said, there are a lot of possibilities out there. At this point, I think Josh will love DS9 and Alex won't.

Troy Convers

Jesus Christ Alex, if this doesn't impress you, I suggest you stop watching now. Fuck if I'm subscribing to a Patreon where people are underwhelmed by what's coming. And what's coming is regarded by many as the finest Trek to date. I get that people have differing opinions, but you sound checked out at times.

MJBull

One, it is rather difficult to get a Galaxy Class ship to not look like Enterprise-D. Also, the point of the suicide run was that the Dominion fights dirty.

Troy Convers

Good catch with the Dominion reference. #deepcut

Troy Convers

So what's the deal with starship food?

MJBull

There are different scale models for different purposes. Between "Cause and Effect", "Parallels" and "All Good Things.." a number of smaller Enterprises were shown destroyed.

Troy Convers

They won't love the show. In fact, I can see them quitting it like they did with BSG.

Troy Convers

That only works for so long before you get 'X-Pac heat'.

MJBull

There is a line indicating that the Odyssey had left civilians and children at DS9 before traversing the wormhole.

MJBull

Very little happens? They got informed that the great power in the Gamma quadrant was not taking kindly to their activities over there.

MJBull

It is one thing to not be into it. It is another to be dismissive of it almost o the point of contempt. There is a large amount of the audience into ship porn.

Ian Thompson

Ok, I think even people who love this one can admit that it feels like two completely different episodes mashed together. Alex in particular seems more bothered by the bait-and-switch aspect than the content of the episode itself. Personally, I think 'The Jem'Hadar' starting so chill and low-key is an effective way to lull you into a false sense of security so they can wallop you with this huge sense of escalation in the back half. But I also completely understand someone not liking how disjointed it feels. That said, I also feel people are overreacting like crazy to them being underwhelmed. IT'S THEIR FIRST TIME WATCHING THE SHOW. Please, please keep that in mind folks. First of all, talking about "where DS9 goes from here" is a spoiler in and of itself. Second, the "oh no the plot" thing is because the character stuff from the first half feels like it gets put on the backburner, and I can understand them being worried that the show will continue to do this going forward, ESPECIALLY with people telling them if they don't like this episode they won't like the rest of DS9. Alex and Josh clearly love character-focused Star Trek, and if there is one show in this entire franchise I'm not worried about in that respect, it's this one. Sure, I'm surprised by their reaction too, but this is hardly some kind of death sentence for their experience with this show like some commenters are making it out to be.

paultardspambot .

yeah, I was going to mention that the Hunters were supposed to be part of the Dominion but pretty sure that counts as a spoiler. I understand where you are coming from, but since they dont know the hunters dont reappear, that is something they have explicitly said is a spoiler. Its not just what happenss, it what doesnt happen. I understand it seems like this is fair game,. since the hunters were meant to be dominion members who track down difficult to find people for the dominion but this is never actually followed up on, but saying something that was supposed to happen when it confirms a race doesnt reappear is, by their given definition, a spoiler. There are even more suggestive spoilers in what you said which Im not going to get into, but maybe you should consider deleting this post

paultardspambot .

its also very different from the Borg as we've already seen. It's more like an "anti-federation" an aliance of races that is hierarchal and about control rather then exploration

paultardspambot .

I think most people were worried that Alex especially would hate the Dominion as an antagonist because of the way they were introduced. And more generally that they wouldn't like the "raising of stakes" this represented that somewhat alters the premise of the show from a wild west frontier outpost to a super important federation base that is the first line of defense against an existential threat, plus all the other things that have already been developed.

paultardspambot .

They do at times. Josh just really disliked the changeover from what he hoped would just be an episode about a camping trip and seemed to really dislike every aspect of how it was done, including some misreading like not getting the Odyssey was already set up and never supposed to be a tease for the enterprise. Which is where there is a major disconnect because I think most fans really loved how this was done whereas he seemed to hate everything about it.

paultardspambot .

lol "big feelings" come on now, they arent toddlers

paultardspambot .

its not just that. Have to be careful here but... if they dont like the idea of an OP threat like the borg but that isnt just a one off, that might not bear well for their enjoyment of the show

paultardspambot .

yeah, I said this before but I'm not sure how much more they could have gotten out of the camping premise, and the show did continue the dynamic between Sisko and Quark but in a different situation.

paultardspambot .

no, but if you misunderstand what a show is attempting its frustarting. A bit like, "this wasnt funny at all" when something wasnt supposed to be funny or "this failed to be scary" when the irony was supposed to undercut the horrror

paultardspambot .

but it wouldnt highlight the threat because the nebula isnt the topline ship

paultardspambot .

interesting, is this a joke or your actual opinion? I could understand it as you may have preferred the season 2 setting of "outpost on the frontier" more then what comes

paultardspambot .

yes. Its high space opera. Its character driven in that context, but its still spacd opera. With complex intersecting plotilines and themes that changes the premise from exploration to the larger world built by the previous shows and events of galactic importance that affect things on scales we only scratched the surface of before. If thats not something they're into, the grandness and epic scale and the idea of the alpha quadrant as a place where events have impact beyond the effects on one ship or even one planet, and thats the "bigger scale" of the setting, then its going to hamper they're enjoyment because the best character stuff is in that context. Like digging the camping trip but not enjoying the continued character interactions of Quark and Sisko because "oh no, plot"

paultardspambot .

Because 1. DS9 came on after TNG, so when people stopped watching TNG they also stopped watching DS9. 2. For whatever reasons the haters got louder, maybe because it was the only show to focus on 3. The serialized elements were genuinely challenging for many viewers at the time who were used to TNG, and if someone missed certain episodes or part of a season they would be lost in terms of the plot, and so many episodes required really seeing everything and understanding what was going on and had been established to really grok all the complex intersecting storylines. It wasnt like today where you could easily watch episodes you missed, and the internet wasnt what it is either, so the more causual TNG fans struggled with it. 4. Pretty much all the marketing and hype was for the premier of Voyager which was treated as the new "flagship" franchise and DS9 was kind of just a thing that was also happening. 5. It wasn't till DS9 finished and was shown in syndication and other modernizations when it grew its cult following and high reputation.

paultardspambot .

If the Dominion had contacted the Federation and claimed it as their territory and negotiated a treaty, the federation presumably would have respected it. Instead they wait, let them explore while watching, make no claim or even appearance, then suddenly attack and destroy a colony and declare the entire gamma quadrant off limits while also making a point of being extremely agressive and intimidating. We can't get into choices the federation makes after this episode as that would be spoilerish. I would say thought that after this event, there is logical strategic reason for the federation to continue exploring. And had the Dominion come through the wormhole and claimed they wanted to explore, I don't thnk the federation could say no. How could they, they don't own the alpha quadrant and they have let ships freely travely through the wormhole.

Prof Moff

DS9 sex scoreboard catch up version No scores that I saw (remember I am only catching up with the short versions) The sex score board Quark 4 Jadzia 2 Chief 1 Keiko 1 Odo 1 Kira 1 Bashir 1

TrekWars

These reactions make me rethink my subscription. I've been questioning it for a while and I don't think its worth it at this point. At first I liked these guys, but slowly and steadily I've disagreed with most of their reactions. They have assumptions and expectations going into the episodes and if the show doesn't meet them, they don't seem to like it.

uberelder

why would it matter if they like it or not?

uberelder

i'm kind of blown away by the patron reactions to their reaction. It doesn't come off like they hated the episode, but reading the comments, you'd think they both gave it an "E" lmao. "C" still means it's good but flawed from what they've said. And Josh said he'd probably go even higher but didn't specify, so probably a low "B". both pretty good scores. people need to chill TFO