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Why We Love Star Trek (Patreon)

Published:
2025-11-19 19:08:50
Edited:
2026-11-01 04:53:09
Imported:

Content

An in-depth discussion on why we love the Star Trek franchise, and a full breakdown of our opinions on the following topics:

  • OH NO! THE PLOT! What makes an episode enjoyable?

  • How execution is more important than preference

  • The value of production context to our opinions

  • Our episode discussions vs a standard review

  • What we love about science fiction

  • Why Star Trek is our favorite TV franchise

  • Perspective of watching 90s TV in 2025

& more!

Files

Comments

Isengardtom

I love your takes on the shows. As far as I’m concerned be as critical as you like. It’s more interesting that way. And you weren’t wrong on the last episode of DS9 S2 in my opinion. It’s pretty average. Some Star Trek fans take themselves way too serious. I would even say it’s a pretty toxic fandom at times unfortunately.

Summer

I get what you are saying about the plot interrupting character, there is an episode some seasons away I might feel that way of, however, as a writer I have not usually felt discombobulated by a plot arriving in Trek, I get why the finale was jarring. Same with the Chase. To me the plot being introduced 8 times out of ten feels normal, so if you had wanted to push the Dominion story but also give us good Jake, Nog and Sisko how would a writer do that, because despite love for characters, the story is usually begun because of a plot idea. As Alex basically referenced, you guys had times in mid TNG where fans felt you hated it, just imagine what that means for DS9. But sadly, writers and all thirty to forty years ago refuse to rewrite things the way I want, too

Collin Freeman

From what I've read about TV and writing episode scripts, the writers typically want the viewers to do a little work, but the producers and the networks want things more spelled out (dumbed down), their rationale being: 1) Not all viewers are that bright and it will turn them away, and 2) If someone gets up to go to the bathroom or grab a snack and comes back and misses this key scene, they'll be totally lost. Bear in mind, recorded TV episodes didn't really become a thing until the 1980's/1990's, and even then it was not a universal thing. Most people don't walk out during a film in a theater to get popcorn. The original Mission: Impossible TV show had that problem, because if you got up and left at any moment, you could be lost for the rest of the episode (yet it lasted 7 seasons).

Collin Freeman

Why is Star Trek so popular? Because it has something for everyone. If you don't like 1 episode, stick around, there will likely soon be 1 with something you do like.

Aaron Wells

Yeah, a lot of people get pretty passionate about it. And, frankly, being passionate about something you care about is not a bad thing. A lot of people just go through life staring at social media on their phone like zombies, and they never really get excited about anything. They don't have hobbies. Interests. They just stare at their phone. It's okay to feel things. It's okay to be excited about something. I'm not a big sports fan. I don't personally understand how people can paint their faces and put on costumes like they're going to Comic-Con so they can jump up and down on the couch and scream over a ball being thrown or kicked or whatever. But I'm really happy for them, that they're getting that much joy and excitement out of it. I'm not going to say they're taking themselves too seriously. It's not really about them, it's about the thing they care about. And that's okay. If people are excited to argue and discuss and debate this whole thing, great. It means they're engaged. It means they're passionate. It means they feel something. I think the real toxicity comes when people seem to try to want to get into a competition with each other about who can care less and who can be the least affected. People proudly screaming about how they don't care... isn't actually a good thing. Not caring, especially pretending to not care, is a lot more toxic than caring.

Numinous2019

One of the main reasons (and there are several) that I'm a TA Patreon is that you both give honest reactions. My gripes with the DS9 season 2 finale are mostly different to Alex's, but I respect Alex's opinions. As to Alex recently asking if DS9 would provide the same emotional high points for him that TNG did.....DS9 is a different show. So while there are emotional peaks, they are not the same kind.

Ken R

I'm sorry, your theories on plot still don't make any sense to me. You guys always have been a fan of "tell, don't show" and you want no plot to interfere with the characters telling each other how they feel and whatnot, but that is not the best way to reveal character if you can also show and not tell. So we come to this episode where your discussion indicates all characterization is being impeded by the introduction of the plot, but the plot is why in the middle of this episode we get a scene that plotwise has no purpose: Odo and Kira in the hallway. What goes on in that scene? Odo is telling us in the audience that he cares about Quark more than he lets on and even though he doesn't have to go on this life and death mission he is going because Quark is in trouble. He doesn't have to spell it out sitting around a campfire "Quark, I love you man!" or whatever, the plot affords him the opportunity to show us, not tell us. Then we come to Quark, and out of nowhere he has a history with lock picking. Its stuff like that that goes a way into fleshing a character out, not the shallow recitation of the infinity long list of acquisition. Plot is everything, characters thrive in plot because it puts them to the test and allows them to show themself. Yes, you don't want plot writing that needs characters to act out of character because come hell or high water Sisko has to be in a nun costume in minute 29, but this episode didn't do that.

Darin Wagner

Something that you guys are missing with your viewing of Star Trek is that back in the day, there was always a preview of next week's episode before the credits. For example, we knew a week ahead of time that Scotty was going to be in "Relics." If you wanted a truly authentic experience, you would be watching those preview trailers... but I understand why you're not.

Ken R

Also, Agatha Christie did indeed write her solutions before the rest of her books. I think I read she felt if she knew how it happened it is just easier to come up with the clues and lies. Too often on shows its clear they come up with stuff and no idea how it ends.

Trekkie74205

Great conversation. It did shed some light on things for me. I would make a few points. 1. It is understandable not to like guest stars spoiled in opening credits. It is less understandable to have a meltdown about it after a few hundred episodes...with a few hundred episodes to go. 2. Screenwriters can choose to have the audience ahead/behind/even with what the characters know. Having the audience ahead is supposed to create suspense. Whether it is always successful is another story. 3. Your discussion made me think of a quote from a DS9 writer that joins the show next episode. "If it wasn't an action adventure show for young men 18-40, we could have easily done an entire season on life on a station, where nothing much happens except everyday life." -REDACTED 4. There may be other examples, but The Six Million Dollar Man and The Bionic Woman did great crossovers in the 70's. One story over 3 episodes between the two shows. Thanks again for the chat.

Numinous2019

There is a very specific reason why 'The Jem'Hadar' is a hyrid episode. That reason is a major spoiler. So (like many commenters here) I think you both need to reserve opinion on that episode until you have watched more of DS9.

River Acheron

The only times I would say I don't care about ANY character growth or drama is horror. (you briefly touched on this) In fact, I think character growth in horror takes away from the horror. In something even like a psychological horror thriller, Silence of the Lambs, we don't care about Clarice's growth and sureness of self (and yes I know the title references the quieting of her demons). But most people do not watch it though that dramatic lens. We watch it for the psychological aspect, the messed up aspects of the crimes (both Hannibals and Bills), etc. And yes. For haunted house movies, slashers, supernatural horror, body horror and many other subgenres, I would be hard pressed to find a movie or show where I wished there was more character development. That DOESNT mean I want a cast of cardboard cliches or tropes (unless theres a subversion, lampshading, or parody such as Scream or Cabin in the Woods). I DO want well-rounded characters! But I don't want character growth and story drama in horror. The closest I can think of is Alice from Nightmare on Elm Street 4 and 5, but that's because she was literally one of best written final girls of all time. Yes WAY better than Nancy, and I like Nancy! Alice is better :P But yes. this is because horror is unique. It's primary purpose is to invoke primal fear, not to tell a great story. (you can have both of course but the story is not necessary as analog-horror on YouTube has proven.) Horror aside, I agree with you although I do put things in a different order. I care about plot and premise first, and character development second with genres such as sci-fi, tech-noir, cyberpunk, and the like. In fact, I agree with 90% of your points I just prioritize in a slightly different order if that makes sense.

Summer

It is a concern I have had with reaction channels since finding them at the beginning of the year, watching something great as a job can impact your enjoyment, having to give immediate reactions can impact it, and others loving it can give you the wrong idea

Einar Sigurðsson

This episode showed us the growth of human and Ferengi relationship from the pilot (and before) and brought the Dominion finally into view after being teased for a season. The plot elevated our characters where they had to face their issues to overcome a threat

llama

Assuming "we love star trek because most of it is written by people with conventional hair colours" is going to be in there somewhere at this point

EnigmaticPenguin

I’m uncomfortable with you guys existing bellow the waist. I just assumed you were like muppets.

Paul

You guys are character focused, a lot of the fanbase is idea and world focused. One thing I love about watching your reactions over the years is how you've made me care even more about character moments than I did in the past. I always did to an extent, but similar to how you view "the plot", it was more of an additional spice, not a satisfying main course. I'd say prior to finding your channel, character specific stories and moments were maybe 25-30% of why I loved the show. Now, it's bumped up to 35-40%. Bringing up the Chase, indeed, I'm one of those who really loved the episode because of the scope of the idea, I can dream in my mind of its implications and be endlessly entertained just by those musings and also pondering how it may apply to future episodes. It doesn't necessarily even matter if it ever does. But I think we understand each other well now, or at least I do. Wasn't at all surprised that neither of you orgasmed over The Jem'Hadar episode because as you say, it wasn't really about the folks we love. The implications might titillate you slightly, but not enough to make you giddy. I get it. It's like you were served a well-cooked but relatively bland chicken breast. Is it edible, maybe even slightly salty with a bit of cracked pepper, sure. But there's no character spice! Where's the spice?! lol Part of the fun is breaking down why you guys like and don't like different episodes. I'm such a nerd lmao.

D Jammers

The big problem with the the season finale, they were trying to do too much too fast. It didn't give the cast enough time to process and address it. "Oh wow they killed everyone on the Bajoran colony" move on we got other stuff.. "Oh wow they blew up a galaxy class ship." Yeah okay next next next. If they gave the characters some dialog, it would make it more real and meaningful.

River Acheron

Technically the first shared universe was the Monster "meets" and "verses" films of the 1940s. The 30's gave us the monsters, the 40's mashed them up. Frankenstein Meets the Wolfman etc.

Summer

Its true, it jumped from ‘don’t come near our unidentified territory’ to Sisko feeling they had to be ready quickly, maybe there were deleted scenes, I hate missing scenes like Alex hates names in the credits.

River Acheron

I will say Star Trek was the first shared television universe?

River Acheron

They know the episode is important but I think the point Josh was making is he doesn't care :P It's about what was ON screen at THAT moment. I don't watch TV that way personally but I do absolutely understand his point and how he takes enjoyment from what he watches. And it's a common viewing habit I would say. When I go into a finale, I retrain my brain to watch it in a different lens (with streaming that also counts for midseason finales). I tell myself to not judge this based on a regular episode merit. Josh doesn't really do that. A lot of people don't.

John M.

I just think it's impossible to watch 900 episodes and not have 40 or 50 where the consensus is going to be harshly against you. It's why we make overrated and underated lists. So burrowing down like this is interesting, but it's never going to make anyone happy because we're all full of inconsistencies. For example, The Bonding is a much worse "Oh no the plot!" than most episodes. But you like it so you forget that bit of it. But whatevs. We all maintain multitudes. DS9 is a good show, almost universally liked, so I'm not concerned about that. It's just a question of whether you hop on board in Season 1 (that's me now), season 2, season 3 (that was me when I was a teen) or season 4. In the end, just glad you run such a well-thought-out channel. Thanks for the good chat! Stop complaining about the credits, though. ;)

Numinous2019

Definitely agree about the reframing of the Ferengi (Quark's 2 diatribes to Sisko in this episode). Their interaction is the most consistent element of this episode. While I accept your point about the characters overcoming their issues to overcome the threat, (as someone has already said here) it was all presented in too little time.

Numinous2019

River Acheron, yes, that's a great summary of Josh's point of view. I don't think either Josh or Alex will be upgrading their rating of 'The Jem'Hadar' in the future. However, this episode couldn't be a more focused story, because.....well....let's just say that the former DS9 showrunner and the then current showrunner had the same idea at the same time, which was after this episode.

Actuarial Lurker

Gentlemen- Sometimes you are living your life and $hit just happens. A car crash kills a loved one, you get fired and lose your house... I think that the point of the DS9 Season 2 finale is that they were "just on a picnic" not trying to violate anyone's territory and all of a sudden a colony is destroyed, a big bad appears from a cloak, and a ship with 300+ crew on it are dead... The point WAS to come out of nowhere and shake you up the same way that the US was different on 9/12/2001 then it was on 9/10/2001.

Kaleigh

I know it would be a lot of work, but I’d love to see you eventually recap each season of TNG now that you’ve seen the whole thing and have time to let the themes and plots soak in. I’d love to see your changed opinions (maybe a new tier list?) for each episode. Like Alex saying now he’d give Half a Life an S.

PIG

I look forward to all two hours of this. Thank you for the interesting content, fella!!

Evan Guthrie

Terminator 2 spoiled the twist in the previews. Never watch previews.

Ken R

This is now obscure, but I think the first shows in a shared universe might be Petticoat Junction and Green Acres.

River Acheron

Those I never heard of but I thought maybe there could have been other examples ya. If we count spinoffs that was even a thing since the 60s right? And didn't Hanna Barbera have that laugh-a-limpics that brought all their characters together?

Evan Guthrie

This comment is both for J&A as well as to the patrons: Just because they did not like this one episode as much as many had hoped, that does not mean they will dislike what will come after it. This is not a spoiler to say: there is plenty of good stuff (character moments, execution, etc) that is woven into the upcoming episodes. Premise can't carry an episode.

Evan Guthrie

Possibly, but I think it's cope to outright say they didn't enjoy it because it's their job.

KingPin124

Is this going to YouTube soon?

Trekkie74205

Good point. I am not sure how this story wasn't about our characters. 3 main characters and a supporting character were being held or had their lives in danger. Every remaining main character left the station to rescue them.

Evan Guthrie

To clarify, I think people seeing J&A's reaction are applying that negative reaction (Josh still gave it a B) to all future episodes that deal with the Dominion because the premise is essentially the same: "Big evil bad guys no likey Federation." But like they discussed, premise carries very little weight if it's done poorly (or done well).

Summer

I agree this was more a general comment understanding how this can be a hard thing. As I am in my 40’s I have no idea what you meant by cope but I am sure I did not mean to be that way. See how easy it is to misunderstand writing. Jen and Bunny and Courney and Ames never explain why they like things or don’t they just watch, Jen, Courtney and Bunny might talk about it after.for twenty seconds for Jen and Courtney, but they rarely do retrospective or top lists either.

TinMan_7B9

GEM DAHAR? JEM HARAD? JAM RADAR?

Darin Wagner

It spoiled a surprise, not a twist. Didn't hurt the film's box office though.

Ken R

I'm not sure what the first spin off was, maybe Gomet Pyle from the Andy Griffith Show. Green Hornet guests on Batman in 67 too. By the 70s All In The Family and Mary Tyler Moore are spinning off shows left and right

Vina

There are (at least) two types of scifi fans: those who like the story and characters first, and those who like the world building first. A lot of Trek fans - I mean the huge Trek nerds like myself - love the story and plots but also love the world building and the speculative idea of what it would be like to live in that universe at least as much. They talk about ships and alien species and warp scales as much as they do about the characters. The latter can excuse and even enjoy an "oh no the plot" sort of situation like in the DS9 S2 finale because its fleshing out the story universe. I do agree though it was sort of weirdly executed with a lot of info dump, but lore nerds often are ok with infodumps because they're in service to the world building.

River Acheron

Comics did it way before the MCU too. Wolverine first appeared as a villain in a Hulk comic. :)

River Acheron

I read some of her books! I always thought it odd that she always primarily used poison as the murder method. But then I recently found out she was an expert on poisons in real life. She was a nurse I think? So I appreciated more what she wrote about. She knew her stuff! I also like how inventive she was with the killer. They all did it None of them did it The narrator did it The pretend dead one did it to others The dead one did it to himself (suicide) Even once a child did it! These twists had to be mindblowing at the time And in Halloween Party, the victims were children which even NOW is taboo as Hell I liked Agatha Christie because Agatha Christie had balls.

Naglfarius

Character over Plot any Day, Baby!

River Acheron

As to number 2: They would HATE Columbo!

Mark Wood

Vina You really need to clarify what is a huge Trek nerd. in My 60 years of watching, I've never been able to quantify anything that huge trek nerds as a group would universally agree on.

River Acheron

I don't think the term nerd in general has ever been, well, generalized. Nowadays my friends and I self-identify as geeks which is more akin to liking fringe media. Which is "in" now and if you're a geek you're a cool kid apparently? *shrugs* Then there are dorks. I don't know what that is other than a whale's penis. lol

TC Green

I just want to recommend some Trek related stuff for your guys to check out if you're interested and have time. First and absolutely foremost, the Futurama episode "Where No Fan Has Gone Before." It has most of the original cast minus Kelly and Doohan and you don't have to know anything about Futurama to enjoy it. In fact I recommend Futurama in general if you have never seen it. The second is the old computer game "25th Anniversary" and its sequel "Judgement Rites." Both have the entire cast of TOS doing the voices, with the second game being the last released performance of the TOS cast together as their characters(it was made after Star Trek 6). Both games take place during TOS and can be found on GOG or Steam. You can also find videos on YouTube of people playing them if you want an idea of what they are like. Just make sure it is the PC/DOS version of 25th Anniversary and not the Nintendo one. Two completely different games. Finally, the season 2 South Park episode "Rodger Ebert Should Lay off the Fatty Foods" is a direct spoof of TOS episode "Dagger of the Mind." I recommend giving that episode a rewatch and then checking out the South Park episode. Early South Park is filled with Star Trek references.

River Acheron

There was a hilarious TNG episode of Family Guy where the TNG cast reprises their roles.

TC Green

Oh yeah I forgot about that one

KingPin124

Thanks man. It’s just easier to pull up on my Xbox, rather than use the web browser.

TC Green

I have heard of it but never had a chance to play it.

River Acheron

I know the boys can't play it due to spoilers but I actually heard great things about Star Trek Online. I have seen SOME playthru and it looks like its World of Warcraft mechanics....IN SPACE! lol. Anyone play it?

Ryan Roach

They will learn it. Oh yes, they will.

Ryan Roach

Back in the day, there was a section of the fandom that derisively called the show "Deep Space 90210". Which if you don't know, there was a nighttime teen soap called Beverly Hills, 90210 in the 90's. The joke is that DS9 focused too much on feelings and personal relationships. You might find that comforting.

Sam Langanke

I appreciate that you've got the message. We'll see what you do with it.

Vina

Mark, what I mean by big Trek nerds are the people who hang out of the DaystromInstitute subreddit discussing warp drives, transporters, post-scarcity economies, and Youtubers like Rowan J. Coleman, OrangeRiver, and Steve Shives who puts out lore videos on Trek on these same sorts of topics (Shives also does more story/character related videos though).

THE LORE!!!

I think you haven't heard as much hype for Voyager because A. It's a more divisive show and B. It's hard to hype it up without ruining what it's actually about. Like DS9, you can talk about the character focus, and it doesn't really spoil anything. Voyager, it's hard for me to come up with things that are cool (and more importantly, unique) about it without completely giving away some spoiler-y details.

THE LORE!!!

Also, idea for a video: React to the theme song of Voyager like you did DS9 ahead of time. The theme is objectively well composed.

Brandon Blume

I don't always share your guys' opinions of many episodes. But I do respect your opinions and enjoy watching your reactions regardless. That's why I'm here. And it's just a joy to see new people clinging onto something I've loved almost all my life. You explain your position well. I think what many people might have a problem with in your "oh no the plot" reactions is that they happen right at the beginning of the episode and it's not always apparent that you are even giving the episode a chance when it happens. You see the plot coming and it's almost like a knee-jerk reaction at this point. It doesn't bother me so much, but I can see why others react the way they do. I'm not even saying this is wrong or is a problem, I'm just proposing a possible explanation. Many times you're justified in your observations by the end of the episode, but maybe some people feel that because of that initial knee-jerk reaction that you've suddenly made your mind up and there's no way that the plot could ever win you over. I know that's not true because it can and it has, clearly (which you've explained with Lessons). Maybe it's the fact that it's so constant and predictable. If there's a nice character moment in the intro and suddenly a plot starts and you get all disappointed right away because you think you know how it's gonna go, I think many might think that's an unfair assessment. Especially if it's an episode they love. To me the whole "bait and switch" as you call it was just what 90s TV WAS to me. I always expected it. I kind of think of things the other way around than you guys I think so it doesn't bother me as much. While you guys think of the very nice character moments being interrupted by the inevitable plot, I think of it as the plot always came first, and the writers got to inject some nice character moments INTO that. Sometimes it became the whole episode and sometimes it was just something extra added on that was just really nice to get rather than not get. The plot was going to happen either way, but getting the character moments made it a bonus. The way it's presented (especially to viewers more used to how TV is written nowadays) I can understand why it seems like great writing and character stuff being interrupted, but I believe it's more like the plot had some extra seasoning that made it tastier. Sometimes the seasoning is better than the dish, but hey what are ya gonna do? lol I'm not saying in any way to do anything different. Please be yourselves! There's nothing wrong with it ultimately. I don't even think you're doing anything wrong. I'm only suggesting a perspective you may not have considered (or maybe you have!). One of the first times this took me aback was in Deja Q, an episode I love. I really thought (and still do think) that the plot and the aliens going after Q makes sense and really drives the REAL plot which is Q's coming to grips with the realities of being a mortal human. And Data being there kind of as a guide. And how he goes out of his way and endagers himself to PROTECT Q. I love love love it. I know you've explained your misgivings with it (to me directly, actually, in a reply on the edited YT video comment I made), but I still don't fully understand it. To me I thought the plot with the aliens was a great foil for the character development of Q and Data AND Picard to an extent. I thought it was all fascinating. It was just surprising to me that you reacted with such disdain to it and couldn't see any value in it. But again, totally cool! I don't have a problem with that. I really enjoy seeing your perspectives on these episodes that I've known off by heart since I was like 8 or 9 years old as they were coming out and realizing new things about them I never considered. Anyway, long comment but ultimately just want to say....I love the videos and I'll keep watching 'em! You guys rock.

Brandon Blume

I played the open beta when it first came out. Loved it. I became part of a fleet (guild) at one point. My starship was the USS Enclave. Great game. Haven't played it in ages and ages though. Initially the game was kind of iffy (especially with interstellar space travel) but they really refined it over time and made some very good patch updates.

Ryan Roach

And then later they can react to the Enterprise theme song. Heh.

David

You guys don't think about Star Trek in quite the same way as I do. I'm a little more invested in the unconnected lore/plot stuff (and the ships!), though the character moments are still my favorites. I also have seen it all before, so that definitely changes the context I have for episodes/moments. That's why I love hearing your reactions (and especially the discussions afterward). Your perspective often leads me to appreciate and think more critically about aspects I hadn't considered before. The best reactions are the ones where you have a wildly different response to something than I do.

Raphael Gaytan

I’ve been meaning to say this to you both for quite some time, Josh and Alex…and this video is perfectly appropriate to bring it up… Have you noticed how elevated your conversations are now? How much your thinking is up since you began your Star Trek journey? I’ve been watching you guys since your early days of TOS and, perhaps it’s just me, but comparing your discussions now in contrast to your conversations then is like night and day! Whether it’s talk of wormholes and time paradoxes or character and script development, you both have just grown. Please don’t think I’m being condescending…I really have enjoyed watching your evolution on this journey. As a child, I used to blow my friends away by using big words I learned from Mr. Spock! As a teenager, my philosophies of life echoed one particular Jean-Luc Picard! I think Star Trek, no matter which series, has changed us all for the better! That is the gift Gene gave to Humanity!🖖

Forbidden Donut

And aside from the character stuff between the four who went to survey that planet, I think it's definitely a big moment for Sisko as a character. He is the Federation officer who makes first contact with the Dominion, and by the end of this episode, while he still has all of his previous goals and missions on his plate regarding Bajor and dealing with the Cardassians, now he knows that he's in charge of a space station sitting at the mouth of a wormhole where at any given moment this new, very serious threat could come out, and he's the first line of defense against them. He knows how serious that is, and as he says at the end, he intends to be ready for them. That's a huge deal for Sisko.

Shane Coombs

The most unique thing I can say about Voyager without spoiling anything is that I think its cast of characters is my favorite in the franchise but the stories they are given are my least favorite. I really enjoy watching the characters as characters, but I kindof hate the show itself most of the time.

Shane Coombs

I think there is a deeper disconnect than this because I think that the majority of Star Trek fans to like character and that it is a big part of what we watch the franchise for, but there seems to be some disconnect or difference of outlook on just what it means to care about character. Some of the episodes J&A have had the biggest difference of opinion on with fans have been episodes that to me are pure character episodes but which they still didn't really like. For instance, Deja Q is essentially a 100% character episode with only very superficial plot elements, but they didn't like it much. Q-Pid has more plot than Deja-Q, but it is still a very strong character episode. They liked Chain of Command Part 1 more than Part 2 even though Part 1 is where most of the plot in that two parter is and part 2 is mostly character stuff. - so there has to be something different about what they mean when they talk about character vs. what many others mean.

Paul

I think the variance is in their keyword, execution.

KingPin124

Only one man would dare give me the raspberry!!

Doctor Pulaski

This episode was all about Quarks speech, it was a Quark show. Jake & Nogs fun runabout shenanigans (with stakes) continued the fun camping vibe. Kira face when the Odyssey blew up… lots of great moments. Solid B episode.

KingPin124

Hey guys. Just a few thoughts to share: - I think you'll enjoy Voyager, as I think you'll really like some of the characters. Don't worry. - You have a very rare opportunity to view this all as adults in release order. I'm older than you and even TNG started before I was 2 years old. Also, my parents couldn't afford cable tv for much of the early and mid 90's. I didn't get to see things in release order. I watched whatever came on the TV whenever I could and you get the cards you're dealt. You're almost spoiled at the moment. - Seeing things as an adult helps you experience these shows differently. This show absolutely affected me and how I grew up. That being said, can you imagine being 7 or 8 years old and watching Lessons or something and getting the same appreciation for it? Of course not. That's how we often get reactions for certain episodes and characters imprinted in our minds from watching this as children and need to try and set that aside to appreciate episodes in a different light as adults. - I really like Alex's "plate of food" analogy. Makes total sense. - I do have some "food for thought". See what I did? Just stuff to think about. Not trying to be a dick. -> Watch the episode that you're given. Alex even said that sometimes his mood can affect his reactions on the type of episode. No kidding!! Guys, we're all human here. You can TRY your best to be totally neutral going into each episode, but that's impossible because you're not an android with no emotions. Sometimes you're in the mood for an action movie or a comedy or a horror movie or whatever. I bet some days you're in the mood for a nice peaceful character episode and then some aliens show up and start shooting people! I guess that ruins your picnic pretty quickly, hey? When I say to just watch the episode you're given, I mean I know you wanted a 44 minute camping trip, but that last episode is called "The Jem'Hadar" not "The Camping Trip", lol! I'm sorry they took that away after 15 min or whatever, but that was never going to be the whole thing. Just know that there's enough VARIETY of everything that you'll be able to get your fill of all types of episodes in there. With all that said, just like with Alex's story of Half a Life, I bet you anything that later on you'll go back and watch some episodes with so much more love for them did you did after those initial viewings. <3

JoeMama47

Brandon Sanderson talks about how an author makes a promise at the start of a story with how they set things up. So either they need to deliver what they promised or use the promise to subvert expectations to a specific end. "Oh no! The plot!" Means they aren't delivering what they promised and they aren't using that promise to set up an effective twist.

Loot Narsbaar

I enjoyed this conversation. I think it'll talk some people down from the ledge. re: the future of DS9 I wonder if the s2 finale could be enhanced by re-editing the last few minutes to cut out the unnecessary exposition and what not.

Ca$hWednesday

Great conversation. Glad you did this.

paultardspambot .

hey spoiler, maybe the Dominion never shows up again (kidding)

tyranusfan

It's time to play the music! It's time to light the lights! It's time to react to Star Trek, with Alex and Josh tonight!

paultardspambot .

So I think the thing here is boring sci fi plots dont have stakes. You say this one had no personal stakes- but for those of us enjoying it the stakes are to the federation and the status quo which informs our characters and what they are going to experience. Its not just "oh some sci fi problem we resolved." The bait and switch was an intentional device you didn't like, but it worked for some. The Dominion was first introduced in an episode that was about Quark and an unusual relationship- at the time it barely seeemd important. Also- how much more could we have got out of the camping trip? It feels like without omething else added, it would have been more of the same, and while we got what was good, more of that would have gotten tedious because it would be the same character beats over and over. The Quark and Sisko stuff DOES keep going on, but in a different setting. One problem is the climax of that, the speech about humans and ferengi, makes a point but also sets up something that would be spoilerish if I explciitly connected it, but its a theme we already saw with the "Maquis dont live in paradise" I think a suggestion here- we've seen how things in DS9 don't always work the way the federation wants them to. So to maintain federation ideals in those compromised situations is ripe for character exploration. Here, we have the idea of a potential existential threat to the Federation. This idea was brought up in "Hugh". When you have an overpowered enemy, can you defeat them and still live up to the principles you're fighting for, knowing that humanity can turn ugly when things gest desperate? Do you need to compromise on some of those principles to preserve utopia? "it's easy to be a saint in paradise" So what do our characters do when that paradise is facing an existential threat? I feel like these themes have been set up throughout the show, and the whole interaction bewteen Quark and Sisko is very much in line with these themes and what is and has been set up. Also, the religious/spiritual aspects have set up another idea- what effect does suffering have on people's souls and whether they "remain righteous while walking through the shaodw of the valley of death"

Nolan

Congratulations, you have now ingrained in my head their request for the meme of Eris shooting Sisko with her telepath orb labelled as "The Plot," only instead it's a plane labeled "The Plot" flying near a building. 😬

River Acheron

This is Comment of the Year! :) Agreed over 9000%

Nolan

I don't think "The Jem'Hadar" is an S-tier, but I do think there are things in the episode itself your initial reactions caused you to overlook. The Teaser being a character moment with Jake and Sisko, in which one of the things we see Jake asks his father to do is learn how to pilot a runabout. Lo-and-behold, after the Jem'Hadar shows up, Jake and Nog try to escape for help and Jake has to learn how to fly a runabout. Sisko and Quark spend the entire episode at odds with each other, but by the end they've learned to work together and appreciate the talents of the other to the point that they BOTH confront Eris at the end, defending the station together as comrades. Heck, even Eris' exposition dump has a thematic relation to camping as it could be read as her telling ghost stories around a campfire. Quark's comparison of Humanity and Ferengi offers contast when the Dominion comes along and, according to Eris, acts the way Quark describes Humanity of the past, but on a Galactic scale. Through that, Quark can see how fortunate he is dealing with the Humanity he has, rather than the humanity of the past. Yeah, the plot Kool-aid Man-ed through the episode, but it transformed the character work into a different shape, rather than overshadowed it completely.

Jonathon Tsagris

You can go so far as to say that fundamentally - these questions you pose are actually what DS9 as a whole is about. The plot specifics are just the mechanism through which the show asks and answers these questions

EnigmaticPenguin

Regarding Alex changing his score from B- to S for “Half a life”, it might be an interesting top ten or discussion to go over TNG episodes you’ve substantially changed your option on since first viewing.

Thomas Cole

The first rule of Target Audience Club is "don't spoil the fucking show" :). So saying anything about Voyager is hard to do because even it's concept is spoilery

Thomas Cole

Some things I took out of watching this: -I think your issue with "THE PLOT" isn't actually with the plot, it is with the plot being divorced from what starts the Episode. compare "The Jem'hadar" to "The Wire" both had something kinda random happen to kick off the plot, except for The Wire, the differing Cardassian to Human perspective is a through line for the entire episode, though not a main part. So I think you need to change that to lack of plot/character integration. -What you are talking about it "Death of the Author". Once someone has finished a work, and presented it, it it there for you to consume, without comment or input from either who wrote it, acted in it, any of those who made it. The issues with it are: -"everything is a product of when it was made". you can't divorce a work from when it was made, as it does influence decisions that while they may not come into your thinking, they existed, and influenced it. ST6 being a great example, it was a tie up of all the Klingon stories that had gone before, as they were an aesop of interactions between the USA and USSR, so in context of the time, it made more sense. for you, that doesn't factor in, but does for others, which is why different reactions.

Loot Narsbaar

What is ironic about this discourse is The Bonding (while I do like the episode) is the ultimate Oh no! The Plot! episode. It’s a rug pull when the magic ailen shows up.

Vina

Dom-jot Bar? Gom Jabbar?

Deep Red

Very well articulated. I think there is a difference between Character Development and Characterization. You are talking about Characterization. Where characters are not necessarily changing or going through serious emotional turmoil, but we are being shown aspects of their character by how they behave in scenes. I don't need character development in stories. But I need characterization. One of my favorite series is Sherlock Holmes and there is almost no character development. But I still love the characters because of how well they are "characterized".

Target Audience

Yes, I would much prefer if the alien plot wasn’t there, but at least it’s still caused and driven by the characters’ grief which is the point of the episode, rather than the alien being unrelated to Marla or Jeremy Aster in any way.

Avaria

Something that can be said of Voyager that is true, hypes it up, and is not spoilery.. Voyager is the most consistently streamed series of the entire franchise; meaning more people CHOOSE to watch it more often than any other Star Trek show. How's that?

Avaria

I recently re-listened to the Delta Flyers discussion of "The Jem'Hadar" (can't recommend it for the boys since Garrett and Robbie are pretty bad about VOY cross-chatter) and I really appreciated all of Armin Shimmerman's contributions, especially his breakdown of all the Dominion characters. (The poems were pretty good that week, too.)

Avaria

Ah, yes. The ACEU (The Abbott & Costello Extended Universe) ;p

Avaria

Storytelling, as a whole, also evolves and shifts over time. Emphasis is placed in different areas, resulting in different experiences. As an audience we are naturally drawn to the narrative structures that most appealed to us during the most formative period of our exposure to them. In less stuffy terms: stories are told differently today than they were 10 years ago, and much differently than they were 100 years ago. Audience expectations have similarly changed. Consensus can only happen when presentation and expectation overlap. And yet, the beauty of Star Trek is that because the themes are universal, the settings allegorical and the characters largely archetypal, the odds of achieving that overlap -- even if the overlap itself is tiny -- are huge. It's what elevates it to nearly mythic status.

Deep Red

I think you guys did a good job of articulating your thoughts :) Always appreciate the discourse. Reaction content tends to be very disposable because of how lacking in substance it usually is. And I really appreciate the insight that you bring to this beloved hobby of ours

Loot Narsbaar

And that’s a fair point to be sure

ellknii

"That is the opposite of a secret". ;)

Matchstick Jose

You guys unintentionally delivered your own season-ending cliffhanger! Forget whether Picard survives the Borg or how our crew handles the Dominion. Now we have: Will Josh and Alex hate everything about DS9 that fans love?!? Tune in… next year! Now enjoy some reruns.

Actuarial Lurker

Nolan- sorry about that! I worked two blocks away from Ground Zero on 9/11. When I came out of the subway to run into my building at around 8:52am, a burning Verizon phone bill that must have come out of the hole in the first tower where someone had died, floated toward me like confetti. When I went up to my office the second plane flew right past our building at 9:03 am and the secretaries were screaming as they watched it from the other side of our 30th floor office hit the second tower about 2000 feet away. We all evacuated down 30 floors to the street and stood near the Battery Tunnel overpass to watch what was happening when the second tower hit was the first to fall, and I was one of those people running full speed to get the F away from that debris cloud! Luckily I did not breathe in that crap and get lung disease like a lot of people who inhaled pulverized sheet rock and asbestos... It was natural for me to just think, hey you are minding your own business going to work and then CHAOS. The ultimate "character development" was what people did with that moment- did they sacrifice themselves like the first responders to help others, did they hate all people from a certain culture from then on, did they feel guilty- why didn't I die? Did they say "Thank You God!" and become better spouses, parents etc...events like this DO change characters AND reveal them The guys who tried to knock down the WTC in 1993 were found guilty in March 1994 and the DS9 finale aired in June 1994 so must have been written right after the trial was all over the news. I know Josh was saying that they try not to change their opinion based on - oh this was happening when the show was written...BUT something THAT BIG WAS happening and given the themes of exploited Bajorans, angry Maquis and Big Bads lashing out disproportionate to grievance I don't see how they could ignore this.... If they had less of Eris just reading out the plot at the end as if we were brain damaged or made the finale a 2 parter then I think it would be better received. I think it was a B and not an S from the "lets wrap this up in 1 episode" syndrome

TinMan_7B9

Let's just say that judging from your reactions to certain previous Star Trek episodes, you're going to enjoy most of Voyager. But you are also going to hate some of it because of certain characteristics of the show I suspect you won't like. But what else is new? Jump in and enjoy the ride.

TinMan_7B9

I don't see that alien mother as an "Oh no the plot" moment. The whole episode is about dealing with grief and that fake mother is just a tool to visualize another aspect of grief: the boy's struggle with temptation to ignore reality. I don't think that episode could survive 50 minutes of constant solemn mourning.

Loot Narsbaar

I see it’s as The Plot because it’s a sci-fi magic ailen threat and now the kid is being in danger of being kidnapped and Picard has to stop the ailen. In fairness, the threat is tied into the character threads of the story (much much more than in the S2 finale), but it would be a stronger show without it

Summer

Just remember what Q said to Picard about embracing new experiences in the TNG finale

JRandolph

I have to say, in some ways, you're better off knowing there are seven seasons of a show to look forward to. Back in the day, cancellation, or actors possibly not renewing a contract, was a worry. One of the things that made the "Best of Both Worlds" cliffhanger nerve-wracking was a rumor that Patrick Stewart wouldn't renew and was leaving the show. It was all-too-believable that Riker saying "Fire" was the end of Picard.

Summer

As a Holmes fan, that is so completely true, enough that other authors when crafting well can take those characters and make new stories that still fit but add more character

LonghillAndy

Maybe a pre episode 1 discussion of what they would like to see more of, different, thoughts etc like they did with ds9?

KingPin124

Shit man, you’re smart!! I never thought about any of that. The part about the runabout being so obvious and I didn’t even think of it.

Actuarial Lurker

Let's be blunt, the vast majority of reactors are glorified Beavis and Buttheads- "that was cool, heh heh, heh heh", "please like and subscribe" and don't say anything about the directors, writers, acting, plot, cinematography, choices. You guys are actually engaged and run a professional ship, so to speak

Actuarial Lurker

They should have made it a two parter with Quark staring Dead Eyed at Sisko like he DID when the Jem Hadar blow up the Odyssey- with a fade to credits...then episode 27 could have Quark showing the locking mechanism to Sisko in his command office behind a closed door where we could just see their expressions while Eris wandered around "exploring" the station. Garak could then have used his perceptive nature to drop some hints to Bashir about how "suss" she was. Odo could lock her in the Brig while Kira and Dax debate whether Eris seemed trustworty and whether Quark was just paranoid...then they could have had her be confronted and "beam out". That would have made the episode more emotionally intelligent and "real" by seeing teh major characters have different reactions...

Nolan

Thanks. I guess I paid just barely enough attention in English classes. 😅

captveg

I'm not so sure. Columbo depends on an entirely different principle of entertainment: There's enjoyment in watching people being superb at their craft. The best episodes of Columbo also have very clever, unforseen ways in which the final damning clue is discovered. Like the TNG crew knowing the real Picard wouldn't lead a round of singing a shanty, it's seeing how the perfect crime cracks that provides the drama.

StealthMomo

This journey is enjoyable because of you guys. I respect both your positive and negative opinions and you articulate them well. Alex's interest in performance, story, practical effects, and wrestling moves is informed and Josh's appreciation of cinematography, directing, pacing, and story structure is insightful. I mean, there is a reason I shell out 10 bucks a month for this stuff. Because you get it. You get Star Trek. You get TOS. You understand the limitations they had and the ground they broke. You appreciated the sometimes-cheesy, shoestring budget practical effects. The unique characters, interactions, and subject matter. You love it enough to find its flaws and love it anyway. As Frye said in Futurama "79 episodes. About 30 really good ones." A show you began with some skepticism, with your original goal to get to TNG, turned into an obsession. As a 64 year-old Trekker who has been obsessed with the show since I was 10, glued to the screen watching the reruns weeknights on WPIX-11 in NYC... I highly approve. Now you have completed the 7 year journey for the TNG crew. You will find their movies will also enchant and delight you, as well as piss you off and disappoint you — in no particular order. And you are now 1/3 of the way into DS9, which I believe is ultimately the strongest all-around series in the franchise. Soon comes Voyager, which I believe is ultimately the weakest all-around series — although it does have some bright spots, including what I consider to be one of the Top 5 episodes in the franchise. From there, the sky's the limit. Whole lot of trekkin' left to do boys.

Schnabley

Oh, and stream it I’m sure we will all fine your comments fascinating 🤨

Worf and Riker Ride Again

I enjoy Voyager, I think the average quality is good and there are some fantastic episodes. I can’t remember too many boring episodes either, the bad ones are hilariously bad

Worf and Riker Ride Again

Talking of games, did anyone used to play Bridge Commander? Story wise it takes places well after DS9 so tons of spoilers but the gameplay was great

Worf and Riker Ride Again

Yeah 100% agree. I still like the finale but it could have been 3 episodes worth. Part 1 visiting the colony, the camping trip, mostly character stuff and then building the tension and the mystery. Part 2 where all the action happens - the Bajoran colony is destroyed, the Odyssey is sent out and also destroyed raising the stakes as to whether everyone is going to get home. Part 3 the escape and aftermath, showing what the colony meant to Kira and how Starfleet deals with the loss of one of its most powerful ships. Also they should have introduced the colony and Odyssey earlier in the series. Although them being destroyed is shocking, we ultimately don’t care as the captain has a few lines and about one minute of screen time.

Malamute

Watch Farscape! :-)

Danny Loop

When you said "Sometimes the seasoning is better than the dish" it reminded me of something my brother once said: "Food is a vehicle for sauces." Just a funny thing that you made me remember.

brqby

Regarding crossovers between DS9 and TNG, there were other examples before that. Like when Jessica Fletcher (Murder, She Wrote) appeared in Magnum, P.I.

Jon1701

I love Star Trek. I love TNG. I love that you love The Bonding and Lessons, two episodes I really do not care for. There’s something for everyone. That’s what makes it so great.

Tim Nikiforovs

Appreciate the additional clarification. Don't worry, I'm certainly not running for the door because of the Jem'Hadar reaction. I can certainly understand criticism about the plot unfolding without much input or action from the main cast, and they're just kind of there and irrelevant to the events. Certainly there's room to discuss how such eps could be executed better. Sometimes though a heavily setup focused episode can open the door to much better stories for our characters down the road, which is why I tend to be more forgiving of them. At any rate, I'm still looking forward to DS9 S3 and the start of Voyager, and of course Generations.

reactive1

You guys should watch “Heroes”.

BN13

I would be the opposite of you guys then. When it comes to Star Trek I am "Idea First," and if character stuff also happens, that's the bonus. Also with the Chase, the idea that appealed to me so much in that episode wasn't the main one of "all of these races were seeded by this ancient alien race." That's just the surface. For me, the true idea of that episode was showing how far all of the alien races of today fell from what was originally intended for them. That ancient race created this puzzle because we were all meant to love and understand each other and solve the puzzle by cooperating and working together. But instead, we saw that all of these races like the Federation, Klingons, Romulans, and Cardassians, are all adversaries to the point where they are all each killing planets and destroying life just so one can one-up the other and take the whole puzzle for themselves. And to top it off, at the end when they were told the true message, instead if them being humbled by what they had learned, and what all they had done, it just fell on deaf ears. Except for Picard and that one Romulan, showing that at least there might still be hope. But I think this message is also very relevant to us today. The goal is we are all as humans supposed to be working together the way that Earth does in Star Trek. But instead, we keep fighting against each other over meaningless crap. But some people do still get the message, and because of that, perhaps maybe, one day. But I agree, all of the character stuff falls away once that plot is introduced. I'm fine with that though, because I would have been fine even if the professior Galen stuff hadn't have been in that episode at all. Again, because when it comes to Star Trek, I am "Idea First" "Characters Second." Would I have enjoyed an episode that focused solely on Picard and Galen? Yes. But I would have enjoyed an episode that fully focused on the ancient alien plot even more. And that's why The Chase is one of my favorite episodes of Season 6. Similarly, I also love The Bonding, but I love it for the alien plot because the alien plot is all about exploring the IDEA of grief. Do I like what you like too, which is the characters actually grieving? Absolutely. But to me, the characters grieving aren't what the episode is about. The characters grieving is there to further accent the episode's goal of exploring the idea of grief and why it's needed, which is mostly explored through the alien plot, and demonstrated by the characters. That's also why I enjoy The Jem'Hadar. In an episode like that where the character stuff completely falls away, I usually don't even notice because I'm not watching primarily for the character stuff. That's just a bonus. If the plot or idea that takes over is interesting enough, that's all I need to be fully invested. That's also why I don't mind stuff like Eris's exposition. I found that exposition interesting. That episode got me wanting to learn about and see more from this big bad they're setting up. I agree with you though that the Klingon in The Chase was terrible, and that episode failed a lot in its execution. I wish that we both could have gotten the properly fleshed out stories that we wanted in the form of an epic movie or excellent 2-parter where both stories were more intermingled and had room to breathe. I would have liked that better than the TNG movies we actually got.