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UNCUT - The Die is Cast (DS9 S3E21) | Star Trek Journey 360 (Patreon)

Published:
2026-03-22 12:00:15
Edited:
2026-03-28 15:05:35
Imported:
2026-09
Tags:
stj

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Darren

Credit to RDM for writing this in just a few weeks - In another universe this episode doesn’t exist and Garak and Odo get out of the warbird by blackmailing Tain…

Cory Paton

We are being spoiled this week, fantastic thumbnail too 😂

Darren

Further thought this is my fave two part story of ds9 so far and that’s all down to the character work for Garak and Odo

Summer

Great grid changes

Robert Boykins

Great reaction 👏🏿 can't wait to see yall reaction to how dark & realistic this series is gonna get 😮‍💨

Zenlike Creature

I think what you guys said on the previous episode that we 9'ners have the benefit of hind-sight, having seen all of the series (probably more than a few times), so we have these episodes which, when looking back are key, or at least important, moments in the overall narrative of the show. I think this is a great two parter and I hope you enjoyed it, overall. Look forward to hearing your thoughts. Additional: great video from Paul Dooley. Lovely to see that he's still with us and still working :)

tyranusfan

I can't believe you guessed the premise of the next show! Star Trek: Survivor. Spoilers guys, jeez...

harrypothead42024

It is always weird seeing someone decide to actively have a bad time

Altariel

It's unfortunate that the excitement of your viewers makes you worried about the show. Maybe we should collectively stop hyping the series to make it easier for you... 🤔However, I think no matter how you feel about the show now, unless you have a heart of stone, you'll get some more episodes that make you feel something in the future for sure.

Sykonee

TV budget wouldn't allow it obviously, but even with movies, you'd never see Trek go full Wars with massive fleet engagements, usually sticking to 1v1 ship battles. So when you hear a 20 ship fleet is decloaking, and actually *see* that, it's one of the damndest thing you've ever seen in Trek. Then to turn that into a mere fraction with a 150 ship counter-attack...! Well, at least we got to see some of that on the TV budget. ;)

Etman

i didnt know i needed the nagus in this episode before today

Ryan

It is so satisfying to see the second half of a Star Trek two-parter really spike the ball. It's not a perfect episode, but I never would have guessed the second part wasn't even supposed to exist. The super-cool ship action is neat (IIRC, that final shot with the Defiant and the Jem'Hadar ships — all physical models — took days to film), but the meat of this is Garak and Odo, their similarities and their differences. After Garak betrays everyone at the first opportunity, to have him stand right there and watch as Odo refuses to do that — goosebumps. Rene Auberjonois and Andrew Robinson sell every scene they're in.

StonyD

A Deep Lore mythology episode of DS9 with some of that classic tight Ronald Moore writing. Moves the characters along, moves the world-building along, ties up old plotlines and introduces newer ones, some action pop, some deep-cut character analysis, and the nice swerve at the end, settling on that amazing mirror shot for the end. Couldn't ask for a better episode in my opinion.

Gary Willig

This isn't my favorite episode - there are plenty in seasons 4, 5, 6, and 7 that I think are better overall, but in my opinion it is pretty close to flawless. Great character work with Garak and Odo, a plot that would work in a movie with enough intrigue between Tain and the reveal of the Changeling who posed as the Romulan commander, and what I believe is the biggest battle scene Trek had seen up to that point in the sheer number of ships firing at each other. The threat of the Dominion has definitely escalated over what it was before. The Defiant did destroy a Jem Hadar fighter in The Search, but it took a billion shots unshielded before it started fighting back then. Now we get to see it fight without taking Wrath of Khan levels of opening damage first, and its pulse phaser canons tear through Jem Hadar fighters like tissue paper.

Sykonee

Not sure if this has been brought up before, but the wrestling analogy works far better than y'all may realize: TOS/Golden Era: Many of the most iconic moments here, with some larger-than-life characters penetrating pop culture, but also glaringly showing its age/product of its time too TNG/Attitude Era: Possibly even more more successful than the previous era, with characters even more iconic, though also weighed down by dated aspects DS9&VOY/Ruthless Aggression: Brand split, obviously! Also, hardcore fans of this era claim its the best for reasons that often elude general fans. /what does that make ENT, then? Oh dear... //New Generation? Oh, that's The Animated Series, clearly!

Matchstick Jose

I won't get to watch all of this reaction until tonight. I'm a bit worried my take might have helped lead to an hour of Ira discourse. I'm sorry. 😅

Collin Freeman

Your conversation of if anyone else on the station could be a changeling took me back to Ronald Moore's Battlestar Galatica series with the cylons being so human, anyone could be one. He seems to like instilling a paranoia element into his shows, similar to John Carpenter's The Thing.

Matchstick Jose

Good to know. The Ira discourse has also been a main topic of discussion in the Spoiler Discord. JoshCLG has been digging up good comments from RHW and others about exactly how the DS9 writers room operated. Some interesting insights.

Target Audience

I’m sure it’s all very positive and complimentary of us

Shortskirtsandexplosions

The "Romulan" changeling's actor reminds me so much of Dustin Hoffman. Maybe it's just me~

Collin Freeman

It took 90 minutes-to-2 hours to apply the Spock make-up to Leonard Nimoy in TOS days. I think that decreased by the time they got to the movies because of the expertise of that type of make-up by then.

Laura Thornley

Thoughts longer then the actual episode? Hell yeah, baby!

Collin Freeman

I was trying to think of who he reminded me of. It wasn't Dustin Hoffman, but I can see where you're coming from.

Collin Freeman

The Romulans are always playing 3-dimensional chess while most of their enemies are playing checkers. You're thinking like a Romulan, Alex. That thought about Tain occurred to me, too.

Matchstick Jose

But of course! If you guys get brought up at all, it’s always with the deepest respect… almost a reverence, you might say. (Now, uh, I would not suggest ever going in there to, you know, verify this completely and 100% accurate assessment. I think you might just be too embarrassed to see that amount of glazing.)

TC Green

Does that make Babylon 5 TNA?

StonyD

Listening to the Discussion afterwards, I wanted to add: Alex, don't worry man. It's like what Josh said, it's a TV show. Ignore the hype and the haters equally. Just watch it, enjoy it or don't. Any reaction counts. You're not here for the confirmation bias of old fans like myself. If you don't like it, then hopefully Josh does. And either way, you might find Voyager your personal fave between the two. However, I firmly believe you will find more 'Heart of Stone' and 'Bonding' in DS9 to come. But there will also be a different kind of meal for the rest of us as well. A lot of meat on that bone. I've fallen into a food analogy. Maybe I'm hungry?

Scott Woodward

Could you be more specific, my friend? There's an hour and fifty three minutes of points to be missed here.

Keith S

Had to show my brother your video of Paul Dooley he thought he was dead. So did I for that matter. Ninety-eight is an impressive age.

Loot Narsbaar

While the best trek battles are the slow one on one battles from ST2 or Yesterday's Enterprise, this one should be appreciated for giving that all hell is breaking loose but we still know actually what going on... at least when compared to today's sci-fi

Sykonee

Did mull over whether TNA or WCW would be the more apt B5 comparison. Still undecided on that...

Ross Townsend

Alex, struggling with optimism, somehow forgetting Nog and Dukat are still out there. Possibly with more content... Rest easy guys. When you had regular jobs, did you give 100% every day? I fuggin hope not. But the days you found that 110%, even if it was out of spite, made the difference. Trek's gonna do that for you.

Doctor Pulaski

You guys are going to be pleasantly surprised. Everything Alex is worried about will not come to pass. I predict you will BOTH enjoy DS9's back half MORE than the rest of Voyager. I would bet 5 bars of gold pressed latinum.

Scott B.

Something I only picked up on rewatches of this episode was the horrified indignance of Lovok when they mention the stasis device. At first he just appears to be upset that the Cardassians were keeping technology from the Romulans on this mission, but I actually think he lets the mask slip just a bit there as he's horrified by the implications of such a technology. My only quibble with this episode in a plothole sense is that Lovok really should've informed the fleet not to fire on the runabout. There is no reason for him to allow their escape just to let them get blown up, except for the fact that the Defiant and its crew needed something to do this episode. Otherwise a fantastic ep, and I think one that really shows they've finally figured out what kind of show they want DS9 to be.

Duncan McDonald

Loved it, loved it, loved it. The parallels between Odo and Garak. Their interactions were turned up to 11 after the last episode. Loved the camera work here too - the comment about there being a lot of upshots I put down to the fact Colonel Lovak was a relatively short actor, and they needed to convey his seniority in some other way.

Elizabeth N

I love these two episodes a lot but don't go as crazy for them like some others. To me, all the Dominion episodes kinda blend into one another. I love the Dominion story, but as a whole, not usually the individual episodes. My favourite episodes in DS9 are mostly standalone ones.

Ryan

Like: I can't get over Andrew Robinson's delivery of "I'm a very good tailor." It's pain and loss and transience all wrapped up and undersold just enough. Brilliant.

Trekkie74205

Random BS. This was the first Star Trek 2-Parter with different episode titles. There was a filmed Quark scene cut for time. Michael Pillers "Creative Consultant" credit was about a paycheck, not any actual involvement in writing the show. This credit was added as Ira Steven Behr had "Executive Producer" status as of this episode. I pronounced it incorrectly for two decades. It is Sal-O-May Jens.

Loot Narsbaar

The reason all the ships decloak is so they don't all run into each other trying to go trough the wormhole.

Scott Woodward

I do like this episode for the way it at least tries to pay off the first half. Improbable Cause is one part chasing a mystery and one part a verbal duel between the spy and the investigator as they try to size each other up and defend themselves from the other's conjectures. This episode essentially takes that sparring and drives it to the extreme where we see both characters pushed to their limits and beyond and gaining something like respect after seeing who they really are. Improbable asked if Garek had any honor and what merit there was in Shakespearean tragedy. This episode showed us Garek has a depth of honor not even he was aware of and leaves with the realization of his own hubris ("the fault is not in the star, dear Tain, but within ourselves"- still love that line in particular). Odo being lonely for his people isn't the most profound revelation but Rene plays it well and it does the job of tying his turmoil into Garek's own struggle. The weakest part of the episode is probably the Defiant sabotage, although I appreciate the reminder that Eddington exists and it gives something for the rest of the cast to do other than twiddle their thumbs waiting to be the calvary arriving. I have other comments but they should wait for a later time- I don't think its much of a spoiler to say the events of this two parter will have repercussions that are worthy of discussion in future episodes.

Ryan

It's tough for me to watch this struggle with what DS9 is and where it's going, because I'm in a position to know that a lot of your concerns will get addressed. But I also know that you have to take the same journey we all did in the '90s, going from the place of "DS9 is fine when TNG and Voyager aren't on" to seeing what the show ultimately becomes. I say this part to show respect to you both as reactors/critics: I subscribe to your channel because I really appreciate that you engage with the material and think critically about it, especially because too many episodes have solidified over the years into "this is a Good One" or "this is a Bad One." But I've loved this show for three decades and I'll continue to love it whether you agree or not. So keep speaking your minds!

Matchstick Jose

This is a case where our expectation setting and pre-glazing of DS9 has done serious damage to at least how Alex views the show. We’ve failed the Target Audience. Sentence: 10 years in a Cardassian labor camp for all of us. (At least we’ll get to hang out with Thomas Riker.) “Now, let me tell you, Season 4 is really where DS9…” *5 more years added to our sentence*

Better Watch Trek

you know, sometimes it's very difficult to have a clear opinion to an episode, especially for DS9, since, as you statet, most of us know the whole context and maybe have an different view for certain episodes. I always try to remember how I felt back in the 90s about the episode and in this case, I was quite sure that its a S and the viewer would be blown away by the episodes and the pacing and the interregation scene. BUT: nope, on rewatch I would give it a B or A, because everything I remembered is somehow distored. The interregation scene is good, but way shorter than I rembered, the special effects were mindblowing in the 90s but there are youtube channels with longer and better effects... Nervertheless, what surprised me and I really liked were Sisko and Edington scenes, The Bashir and O'Brian lunch, the way Odo talked in every scene. The only thing that really remaind awesome is the fact, that the dominion is one step ahead of everyone else

Ryan Roach

I feel like Moore got inspired to do the "who is a Cylon" thing because of working on this show.

Sykonee

I always head-canon that as some Dominion ships just automatically shooting at the Runabout trying to get away, then Not-Lovok got on the horn, shouting, "WAIT! ODO's on there, you idjuts!!" Which would also explain why Garak had so much time to apologize to Odo once they were defenseless.

TalynOne

Eddington is how you deal with an "obvious" mystery, reveal it quickly since it's not worthy of a main plot, not the stupid garbage way Voyager did with "State of Flux ", wasting an entire episode of the dumbest mystery ever created.

TalynOne

Or they just have weird non mainstream tastes, over glazing The Bonding and their opinion on Star Trek 6 as examples. This episode was easily S tier on first watch. For instance just because someone says they hate The Godfather doesn't mean it's a bad film, it means that person has a hot take that doesn't jibe with most. It seems, Alex more than Josh, but both, simply are not interested in Space Operas, they would probably like DS9 more if it was just a straight character drama that takes place in the 90s, the sci fi/story just gets in the way for them.

TalynOne

I wouldn't bet on it, bad taste exists.

Loot Narsbaar

Fearing more Emergence and Masks is truly wild. Last year the fear was that every episode from here on out would be a Jem Hedar blast em up, and yet here we are. I thought both these episodes were a huge rollercoaster, but to each their own. BTW I'm not sure Whispers is even a top 30 episode.

TalynOne

If it were up to Rick Berman, not kidding, but the entire Dominion arc would be a 2-parter. Ira Steven Behr nixed that bullshit.

Loot Narsbaar

I was/am rewatching VOY and had to stop because at a certain point the quality nosedived and I needed a break.

Sunny

I appreciate that Alex places Eddington’s crime of sabotaging the ship on the same level as causing Chief an extra 10 hours of work. May he forever eat leaning over the replicator, alone and wishing he could be someone’s lunch buddy.

Sunny

Ok if it’s at all comforting to Alex/Josh - I think this two parter is kind of forgettable in this season and in the show as a whole. I love that others are excited because it makes me enjoy looking at it more closely to understand why, but if I were describing 20 great episodes from DS9, this wouldn’t have even crossed my mind.

Doctor Pulaski

@TalynOne Josh & Alex have good taste, so yes I would bet on it. I don't pay people $20/month if I think they have bad taste. They watched and liked "Being There" for F sake, that makes them pretty based for a couple of humans whose brains only finished developing in the last 24-36 months. (male humans brains aren't ready until at least 28)

Doctor Pulaski

This exactly. It's hard for these ones to be pure S tier star trek, because they have too much work to do moving plot. But they are still great, and there are plenty of great standalones in between.

Travis Mc

Fun Fact: Paul Dooley was born Paul Brown in Parkersburg, West Virginia.

Doctor Pulaski

Did Josh & Alex say what I think they said at the very end? How did that happen? I feel so deflated iykyk

Worf and Riker Ride Again

I really wouldn't worry about what to expect going forwards. From my opinion (and sketchy memory), TNG, DS9 and Voyager may have different tones but the overall quality is much of the same. You'll have episodes you love and some you hate, but overall this era of Trek as a whole is very good from a creative and technical standpoint. I would try to ignore the generalisations on where series 'get good', the hate for specific episodes, or even setting an opinion on what staff have been involved in. IMO, this two-parter is very good but pales in comparison to some of the stuff to come, and DS9 is not even my favourite.

Brer

I think this is a good episode but was no one else disappointed that after years and years of building up both the tal'shiar and the obsidian order they are both just completely tossed aside without ever getting to realise their story potential? Also bit convenient for the Defiant to be able to show up to a 150 vs 20 starship battle and just completely get away with it but i'll let it slide On the being worried about DS9 Alex, i'm kind of a hater (as much as one can be a hater of something they've seen through multiple times...) in that I genuinely do not get the sometimes absurd amount of hype DS9 gets compared to the other shows and personally it's my least favourite of classic era trek but even I will still say there are absolutely some episodes ahead that you will love, there's one i'm specifically thinking of near the start of season 4 that is easily one of the best episodes of trek ever produced and it has nothing to do with the dominion or cardassians or anything like that and I will be really surprised if that one doesn't do it for you. (I agree with you about star trek 2 and 6 and past tense btw). The best is yet to come, and the worst too is yet to come

River Acheron

He was ordered by Starfleet Command. What Eddington did was not a crime at all.

TalynOne

I don't get the comment that The Dominion have never encroached on the Alpha Quadrant, for them to not only know but move forward the Tal Shiar/Obsidian order invasion means by definition means they have at least one or more covert operatives working in the Alpha Quadrant pulling strings at very high levels.

Doctor Pulaski

That sucks. Was so excited for the surprise. Oh well.

Trent Bowles

What's to "build up"? They are the intelligence agency/secret police for two totalitarian alien races. There's nothing more to them than that. The Tal'Shiar are only special because Romulans themselves are so secretive that their espionage is often the only interaction we get with that race. As for the Obsidian Order, they clearly only ever existed to expand on Garak's character. Now that this two-parter has made his character more clear to the audience, the Order serves no story purpose. What that build-up DOES accomplish is establishing just how unprepared the Alpha Quadrant is for the Dominion that these two agencies famous for always being two steps ahead never truly understood the threat. Especially watching the Romulans of all races getting caught off-guard? That for me makes the Dominion threat a lot more real than the destruction of the Odyssey.

Aroha

I hope the takes didn't make you guys think that we view this as a favourite episode, I wouldn't put it in my top 30. But I was excited for this reaction because it has a lot of twists and those are some of the best reactions when you guys are surprised by stuff. A great two parter though and wow ds9 only gets better on a second watch for me.

Matchstick Jose

Yeah, we were all waiting for the Eric pop. 🙁

Doctor Pulaski

Eric from Evolution? Yes. Yes of course

Biggysteve

Alex isn’t into the show at this point in its run as much as he wishes he was, and that’s alright. It’s been almost 3 whole goddamn seasons. Count me among those with the benefit of hindsight who know that the lion will get to coming out of its cage in the next ten episodes or less. Right now, you have an amazing layup of characters and events on the chessboard. Soon it will be time to place them all into play.

Trent Bowles

It was always going to be a difficult secret to keep. I always assumed at least one of them knew, but yeah, it's a bummer.

Steven Linden

Really puzzled by the comments... you'd think the guys hate DS9. Seems to me they're enjoying it a lot, on the whole? But if they only give an episode you love an A, the sky is falling I guess? For what it's worth, back when these seasons were airing, I would 100% have said that I liked Voyager better than DS9. Now, knowing the full run of both series, DS9 is my second favorite series just behind TNG. But outside a few idiosyncratic opinions (loving "Meridian", hating "Past Tense"), their opinions seem pretty reasonable and barely out of line with popular consensus.

River Acheron

I am not convinced Alex likes the show. Even Josh sounds as if he doesn't believe Alex is liking it, as per the convo after the episode, if I am interpreting the questioning correctly lol . I do think Josh likes it a lot more and genuinely gets excited for these episodes.

Loot Narsbaar

I think Eric's face is front and center on Paramount +

Loot Narsbaar

I'm not even mad at Eddington. He's not as attached to this crew as the regulars are. He seems to work independently by reporting directly to Todman. He was just doing his job.

River Acheron

That traks. I am more of a horror fan than sci-fi, and only got introduced to Trek during Covid binging. Deep Space 9 is my absolute favorite by FAR because of how different it was to TNG, and how utterly dark and unforgiving it can be. I didn't expect that from some old 90s show lol. Don't misunderstand, I loved TNG as well, but as far as sci-fi in general goes, I realized I like the horrific kind the best. Gritty, dark and even dystopian at times. I am not saying DS9 is dystopian but I mean it was a stepping stone for me to discover cyberpunk, tech-noir, and sci-fi horror like Terminator and Alien (and yes, the first movies of both series ARE horror movies), and things like that. What was my point? Oh, yeah...honestly when I watched DS9, I sighed when the sci-fi got in the way, but it didn't stop it from becoming one of my favorite TV series. I think Alex and Josh will EVENTUALLY feel similarly.

Derek Locke

I think they meant as in a military operation.

Derek Locke

Eddington's crime was interfering with Sisko's crime. Sisko even respected that he was following chain of command and being loyal to Starfleet.

TalynOne

They were talking in context of posing a threat to the Alpha Quadrant. If a foreign entity took control of the KGB, Mi6/CIA and lured them into an ambush I would think that'd be a pretty big deal and considered a direct threat.

TalynOne

They said they liked it then spent 20+ minutes talking about how mid it is and how Alex is not keen on the future of DS9 if this is what it has to offer.

TalynOne

I prefer they know ahead of time, I'll say why when it happens.

TalynOne

I agree the show gets better and better, but I don't agree Alex will necessarily like it. He doesn't seem to care the chessboard exists at all, he just wants episodic character moments. Of course those exist, but it seems the story, which most of us enjoy, just gets in the way of that.

Biggysteve

Alex has disliked Ira Behr since the day he watched Captain’s Holiday. I’m not expecting miracles. But consistently and qualitatively, DS9’s coming character highs are as good as anything the franchise has ever produced. There is plenty to like even if he’s not into the overarching plot.

CommodoreDecker

The Paul Dooley video you guys included was amazing. I love that you guys are able to include things like that. As for the episode, I love it, but that's due to a ton of nostalgia from having taped it on VHS when I was 12 and watching it hundreds of times.

Philbot

I didn’t know Paul Dooley was still alive..

Philbot

Peak? ⛰️

Summer

I am not into seeing people’pop’ for things, if you are surprised or happy or such that is great but I am just watching Trek with others, that is all.

Sam Langanke

When Alex's life sucks the show sucks.

Deliximus

Superb episode. From all the things said in the review, I think they will look back once the series is done and be very satisfied.

River Acheron

Two things I can't understand as a viewer: 1. Being checked out due to a distaste for a director/writer/etc. Yes, Alex is letting his dislike for Ira color his perception 100%. I think he is going into this with some form of preconceived distaste. I think this is completely unfair. Of course everyone has the right to like or dislike what they want, but if it's for this reason, there is a sense of lying to oneself. And I do think due to Ira, Captian's Holiday ruined DS9 for him. Just my opinion but he needs to look past the names on the screen. I'll be honest, until SFDebris and his mocking of some Voyager writers, and moreso with this watchalong, I never ever knew any directors or credits or anything like that. (I don't watch end credits either lol). 2. Liking Character-driven stuff primarily. Now, this one is absolutely fair but I don't understand it because I am the polar opposite. I am into large-scope epics, world-building, lore, etc. For me, in the Walking Dead for example, I am much less concerned about Rick and Carl's father-son relationship and much more concerned about how the zombie apocalypse is affecting the world. The thing is though, I think Alex is very rigid with his tastes, which again is valid, but I do think the potential for a large-scale war with the Federation does not interest him in the least. He is more concerned about Jake and Nog's friendship. I would guess he likes drama movies, tear-jerkers etc. While Trek may occasionally have those episodes, they are not the norm. I think Alex wants more small-scale drama and character study. Again, valid, but it's why I personally believe that there's a lot of Trek he doesn't care for, for this reason. I love horror episodes the best, because it's my genre, obsessively so, actually. But I accept they are rare treats and it doesn't cause me to dislike NON-horror episodes.

Ashley Sigmon

I figure the Romulans and Cardassians didn't cloak because that would just screw with the Federation even more. If they cloaked then the Federation could tell the Dominion that they didn't know about the attack at all. But if the Cardis and Romulans attack a location essentially given to them by the Federation (even if unknowingly) and they go in force past a Federation station, it will be harder for the Federation to deny culpability and they will get drawn into a war.

Doctor Pulaski

Talyn I think I know your reason and I actually agree. Thanks feel better now.

River Acheron

I know there's a running gag of everyone saying when the show reaches that legend status. Here's the truth, though, that I have heard in other places and I agree with: It's when Ira becomes the showrunner. Which is now. Deep Space 9 will not be like it was, and I shall not say how, why, but you'll have to see. But THIS is the moment everyone was dancing around about when the show "gets good." It couldn't be said due to spoilers, but now that you know Ira is the showrunner, yeah...that is the moment everyone was hinting at. Not every episode will be an S, A or B, but for me, many many more are as we go forward. When fans talk about how beloved DS9 is, they mean from THIS point.

Steven Linden

I disagree. The show is already good. Does it continue to improve from this point? Yes, it does. But the whole "THIS is the moment when the DS9 really starts" thing has to stop.

Matchstick Jose

Defiant never cloaks until it's in the Gamma Quadrant either. Maybe cloaks don't function in the wormhole or whatever it is about ships approaching that causes the wormhole to open doesn't work if they're cloaked.

River Acheron

The show's entire focus shifts after this, due to Ira. It's not just on this channel...EVERYONE says the moment things change is when Ira becomes showrunner and the episodes that follow are the ones people remember for reasons I obviously cannot say. What I CAN safely say is he objectively took DS9 in a different direction. Wouldn't you agree? That's what I mean when I says it gets really good...for most fans. I would say it's as big a show-shift as TNG starting season 3. (The only difference is TNG seasons 1 and 2 were HORRIBLE, and DS9 seasons 1, 2, and 3 were good. I agree. But the rest of season 3 up until the end is legendary and you know why, but we cannot say those reasons). Ofc this is hard to talk about without details but I mean from an objective showrunning standpoint of a shift in the series. From this point on is what most fans think of when they think "Deep Space 9" Also; lets be fair. The goal-post is not really being moved as much as its being touted. From the beginning people have said the vast shift is between seasons 3 and 4. At least that's what most people have been saying. That does put us around this spot, the point where they did a course-correction with the series, much in the same way they did after TNG season 2. You also have to remember that it is at this point (Ira taking over, Voyager solidifying itself) when Paramount let DS9 do whatever it wanted, within reason. This isn't a fan theory. Showrunners confirmed this. Paramount literally stop caring about DS9 to focus on Voyager and an unchecked Ira is a good Ira! I honestly believe his clunkers before this were due to studio meddling. Now he has complete free-reign and DS9 became the best Trek we EVER had for a lot of fans. Not everyone, and some TOS die-hards hated what it stood for, disregarding Gene's vision etc. But that's what I honestly love about it. So this isn't just some "it gets good from here" post. Its more objective than that, bssed on what happened behind the scenes, which was a major course-correction.

Deliximus

The quality range for s4-s6 is good to greatness for most episodes. S7 has some misses for obvious reasons, but still great, especially the finale run.

Incredible Jon

Ahhh, in all big trek battles, just like Wolf 359, all ships involved never seem to remember they have shields 😅 makes for more exciting battles though.

Mark Wood

Dominion weapons go right through shields. And the defiant pulse phasers are more effective than normal phasers of going through shields. So in this case at least it’s not so bad

Erik L Jerks

Fans are going to fan, but we have to remember that DS9 overall is a "cult" hit and was never the flagship show. Is it my favorite? Absolutely. But I don't know if it has as much universal appeal as TNG or Voyager because it exists in this odd place in Trek. For my money it takes bigger swings (and sometimes has bigger misses) than just about every other Trek show.

Erik L Jerks

That's maybe the strength and weakness of the DS9 format. They are constantly doing character moments within larger stories. Yes, there are some episodes dedicated solely to character work, but a lot of the "filler" in episodes is some of the best stuff

Jaymison Boeker

It's apparent that Alex still has PSTD from Past Tense. His reactions to basically every episode of the show after the two parter has been clouded by this sense of dread.

Loot Narsbaar

the Defiant was made to take on a motherfucking Borg Cube

Loot Narsbaar

If were judging series by how often the show makes us shed tears, TNG did that on average once a season for me? I think DS9 has already equaled that in under 3. (Voyager not once) This show was always going to be an uphill battle to start because it didn't take place on ship, we don't beam down to planets, and it's a big help if you care about the lore of the universe. What I don't really get how harsh they were towards season one with comparison to TNG or VOY because DS9 s1 has higher highs (which is what they claim they want), even if it is inconsistent at best. Chalk it up to a difference in taste because I don't think VOY has been that good so far (Maybe one A through 13 episodes) and I don't understand the praise.

reactive1

I enjoyed “Improbable Cause” more than this episode. It’s a solid two-parter though.

Loot Narsbaar

I'm not worried because, worst case scenario, it'll be fun when we get to discuss why a C- episode of Voyager is actually an S, while back to back A episodes of DS9 indicate the sky is falling re: the future of the show. (which won't happen: the honeymoon period with VOY will end, or just ended)

Deep Red

I appreciate the candid discussion about your concerns, Alex. I am an anxious person, and I also tend to be a pessimist, so I definitely related to some of the things you were saying that you were concerned about. But at the end of the day, I try to take things as they are, rather than what I would like them to be. I'm happy when I like something but I'm not disappointed that it didn't change my life. Sometimes, something be a B or an A is good. I love what you and Josh do even when you watch Star Trek 6. And we are just taking this ride together

Biggysteve

I think Voyager shows the most promise in its Season 1, and has some strong episodes to support the premise of a lone vessel wrestling with upholding its guiding principles in a hostile, lonely place. Where it starts to falter, DS9 starts to soar, IMO. Maybe the guys will feel the same, maybe they'll feel different. I don't watch this channel just so my opinions can be validated by theirs. I like their contrasting perspectives.

Scott B.

I had long been hoping only one of them was spoiled but knowing the box art for S4 I knew it was a longshot :(

River Acheron

That's fair, Erik. I don't mean DS9 doesn't have character growth. It absolutely does! But there's very little SWIFT character growth. It sort of happens slowly throughout the series and you don't notice much of it until you look back at prior episodes/seasons. Look how chunmy Julian and Miles are now and think back to them in The Storyteller. The growth happened slowly and organically. DS9 doesn't have many (yes there are some but not many) "ah-ha!" small-scale character pieces, especially compared to other Treks. DS9 has always been about depicting the larger picture with the character stuff happening along the way. And I just think Josh is pretty locked into this so far, but as far as Alex is concerned, it's not his style. Biggysteve; yeah. Completely. As much as I detest what Voyager will become, I like the first few seasons. Then, it went from not my cup of tea, to almost unwatchable. For me. Voyager is just not my Trek and the things I began to dislike by season 4 onward were harder and harder to ignore before I said to myself "I just don't like this show anymore." It remains to be seen what Alex and Josh will feel about Voyager, (or Deep Space 9 for that matter), they may even go in opposite directions of what they like, which would make for interesting banter! We will see!

Kevin Jackson

That was the season 2 finale for me. From that point on this show becomes legendary status but hey that's just me.

Kevin Jackson

I'm getting a similar impression. They like some shows and aspects but don't really seem to be all that impressed. But hey it's whatever. I just shrug my shoulders. No they're not completely crapping on the show but they aren't really that impressed it seems.

John M.

Different strokes as always, but when you talk about this ep. not quite having the emotional way in, I disagree. I find "You know what the sad thing is; I'm a very good tailor" some novel-level brilliant writing. Gives me goosebumps no matter how many times I've seen it.

Kevin Jackson

VOY has been cool in Season One but not compared to the level of Season 3 DS9 but that's just me. 😅

Deep Red

If anything, TA is actually kind of mirroring a lot of people's experience back in the day. I didn't absolutely fall in love with DS9 when I first watched it. The first time I rewatched it, I said it was good, but TNG will always have that special place in my heart. Rewatching the series now with TA has convinced me that DS9 is my favorite ST series after all. I just appreciate it more the more I watch it.

harrypothead42024

So, has something in season 4 already been spoiled? If so, Did everyone but me know?

Steven Linden

Yeah, at this point when the shows were airing, I definitely liked TNG and Voyager more than DS9. By a few seasons later, I would have picked DS9 over Voyager. DS9 is more of a "the whole is greater than the sum of its parts" show. Which is why it's kind of frustrating when people hype up certain episodes to such an extreme.

Steven Linden

I think pointing to this exact episode as some sort of huge turning point is insane, and that without knowing the behind-the-scenes stuff, no one would pinpoint this moment as pivotal. But I don't want to wade into further debate about if, when, and how the course of the show changes for fear of getting into territory we should't be talking about yet.

JoeCensored

I think they just mention their criticisms, which is being interpreted as dislike. But I think it is just easier to point out what could be improved than what worked great.

River Acheron

I just am saying what most fans say about Ira becoming showrunner and when the show reached what people remember it for. And you absolutely can point to a specific episode when a show decides to change the direction of a series. I wanna be careful about what I say, not because I am spoiling anything. We have been careful. I don't wanna give them overhyped excitement. They may hate what is to come and think it doesn't feel like Star Trek. There ARE fans that do not like DS9, and not to generalize but they tend to be older TOS fans that think DS9 committed some offense against Gene. (My prediction is Josh will end up liking the series, and Alex won't but again, that's just my prediction.) I personally praise the show for doing something darker and different and even a little pessimiistic at times. I just personally believe Ira was the best thing to EVER happen to Trek (prior and after). In my opinion, Ira Steven Behr was a better storyteller in GENERAL than Gene Roddenberry. My personal preference. See, I just don't agree with this notion that sci-fi needs to be all optimistic about things. But that's another discussion.

Deliximus

Soooo many of their questions and 'wants' will be answered

BN13

This episode is such a big deal because it finally shows how the Dominion actually works and why they are such a threat. The whole reason why they are a big deal is they DON'T need to come into the Alpha quadrant super obvious with guns blazing like all of our other Star Trek villains would. They're much smarter than that. Instead, as shown here, they can conquer the whole quadrant from behind the scenes with minimal involvement, minimal risk, and minimal casualties, and you won't even know they've started until it's checkmate. This episode shows that you don't ever know that the Dominion wants to take you over until they've already taken you over. They win through strategy, patience, intelligence, and turning your own plans, fear, and pride against you. This is what the female changeling meant when she said "The Alpha quadrant seems ripe with chaos. We are willing to wait until the time is right." "Waiting" doesn't mean that they were sitting idle this whole season. "Waiting" means they've been patiently listening in, and carefully setting up chess pieces off screen that we don't know about. This isn't a "you leave us alone, we'll leave you alone" situation. In The Search, they warned us that they are actively planning to eventually take over the Alpha quadrant. That hasn't changed. This whole plan with Tain wasn't a simple retaliation for his plans, or a small defensive plan to protect their homeworld where they would have left them all alone if they had just stayed in the Alpha quadrant. This WAS their first offensive attack into the Alpha quadrant to strategically eliminate both the Cardassians and the Romulans in one efficient blow. And they did it by getting Tain of all people, to do it for them, destroying his own Obsidian order in the process. This was step one to them in destabilizing the entire Alpha quadrant, so later on, "when the time is right," they can take it over without firing a shot. Eventually, they will have systematically set everything up to where we have all destroyed ourselves by then, just like the Cardassians and the Romulans did here. Plans like this are their main weapon, and why they are so dangerous. They don't win through force, they win through patience and intelligence, and quietly working behind the scenes. And ironically, they win because we allow them to. This whole thing was a plan to take out the Obsidian Order and the Tal Shiar. If it didn't happen by Tain's plan, then they would have orchestrated something else to take them out. And you can conclude from the Changling's line in this episode that they already have a similar plan set up to take out both the Federation and the Klingons. The question now is will either the Federation or the Klingons realize what that plan is before it's too late? Or will they completely unknowingly buy into it, just like Tain here with their own Caesarian hubris, doing exactly what the Dominion wants them to do until they've unknowingly weakened and destroyed themselves. The Dominion doesn't ever have to send anyone into the Alpha quadrant if they get us to do all the work for them. And that's why they are such a unique and interesting villain.

BN13

The whole reason why Wolf 359 was so devastating is Picard gave all of the ship's codes to the Borg so the ships HAD no sheilds. Same thing here. The Jem'Hadar weapons go right through shields. They may as well not have them at all. They didn't "forget" that they had them. The enemy made them useless.

Target Audience

We both knew before the box set. It’s essentially impossible not to know.

Doctor Pulaski

Well, you are getting the authentic 90s experience then, because we all knew as well :)

Deliximus

Exactly. It's actually way more scary that they can exact this much damage. More to come

Deliximus

DS9 got better and better as the seasons went on. They purposely raised the stakes every season. They peaked in s6 imo, s7 was great but we should alway know why and where the pitfalls/challenges were. Meanwhile, Voyager just fell off a cliff in quality. My buddies and I only finished Voyager because it had star Trek in its name.

River Acheron

I would say NOW ds9 is the favorite Trek. I wouldn't call it cult today, it became the favorite over time. Most Star Trek fans I know, all in our 20's consider this the best. I see that online as well. I think it's an example of a late discovery rather than cult, at least by today's standards.

Prof Moff

DS9 sex scoreboard Shootin' blanks again this ep The sex score board Quark 5 Jadzia 3 Sisko 2 Chief 1 Keiko 1 Odo 1 Kira 1 Bashir 1 Jake 1

Walt Vita

This was a great episode.. Andrew Robinson kills..

Walt Vita

Better cardassian at this point.. Garek or Dukat?

Paul

Wow, the Paul Dooley cameo was amazing, and he's 98 with that kind of mental clarity? What a boss! As for the episode, this is an S for me because of the Garak and Odo torture scene. Remarkable acting from both of those legends. Otherwise, I'd give it an A. It's rare for an episode to be elevated up to perfection from a single scene, but it can happen. Another example of that would be Sarek back in TNG, with Patrick Stewart's otherworldly overflow of Sarek's emotions. As far as the Dominion is concerned, do you think they have a legitimate claim over the entire quadrant? If so, does it purely come down to might makes right pragmatism in the end? Alex, I know you're worried, but I PROMISE you, even just in S4 but also beyond, there are episodes that are going to blow your mind and make your soul weep. Just you wait.

Paul

We all know the episode you're speaking of Brer and yes, best episode of TV ever produced. I can't wait...

Paul

TalynOne, I think it's the opposite. Their tastes are specifically mainstream, normal. They prefer character pieces, dramas. Which is what most people prefer. Sci-fi and epic-scope stories are very niche.

StonyD

They have seen the box art of the cast on the Blurays they are watching back during TNG. They know someone is coming in S4.

A Plain and Simple Tailor

Alex has already decided he dislikes it. So he is checked out. Not a good look for a reactor.

JordanK1991

For me, this two-parter definitely has S written all over it. Having said that, it doesn't even make it into my personal top 10 of the series. The best is yet to come.

Matchstick Jose

Big advertising push. TV Guide covers, even.

BN13

I think they mean the emotional weigh in for them personally. Heart of Stone for instance, spoke to each of their own personal traumas. This isn't going to weigh in on a personal level for them like that one did.

Ryan Roach

Probably; we'll see.

paultardspambot .

so havent watched the posgt episode discussion but Garak saying "The fault is not in our stars but ourselves" is from Shakespeare, calling back to the conversation Garak and Bashir were haing at the start of this two parter. And obviously it hit Garak that what Odo was hiding was the desire to be amongst his people despite the same conflicted feelings Garak had about them. It makes sense cloaking devices dont work in the wormhole. A cloaking device manipulates space and light to block all signals and is very sophisticated but can be easily disurpted. The wormhole is two blackholes thagt warp space so much that the normal rules of physics break down and matter is propelled from one to the other by the extreme warping of space-time but preserved in the forms it's in by the beings who live inside that live outside of time in the sense we understand it. There's no way a cloaking device could work given those conditions where the very laws of phyics break down. Yes, I think any matter entering eith side SHOULD spagettify because of the extreme gravity but I guess it's not that way because of the prophets. Though there has long been the idea that theoretically a wormhole could be used to travel FTL which seems to imply this some crazy case where spaghettification wouldnt happen but I don't frankly understand that at all, I'd have to do some research. Physics with black holes is really nuts. The Defiant does finally show how how effective a warship it is. They take out what, six jem'hadar fighters? Those phasor pulse canons just annihilate thos ships, and Dominon ships are tough. Remember the Defiant wa built to fight the Borg.

paultardspambot .

So I'd be curious for Alex to expand on why the big scale galatic consequences plot stuff pulls him out a bit. I think many people love the epic scale of DS9. I'd be interesting in why that seems to turn off Alex. I don't think its a spoiler here to say this epic scale stuff continues and is a major part of the show. Maybe it's because you guys don't seem to like the Federation as a concept. For me, a major theme here is that while yes, the Federation has flaws, it IS genuinely utiopian and I think groking this show really depends on relating to those stakes. I'm going to go back and write a way too late take, but I think this is also why you guys hated the time travel two parter. You missed that it's not "about" poverty, it's about humanity and hope versus despair and apathy. The line from Bashir... "something like "If the federation was facing a bad enough threat would we overcome or would we find ourselves just back here. This is part of the "spiritual" aspect of DS9 that you guys arent relating to, and a major part of trek that you havent really seemed to connect that, that optimism about the future and human potentisl. So I think maybe not realy being invested in the Federation or sort of understanding what it represents is maybe why the connection is missing. Like it IS about these characters because these are the ideals they are commiited to. Probably part of it is because youve watched this all so fast instead of being part of the cultural background there for decades, but DS9 is definitely about "what does it mean to try to hold on to that and defend it and fight for it when the problem is overwhelming. The time travel episode connects to the general themes of the show very well. I think it speaks to our modern world maybe better then it did at the time, because there's a sense that there are all these negative things going in a bad direction, and what can anyone do about it, and the things people try to do just seem to make things worse. I think if you just see it as space opera for the sake of space opera, maybe thats what pulls you out. Not really being invested in the Federation as a concept or seeing those deeper themes that make us care about this fictional world. This is really the first trek show that takes on everything thats been built and goes from a frontier outpost which becomes the central point of view for this "world of Star Trek" to feel like a huge, real place where these matters of galatic import are happening. Instead of a traveling ship where every episode goes to a new place, we are seeing what happens have galactic effects that stay and change and then those changes lead to new developments. Previous Trek had continuity, but you didn't really have the same thing where something that happened changed the entire galactic situation and that is not just "ok, turn the page", these things affect the status quo of that world and they change things for the future. To me it seems like thagt has way more stakes then a TNG space battle.

paultardspambot .

Enabran Tain DID know who Dr Bashir was. Remember Bashir visited him at the end of The Wire and he freaked Bashir out knowing evertything about him. A person like Tain would have to have an excellent memory and Cardassians are already known for their great memories which are enhanced by state training. So Tain knew who Bashir was and Garak knew that Tain knew who Bashir was.

paultardspambot .

Keeping Eddington at his station made sense. Eddington doesnt really know these people and he got a direct order. He was straightforward about it and correctly said he didnt damage any of the weapon systems. Sisko is a starfleet officer and he cant blame him for following a direct order. Imagine if he put him in the brig, that would be the end of his career. Sisko believes in the chain of command and understands he was following an order by a direct superior officer. Eddington gave him his word as an officer and Sisko accepts that. That is very much also in the character of Sisko. He's willing to bend the rules and even break them but he absolutely believes in starfleet and the Federation. You can't get to be a commander if you don't. Its funny because the fan base has a lot more theorizing and "semi-canon" about how these things must work. I read a TNG novel where An Admiral tells Picard what it's your call. We then get an explanation in terms of Picar'd understanding that makes perfect sense. It's your call means "it's you call." As in, we're trusting you to make the right decision, but if you make the wrong one its on you. Picard says that this is why Starfleet works- they do actually give a lot of authonomy to their commanders and you CAN break the rules IF the end result works. If it doesn't, you're court martialed. This balances the chain of command with a practically function system. Admirals may seem out of touch but its because they all have like 20 things at one time that are immediate and urgent and another 100 or so that still have to be done. Starfleet is a disciplined and effective organization but not an authoritarian one. It understands and gives great deference to their on scene commanders who are elite and the uper organization is actually good overall but the sheer bureacracy of running such a huge and complex organization, plus the usual political stuff of 150 different member races... And Starfleet isnt the whole federation. I think this explanation makes a lot of sense to me but it wasn't something this writer just pulled out of whole clothe, this was a description of the way seems to actually work in the world of the Show and he's putting that logic out there explicitly as part of Picard's thought process when it would be. Yes, the "real" explanation might be going to the well out of the of touch distant official conflicitng with "our guys" on the ground. But when you think about it, this kind of "in universe" explanation makes sense, and there were and are a lot of fans who have put the pieces together about how things work in theis universe extracted from those kind of needs. But I think you are right that DS9 does a great job of being more... self aware then TNG and wanting to make this world a more "real, lived in place" where characters make sense as real people and not just plot convenience. Which is part of what again, makes DS( so great. It takes this world that has been built but in a wahy makes it all feel more real. For many of us, that heightens the stakes of the big plot stuff. We care about this fictional place because or characters have cared about it, and it underlies there most basic motivations. Maybe Alex is burned out on that kind of big scale storytelling and seeing things in the lens of plot cliches, but for those of us bought in, we feel that this universe has earned it, we are investd in this world as we are rooting for the characters so this "addining dimensionality" to things while keeping it esentially Star Trek, but as TNG was an evolution from TOS, DS9 evolves to the point where, for me anyway, it actually made me appreciate the bigger universe more and be interested in the "fictional timeline" of things and see episodes from the past and reinterpret them understanding the history and DS9 really taked the continuity to do a more epic scale story then what it's done before. I do think you guys are missing the "spiritual"/"inspirational" aspect as this was a more mature version of that world. It didn't contradict what came before, it elevated it. As Roddenberry really got into his rep from TOS as a utopian visionry informed the way TNG was going to be different, This show takes it and yes, as many say, takes a closer eye into it all and its messines... But it's still essentially the same Federation it always has been and DS( if very much aware of how those themes and ideas intersect with a more filled out reality in a time of crisis Even after we learn from TNG the Gill Worm invasion has been internally collapsing the federation, still, there's a sense from the beginning of TNG on that the Federation was a much greater power then it was on TOS. This makes sense as it was looking at things through the lens of being the lone global superpower- The historical time for this was the end of the Cold War and the "unipolar-american moment" when the US, relative to all other countries, was at the absolute peak of its power and seemed to habe become the most dominant, unchallenged power in history. That was the Federation being considered then, where the Prime Directive became deeper as a social poltiical question exactly because we are thinking about the questions as how does an actuall good superpower do things? With the literal most important rule being to be exceedingly careful about using that power. So DS9 starts as wanting to see how instead of on the Flagship, things are on the messy posts. We immediately have a kind of focus on Cardassia and Bajor built into the premise that we have to as audeince members care about those and they have to feel like real lived places where things matter and history and the future intersect. So we started with that premise.. but then watch this crew grow up into a real "crew" where now the base is maybe the most important place in the quadrant, they are no longer trying to run a gutted cardassian occupation base into a Bajoran part co-operated by starfleet in the hopes of having a key strategic member so close to Cardassia, and this crew is at the center of galactic intrigue of monumental import while still dealing with all the idiosyncratic politics of their position which we've already established. They are the first line of defense in an invasion they prey will never come but seem far too eventual. And this is a threat that could literally destroy that world. DS9 manages to sustain stakes that haven't really been felt since The Best of Both Worlds. But this is not a one off enemy. And as we've seen, its a different kind of enemy. Its not just beter technology or stronger ships or genetically engineered slave soldiers. The Founders have been watching the Alpha Quadrant and learning. They are ten times the size of the Federation and centuries older. I feel like if your bought into those stakes, you get to see our Characters motivations and what they are dealing with and facing into a "deeper story". Like... DS9 begins to feel like its actually one long epic story and threads weave and stakes rise. I feel like this enhances the characters and their journeys and motivations, epecially given These specific chaarcters and their expereinces. It seems to me like separating the character drama from the stakes of the thing the characters care about makes there character interactions more narrow.

paultardspambot .

They need a chief of security if Hem'Hadar board the ship. And we have seen security officers who can man tactical and weapons stations, so it makes sense. Or if, like... Someone on board wasn't who you thought they was. Keep in mind... A Changeling can lool like anyone or anything. It could be... a gas. You would want a chief of security whose been trained as he surely has on how to plan countermeasures.

paultardspambot .

It wasn't just to wrap up the mystery. The way Eddington handles it is what allows Sisko to give him his station back. He followeed his order but hes not going to sabotage their chances at success. The giving him his word part and being so upfront about the order he had to follow. He followed the order, after completion of announced and explained it. Yes, it's possible he had additional orders, but the Admiral wouldn't have ordered him to do something that would compromise the Defian't safety, especially when there is a taskforce of 9 ships at DS( anyway.

paultardspambot .

The irony of the revealtion of the secret, that even though he had turned his back on them he still wanted to be amongst his people.. the irony that Garak's very motivation for this torture is the same "secret" Odo had was a HUGE moment for his character. Then, quoting Shakespeare to Tain- who hed insulted in the first conversation with Bashir- it was basically his recognition of the legitimacy of some things he had been picking up from the Federation. Then, all his suspicions about Cardassian society and his resentments manifest when he sees ths scale of this folly and how the founders so easily played Tain, and Tain's completr collapse when he realizes it the end for him and the Obsidian Order when Tain was the mentor he.. if not admired, cared about his approval. I mean, that is the kind of thing that will have a major impact on a person. Garak is dark but not stupid. It was a huge moment for the characeter and his evolution.

paultardspambot .

Garak knew there was something he wasnt saying about the Founders. He gives two shits that Odo loves Kira. That has no relevance to the purpose of the interrogation.

paultardspambot .

Garak and Odo have deep character moments, in Garak's case, a monumental character event

paultardspambot .

Alex's point was HOT on. You can actually start to understand a little why maybe the changelings are so paranoid. He's right. If they handt gotten to poking around in the Gamma Quadrant, none of this would be an issue. And the Dominion actually waited two years by announving itself. Now I'm not justifying the Dominion. But absolutely it's interesting- it's a threat but its also a very dangerous situation for everyone. This is realistically how wars start, espeically "Great Power" Wars. Like this feels very realistic to the established universe that the problem isnt just the threat from the Dominion but how other "Great Powers" will react to the Dominion. Which opens all this intrigue and complexity. I know I have very different takes with you a lot, but that one was exactly right. We're deaing with a realistically complex political situation which is balancing act. That opens up al kinds of narratives possibiliites, but it also makes thing more ambiguous then they should be.

Matthew Ganz

When Ceasar crossed the rubicon he is rumored to have said "alea iacta est" -- which translates as "The Die Is Cast". This is very much a "Crossing The Rubicon" -- two major Alpha quadrant powers have been seemingly crippled -- stay tuned!

paultardspambot .

Theres also a very unique lifeform that lives inside the wormhole which would go against starfleet's value to destroy for their own political conveince. I mean, they apparently were willing to do it as an option of last resort which is actually an important plot point. There is the possibility that The Dominion realizes they can't get enough ships through before Starfleet will destroy it. You don't survive as long as the Federation has being complete collective idiots. But it's an absolute last resort they would consider. With the Dominion knowing this, it opens up the possibility this is the only reason there hasn't been a full scale invasion. So If the Founders are playing the long game and trying to prepare for that eventual plan... And based on how long term and strategic the Founders are, that's a real possibility. So it may be that You're trying to prevent a war that's inevitable and all you can do is delay it. You very much hope that's not the case. But you do have to be ready for the possibility. So it is a realistic complex political question. Maybe the Dominion would back off if they just closed traffic to the wormhole. But you clearly cant trust them, and you're not sure. Whats been going on if you were paying close attention was the Dominion made a very aggressive violent demand that they stay on their side of the wormhole. But the exit in the gamma quadrant is outside Dominion territroy. Not that the Dominion has official borders, but it's outside the area where the Dominion clearly dominates. So whats been going on since is that the federation is still allowing cargo and science ships through but adivising them to stay out of Dominion congtrolled space and the Defiant's mapping has ben in non Dominion space, thought the dominions reach extends beyond those limits. So Basically the Federation's position is- you never told us this was your territory and you attack us and tell us we cant use the wormhole. From the Federation's point of view, The Dominion essentially blockading a major passage that because it's too close their zone of control is not conduct of a "reasonable" state actor so this is the kind of thing the Federation in theory guarantess to its various member worlds, we will defend ways of passage from blockage in the cases of neutral territory

paultardspambot .

So the starfleet policy makes sense. We'll go in, stay away from the Dominion, but also sort of map the far edges of their borders of influence. I get thats a subtle point that you guys might not have picked up on, but in terms of big stakes political thriller thats realistic, the Federation is not going to back down from what they see as a danegerous aggressive bully who has apparrntly claimed the entire Gamma Quadrant as their Territory. The Federation also has to consider looking weak in front of the other powers, It would be the end of Bajor-Federation relations and essentially a failure of the mission, and at this point Sisko really cares about Bajor Like he as a solemn duty to it. Killing the Prophets is the worst case option. Also... in the simulation they werent the real prophets. So Beings who actually live outside are not gonna see you coming to kill them? In reality there would be no chance. And even more weirdly, while the Founders hate the solids, aka humanoids, they dont necessarily hate life and they may see the death of the Prophets as another example of Humanoids at their worst destroying what they dont understand. Actually... now that I think about it, the FACT there are beings in the wormhole and the Founders know that sisko knows this, that choice could have seem monstrous. Committing genocide to stop us.

Naglfarius

First early View buy, becuase tommorow i will be gone for 3 Weeks, but i wanted to see the conclusion of the 2 Parter before. ^^

Anthony Goodwin

Leon Russom, who plays the admiral, was also Starfleet's Commander-in-Chief in Star Trek VI, both, in the briefing scene about the future of the Klingon Empire after the destruction of Praxis, its moon, and the Camp Khitomer scenes toward the end of the movie.

Tim Nikiforovs

I'd give this episode an A+ or S, though I understand not being blown away by it if this kind of "pieces moving on the chessboard" story isn't what you're looking for. Can I just say though, everyone needs to chill the eff out. If we're constantly hyping up the show to a level where it's unrealistic to expect them to be THAT excited about it, and then acting like the sky is falling when it's "just fine" or "just good", it's just going to ruin the experience for all involved. They'll either love the show, or they won't. There's not a damn thing we can do about it, so we might as well relax and take the journey for what it is. As with the first part, some great Garak and Odo stuff. Not surprising that deep down Odo misses his people. Also love how in the end, despite having tortured him, Odo seems to see something of himself in Garak. A man who can't go home. And FINALLY the Defiant genuinely kicks some ass. I mean it did get to shine a bit in it's eponymous episode, and it still took out a Jem'Hadar ship in The Search despite being outnumbered 3 to 1. But here, it just wades into this massive battle, takes out 5 ships like it's nothing, and skedaddles. Little bit of redemption of that tough little ship. Obviously, the ships destroyed in the nebula aren't even a very significant fraction of the romulan or cardassian fleets, but the loss in intelligence personnel is what's truly crippling. Especially with the revelation that changelings can perfectly mimic humanoids, the Obsidian Order and Tal Shiar would be 2 of the greatest roadblocks to infiltration. I have to say though, I disagree about the Romulans being more straight up villainous than the Cardassians. Yes, the Romulans have a somewhat repressive society, but not anywhere near the level of the Cardassians. It's like comparing China and North Korea. Wouldn't want to live in either, but if I had to choose, China all day. Romulans have been shown fairly often to not be entirely divorced from the kinds of values humans embrace. Jarok aside, we've seen a good number of relatable romulans. Telek R'Mor is a great example. Also in The Chase, it was the romulan commander that reached out to Picard and seemed most receptive of the message of unity. Also episodes like Timescape, The Enemy, Unification and Face of the Enemy all showed us Romulans who were either open minded to start with or who were willing to be convinced. Sure, they did plan to destroy DS9 in Visionary, but let's be real, even Alex is now saying seal the wormhole. So to be fair, they arguably had the right idea.

Colby

Oh, no! What if Alex doesn't like it as much as most people do? It would be like hating on Star Trek 6 or something. The world would end. 😉

Forbidden Donut

I know they liked it, I get that, but... during the watch, they still felt slightly detached? Like talking over some dialog that might have been good to hear because they were more interested in a joke or comment? I get that they always, in general, do that, but in this one it just came off a little like the episodes didn't fully connect with them, and in doing so, I think they missed a little bit. I dunno. Might partially explain why they're both kind of B and A on both part 1 and two of this, whereas some of us really love this two-part story more.

Mark Magana

Holy crap! I didn't know Pail Dooley was still alive! Very cool!

Some Guy

Still disappointed we didn't get to see Bashir eating Garak's rod.

DEMYTRA

that line "you know what the sad thing is? i'm a very good tailor" always makes me cry tbh. its obvious that garak hates his life on ds9 in most aspects, but now that hes grown too fond of the people on it to genuinely consider leaving anymore, he wishes he didn't.

BN13

I think a lot of fan favorite, Dominion episodes like this, they'll like a lot more once they've seen the whole show and are doing a rewatch, if they end up caring about the whole world building aspect of the show at all. A lot of episodes like this hit different once you know where everything is going.

Some Guy

And on top of that the Dominion will not let a challenge stand

Jonathan Llyr

It would seem that more and more often these days, Alex’s reactions to these top shelf DS9 episodes are a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma. 😉 I think that this episode is an S the whole way and it means we’re going to have to break out double-S, triple-S and even quadruple-S for future episodes. 😉😉

jon bolton

S! Probably not a surprise as i've made no secret of Cardassians and Romulans being my favourite species.

JB

Star trek and wrestling really do go together, though more so for voyager. Especially in the period when voyager and WWF smackdown were both on UPN, you'd get a lot of teasers for WWF during voyager ad breaks.

Avaria

There's certainly friction that is important to keep in mind. Very nearly the first thing Jadzia Dax says upon meeting a representative of the Dominion back at, I think, the end of "The Jem'Hadar," is "You can't stop us from exploring the Gamma Quadrant!" And it's said in this indignant, righteous tone that pre-supposes that the Federation has a right to go wherever it damn well pleases in the name of discovery or knowledge or whatever. I feel bad for her that she was assigned that line, even though, as the Science Officer, it made the most sense for her to say it, of anyone present. But it does kind of put her in the role of Miss Manifest Destiny 1994. An official from a clearly long-established governing power that you've heard spoken about and seen evidence of prior to now presents themself to inform you that this same long-established governing power has objections to the way you and your associated factions have been conducting themselves in that power's territory, as well as the steps they've taken in response to those objections, and your immediate response is along the lines of how dare you tell us what to do? Yeah... can't imagine how the Federation has managed to be at war with nearly every major power in its own galactic hemisphere at one point or another.

Todd

Bashir missing his boyfriend. Loved the changes with your LCARS frame. I thoroughly enjoyed these episodes of Star Trek: Deep Space 9 starring Andrew Robinson. I'm sure Alex will enjoy the next episode.

Retro Tom

Not a heel turn, but maybe I'd say Garek & Tain shaking hands is equal to Hogan & Savage on Saturday Night's Main Event as a big holy crap moment

Avaria

One other thing that strikes me about the Dominion is that they do sort of embody the antithesis of nearly everything we've been told the Federation, and particularly humans, value. They are kind of designed to be the stark, twisted reflection of the Federation. * Introverted, insular and manipulative core power group * A heavy reliance on genetic engineering * Governance through fear rather than altruism * Reliance on a conscripted army of enforcers (also genetically engineered) * An implied caste system on a galactic scale (not just the Founders/Vorta/Jem'Hadar, but there's a suggestion that the Dominion has gone so far as to dictate what the role of each system under its control is permitted to be) * Xenophobic foreign relations philosophy and a sense of order rigid enough to excuse atrocity. Long term interaction, without cooperative immersion or intermediaries, was pretty well doomed to failure one way or another -- either through direct conflict or severance. And I guess the implication is that, since we're fence-line neighbors now, severance ceased to be an option. Which also makes it interesting that it's the Romulans and the Cardassians that end up accelerating things. And, from a long-term perspective, they probably had the right idea. Maybe it was a case of like recognizing like in a way that the Federation would never allow itself to do.

Aaron Wells

Being character focused is fine and all...but the entire point of DS9 is transcending just having character stand in a room and say lines to each other...and move into some serious business. Large-scale, high concept, epic story telling. DS9 is the payoff for having spent years building up these various nation states in the Star Trek universe. Why take the time to build up the Federation, the Klingons, the Romulans, The Cardassians, Bajorans, The Dominion... if not to have macro scale interaction? These aren't just foreheads of the week, these are major powers in a galactic setting... They are entire civilizations and cultures... The interplay of civilizations instead of mere individuals is an exponential growth in awesomeness. To appreciate DS9, one has to at least be open to something other than the tunnel vision of character. There's a lot more than that going on here.

Matt G Cowart

"Someone's on the way". It looks like "they know".

Matt G Cowart

They know. They, basically, gave "the look" when they said it.

captveg

Which is unfortunate, but so big I can see why they couldn't avoid it. I'm sure they'll explain when they learned of it and hopefully it's not from a viewer just telling them.

AdmiralMurphy

Alex is pretty much in the position I was in with Doctor Who with Chris Chibnall when he took over as head writer there. So I get his concern when he hasn't liked Iras work and now he's in charge. When you don't like one writer on a show and they them take over it doesn't always go well.

captveg

Ira the show runner >>> Ira the episode writer. They're different skill sets. Show runner is closer to the role of director than writer in many ways. Most valuable skill for a show runner is to put the writing staff, crew and cast in the best position to succeed by giving them the best outline to follow and goals to reach. In other words, have the overall vision. IMO this is what happens with DS9 under Ira. But also - 26 episodes a season, so there's still gonna be a few misfires.

AdmiralMurphy

My parents would get me like one season of a show on dvd as a kid at a time and I remember getting voyager season 1, liked it, and the season 2 I could never finish the set. Until I watched season 2 last year again I thought it was trash but honestly that season just has a lot of mid, a few great eps, and a few terrible, and it was those terrible that always had me just skip season 2 on rewatches.

captveg

Sisko is a loyal dude, even when he's being "disloyal." A cool scene for him and Eddington to have once one has seen the whole show.

TinMan_7B9

About that discussion at the end, just remember: "You can't always get what you want But if you try sometime, you just might find You just might find that you get what you need"

Skye Maidstone

The most S of S tiers. One of the top episodes of the franchise. If only writing was like this these days.

Loot Narsbaar

I believe this is attributed to the philosopher Jagger

Skye Maidstone

DS9 doesn't suddenly get good. It has bursts of greatness even early on. It's just that the overall level just gets better and better as it goes on. With the occasional turd obviously.

Skye Maidstone

This episode is a masterpiece but I doesn't quite make my top 10 ds9 episodes. Close though. After they end season 7 it would be interesting to know how people have the same episode as their top. I'm not a fam of The Inner Light (or The Bonding) at all. Yesterday's Enterprise for me. What will DS9s equivalent be? If we haven't had it already...

Loot Narsbaar

In The Search 2, Dax (acting as first officer) prepares the runabout to collapse the entrance of the wormhole. I interpret this as closing the Alpha end but leaving the Gamma open and leaving the prophets unharmed

Ragnarok

Yeah, I mean…that’s just kind of a “Welcome to the channel” statement all over, really.

Todd

Alex holy moly calm down! You've had 12 episodes this season that you've LOVED, you just had two episodes that made you guys cry....but because you didn't cry or get surprised with like four episodes you're worried about the rest of the show? Do you remember how much you guys were gushing overing the first 14 (minus 2) episodes? And the show hasn't even "grown it's beard" yet. Seriously I don't know ANYONE who thinks the first three seasons are the best of the show they're the worst of the show. S4-S6 are PEAK trek. The best episodes of the show, some of the best of all trek, haven't even happened yet! And while Ira might be the official showrunner now I've always felt s4 on was really Ron Moore's show. You can FEEL his addition to the show starting with s4. Seriously you gotta reflect on what you've already had so far this season and how much you already loved and not be so pessimistic because the last couple aren't the EXACT style of episode you want. TNG didn't give you the exact kind of episode you love every episode why would this show? Maybe take a step back and stop embracing your eeyore mentality of everything sucks and will continue to get worse and have a bit of optimism for what is to come. You'll enjoy the journey and be able to live in the moment so much more. And maybe TRY to enjoy things for what they are and not what you WANT them to be. Not every episode can make you cry or surprise you with some huge reveal at the end that you don't see coming. Trust me as someone who also LOVES the Defector and Lessons and all those kinds of episodes...this show hasn't even started to be the show that everyone raves about.

Steven McDowell

Yeah, I get. I wish people would tamper down with the expectations. Just let them watch the show and form their own opinions.

Scarpad’s Domain

I think the problem is when we see them laud superlatives and S scored to Voyager, which none of the eps they've watched so far come anywhere near the level of these last two episodes its easy to see that their disengaged. They say how DS9 is great for having the abiity to just showcase 2 great characters and then spend time lauding over that Quark and Nog are nowwhere to be found.

Scarpad’s Domain

what i think would make these reactions even better. Blur the episode title credits. go into the episode knowing nothhing about who did what and revel that in the review. It would put out any preconcieved notions and judge the episode on its merits or lack thereof.

Nolan

Writer credits are more about who gets paid for what rather than an aknowledgement of who did what.

paultardspambot .

One point on the Dax thing- She said it after the Jem'hadar had destroyed the colony and ships in the Gamma Quadrant. In that context, "You can tell us what to do" is the exact position you need to take. If they think you're helpless you're in trouble. You can roll back from "you can't tell us what to do" but this wasn't an opening of a negation, it was the deliveryn of a news of an attack so there's also calculations when dealing with an unknown threat... so sure, it's interesting to think about and you can look at things a lot of differenr ways in terms of whats justified and what was a response and so on.

paultardspambot .

I think the other perspective is important to remember. The federation will not interfere with an alien society even if say, they have slaves. However, the Dominion is one group of alines who have enslaved thousands of worlds who are are not burtal like the Cardassians, personal and ugly, but ruthlessly efficient. They dont occupy you, they eliminate your lifeform. The Federation can not, by its nature, recognize the legitimacy of such a group. So there is a sense of dealing with an instrinsically "evil" organization. This DOES match with the overwhelming number of viewers basica liberal values. Thats its not ok to invade worlds and ensalve them and exterminate them if they rebell. So we're seeing that clearly while also seeing Alex and Josh's semiseriois point "why don't you just destory the wormhole?" My interpreattion was always that it was because of the prohets, which made it all the more distrubing when the simulation shoiwed they would destory the wormhole. DS9 as a slot of subtle details like that.. So that practial action makes a lot of sense from a self survival standpoint, but the existence of the prophets makes it a huge sacrifice in the claim to value non-humanoif life equally.

Target Audience

We do judge it on its merits. Thinking we don’t because of credits is a cope, and isn’t engaging with anything we say in the discussion

Shanelle

But you yourself told Alex you felt he was predisposed to disliking an episode if he saw Ira’s name on it. That’s what I heard in this discussion, anyway.

Shanelle

And Alex stated that knowing Ira is showrunner makes him nervous and he has to try to push those feelings aside.

Scarpad’s Domain

Exactly Ron D Moore elicits a cheer and Ira’s a jeer and before the ep has even started you’ve set an expectation or tuned out and it’s clearly visible to see. Also you’ve talked about having surprised cameos ruined by the credits. Well there are reasons why someone has to be credited, but blurring those from view in addition to the technical credits but none of this into motion, you can judge it from what’s on the screen solely. You can say that’s what happening now but it’s clearly not.

shanetown

It was heavily promoted back in the day, so we all knew well ahead of time.

KingPin124

Ya, there’s too many TV show Cast Photo promo stuff that floats around.

Target Audience

A credit ruining a cameo in the episode is different than the accusation that we’ve already decided if we like it based on the writer/director, which isn’t true. Under that example we would’ve both said this was an S since it’s a sole Ronald Moore writing credit. We didn’t. We would’ve liked Prophet Motive since it was directed by Rene. We didn’t. We would’ve disliked Heart of Stone since it was written by Ira and RHW. We didn’t. I could go on, these are just examples from the last few weeks. For some reason, instead of using the reasons we say as to why we do or don’t like something, people decide to just make up their own reasons. Odd phenomenon.

KingPin124

I tried to stop all the hype, man! That being said, Alex always finds excuses to be negative, so if it was one thing it would be some other excuse.

KingPin124

Also, aren’t their shields essentially down when cloaked, lol.

jon bolton

I've thought that before about both later seasons of this and another show they haven't got to yet.

Nolan

A note about how cloaking works in Trek: in order to be effective, a ship under cloak must reduse every sort of energy output it has so as to not leave a trace for other ships to find. It also is a HUGE draw of power itself. So that means NO shields. Given how vilolent the interior of the wormhole looks, shields are likely required to traverse it. A ship may even need to send out some form of energy to trigger the wormhole to open, which likely requires a ship to decloak, unless there's some upgrade to the tech, I think this is just a limitation of the technology. That a ship under cloak operates with no shields is also why the Defiant got it's ass kicked in that first battle: The Dominion saw through the cloak and fired upon the ship with its shields down.

sword bard

Where's Morn in the rankings so far? I feel like we see him leaving the bar with ladies semi-regularly.

Paul

There's a certain time dependency involved. The first 10 episodes of the season were further away in the recesses of their brains; they don't feel it much because of that. There's also the general problem of human psychology, negative experiences hit us harder than positive ones.

Paul

Which is odd, people who actually write the episode should be paid, should be as simple as that, sadly.

Paul

That might be a fair summary. I don't think Josh and Alex are very optimistic about the future. Could be wrong but that's my gut instinct. I do think Star Trek as a whole holistic level becomes even better, especially DS9, if you come at it with the belief that humanity is not fundamentally evil or corrupt, and can grow, learn and become amazing in time. Even in real life.

sword bard

This is pretty much what I came here to say, and you put it perfectly. There are so many episodes coming that I am just going out of my mind waiting for, because they were freaking MADE for these guys.

Prof Moff

Currently we do not have Morn as scoring. There was two times that it looked good but a Cblock by Quark broke the situation. We are happy to review an episode if you can think of one (or more) where he did leave the bar with anyone other than Quark and we will review it. We did do the short version of most of S 1 - 3 to catch up and would love to give good ole' Morn a score. We really thought we could get a Jadzia-Morn hook up after how she talked about him in an ep but it just didn't give enough to make the assumption.

Nolan

Well, the fact the episode production stages can come from a bunch of different people muddies things. One writer comes up with the initial idea, the room workshops it to be more fleshed out. Another writer writes the outline. The room and producers/showrunners give notes on it, the room breaks it down into acts and scenes. That same writer or another writes the dialogue. Then depending on review, it may go through another writer who does another draft and it might be completely different. The showrunner likely takes a pass to ensure nothing egregious or contradictory to the rest of the show occurs. So, when the staff writers have a salary, who gets the credit and residuals for "writing" the episode?

Loot Narsbaar

Famously a plot point in Star Trek Generations

Mark Chrisco

Alex is going to owe Ira Behr an apology. "Nuff said."

Nolan

Hey. Alex. You aren't a curse, man. You just got some rotten luck. Don't let your negative life experiences drag you into a self-fufilling prophecy where you expect the negative to happen, and subconciously cause it to happen. You are just a human being, flawed as the rest of us, as capable as any man, and that's okay. Try to seek out whatever paltry silver lining in any negative situation that may occur, just to give some balance. You might not have power for 6 days, but you get to watch friggin TV for a living man. How cool is that? You seem to have your health and an ability to stay fit. You have a sense of humour and are humble enough to laugh at yourself. Not everyone gets to say all that. You are doing okay. Even when life smacks you upside the head, or not everyone agrees. When I have hardships, I just tell myself that the best things in life rarely come easily, and require perserverance, and overcoming some obstacle. That helps me push through shit. So yeah, just thought you oughta know that.

MartyMc

There is something good from the Gamma quadrant- tulaberries.

ImageMaker

I might not agree with T.A. on these reactions but I do feel like The hardcore DS9 fans are getting a little bit of Hardcore Voyager fans experience. For years we can't understand how people don't like Voyager and it gets trashed by other Trek fans. DS9 isn't even really being hated on just not being Loved as much as expected. Like Chakotay "Misery loves company" 😉. BTW I love DS9 as well.

Badmiral Burgess

I want to name the 2 future episodes of DS9 that I love and Alex, you should love too! I won’t spoil it. When they come I will remind you of this post and I want to know your thoughts. But trust there will be some amazing thought provoking stores coming!

HeatheЯ

We don't think Alex will change his mind with Ira running the show, we think Alex will be triggered more than ever now.

Lovok

The guys just don't seem very into big picture world building, which is one of DS9's biggest strengths. Not a lot of shows are good at this, so it's a bummer the guys don't appreciate it all that much. The great characters on DS9 will always keep them into the show, but I'm beginning to doubt they will fully appreciate and enjoy how carefully crafted DS9's long-term storytelling is. It is WAY better than Voyager in this regard. Different tastes and all...

HeatheЯ

Tulaberries are in the Gamma quadrant. Voyager is in the Delta quadrant.

Miranda

I think that person is also on the cover of the season DVDs?

Miranda

Collapsing the entrance to the wormhole does not destroy the Prophets

Malamute

O boy. 'We dont like serial shows or big picture'. This is going to be a long several seasons.

Aaron Wells

Delta quadrant gets the Leola root. As if Delta quadrant wasn't already screwed enough.

HeatheЯ

So ummm, this follow-up discussion after The Die Is Cast was not on my bingo card.

Zerocooleo

I remember weeks in the 90's when I worked during the day and there was not much entertainment until the weekend, but there was some star trek playing at night. We were just happy to be watching it to kill the silence in the room. Take off the S colored glasses, and try and remember that comparison is the thief of joy, oh and don't stop what you are doing 'cause you boys are killing it!

Numinous2019

I guess we need to remember that T.A. is a reaction channel, not so much a review channel. The guys don't objectively assess episodes, but instead explain their own personal responses. I tend to loose sight of that simple distinction at times.

Numinous2019

There can be issues with show runners over time, even if they at first pull a show together successfully. Losing objectivity on what are good ideas to pursue, or just getting stale over time. Piller never fit DS9 i.m.o., despite his success rate on TNG. Most of TV Trek has a clear pattern of changing show runners resulting in the shows turning things around pretty quickly.

Numinous2019

The Founders' basic perspective is that other life forms ('Solids') are threats to them by their very existence. If not currently a direct threat than potentially at some future point. This mindset means the Founders are expansionist and aggressive. Their violent subjugation of other species and civilisations also produces pre-emptive or reactive aggression in return. The show has already set out that the Dominion will be coming....

CarnifexRex

I never paid attention to wrestling, but now that you mention it, them being on the same channel does probably explain THAT episode

Iggy Stoneman

What I love so much about rewatching this is the new layer to every single line Lovok says. Him being concerned about Garak's presence. Who is this random guy, is he going to have this mission called off somehow? Who knows. Lovok explaining that they can only go at warp 6 or else they could be detected. Is this true, or is he stalling for more time so the founders can evacuate, or maybe give more time for Jem'Hadar ships to arrive in the nebula? Him being shocked and concerned at the discovery of the anti-changeling torture device. Of course that would concern him! Him vouching for Odo not to be killed, and then confronting Garak to ask him why HE tried to protect odo! Gosh, it's so good.

Jon Miller

I'm quite aligned with the guys on this one. It's good but never understand why people rave about it so much. Like so much of DS9, the fans hype it up to being amazing but actually it's kinda mid compared to the highs of TNG.

Kt B

They gave this an A. I think that’s totally fair, and exactly the grade I would have given it.

Kt B

Thanks for that explanation!

Chris M

I saw this when first released and have seen it probably 30 times since or more. Its hard to evaluate a single episode without knowing the full context. I think an A is fair as a stand alone, but for me its an S with context. DS9 is journey that might be better than the sum of its parts.

LonghillAndy

Just watching along now but during the long ass intro I wanted to write this comment out…… So you’ve just (from my point of view watching) mentioned why not go through the wormhole cloaked? Then saying maybe they can’t. Interestingly everytime the defiant has gone through the wormhole up to this point it’s gone through then cloaked on the other side so interestingly a nice little bit of continuity flow there. An actual reason why? I dunno 🤷🏻‍♂️ Anyway the episode is about to start after the intro now so I’m gonna carry on watching 👀

MartyMc

Corrected

Kt B

I had to read your comment twice in two different tones of voice to get that you were saying. It came across as a bit against at first, but I see you’re trying to be comforting. I think the issue is that Alex is in an uncharted place in his life right now, and his anxiety is dialed up. I have a lot of compassion for him because I also was stuck in that Eeyore mentally that caused me to brace for the worst, think of myself as cursed, and always be suspicious of the good. I don’t think this is explicitly about the show - I think this is life bleeding through and being projected onto the show. I think that the best thing that die-hard fans can do is A) Stop setting expectations so high B) Stop being upset when episodes don’t hit the same C) Be invested in the reaction journey for reasons other than wanting to watch people fall in love with the show If we as fans let them have some breathing room, I think they’ll feel less pressure about the whole thing and relax into genuine enjoyment. Years ago a grade of B for Banger was something that made them smile. Now it’s “we thought it was pretty good when everyone loved it, so now we’re in hot water.” If Alex can smile from ear to ear again over a banger, I think he’ll be less cautious and more receptive to those harder-hitting moments that are to come.

Kt B

I’ve been torn by this before in my own life, but I had more options than Garak. It is something that hits different in middle age.

Kt B

Thank you for this! It all ties cleverly into the opening discussion of the play, and I wouldn’t have seen that if you hadn’t shared it.

Echo Moon

Seriously, y'all really need to watch Krull (1983) if you haven't already seen it. The actor who plays Eddington is the main character in the film and it's such a guilty pleasure film and is one of my personal faves. :)

Some Guy

Eating the isolinear rod was a metaphor

Aaron Wells

Alex, don't sweat it. There's lots of stuff in there for you, too.

Dr. Paul Stubbs

I love that Sisko has chief at the Defiant's transporter controls when lives are on the line.

Cranky Grandma

I’ve watched this one a number of times. And I never got the parallel between Garak and Odo here. Even the changeling offering Odo to stay just as Tain offered Garak. I get why Odo didn’t rat out Garak. He understands wanting to return home even if your people are bad guys. I feel so thick 😊. As far as the overarching story- writers room. But the screenplay writer takes the ideas and makes it work. Ron is amazing. I think A is a very fair grade for this one. EDIT. Holy cow! Paul Dooley! Fantastic!

Cranky Grandma

And because he realized Garak protected Odo, Garak got to live.

J-Ro

I'll admit I'm big fan of the Star Trek space battles, science, technology, and starships... However, I'm an even bigger fan of the storytelling, and especially the characters and their dynamics between each other. These two episodes do so much great work with Odo and Garak, and, ultimately, that's what I remember down the road.

clone1138

If there’s a Venn Diagram of pro wrestling fans and Star Trek fans, my favorite people exist in the middle of that.

clone1138

We are still missing two key pieces to the series….one we all know is coming but don’t dare spoil. The second is The Sisko achieving his final form. And 3 of the best reoccurring characters haven’t even been introduced yet.

clone1138

Brilliant. Never thought of it that way but it works!

Josh Mariota

There's coffee in that quadrant.

Mark Chrisco

Another note defending Ira Steven Behr. He produced the rather excellent television series based on the movie, FAME (1982-87). A series much admired by both critics and young people of the day (I should know.).

Morgan Garrett

Alex, you're going to hate every single episode from here on out. Now you can be pleasantly suprised with each episode if that's not true :)

Derek Orr

They are more into classic starship trek adventures and not as much into big ship battles and geopolitics

Jill Barker

Oh dear. I hope for all our sakes Alex gives DS9 a fair hearing. This may be their channel but your viewers do matter.

lowkee120

Jesus...I spent way too much time listening to commentary about Alex being a negative nelly, skipping the rest of that.

Naglfarius

Soo... We get nice Character development for 2 Characters AND a good Story. And you are afraid that it will be like this? lol.

Summer

The gimmick of Alex being a discontent fretter…..time to grow from that

ShazD

Odo was just proving the guy with the perfumes with an assassin. Was it that complicated lmao.

ShazD

I don't get them at all.

uberelder

when did the Founders mention this? i don't remember seeing it explained like this in this or previous episodes?

Numinous2019

One of the last things the female changeling says to Odo in The Search: Part 2 is that the Alpha Quadrant, wracked with chaos, could use some order. Odo replies that imposing their kind of order on the Alpha Quadrant will be more difficult than they think. The show then goes on to emphasise that Starfleet, the Romulan Empire and the Cardassians all anticipate that the Dominion will sooner or later pose a direct threat to them. The changelings' past, related by the female changling, demonstrates that they are not willing to suffer ANY more from 'Solids'.

Liquid82

I just watched the reaction, and I have to say, for me personally, this episode is easily SSS-level. It has the tension, the character moments, that certain something. It benefits from the series’ excellent world-building and character development, and on top of that, it offers a spectacular space battle and an epic, terrifying enemy—all woven into a meticulously crafted overarching narrative. But tastes and preferences vary, and I fully respect that. The sad thing is, since they found this episode just pretty neat, they’ll likely find Season 4 and beyond rather boring and won’t appreciate them—you can be pretty sure of that, unfortunately. That’s why I’m not hyped anymore for Season 4 and beyond; quite the opposite. They probably won’t appreciate it because it contains so much sci-fi stuff. Maybe they were just having a bad day—everyone has those—but if they react the same way to S4 E1+E2, without any euphoria or enthusiasm, then I won’t watch their DS9 episodes anymore, just the X-Files reactions and Voyager later on, when it gets interesting.

Skye Maidstone

Man, Alex makes fantastic episodes like this almost unwatchable. At least the X-Files reactions are enjoyable.