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UNCUT - Parallax (VOY S1E3) | Star Trek Journey 342 (Patreon)

Published:
2026-02-13 13:00:11
Edited:
2026-02-15 03:15:15
Imported:
2026-09
Tags:
stj

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Trekkie74205

New design. The nacelles go up for warp so the ship won't hurt the fabric of space. No need to worry about speed limits that way. I know it's been on your mind a lot. lol

Summer

Such a good episode

Jonathon Tsagris

Janeway was a science officer - she mentions serving as science officer under Tom's father in the pilot. Sisko was an engineer and Picard was a pilot (and all round nerd)

Brendon Waldron

Damn, I didn't remember this episode being good, all I remembered was arguing and weird anomaly/time travel shit. I'll take it.

Zenlike Creature

Being one of those Star Trek fans who hasn't held Voyager in that high a regard, watching this back of the first time in years, I have to say that the show gets underway with a solid first episode after the opening feature length. There's some new faces, good interpersonal dynamics, tension and conflict set up with a good sci-fi element to serve the drama, finishing, as you say, with Torres becoming Chief Engineer. Glad you guys enjoyed it, too.

D Jammers

"Aye Sir, but can't we just have the nacelles permanently angled that way?" .... .... "You're fired !"

Jonathon Tsagris

The Doctor complained in this episode that people don't turn him off. I think we can just assume that people are coming into sickbay for whatever reason, turning him on, then just leaving him like that.

Worf and Riker Ride Again

This episode actually has a lot of rewatch value, I think they did an extremely good job with all the character stuff, especially in showing how Chakotay is in a really difficult position. I personally think it's a great episode for his character - he has to manage more competing interests than anyone else and ends up being correct, despite Janeway's doubts. I love the scene where he and Janeway are arguing, they both have completely valid points and it's difficult to choose a side. The acting is superb.

THE LORE!!!

I have countless criticisms of this show (still love it though), but I can't deny it starts off stronger than the others of the time.

Jonathon Tsagris

There's a pretty strongly held opinion in the fandom that aside from maybe Nimoy himself, Nobody in the entirety of Star Trek has portrayed a Vulcan as well as Tim Russ did on voyager.

Matchstick Jose

Boy, I love the interpersonal conflict, but this technobabble is like over 9000!

Matchstick Jose

Do they ever actually mention this in the show, or is it just something they put in the bible and never actually referenced?

Derek Locke

As far as this episode, I think we're just supposed to assume that someone activated The Doctor off-screen after Kes turned him off and didn't deactivate him when they left. Probably Paris since he's supposed to be learning to be a field medic. That's my head canon anyway!

Brendon Waldron

Or the various crew members coming in complaining of headaches...

THE LORE!!!

Why Rob Bowman left Paramount: they used to have 8 days to shoot episodes and they reduced it to 7 to reduce costs. He found it to be extremely unpleasant.

Summer

That would be ChatGPt’s reaction to creating photos

Jonathon Tsagris

The warp speed scale is weird. The writer's guide for the show had a formula to work out what a given warp factor was supposed to equate to; but it wasn't always strictly adhered to. They also changed the formula completely between TOS and TNG, so Warp numbers mentioned in TNG onwards aren't comparable to TOS. Under the TNG scale warp 1 is the speed of light, warp 2 is 10x the speed of light, warp 3 is 39x the speed of light... etc. for reference warp 9 is 1560x the speed of light. Warp 5 is 213x the speed of light so you can see why Starfleet must have been really pissed off with the events of Force of Nature.

Breakingthenotion

The cast are instantly like able and Voyager have the stronger first season in the Berman era.

Forbidden Donut

So, the other engineer gets called a dick after he says something snotty, but earlier when we learn Torres has a temper tantrum and breaks his nose in three places, where she made it physical first in the shoving match, nothing bad to say? *Spock eyebrow raise*

Trekkie74205

I don't recall if it's mentioned in an episode. I have just read way too many interviews with Rick Sternbach who designed Voyager. A lot of good stories about the process and the producers intentions with decisions

Joshua Gudiso

The effect preceeding the cause reminds me of Christopher Nolan's Tenet. 'Don't try to understand it, feel it."

misti-step

bellana is a main character so she gets a pass 😅

Matchstick Jose

Now imagining a scenario where Geneviève Bujold is cast, they realize she’s not working out and kill her off after one season, and then beg Michelle Forbes to join the show and take over as the lead, and she says: "For the love of God, stop asking."

Ryan

Mixed bag for me. I love all the spicy character interactions and the idea that these two crews aren't all going to be thrilled about being jammed together into one. That's why it's a letdown that Torres goes from pariah to chief engineer in one episode. I would have liked to see that arc stretch over part of the season while she gains Janeway's trust. And the congratulations from the other engineer at the end was a super-'90s "everyone goes to bed happy" kind of trope. It was jarring how fast everything fell into place. Then again, I loved the BSG reboot, so what do I know. I will say that Voyager is remarkably self-assured right out of the gate, more than I even remembered. Clearly they took some serious lessons from the eight years of Star Trek that had just come before.

Forbidden Donut

LOL it's the meme: B'Elanna: 'Lookin' good, Susan' Susan, 'Oh, you!' Lt. Carey: 'Lookin' good, Susan' Susan, on the phone, 'Hello, human resources?!'

Sam Langanke

VOY is not my favorite but I always liked it. But i worried you guys wouldn't care for it. Because of the Braga type SciFi. Because of the Tekknobabble. Because of some characters. Maybe because of Janeway. Seems like I am wrong. At least for now.

Keith S

I think that the new engine configuration makes Voyager the fastest starship built to date. It's mentioned that it has a sustainable speed of warp 9.975. The fastest the Enterprise ever went was about 9.8 and that was pushing it.

Keith S

The Bajorin woman is played by Martha Hacket. She also appeared on DS9 as the Romulan who gets "shot" in the back by the Jem'hadar.

Daniel Garrett

STRONG 2ND EP💥 Technobabble balanced out by crew interactions and meaningul character-building. Loved the tension between Janeway and Chakotay. Knew J&A would appreciate the dynamics of this one. PS 👁 - In the pilot, Janeway tells Paris that she had been the Science Officer on the USS Al-Batani serving under Captain Owen Paris, Tom's dad. Credits were still roling on that scene, so it was easy to miss. But that speaks to your observation about Janeway's scientific knowledge. FUN FACT: 🤡😹 At the time Genevieve Bujold left the role of Janeway, it was said that she based her interpretation of the character on that one line of dialogue, and played Janeway as a scientist first. They were right to let her go based on her low-key perfomance/mis-read of the character. But she probably would have been fine in this particular ep.

Darren

Yeah I like this one - The character stuff is great, there’s some strong scenes with the crew. For me tho it’s the technobabble stuff that kinda weighs the episode down a little.

Matchstick Jose

Somebody asked DS9 writer Robert Hewitt Wolfe recently about Trek and technobabble, and I thought his answer was informative: “Horrible. I hated it. But Rick Berman thought it was essential for the show. He loved the speculative scifi stuff, even though it often ended up requiring a lot of 'blah-blah-blah science blah-blah' dialogue, which I (and Ira and pretty much all the other writers) thought was no fun to write, no fun to perform, and mostly just noise for the audience. We tried to do as little of it as possible as the show progressed.”

Reality Strikes

For the Record, Voyager is my second favorite just behind DS9. I’d explain more but that would contain too many spoilers. My prediction is when DS9 and Voyager are finished you’ll like them more than TNG. Mark this comment down.

Rangsk

SPOILER FREE ANSWERS: 1. In "Caretaker," Janeway is talking to Tom Paris and says she served as Science Officer under Paris's father. This is why she knows the science/engineering stuff. She was like the Spock or Dax for that ship. 2. Rob Bowman "moved on" from Star Trek as a way to further his career. He became heavily involved in another show as both director and producer which I'm sure kept him busy. I'm not mentioning the show because I don't know if you'd consider that a spoiler. So, no drama there.

Trekkie74205

Guess it is actually in print as well. According to Star Trek Encyclopedia, 3rd ed., p. 555 these nacelles did in fact prevent damage to subspace.

deskmerc

With regards to Voyager's nacelles moving around, this is described as "variable geometry pylons", which alter the angle of the warp nacelles when power is applied to the warp systems. Voyager's drive is a "green drive", designed to not cause the problems as seen in TNG's Force of Nature, where they implemented a warp speed limit on all ships. Naturally Starfleet develops engines that don't cause this problem at scale, and the design features implemented on all classes of starship. (Defiant, for example, also has green drives)

GamingHour2018

there is a content creator on Tiktok that has said that Janeway is what encouraged her to study science while in college, that she looks to Janeway as a role model for young women like her. and honestly thats pretty cool that young women have a role model like Janeway to look up to to get them interested in the sciences.

Summer

I didn’t see Voyager until I was an adult, technically I don’t think there were many tv characters I had as heroes, Gem might be close, I know I liked Keiko when I saw a few TNG episodes when I was a kid. But books and music were more my thing than tv as a kid.

Scribe31oz

Pretty sure that when Janeway introduced herself to Paris on Earth, she mentioned she was the Science Officer on Admiral Paris's former ship.

StealthMomo

I have to admit when I'm wrong. I had somehow forgotten that I had enjoyed the first few episodes. I had forgotten how good the pilot was. We shall see how I feel moving forward. I know there is a reason I remember some of the great stories in Voyager. But I also know there is a reason it is my least favorite show in the franchise. There are a couple of changes of lore in the future that I most defiantly am not okay with. But voicing them would definitely be spoilers, so... I love how you guys pay attention to and acknowledge the directors, the music and production staff. These notations are often a revelation to me.

Jon1701

I love that people love Voyager. For me, it does hit the highs, but not as often as DS9 and TNG. We are still in the golden era of Trek here. Will be interesting to see what the boys think as the series progresses. A strong start but, there are a lot of growing pains to come. Bring on Season 4! 😂

Forbidden Donut

It's been heartwarming so far to revisit Voyager again with you two and realize that, even though I think TNG and DS9 are clearly better, I do love Voyager too, and I'm glad I'm back to see it all again.

Shawn Indigo

In the pilot, Janeway mentioned serving as a science officer. Makes for an interesting captain I would say ;)

StealthMomo

Warp formulas are based on geometric progression. Ex. Warp 1 = Speed of light. Warp 2 = 8x SoL, Warp 3 = 27x SoL, Warp 4 = 84x SoL and so on. Top Speed in TOS was Warp 8 (512x SoL) and once in an emergency they hit Warp 9 (729x SoL).

Phenomenon (Doo - Dooo - Dah - Doo - Doo)

Kes remembered to turn the Doctor off because she's kind, polite and considerate. Most of the crew (at this point) aren't giving the Doctor a second thought once they leave sickbay, so he's stuck on his own until someone else shows up

Elizabeth N

So glad you enjoyed this one! Great reaction. I'm genuinely so excited to watch each episode again with you. Kinda dreading the bad ones though! Honestly, I never got the impression Voyager had too much technobabble. That always went way over my head. I loved Voyager more for the characters. I remember when I first watched Voyager all the way through. I was about 14 and studying for my exams, including for science, and I used to reward myself for studying with Voyager. Back then you could watch it on YouTube split into five parts. 1 hour of study meant a new 10 minute part of an episode. I always credit the fact I passed my science exams to Janeway!

River Acheron

I don't mind it if it's believable. But I have read a lot of quantum physics and when the techo babble is flat out nonsense..well, that's BEYOND cringe. I mean, sometimes there is a severe lack of physics where they don't even use the correct terminology. I can't just un-hear mistakes and idiocy lol

Philbot

I feel like season 1 was pretty strong especially for a 90’s trek show!

Philbot

Truly outrageous!

Philbot

I think Janeway has earned Chakotay’s respect. She could have tried to throw him in the brig on day one, but she let him work with them to recover their people. And as a former Starfleet officer he is used to working in a command structure. They are stuck together morally speaking what’s he gonna do steal their ship and strand the voyager crew?

Anthony MacEwan

Voyager is so underrated. Character work in this series is great too.

Target Audience

OMG this just triggered my 2006 memory of watching 90s tv shows on YouTube in 3-5 10 minute parts because YouTube had a maximum video length of 10 minutes 😭 what a world.

Vina

Here's the full chart for the curious and nerdy ('c' denotes speed of light in a vacuum, a real physics thing): warp 1 = 1c warp 2 = 10.08c warp 3= 38.94c warp 4 = 101.59c warp 5 = 213.75c warp 6 = 392.50c warp 7 = 656.14c warp 8 = 1,024c warp 9 = 1,516.38c (it really ramps up fast after here) warp 9.2 = 1,649c warp 9.9 = 3,053c warp 9.99 = 7,912c warp 9.9999 = 199,516c warp 10 = infinite speed

Tim Nikiforovs

I hate it when people turn me on and then just leave

Vina

Note that these numbers are from the The Original Series, Trek sort of standardized warp speed across shows differently starting with TNG

Prof Moff

Sex Scoreboard Outrageous Okana mention which means he had sex again..... BUT no one has entered the event horizon yet. Now it seems likely Kes and StarTrek Jar Jar (Neelix) is bangin' but we just can't score it. Maybe it does not happen, I can say I can't remember for sure. They imply it in the first two eps but maybe not (I am not joking about this, I truly do not know for sure). Board notta nuttin' goin' on yet.

tyranusfan

There's a way to do it where it sounds natural. One thing is to definitely limit it. Gene famously had a saying in the TOS writer's bible, referencing a popular cop show at the time: when Joe Friday raises his revolver to shoot at a bad guy on Dragnet, he doesn't stop to explain how a gun works to the audience.

Marko

The TOS scale uses a more simple formula, a cubic progression, so warp 2 would be 2 to the power of 3 (2*2*2 times the speed of light), 8c in this case. Warp 3 would be 27c, warp 4 is 64, etc. But for TNG they changed so that warp factor 3 for instance would be 3 to the power of 3.3333333 which is approximately 39c. And between warp 9 and 10 it goes from 1516c to infinity. But it is realistically very inconsistent in all the shows, the speed is what they need it to be in the given episode, more or less. In terms of Voyager here they're saying it would take them 70ish years to go over 70,000 ly so that would mean about 1000 ly per year. So the average speed of 1000 the speed of light which is approximately warp 8 of the TNG scale.

Tim Nikiforovs

I do agree the character stuff is all great, and it does a solid job kicking off B'Elanna's character, but I can't give it more than a low B/high C because the rest just felt phoned in. You can certainly use an engineering/space disaster scenario as a vehicle to make her chief engineer, but this one didn't work for me. Still, this and the next one are the weakest of the season for me, so if you liked this one as much as you did, it's a good sign for the rest of the season. Might we get an entire season of Banger and above? If any season can pull it off, this one only being 16 eps and packed with solid episodes has a pretty good chance.

Vexx

I enjoyed this episode on rewatch. Granted, I enjoyed it the first time i watched it years ago. I am having a really hard time not running ahead on episodes from what you guys publish. Same reason I dont post in the "takes" because its been so long i dont really remember these episodes in detail. I think I am going to enjoy this journey with you. even if it is a frustrating pace. hehe :)

misti-step

"neelix, this meeting is ONLY for senior officers... thats why ensign kim is here."

Narnman

hehe bridge officer is the right place to be

Mark Magana

FYI - Before moving to command, Janeway was a science officer.

Summer

The true speed of warp is the speed of plot

Skye Maidstone

This episode is such a weird choice so early in the series. The Torrez stuff is decent but the plot and technobabble are terrible. C at best.

Sam Langanke

Braga and Moore split. And so did the fandom. Maybe not in an absolute toxic way, but it was substantual.

Numinous2019

I am not claiming Voyager is not worth watching. Overall, I think it is enjoyable, BUT from the pilot on I always felt that TV ST had already peaked. Voyager is not as successful on its own terms as TNG or DS9. It was burdened with being a network's flagship show, which limited the risks it could take. It (ironically) was also limited by the decision to send the ship to another quadrant. That required the kind of writing that wouldn't be commercially viable until Moore's BSG reboot. Additionally, I always thought the show's overall visual aesthetic wasn't quite right. The lighting especially which lacked variation and led to a kind of highly competent 'soup' visually.

The Defiant One

Funny that you mentioned seeing this before Caretaker, as this episode was the first episode of Voyager I watched.

Hat

I don't really agree that the show peaked in S1. S5, S7, S4, S6, S1, S3, S2 is my ranking and most people would argue S1 is not the best season (despite being decent). So realistically, what you have, is a group of people that wanted a "resource management show" and a "maqui vs starfleet show", and you had the Network, that was paying the bill, that wanted TOS. The people that wanted a serialized show left, and the remaining people made TOS but 1990s version. Therefore the BSG version of Voyager would never have been made in any timeline. Given twice as many people had access to DS9 (not being tied to a network), but Voyager managed to maintain similar viewership numbers as DS9 really does vindicate UPN's belief at the time. For the next 10 years after the shows went off air, DS9 was generally only in syndication late at night, while Voyager continued to occupy a 6 to 7 pm slot timeline which kept its cultural influence strong. UPN wanted a show that was valuable in re-runs, which meant selling ad time then finding an episode with the appropriate length. Unfortunately DS9's format didn't really catch on with the masses, really until streaming, when binge watching became more prominent. I love both shows, but it's best to enjoy Voyager as a TOS style show in my opinion.

Some Guy

I'm surprised how much you liked it! Just proves I still can't predict you guys

Millenial_Manc

This is a spoiler. We need to write as if we are in 1995 or whatever it was, not as if we’ve seen it all but are carefully avoiding specific plots. They’ll be able to form their own opinion once they’ve watched it all.

jon bolton

I love this one, i give it a B. Great moments for both my favourites, B'lanna and the Doctor. I'm glad you both liked it, i knew you'd love the character scenes, but weren't sure if the technobabble would bore you, i'm glad it didn't. One thing i saw you both smile at during the reaction, but didn't mention in the discussion was when the holodecks were mentioned, during the pilot you wondered if Voyager had them, now you know.

Millenial_Manc

Yeah they established that in the pilot when she met Paris. I guess it was an example of the old school subtle / unforced Star Trek diversity thinking, because fewer women were going for STEM careers in the 90s.

Millenial_Manc

Nichelle Nicholls led a whole recruitment programme for NASA to improve representation. There’s a really good documentary about it. Didn’t just inspire a lot of black people and women to go into STEM but also opened NASA’s mind into accepting them.

Some Guy

I think it's supposed to need a different angle for each warp factor.

Millenial_Manc

It would have been cancelled before the second episode

Millenial_Manc

The doctor didn’t switch himself on - he said he had lots of crew going in with headaches. There will have been medical reports / records plus the doctor’s medical logs to write up afterwards if we assume those TNG protocols continued.

Millenial_Manc

Grates on me that they set off on a 3 light year journey to that nearby race at impulse. Full impulse is something about 1/3-2/3 the speed of light so it would take years to get there. They later say they’ve travelled 1.6 light years before ending up back in the anomaly. I guess the “writer’s bible” for Voyager wasn’t as detailed as the one they gave TNG writers.

Millenial_Manc

It made my skin crawl how he was all over her in the conference room. I hope that was in the script or direction and not just the actor being a dirty old bastard. I mean she is like 3 or something isn’t she.

Numinous2019

Spoilers are specific references. Josh has repeatedly confirmed that generalised opinions, or overall statements, are acceptable. He has said that comments like 'Character X is my favourite', or 'Season X is the best', or 'Show X is better/worse' are not spoilers.

lowkee120

The reason the Doctor was on was simply people were coming in reporting dizziness and symptoms of the event horizon, obviously they just never turned him off again before they left. But yes, there's a lot of character stuff going on here. With Janeway's science background and seeing her and Torres basically science the shit out things that went over everyone else's head was fantastic.

Hat

I've always found the Maqui criticism of them wearing Starfleet uniforms too early, kinda laughable. Imagine you take a Democrat and a Republican, toss them on a life raft together in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean. Are they still going to be arguing about tax policy and immigration the entire time? Or are they going to be focused on a unified goal of getting home. The primary disagreement Chakotay has with Starfleet, has no bearing 70,000 light years away. So... Why would he start causing a ruckus now? Janeway didn't make the decision to not get involved with Cardassia. He spent like 20 years in Starfleet, it's not like he doesn't think there is something of redeemable value here. He didn't leave Starfleet because he hated the uniform; he left because he hated a specific policy. Once that policy is irrelevant, his default setting should be the officer he was for two decades.

Numinous2019

Yes, I take all your points. I have to be careful in how I word my reply. I would argue that the pilot should have set up that TOS-like show differently. This did become something discussed by the senior writers later on. As much criticism as Rick Berman has got about certain things, he was caught between negotiating with the network (real world practical realities) and the writers (aspirations to tell the best stories).

ShazD

The interpersonal stuff is great but good god the science and technobabble is absurd even for someone like me with no science background. The event horizon as a physical barrier they need to punch through like ice on a frozen lake what on earth 😭 😭 FYI Janeway so would throw you in the brig for saying she's not perfect.

ShazD

I disagree. There are many decisions Janeway makes in the course of the show that people in the Maquis would have significant issues with.

ShazD

Yeah I have no idea why the writers thought a space anomaly of the week was the first episode they should do. Josh and Alex seen immune to crappy nonsensical technobabble.

Numinous2019

You misinterpreted what I meant by TV ST having peaked. I meant that all of Voyager felt to me that the creative juice and the ST momentum on TV were now in question (to some degree). Voyager always felt to me like a balloon that had an air leak. Not that the balloon would badly deflate, just that I was a bit nervous and keeping a watchful eye on it.

Godzilla PhD

This show set the standard! For technobabble.

TinMan_7B9

The Life of Star Trek: * Embryo: The Cage * Kid: TOS * Awkward teen: TAS * College student: TOS-movies * Adult: The '90s (TNG/DS9/VOY) * Midlife crisis: Enterprise * Sudden cognitive decline: the new Trek movies * Incoherent senior citizen: the new Trek shows

Hat

This is never brought up in the show, it's just implied, but Chakotay was in Starfleet for 20 years before joining the Maqui. He joined for personal reasons, not to be a pirate. The primary criticism regarding the Maqui in this video is that Chakotay put on the uniform too quickly. Whether you feel that they had the appropriate level of disagreement on pragmatism vs starfleet idealism in specific episodes in the future, is a separate argument unrelated to what I said. However... Chakotay was in Starfleet for 20 years... and he was in the Maqui for like a year, where he joined the Maqui for very personal reasons. So when those personal reasons are not a factor here, I don't think him putting the uniform back on is that ridiculous.

Summer

Josh your agreeing with Janeway’s assessment was great, and funny

Sony

Congrats on getting through the most infamous technobabble scene in the entire franchise. Everyone together now: WARP PARTICLES!

Deliximus

Really like Roxanne Dawson's portrayal. Her behind the scenes work is good too. Lol @ "Chakotay great moment" - not a lot of those. C+ ep

Deliximus

That's Voyager writing in a nutshell

Deliximus

It had a good s1

BN13

In terms of Voyager following the "it doesn't get good until season 3" formula, Voyager is a little different here. On the one hand, it DOES follow that formula because, like the other shows, it's iconic seasons are seasons 4-6/7. By that I mean that a lot of stuff that this show is known for doesn't even get introduced or fully fleshed out until then. However, depending on your taste, a lot of people say that seasons 1-3 are actually the best. I guess we'll see what camp you guys fall into.

Cranky Grandma

I do remember the fuss about voyager wasn’t the casting of a female captain, but a black Vulcan. Some fans were upset. Some of us did point out that humans come in a number of colors so why not Vulcans? Tuvok is, to me, the best Vulcan since Spock. He shows you can have mastery of your emotions and still have humor (as Spock did). He is fantastic

BN13

Yeah this is one of the show's main flaws. I usually enjoy the technobabble, but Voyager's is usually nonsensical, hard to follow, pointless, or boring. Then again, Voyager's technobabble to me, is probably what TNG's technobabble sounded like to Alex and Josh.

V G (Zay)

Juicy character stuff! I have no problems with a relatively quick integration of the Maquis as long as it's brought up occasionally for at least a couple years. A number of them were Starfleet previously, and the situation is what it is. It reminds me of a thing Gallifrey Pals said when reacting to Caretaker, at the scene where Chakotay does his 'she's the captain' bit: "This is her house. We're under her roof. She pays the bills, she makes the rules." and like...I LIKE when Star Trek tries to show that their humans are more evolved than us. You can have resentment and still be a professional, and I'm sure the Maquis know that plenty of captains/ships WOULD have found a way to put them in the brig the whole way home.

AdmiralMurphy

When it comes to Rick Berman, while he's the top guy and still has say in both DS9 and Voyager, because Voyager was heading UPN, his focus was on Voyager and he tended to have less of a role in DS9. He did butt in time to time with DS9 on things but was much more hands on when it came to Voyager.

BN13

She's 1.5. in a later episode, she says she's not even 2 yet. But in her species's case, that makes her more like 25 in our terms. I never got why people thought this was a problem. She's not meant to be viewed as an 18 month old infant. She's meant to be viewed in every way that matters as the age of the actual actress. There are species on our own planet that are born, mate, and die in the span of a day. Does that mean that that's species's entire life is child abuse? Okampa only live to be 9, which would be our equivalent of 100, or however long the Star Trek human lifespan is. Kes is already shown to have Guinan vibes where she and her species are very wise and compassionate compared to their age. Probably to compensate for the short lifespan, they mature and learn at a highly accelerated rate, essentially aging 25 years in 18 months. Now yes, she's not going to know about stuff outside of her homeworld like black holes, so she's naive there and that is where she accepts Neelix as a sort of teacher. That's probably her main interest in him. He's a source of outside knowledge. But I think even Neelix underestimates her and essentially views her as "younger" than she actually is. At that rate of maturation, I see Kes easily outgrowing Neelix in a year once the knowledge novelty has worn off.

Badmiral Burgess

I gotta say if I got punched in the face and then that person gets promoted over me, I’d be pissed off! Haha. This is a good 2nd episode that sets the foundation for the show and the issues of being 70,000 light years from home. I think Voyager does the best of character arcs and morality conflicts. Janeway is the best captain!

BN13

The Doctor being used as comic relief in this episode also has another purpose. It's continuing the thread of what we already saw in the pilot. That except for maybe Kes, the Voyager crew does not care about the Doctor's needs at all. They view him as expendable because he's a hologram. They don't care that his display is malfunctioning even if it interferes with his job, and they don't even bother to turn his program off even when asked. They don't treat him like the Enterprise crew treats Data, like he's a real person.

Ken R

I was hesitant to start Voyager because for the longest time I have heard it's TNG-Lite, as if you can get lighter than what is already near weightless, but this isn't like TNG for the most part, it's more like TOS-Lite. I can see people saying this is their favorite of the three, and it's a pleasant surprise to see a ST where you just sit down and, shock of shocks, you get a decent little adventure where there is some semblance of stakes. Thank god there are no flutes, no violin lessons, no kids in daycare, it's a ship trapped in a time loop. And how refreshing it doesn't open with "while escorting XYZ to a proctologist convention....". I don't know if the quality lasts, probably doesn't, but so far this is a good partner for DS9.

Molly Campbell

So glad you're liking it. Can't wait for you to get to some of my favorite episodes!

penoyer79

Voyager was basically a promotion for Brannon Braga - instead of sending him to DS9 where he'd have been joining an established team and just been another name in room (DS9 is basically Moore and Behr's show) - they rewarded him by making him a producer and one of the primary writers. Voyager is basically Brannon Braga unleashed. If you like Braga's work, you'll like Voyager.

deskmerc

Thanks, now I am having mental images of Ferengi ships mounting a sawzall

V G (Zay)

and to be fair to the crew, most holograms AREN'T people any more than ChatGPT is. they have a set limited amount of responses and subroutines and the like--one would assume on purpose, since Starfleet now knows that Moriarty-type problems can happen. *We* can see that the Doctor is clearly more complex than that, but I like that it takes someone like Kes with no preconceptions about holograms to assume otherwise

rear adm. crackbiscuit

Imagine Kim Friedman going over the script and getting to the warp particles and considering her life choices. I watched an episode of The Love Boat recently (yes I'm publicly admitting this) and noticed some nice flourishes in the style. Went back and checked the credits: directed by Kim Friedman!

BN13

I mean, Torres only punched him because he basically said "step aside and let the smart man handle it." He kind of deserved what he got. Both getting punched, and being put in his place with the "smarter woman" out ranking him.

Badmiral Burgess

Politely disagree, please don’t punch me lol.

BN13

I'm amazed that they took the warp speed limit into consideration regarding future ship design. I thought they just fully retconned that whole idea. I appreciate that level of care and detail.

Jeff Cornell

The complaint that the event horizon isn't a physical thing, and therefore the plot makes no sense, is a fair complaint. But I give it some slack because A) we don't actually know for sure what the inside of a black hole is like, and some theories do involve dramatic high-energy physics right around the event horizon, and B) we're in a universe with faster-than-light warp travel, where the traditional event horizon itself isn't necessarily much of an obstacle, but dramatic high energy physics near the horizon would be.

Some Guy

I have a distinct memory of seeing this scene for the first time as a 7 or 8 year old, it was that 'impressive'

River Acheron

I just think the intention was Neelix was talking out of his ass and had no idea what an event horizon actually was, when he was explaining it to Kes. I think that was intentional by the writers.

Jeff Cornell

Except that the solution to the plot is literally to punch a hole in the event horizon so it doesn't destroy the ship. The plot of the episode very much treats it as a literal energy barrier. Not just Neelix.

JB

I just assume since the doctor mentions he would eventually have trouble reaching the patients, that someone else turned him on after Kess left. Probably due to an injury from the various shaking of the ship from the PLOT.

BN13

You guys probably aren't going to have a problem with Voyager's technobabble. People's problem with it isn't that it doesn't serve the characters, like it does here. People's problem with it is it's incredibly scientifically inaccurate. This also ends up leading to nonsense plots like this one. Again, people's problem with the plot in this episode isn't that it's a random sci-fi plot of the week. It's that the SCI-fi plot isn't based in real science. If you're someone who cares about that, Voyager is very aggravating. Plus Brannon Braga isn't known for being scientifically accurate either if you remember the comments from Genesis. There's some episodes by him that some people consider to be epically bad for the same reason. But since you guys don't care about the scientific accuracy of the plot or technobabble, you're not going to have the same problems with it that the fans do, unless as you said, it also ends up doing nothing for the characters.

Hat

Plus this is hundreds of years in the future on the other side of the universe. In the 21st century, it's a big deal if someone goes to the moon. For anyone to say with any level of authority, whether something is or is not impossible, is a little arrogant to me. I tend to look at technobabble like I would magic in a fantasy setting. Does it setup a set of rules, and does it follow those rules? If it does, then it's fine. If it doesn't, I don't like it.

Paul

Voyager learned from the faults of DS9 and TNG. They give us what we both want. Good characters, backstory, a bit of interpersonal drama and conflict (that all makes logical sense), AND some solid techno sci-fi shenanigans, all woven together masterfully, even in a "normal" episode you could say. So excited to continue it!

BN13

Fair enough. She did know she was out of line.

M.A. Moreno

I absolutely hate this episode. The conflict between the Starfleet crew and the Maquis should not be this easy to resolve. We shouldn't be getting to this level of cooperation until the end of the season, at the very least. Things were already going in the wrong direction at the end of the pilot when Chakotay agreed to don the uniform of the military force that was looking to arrest him, but now he's engaging in mild passive-aggressive spats instead of taking a stronger no-compromise position. Compared to Kira, another former anti-Cardassian terrorist turned second-in-command, Chakotay looks like a doormat.

Naglfarius

Man i don't remember how much Quality there was in the Beginning! (20 Years since i watched it) I begin to fall in Love with Voyager, help! Janeway is such a good written Character and i like even Torres, which i almost hated in my first watch. Glad that i have another View on things, and see the Quality in the quieter Moments.

Sony

Yeah, but WARP PARTICLES can disrupt event horizons and get past the "point of no return" and extreme gravitational time dilation 😂

V G (Zay)

I agree with Hat! Sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic, and sufficiently advanced talk about it is indistinguishable from babble.

Hat

Oh, okay, I understand what you meant now. That sounds like a very stressful way to watch this show, sorry you had that experience! Since I very much prefer the 2nd half of the show, over the first half, I didn't have a similar experience, but I can empathize with that experience.

Jonathan Llyr

I’m by no means a Voyager hater. I like the good episodes and I dislike the bad ones. Some of them I actually love. In this case I’m in the “like” category. I thought it did a good job telling a story about where the new crew was at this point and it emphasized the difficulties of assimilating the two groups. Great stuff with Janeway, Chakotay and Torres. And as far as technobabble goes this one is super tame. While the science isn’t very accurate it’s still believable and I think it’s presented in an easily understandable manner that doesn’t bog down the narrative.

Philbot

It’s funny rewatching VOY as an adult Kes reminds me of my ex, but at age 15 in 1995 I was a Belanna man! 😍

Philbot

He was always more in the “system” than Kira at least up until the point he left Starfleet. I think in a more innate sense then his rebellion he is down for the Starfleet ethos and the letter of the law. He probably had a hard time not viewing an accomplished Starfleet commander like Janeway as his superior.

Philbot

Also people had headaches.

Philbot

Me no know physics. 🤷‍♂️

Sunny

He went through the full training and willingly. I feel like someone who wanted that and only left when their morals would have been compromised isn’t against conforming or the hierarchy of the command structure. They’re just in a shitty position of not being able to support the organization you otherwise believed in. A much easier adjustment for him IMO to fall back into the role he thought he’d live out before the treaty was signed

Philbot

Have you ever seen the SNL with Sir Pat where they do a send up of the love boat. I think 🤔 Geordie was Issac?

Aaron Wells

Well, he himself was a Commander in Starfleet, also an experienced senior officer. But as such, he had an understanding and respect for the importance of chain of command. If he'd stayed in the fleet, he would have been one ass kiss for an admiral away from his own big chair. I don't think he necessarily viewed Janeway as being all much hot shit...but simply had the proper deference for her role as a Captain on detached duty who had broad personal authority given the circumstances.

Philbot

B&B get a lot of criticism now but I never really complained about the Bergman years..

Aaron Wells

But I agree about how ridiculously quickly the Maquis integrated into the crew. That should have been a central arc of the entire first season, instead of something that was resolved in the pilot.

Brian Clark

yes at this point ds9 was still not liked and not as popular

Brian Clark

disagreeing i enjoyed it

Hat

It’s worth remembering this is set 400 years in the future, where they travel faster than light using elements that don't currently exist. If we limited the show to our current understanding of physics, Voyager wouldn't even have artificial gravity (without spinning) or be able to leave the solar system in a human lifetime. The show assumes that our grasp of science will evolve drastically over the next few centuries. Nitpicking the terminology seems unnecessary when the show is meant to inspire scientific curiosity, not serve as a peer-reviewed dissertation.

JB

Alex goes full vulcan at 1:07:12 (check his right hand)

Philbot

Put me in the Holodeck. If I’m gonna be locked up for 75 years give me something to do.

Aaron Wells

No. It's not arrogance. It's just that the fundamental mechanics of nature don't change. Things that are known and mathematically proven today will still be correct in the 24th century. Thermodynamics isn't going anywhere. The laws of motion aren't going to magically change. The conservation of mass and energy isn't going to be changing. The speed of light will remain constant. So on and so forth. In TNG the technobabble had a relatable internal logic to it. People are always going on about plasma conduits...because plasma is extremely conductive and is an excellent way to move gigantic amounts of power around throughout the ship. They talk about magnetic containment of antimatter... Because magnetic fields are exactly what one uses to prevent antimatter from interacting with matter and blowing everything up. They talk about inertial dampeners because inertia is an obvious problem for the logic of the entire show. I know it's a contentious topic around here, but not everything is simply fake and made up. There is an actual underpinning to reality, though wildly flawed, in a lot of the technobabble. The trouble with Voyager is that they got lazy with it and stopped trying to make it relatable to real life. They just straight up invented nonsense and didn't even try... Because they just didn't know any better. They were just dumber about it.

Philbot

I heard people like “he must be half human!” Star Trek 3 had Asian Vulcans.

Aaron Wells

I don't think it was a gender thing at all. This is the 24th century. Part of the premise of the show is that people are over that sort of thing. It's more that he viewed her as some civilian without credentials, whereas he was an actual trained Starfleet engineer with rank. It doesn't really vibe with the show that her plumbing arrangement was the center of the issue.

Aaron Wells

Oh, they're going to be arguing the entire time. Also, the political parties aren't actually shooting at each other yet. Yet. Not so much the case with the Maquis and Starfleet.

Laura Thornley

There was a prior Chief in TNG who was a woman - but she's only in one or two episodes of season one - and it was Naked Now from what I remember.

Aaron Wells

I think a lot of people just don't care. It's like if I talk about a 1969 Camaro and a 1970 Camaro... And I start going on about how 1970 was the first year of the second generation and blah blah blah... They don't care. They just see old cars. It's all the same to them. But to me, somebody confusing those two cars is absolutely infuriating. 😆

BN13

Back to the S and N thing I mentioned before. The reason why you feel like your brain is wired differently is because it actually is! Your guys' brains actually ARE wired different from most fans. That's what the S/N thing is meant to describe. It's an opposite set of perception and values. You guys watch these episodes through a very stereotypical S type lens, with high emphasis on stuff like how the show was made, and everything being filtered through the lens of the characters. Nothing wrong with that. S types are even the norm. They are far more common than N types. But most Star Trek fans are N types. Their primary focus when watching the show isn't the characters. To oversimplify how they watch, they are plot first, not character first. Or at least plot/idea/story/science/world building first. Character stuff is secondary to that, and is seen as necessary to support those things. Just as you see the plot as necessary to supporting the characters. Ss and Ns literally value opposite things. So take your own priority of things when you watch the show. The things that you value the least about the show are usually the main reasons why N types watch. The things you value most about the show are usually an afterthought to Ns, or are viewed more as a supporting thing. So yes, we might like the character stuff a lot, but if the plot/story makes no sense, or the science is really bad, we have no reason to be invested in it. It would be the same for you if the episode had a pretty interesting plot or idea, but the character stuff was either non-existent or done in a way that was laughably bad. Take the Jem'Hadar for example. For most fans, the entire point of that episode was the plot. The character stuff at the beginning was just a way to get us there as a nice little bonus. Then people got terrified that you wouldn't like the Dominion going forward, or like ANY DS9 plot the way that they did because they are plot first. So yes, people didn't like the plot here. Yes, the plot supported our characters. That's a good thing. But that's not what we're primarily looking for. We want a good plot/story first, and the plot on its own was bad. And THAT'S our primary thing, not the characters. Although the characters are also important.

Greg Quinn

So other than a few episodes here and there I never really watched Voyager. But so far I'm enjoying it watching it along with the hosts and everyone here.

BN13

Yeah, the science should at least feel like it was a natural progression from where we are now, otherwise it loses all believability. I can accept Anti Time in TNG for instance, because that was technology from a future of even the Star Trek future, and it sounded like something that they might eventually discover. But Voyager tends to just throw a bunch of sciencey words together and hope you don't figure out that they just told you that their ship is powered by rainbows.

Target Audience

Ayyy yo! Where my S types at?? ✋ Are you saying that in your opinion, S types are the norm in general for TV, but are not the norm specifically for Star Trek?

Sunny

I liked this introduction to the “normal” season episodes. I appreciated that they didn’t push the conflict between the Maquis and Starfleet in the mutiny/active conflict direction here because I think they can come back from a broken nose to work together but they couldn’t come back and trust IMO if the Maquis immediately try to take over the ship. I like that Chakotay had the backstory to support his choices to do step into that first officer role and expect the others to fall in line too because I’ve always appreciated the positive Captain/Number One relationships from other shows and there’s lots of scope for exploring it more in depth here where they are all essentially in a quadrant-sized locked room. Can’t really get away from each other and everyone else is a subordinate.

Hat

I thought the plot in this episode, was finding a new engineer. I liked that. I also thought the Inner Light was very poor plotting, but great character work. I thought Best of Both Worlds didn't really make a lot of sense from a plot perspective either... but the character work was great! Does that make me an S type?

Target Audience

I want to add that while we don't care about the scientific realism in terms of judging our enjoyment of the show, I have appreciated learning things such as what Aaron says above about plasma and magnetic fields. I understand Trek isn't an educational program, but it would've been nice if they put a little more time into finding a way to explain when what they are saying is real, so that I can actually learn or at least understand. For me, I don't think that it being real is pointless, but it feels a little like the show's attitude is "if you didn't already know this, oh well." To be fair, it could be the case that some episodes did try to do this and I either don't remember or missed it.

Nolan

"How do we get unstuck from the radius of area in which our car will run out of gas?!" "I know! Break through the edge of that area!" "Brilliant! Genius!" "But, won't we just run out of gas?" "FULL SPEED AHEAD!" -This episode, basically.

Hat

I could see your argument if this was a Klingon or Romulan crew that had to be integrated into a Starfleet crew. That would be a tense season. However, Chakotay was in Starfleet for 20 years before he joined the Maquis. Twenty years of Starfleet indoctrination doesn't vanish because of a few years of rebellion, especially when the cause of that rebellion—the Cardassian border conflict—is physically removed from the equation. He didn't leave Starfleet because he hated the uniform; he left because he hated a specific policy. Once that policy is irrelevant, his default setting should be the officer he was for two decades. The "pirate" narrative is something Starfleet Command pushed, but it wasn't how Chakotay viewed himself. Much of that would apply to a portion of the crew as well. They also... didn't have a ship either, it blew up.

Paul

I would guess a bulk of Trek fans and sci-fi in general would be in the INTJ bucket. INTP too. N-focused for sure. Which makes it fascinating watching what clicks for two traditional S-types. And it helps me to appreciate it from their lens too.

Pixels At Dawn

I've never quite understood the "technobabble problem" with Trek. I didn't even think about it in the pre-internet days, it was just 'part of the plot'. After all, this is a science fiction series, so I expect some fictional science! Trek even goes as far to use some consistency so that sometimes I can hear a term and do some analysis myself. I know if I hear tachyons or chronotons, there's probably some time travel shit going on. Or a cloaking device. There's probably some neutrino flux around a wormhole. And so on. Sometimes they lean a little to hard on it, but not in this episode, and not in many. I think people get too hung up on the term.

Hat

Needless to say, I disagree with Aaron Wells, but that is fine. He is listing established ship mechanics like plasma conduits and inertial dampers, but Voyager continued using those exact same systems with the same internal logic. The "nonsense" he is critiquing involves external anomalies found 70,000 light-years away, not the ship's basic operation. If we judge TNG by that same strict realism standard, it falls apart just as easily. For example, the Enterprise computer spontaneously creating a sentient, conscious being (Moriarty) just because Geordi asked for an opponent capable of defeating Data is ludicrous from a computer science perspective. Yet, fans praise that episode because the "magic" serves a great narrative. That is exactly what is happening in "Parallax." The specific technobabble about the anomaly is just a vehicle for B'Elanna to prove she deserves the Chief Engineer role. The science is secondary to the character dynamics. Otherwise, we'll spend days in the weeds asking for a plausible reason Data can't use contractions... when ChatGPT can.

BN13

I think the official source for all of this is a book, David Keirsey's "Please Understand Me II." According to that, S types are supposed to be 75% of the population. I don't know what he did to test that though. But yes, I'd conclude that S types are the norm, or the "target audience" for most TV and movies. Anything that is meant to target the "masses" the masses are S types. Not all of them will watch specifically the way that you do, but the general rule is S types prefer things that are more real world, tangible, observed through their senses, and are less abstract. Typically, the Star Trek audience is more niche. Ns are usually the fanbase for more niche things. The stereotype for Ns is we are the weird nerds who like sci-fi, fantasy, science, and other stuff like that. N types are sub divided into "Idealists", like Gene Rodenberry who are drawn to Star Trek because of its ideas, themes and the idea of an optimistic future, and "Rationals" who are drawn more to the science, logic, and sci-fi of it. I also suspect that there is a very high overlap between people who are N types, and people who are neurodivergent. There's a lot of similarities. Obviously, S types watch Star Trek, sci-fi, and fantasy too, but when they do, they usually watch it for completely different reasons than their N fanbase. That said, people like Ron Moore, Jeri Taylor, and possibly Brannon Braga are all S types. People like Gene Rodenberry and Michael Pillar are Ns. So Star Trek has a lot of stuff in it that appeals to both. And Voyager in particular seems to have been created by a lot of S-types, and appeals more to S-types. It became a lot more popular with "the masses" probably for this reason. And I would say all modern Trek beginning with Kurtzman is created by and targets S-types which is one reason why a lot of the older fan base hates it. Kurtzman himself is definitely an S. But the people you would think of as typical old school "trekkies" especially the ones who don't like Voyager, yeah those are likely Ns.

Pixels At Dawn

I'm not sure I fit into either of those categories. I want my plot to be good and to serve the characters. And there's definitely good examples of episodes going both ways and examples of both I can enjoy. For this episode, yes it wasn't good genuine science, but Star Trek isn't hard sci-fi, so I don't expect that. It's about the stories that are told in the universe they've created. And the main point wasn't about getting unstuck, it was about how B'Elanna engaged with Janeway for the first time. That WAS the plot - everything else was background things happening.

Pixels At Dawn

I think this is where people trip up. We have no evidence Chakotay left Starfleet because he hated how they ran things, he left because he believed in the Marquis cause. In fact because of his history, he absolutely does get the value of the Starfleet way. I could get maybe some of the other crew kicking up a fuss but Chakotay I absolutely buy taking the logical approach.

Hat

Also, if we are being honest, this "physics-based realism" falls apart even in TNG’s greatest episodes, not just the bad ones... and I could do this all day. But it really isn't fun to ruin the magic of scifi. Take "The Best of Both Worlds"—arguably the peak of the franchise. The solution to the Borg threat is to channel the entire energy output of the warp core through the main deflector dish. In reality, a deflector dish is a navigational antenna and particle shield; pumping that much thermal and kinetic energy through it is like trying to fire a cannonball through a radio. It should have vaporized the dish instantly. It’s pure "magic" engineering, but we accept it because the stakes were high and the drama was excellent. Then look at "All Good Things..."—the perfect finale. The central threat is an "anti-time" anomaly that grows backward into the past. That violates causality and conservation laws just as egregiously as any "warp particle" you’d find in Voyager. It’s a plot device, plain and simple. And even in a solid episode like "The Next Phase," the "physics" make zero sense. Geordi and Ro are phased and walk through walls, yet gravity still applies to their feet so they don't fall through the floor? They are invisible because light passes through them, yet their retinas can still catch photons to see?

Jason Aud

I'm sure it's been stated somewhere along the way already but the "variable geometry" warp nacelles were supposedly an upgraded system to reduce/eliminate the damage that necessitated the warp speed limit....and they wanted something on the ship to articulate. Solutions for both! Even though DS9 and TNG fight for top spot for me I've always thought Voyager had a stronger and more enjoyable start/season.

BN13

Hat, you could be an S, but what determines if you are an S or an N is more of a value/perception thing. Technically, the letters stand for Sensor or Intuitive. In the broadest sense, Sensors like things that are more concrete, while intuitives like things that are more abstract. I would say one way you can tell which one you are is what do you tend to watch Star Trek for in general? What type of fan are you?What is most important to you in determining whether an episode is good, or whether you enjoy it? What appeals to you most about it? And what appeals to you least? Intuitives tend to look past the actual episode itself, excusing things like poor execution in favor of a good idea or what it was trying to explore. They view the show more as one big interconnected picture. S types can focus more on whether or not the episode itself works as an episode of tv. They focus more on the details of the episode itself, and whether or not they work. Alternativly, S types can watch a show solely for one thing in isolation of everything else and enjoy it from a very surface level perspective. For instance, my mom watched Star Trek mainly because she thought Data was cool. Intuitives like to deep dive and experience the show as a fully developed world of escapism. But even then, these are just some possible examples, and I'm describing things in extremes. S and N, like everything else, is a spectrum. These things manifest in a multitude of different ways, not just the ones listed here, and some people are more obviously aligned with their associated stereotype than others.

Summer

Being neurodivergent I am a little of both, sometimes its all about character who cares about plot ( Data’s day, Rascals, Fascinations, many more) other times my liking or disliking cannot be separated from the plot (nearly any Q episode, most borg episodes, and any time the plot is more the focus than characters thus I am focusing on whether or not the plot is good and done well to me of course its here if the camera work bugs my eyes I notice it more.)

Hat

That is a fair point, but what specifically would be their motivation in the Delta Quaderant? Chakotay was in Starfleet for 20 years before joining the Maquis. This isn't a foreign environment to him. The Maquis felt completely betrayed and abandoned by Starfleet, believing the Federation was willing to sacrifice the safety of its own people to appease a hostile power. They viewed Starfleet's refusal to intervene as moral cowardice and a violation of the rights they were supposed to protect. This disillusionment drove them to take up arms, leading many sympathetic Starfleet officers to defect and join their resistance. There isn't any Cardassian force to resist. They are in it together.

Hat

They also misremember how unscientific their favorite show was too.

Hat

BN13 - Thanks for the lengthy comment! There is something off putting about being told I'm in the "Data is cool so I like this show" camp, because I enjoyed this episode. But I also know that isn't your intention. I would say that I think character and theme, are more important than whether warp particles are real or not. I also don't care about how Hobbit cakes are made in the Hobbit. But, I also think the rules of any fictional universe should be clearly laid out, and followed. For instance, if it's established that the universal translator, is universal, I would find it off-putting if it suddenly didn't work, without a genuine explanation. Thus I really do enjoy world building because it makes the universe feel lived in. Arguing about whether warp particles are possible 70,000 light years away, while hand waiving a ship that goes many times the speed of light, with transporter systems, and antigravity... which are all things scientists do not think we can accomplish, even in 1,000 years.... Seems unimportant to me. In this universe, you can. So sure. There are warp particles.

KingPin124

There’s nothing wrong with the science-plot/techno stuff in this episode. It’s a solid episode. I think when people write Patreon takes, they write them as someone who has seen the episode many times. Would the “science plot” get boring after 10 rewatches? Certainly it can. That doesn’t mean it’s bad or not good the first time watching.

BN13

Yeah i didn't mean to be insulting. I was just trying to illustrate that S types, like anything else, are a wide spectrum, and those are just some more extreme examples. N types too are a wide spectrum. Some of them, particularly "Rationals" might care a lot more about the science details for instance, while the "Idealists" don't care about that stuff at all. But then again, that could be flipped, and some S types could like the science too. Ultimately, it comes down to the underlying cause rather than the symptom. The "why" of why somebody is drawn to this or that. The things I mentioned are common clues, but they don't always apply. S and N are ultimately a wide pattern of related values and perceptions that all stem from an opposite root preference; Sensory, or Intuitive. For most people, you need to observe a lot of their own personal patterns, and especially when they are under stress, before you see where most of those patterns tend to fall. Others though can be pretty obvious right away if they fit some extreme stereotypes. But yeah, just from what you wrote here, I can't determine if you are an S or an N. But maybe it's something to think about in your own life, or read up on more, so you can determine which one you are yourself? I find this stuff fascinating for learning more about both myself, and the differences between others. It explains a lot of clashes or misunderstandings.

Pixels At Dawn

Oh for sure. Pretty much every iteration of Star Trek has internal logic only so far as it isn't inconvenient to the plot.

M.A. Moreno

Both TNG and DS9 spent a whole lot of time setting up this whole Maquis conflict, emphasizing how it eroded the faith of former Starfleet officers. And those two shows laid all that groundwork specifically to set up this conflict in Voyager. So settling it over the course of a single episode with very little conflict is a betrayal of all the setup. Regardless of whether it makes sense for Chakotay as an individual character, isolated from the larger franchise context, to behave this way, it makes no narrative sense for Chakotay as the show's main Maquis representative to act this way. If your character doesn't fit the potential for the premise, then make a different character.

Hat

Yeah I gotcha, no worries. I understand, when trying to illustrate a point, it's much easier to speak in extremes. Also, I appreciate all the interesting information!

Jeremiah

God, I love Kate Mulgrew.

Matt Everkoul

Regarding “S” and “N” types… in Doctor Who circles, I often hear the words (borrowed from Sherlock Holmes fandom) that you are either watching a show from a “Holmsian” or “Doyle-ist” perspective. If you’re watching from a Holmsian lens, it’s all the in-universe world building, plot-driven, how the characters are affected by events, etc. Whereas the “Doyleist” perspective (based on the author Sir Arthur Conan Doyle) is from a real world production perspective (writers, directors, production budgets, cast shake-ups, etc)

Hat

Your analogy is a bit off because you are describing a fuel problem, but an Event Horizon is a geometry problem. It’s not that the car runs out of gas; it’s that the road itself is moving backward faster than the car can drive forward. Inside a singularity, space falls inward faster than light. You could have a gas tank the size of the sun—infinite fuel—and you still wouldn't escape, because every direction leads to the center. A better analogy for what happened in Parallax would be: "We are trapped in a whirlpool where the water is moving faster than our boat. We can't power out. So, we are going to use a depth charge to disrupt the current (the 'crack') for a split second so we can slip through." The "crack" wasn't about extending their range; it was about disrupting the gravity well—basically blowing a hole in the current—so they could escape. It is still "Star Trek magic physics," but it isn't a "running out of gas" scenario.

Hat

I don't understand this point of view, but I would like to. The central argument the Maquis had, was over a peace treaty, that forced Starfleet to attack their own people if they tried to protect their homes from attacks from Cardassia. Many of these people were former Starfleet. What specifically would be the argument of a Maquis crew in the Delta Quadurant, that would sustain a season long tension? If Cardassia is out of the picture, your ship is destroyed, and you have a 20 year history in starfleet... I just don't see where the disagreement is. Did Janeway sign the Peace Treaty? I agree that if the show wanted a mutiny, they would have been better served blending a crew of a more hostile race like Klingons, but that clearly wasn't the goal here.

Hat

Imagine Janeway did lock them in the holodeck. But it was like a Pretty Little Liars world you were trapped in for 75 years. I would find that extreme torture!

Aaron Wells

Im an N. Very very N. N approaching M.

HeatheЯ

Yes! Yes! What you were talking about at 1:28:30 forward, as a more dominant woman I cannot agree more!!! Thank you, I love how you communicated that! Exactly!

penoyer79

holy technobable batman!

Pokes

Funny enough, I did miss the pilot, so this actually was the first episode of Voyager I ever saw. Really glad they mentioned the “75 year trip” in the episode or who knows how long it would have been before I figured out the premise of the show. I don’t think I saw Caretaker until I caught a batch of reruns sometime after Season 1. But as for this episode, outside of it being special to me since this was my premiere of Voyager, I think it’s a pretty dang good episode too. B/B+ range.

L J

I have heard many people complain about this over the years but I never had a problem with it. As I mentioned in my patron take, it makes sense under the circumstances and for the character. At his core, Chakotay is a peaceful person. The conflict in the Alpha quadrant with his home planet being abandoned to the Cardassians was a cause he believed in, so he fought for it. But once they were stranded in the Delta quadrant, that conflict no longer existed. And with his ship being destroyed, he really didn’t have any other option than to join Janeway and her crew. He had no issue with Janeway herself and it makes sense that Chakotay would do everything he could to make that transition go smoothly. Personally, I think Chakotay balanced it quite well in this episode, supporting "his people" while also trying to keep every one calm. I think he stood his ground and made his position quite clear in his conversation with Janeway. As for the comparison with Kira, I don't see it. She was pretty adversarial towards Sisko and the presence of the Federation in the first episode, and a little in the second episode, but I feel like she adapted and came around to it pretty quickly, too. She may not have liked it, but there wasn't anything she could do to change it so she went along with it. Honestly, I don't see that there is any difference between Kira and Chakotay in their respective situations.

L J

This was another fun reaction! There are a lot of great moments in this episode that I hoped you guys would appreciate and I was very happy to see you react favorably to all of those things. I honestly don’t understand the complaints people have about this episode. I think this one is rock solid and hits all the right notes. It covers a lot in those 45 minutes and it all works for me. Great character moments all around made even better by the excellent acting. The plot was well used and tied into the overall story for the character development. I think the people complaining are primarily the fans who don’t care for Voyager as a whole, so they are just negative and looking for things to complain about rather than keeping an open mind about what the episode actually is. I was glad that you guys seemed to warm up to Lt. Carey by the end of the episode. Usually when you decide you like or don't like someone, that doesn't change by the end of the episode, so it was kind of neat to see you develop a little understanding and respect for him by the end. His reactions throughout the episode always made sense and seemed believable to me.

E Parhas

Ah yes, the Magic Meeting Room™ makes its appearance

E Parhas

The Doctor was only programed to be around long enough to help out with a medical emergency until more real doctors can arrive. The emergency medical hologram is only meant for bad emergencies where either the medical staff is gone or there's such a severe medical problem that they just need another doctor to help. His usage would be very rare. Staying left on so long is simply unnatural for him, it's not what he's programmed for, so he doesn't like it

E Parhas

The warp scale is logarithmic. Warp 1 is light speed. But the higher the numbers the greater the gap in speed. Someone can probably send you a chart that shows it but basically Warp 9.5 to 9.6 is like a WAY bigger jump than warp 1 to warp 2

E Parhas

The Milkyway is about 100,000 light-years across irl so the 70,000 light-year distance makes a lot of sense. The section of the galaxy that the rest of star Trek happens in is really a tiny section of the Milkyway. It's still a huge area of territories but compared to the whole galaxy Starfleet really hasn't explored much

Hat

I totally get why the heavy technobabble can be off-putting, but I actually love this episode specifically for the character work it enables. The concept of the event horizon acting as a time-delayed reflection where they essentially see their past selves is grounded enough in theoretical physics to be really compelling. I also thought the moment where they hail the 'other ship' only to realize they are hailing themselves was a brilliant way to visualize the trap. For me, the technobabble isn't just noise; it’s the language Janeway and Torres use to find common ground. Watching them solve the puzzle together using that scientific shorthand is what earns Torres the Chief Engineer spot, so the jargon actually serves the character arc perfectly. It might be an 'anomaly of the week,' but it establishes the crew's dynamics really well.

River Acheron

I actually never knew that myself! I thought it was always light speed times 5, or times 9.5 I leared something today

River Acheron

Someone is a Chuck (SFDebris) fan. :)

E Parhas

Yeah I'm not sure if it's ever specifically stated in canon Star Trek but its in a bunch of non-canon material and I believe the warp speed charts showed up on screens a few times in the shows. And also there were definitely writers with it in mind because it's how things like the 70,000 light-year trip only taking 70 years instead of 7,000 makes sense in the show. Tho they obviously rarely got the math exactly right but they typically had the general idea that warp 9 is crazy fast, 9.5 is insanely fast, 9.9 is ungodly fast and so on. Also it approachs infinity at warp 10 which is why technically warp 10 is impossible (tho not in TOS or that one episode with the Traveler in TNG)

Loot Narsbaar

I only really mind tenchnobabble when it's used as a crutch to solve a problem instead of using the characters

Loot Narsbaar

The rules of the universe are so very important to me. I don't think it matters to everyone, I don't think it matters much to J & A, but it's so very important to me to understand them. A significant reason post orig-trig Star Wars didn't work for me is because I no longer understood the rules of the universe, and when the laws of the universe break down my brain starts screaming why is anyone doing anything I don't understand their motivations and I'm completely lost. Part of why I hated Generations is if Riker beat the Borg it's completely illogical he would get his ass whooped by an obsolete Klingon ship in the fashion which played out. BoBw Riker (and the other main characters) would know how to solve that problem. If you don't know or care about the in world Trek-tech it may not matter, but to me it comes off as character assassnination and now he and his crew are being written as morons for the sake of making a bad plot work.

Loot Narsbaar

Here's the thing: in 1995 they couldn't do serialized TV so a multi-episode arc about integrating the crew It wasn't realistically possible. Also I don't think they wanted a BSG crew where everyone was as each other's throats. They had to keep the vibe of 90s Trek to keep it recognizable to the audience. I think we can circle back to when the show was being developed the writers developed it one way and then were ordered to change it mid stream and now were just stuck and have to move on.

Loot Narsbaar

Warp Drive more or less violates causality. Maybe they have it figured out far into the future, but there many a trek episode where they could solve a mystery by warping a few light-hours, or a light-day away, pull out their telescope, let the light travel to them, and then witness the mystery event in question. (The First Duty comes to mind here as the biggest obvious offender). We have to turn our brains off to make it work. It doesn't really matter to me as long as the characters, and the rules and logic of the universe are consistent. I 100% understand why fantasy technobabble pisses people off and it's completely valid. If, I, Loot, a obsessive baseball fan am watching a baseball movie and they get a lot of the little things wrong (i.e. no one would really give a shit about Bernie Mac getting 3000 hits, it should have been Mr. 4000 at the very least) it's distracting and it's more difficult to focus on the greater story at hand because the movie loses some of my trust and starts poking at my suspension of disbelief.

Loot Narsbaar

Look, season 1 of TNG isn't cannon, unless it is

Loot Narsbaar

Carey outranks Kim, Paris, Torres (even after she was made Chief), and has the same rank as Tuvok (who is incorrectly costumed as a Lt. Cmdr.) he has every right to be pissed about being punched in the face and should go to HR. He is literally tied for third highest ranking officer on the ship. He is making a sacrifice being an assistant engineer where in reality he should transfer out of engineering and be a bridge officer for the sake of his career.

BN13

Or in All Good Things. They go warp 13 in the future implying that warp 10 for them is similar to how we view light speed now. It's theoretically the limit according to our/their current understanding of physics, but is there actually a way around it?

Loot Narsbaar

A cynical reading of this is episode is Torres can get away with assaulting a superior officer and then be given his job because she's brilliant and the Captain has no one else qualified to turn to. In the 21st century this doesn't work because it would incentivize her to behave even worse, in the 24th century it doesn't happen because (almost all) people are fundamentally better. I think a more plausible way to play this out would be to make Carey the Chief and then demonstrate over the course of an arc that he's basic and the ship would be better off in the long run with Torres. However she has have to show growth and develop as a leader and have a bit of redemption arc to show she's ready to lead a group of actual graduated Starfeet officers and win their respect. Here she gets the job because she's the smartest person on the ship. I understand it would be impossible to do this on this type of television program so we get the short short rushed version

Loot Narsbaar

Full impulse in 1/4 the speed of light. Which makes all the sense in the universe because relativity

Loot Narsbaar

There's no way realistically that Voyager could have co-existed with DS9. DS9 already took place in the Alpha, Beta, and Gamma quadrants. Voyager HAD to be in the Delta Quadrant. Otherwise you'd run into the problems DS9 has it's first two seasons where it was crippled by not being able to do anything interesting with the ST Universe because they couldn't rock the boat for TNG (and vice-versa)

Loot Narsbaar

Voyager was always the much more popular show, I think DS9 fans were very LOUD about how their show was the best because it was undervalued

Loot Narsbaar

I think of it this way: Impulse: Going slow enough to crawl through a minefield of planets and moons. Like a parking lot with infinite moving random speedbumps Warp Drive: we're outta the parking lot and we can hit the gas! Warp 1: Getting out and walking after your car has broken down in the middle of the desert Warp 2: Walking from Vancouver BC to New York but there's a improved trail and you probably won't get eaten or die of malnourishment Warp 3: same journey on a nice bicycle Warp 4: Going 30 MPH on the interstate Warp 5: 55 MPH Warp 6: 75-85 MPH depending on safety Warp 7: Bullet Train Warp 8: Airplane Warp 9: Supersonic Jet Warp 9.5: Space shuttle Except even these comparisons are ridiculous because each warp number is exponentially faster than the previous

Loot Narsbaar

Not only that but I would argue she is Voyager's Science officer and delegates those duties when she has too much on her plate. Kind of like when Data was Captain in Gambit.

Loot Narsbaar

This is literally the most important part of the Voyager journey. Also Kes is clearly more mature than Neelix despite her (in human years) being roughly 21 and him being about 48

Loot Narsbaar

One reason DS9 is the best is because sliding scale is has the minimum amount of technobabble and things being solved by technobabble compared to the other Treks

Loot Narsbaar

It makes you appreciate The Chief. O'Brien is both and Expert at Worf's job and Geordi's! Carey is just a competent experenced Starfleet guy.

Loot Narsbaar

This is why Captain Crusher is going Warp 12 in All Good Things. They recalibrated the Warp Scale because saying Warp 9.991, Warp 9.993, Warp 9.99998 etc was a pain in the ass. Much like why Pluto was reclassified as a minor planet when it was discovered there could be 10s of Plutos in the solar system.

Loot Narsbaar

I think the Ent-D safely tops out at 9.6, which is considerably slower than when Voyager floors it. The Defiant tops out in the low 9s, but that's price you pay for peace through superior firepower.

Loot Narsbaar

I think there's a quote from Roddenberry: "space is not our backyard." It's supposed to take some time to go from planet to planet. Your not supposed to be able to, say, jump from Romulus to Earth in a few hours. Stars are supposed to be days apart. I think, canonically, it's supposed to be a 3-4 week journey round trip from DS9 to Earth and back. That's why the last episode we saw an idiot Admirals order Sisko and the entire senior staff to dinner at the OG Olive Garden on Earth: it's so the senior staff and the Defiant could be away from DS9 for the better part of a month.

DEMYTRA

i dont get the patron takes at all lmao, the plot of this was one of the most memorable to me in the first seasons and this is one of my fav episodes tbh

Loot Narsbaar

Let me explain why sometimes this tech stuff matters and why the patreon take were so unexpected for some. For instance: We know Warps 2 &3 are kinda slow, Warp 6 is cursing, and Warp 9 in flooring it, right? In The Wounded we have the Enterprise chasing after Maxwell who is suspected of mass murder. When Maxwell attacks, everyone is watching the latest massacre helplessly on the view screen. A disturbed Picard asks Data how long until they can intercept Maxwell, Data says words to the effect we're traveling at warp 4, so 17 hours. Why the hell Warp 4? That is so slow by Galaxy Class standards! To someone with an incurable bout of Trek brain like myself that makes it look like Picard isn't even trying. If he had gone even like Warp 7 he could have caught up to them and probably saved hundred of lives. I realize this is was probably and oversight that just fell through the cracks and that it was not the intention to make it seem like Picard and crew we're leisurely plodding along with zero urgency, but sometimes when you fuck that stuff up it completely changes how I see the story.

Hat

Can we also acknowledge that it wasn't until 1 year after Parallax was written and filmed, that humanity for the first time, confirmed that stars outside our solar system had planets? Additionally, when we did make that discovery, it was shocking to find-out that it was a gas giant, which was closer to it's sun than Mercury is.... which scientist concluded was impossible previously. Further, in 1994, we thought the universe was decelerating from the Big Bang, but in 1998, it was found that the universe was actually accelerating due to dark energy (we didn't know existed). Therefore, to the people critiquing Brannan Braga here for not getting the technicalities of an event horizon correct in 1994.... Give him a break. Perhaps a ship that can go Warp 9, which is equivalent to the energy of 1,500 suns, has a loophole we haven't discovered yet. It's about character friends.

Todd

YOU GUYS. I'm biting my tongue, so to speak. So if no one pointed out, the actor who plays Lt. Carey was Josh Clark who once appeared as a background actor in the TNG episode Justice. This has led to some fan-canon that Lt. Carey may have served on the Enterprise D. Martha Hackett who played the Bajoran also played T'Rul, the Romulan who was responsible for the cloaking device on the Defiant. Re: technobabble and scientific inaccuracy, as a long time reader of comic books, I have to have a high suspension of disbelief. People have long explained why characters like Giant-Man would not be able to exist. I don't care because in a visual medium giant characters add interest and power diversity and they are still being used by writers, regardless of the science. Fact is, the average media consumers are "smarter" now because in 30 years, we have discovered more about our universe. Also, we have resources online that can be accessed instantaneously versus going to a library for books and encyclopedia that can be 10 or more years old. This episode had to do a lot in setting up status quo and I think it was successful. They needed to follow up on the chief engineer dying in Caretaker and why B'Elanna was such an a spitfire and they tackled both of those in one story. They've done more to flesh out their female characters than we saw in 4 seasons of TNG. Also she and Janeway aren't in leotards, doing stretches, talking about boys. Janeway was a science officer so that explains why she was so involved in the analysis of the singularity. Mulgrew really delivers and her facial expressions are something to be enjoyed.

BN13

I think people naturally notice these patterns in others even if they don't know what they are. I've noticed too that whenever media makes something that's meant to feature 4 characters who are very different from each other, like The Golden Girls for example, or Captain Ron, or The Wizard of Oz, the four characters are almost always Keirsey's four Temperaments.

V G (Zay)

back in the day there was also this cliche batted around that "Female fans write fanfic, male fans write essays". With a certain level of disdain lobbed from each faction to the other, lmao. Obviously that's reductive and a generalization but there *has* been a trend where there's a split between the more 'transformative' vs the more 'analytical' fans, so I wonder if the 'S vs N' terminology is a similar idea from a different angle 🤔

Loot Narsbaar

Our solar system is the craziest solar system known to man. Before then it was thought to be the default.

reactive1

Lt. Carey also appears in “The Caretaker” in a blink and you’ll miss it moment when Janeway works with him to avert the warp core breach.

reactive1

I think that in AGT they redefined the warp scale, much like how TNG redefined it from TOS. Whatever the warp 10 equivalent is on the AGT scale, it’s still infinite speed.

Todd

indeed. Even something further to tie this episode into being an epilogue to Caretaker.

reactive1

Well, Kim is the Operations officer which kind of makes him part of the senior staff despite being an ensign.

reactive1

Ethan Phillips was 40 in 1995 when the series started.

Dabo Master

If something is not urgent, the captain or first officer determine the warp speed based on the condition of the ship and repairs that may be taking place, and the fact that they use deuterium as fuel. Plus high speeds add wear and tear to the engines. If they are constantly visiting starbases for repairs or deuterium because they want to go max speed all the time, it would be seen as irresponsible by Starfleet and bad ship management from the captain.

reactive1

I said this before, but there is a big theory that Chakotay is the Lt. Cmdr. that Ro refers to in “Preemptive Strike” that joined the Maquis.

Loot Narsbaar

I would classify tracking down a ship that is allegedly causing mass murder and pushing the Federation the brink of all out war as "urgent." At least urgent enough to meet regular cruising speed. Picard's orders are to preserve the peace at all costs. I would argue exceeding warp 4 would fall under these orders. Warp 4 is for roundabouts, not the flagship on a critical mission where time is of the essence. Hell, Picard maxed out his warp engines to solve Prof. Galen's puzzle in The Chase. Flooring it doesn't seem like that big of a deal in the short term.

Numinous2019

Yes, I made that same point on a recent TA video. The DS9 continuity (and the TNG movies) would have snarled up Voyager's own storytelling. And Voyager couldn't be set some time in the future either, because that would mean potential huge issues with franchise continuity. So, the only options were the past (limiting what Voyager could do), or sending it far away.

Michael Metrick

I've also read that both production companies ordered from the same Burger King... crazy, right?

Todd

Yeah, supposedly it's off a year which could be attributed to an error or Votager just taking inspiration.

TalynOne

I understand they need to do in this in the context of the show, the fact that B'Lana is a main character means she needs to have a main role. But in the context of the story itself I think Janeway promoting her to chief was kind of a command blunder in the context of what we know of B'lana so far. It's no doubt she's the best skilled engineer. But the Chief Engineer isn't really necessarily your most technically gifted person, that's part of it but it's mainly the one that can best manage and leverage their team to the best of their abilities. B'Lana didn't demonstrate that at all. She demonstrated the exact opposite. As an example, in TNG, in many ways Barkley, Wesley and Data are better skilled engineers than Geordi. Does that mean they should be chief over Geordi? Geordi knew he wasn't always the most gifted but was able to leverage Data, Wesley and even Barkley to make things happen.

Ian Tepoot

They mentioned in I think in Caretaker that Janeway was a former science officer. And Voyager itself is a more of a primary science vessel than Enterprise which presumably is why a former science officer was specifically assigned to command Voyager

WastedPo

I know this is two weeks old, but I don't understand why you guys were disappointed that there was no captain's log narration to start the episode. I don't know if you're watching some weird cut of the show, but my streaming version absolutely DOES have Janeway voiceover after the opening credits.

DinkleD

I don't think this is ever reference or explained in the show so i don't think this is spoiling anything but the Nacelles going up is actually a call back to the TNG episode of warp damaging space, they found that the nacelles at an angle either lessens the damage or negates it, i don't remember 100%, so they can go at high warp without damaging space, its why you will see a lot of ships designed around the era of Voyager with nacelles at an angle, like the Akira class. the Intrepid is the only one with moving nacelles though, and i love it for that fact lol

Betty Smith

I'm sorry I might be missing something, but I just became a member of this channel to watch the UNCUT version of Voyager. Why am I only seeing a the clock on the screen with you? I did pay for the right membership to unlock this feature, right?