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UNCUT - Faces (VOY S1E14) | Star Trek Journey 363 (Patreon)

Published:
2026-04-02 12:00:19
Edited:
2026-11-01 04:51:55
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Laura Thornley

4 minutes ago? I woke up just in time.

Summer

So the plot of course is impossible, but the scene with Be’lanna and Tom is gold oh and we get Neelix feeding Tuvok

THE Fans

I remember when Spock died and resurrected on Genesis... it bothered me alot ... but eventually I realized ... His body. His memories. It's still Spock. The Chief time jump one never bothered me because it's the exact same Chief, but from a different time. He's the same Chief on TNG. The alternate timeline was only a few hours. I'm imagining a few episodes that might really break your brains. But isn't that what makes this show great?

Summer

Kolbe’s direction is shining in Voyager. I do think Alex has a point that great stuff has been made.

Mark Magana

When this came out I had a friend that was mixed race. He was always embarrassed about one half and wished he could just be 100% of the other. He wasn't a Star Trek fan but watched this episode with me when it was new. This episode hit him on many levels and made him reconsider some things. It also made him a Star Trek fan. That makes this a pretty powerful episode in my opinion.

Worf and Riker Ride Again

RIP Durst, but feel comfort in the fact that your face and a few organs will live on... for a few weeks at least until the Phage rots it all away. I don't think it's possible to beat Suzie Plakson, she put all her ability points into Charisma.

Patric Flück

What viewers sometimes misunderstand here is that Klingons like Worf or Kern, really Klingons in general, temper their nature through experience and discipline. Hence why they don't act out full cliché all the time. Belana's Klingon half was used to being held in check by her own Human side alone. When they were split, the Klingon half suddenly acted independently without temperance. Hence her acting out. On the other hand, her Human half wasn't weak because "Humans are weak", but because she always relied on the Klingon aspects of her psyche to draw strengt from and without that she just didn't know how to handle herself.

Laura Thornley

Its also why Worf mentioned Klingon children being particularly difficult to handle - they don't have the experience and discipline yet to temper their rage.

Prof Moff

ANNOUNCEMENT**** The sex scoreboard regrets to inform all that it is suspending operations for 48 hours. This is do to Alex's Pus Penis (or Penis Pus) comment. We need 2 days to recover.

Back Flip Bet

My first watch as a kid I was so mad they kept going on away missions and getting lost and kidnapped.

Goddess of Empathy

Did you make your intro shorter to mirror the short hook? Normally I start the video and then listen to your intro while I grab a drink or a snack and load up the episode. I was so unprepared for your 30 second intro 🤣

Matchstick Jose

Ira somehow catching strays for K'Ehleyr’s death even though he left the TNG writing staff after season 3 and his name is nowhere on Reunion’s writing credits. (Ira’s like: “What the fuck did I do?!?”) 😅

THE LORE!!!

Brian Markinson, the guy who played Durst, is ALL OVER 90s TV. I personally don't care for his acting style, but the guy definitely got a lot of roles. You actually saw him before in the one with Worf's adopted brother. He played the dude who offed himself after going back to get the "Chronicle."

Darren

Ron Moore and Brannon Braga chuckling from the sidelines

Target Audience

I said in the video I didn’t remember and would have to go look. My apologies to Ira. L from Brannon Braga, Ron Moore, Thomas & Jo Perry (who?), and most importantly Michael Piller who has admitted it was his idea and choice to kill her.

Matchstick Jose

I agree that it was a bad decision to kill K'Ehleyr. Thought experiment: If K'Ehleyr hadn’t been killed off, is she potentially spun off as a regular on DS9 or Voyager? Damn. Now I’m sad. 😔

Altariel

Thinking about it, the Vidiians don't make a lot of sense: somehow they can clone a whole B'Elanna, but cannot clone organs? I find that a bit hard to believe. The episode shouldn't have happened like this, especially what happens to Durst, because the Vidiians should be able to clone parts of him as they did with B'Elanna, and use those parts instead of murdering Durst.

Ryan

"Mulder, this tunnel has shifted west by 75 degrees." "Have you ever heard of the tunnel alien, Scully?" I think this episode's script itself is pretty tropey stuff done in a tropey way. "Guys, look, her Klingon half helps her human half stand up! Get it??" But Roxann Dawson kicks ass with this. She makes the episode so much better on the screen than on paper. She really does seem like two distinct people. Given that she was still figuring out who her normal character was supposed to be, her work here is amazing. Also the Hannibal Lecter face-transplant stuff is wild gore-horror for 1990s Star Trek. Funny how the coziest Trek spinoff is giving us the freakiest aliens. RIP Durst.

Zenlike Creature

I very much enjoy this episode and the examination of Torres' Klingon and Human heritage. Really well done with the splitting of her genetics. Good stuff.

Keith S

Interesting, Roxan Dawson was not the only one doing a duo roll. Solon and Durst had to be being played by the same actor.

Derek Locke

Durst was a glorified red shirt! RIP!

Derek Locke

Neither one of you are wearing Trek shirts! Shame!!!

Erik L Jerks

I might never look at my penis again.

Erik L Jerks

It is interesting that Klingon and human "fight or flight" response are different on a hormonal level. Klingon's having virtually no "flight" stress response makes a lot of sense in how their culture is formed.

David Felgate

This may be the first time in a Star Trek show where we see a mixed species character divided by species into two individuals, but in 1976 a Star Trek anthology was published with the title "Star Trek: The New Voyages" which contained a short story named "Ni Var" in which Spock was split by an alien scientist into his logical Vulcan and emotional human equivalents. By the end of the story, before the two Spocks were reintegrated, Kirk discovered to his surprise that both the human Spock and the Vulcan Spock were his friend. That same paperback book had a fun short story named "Visit to a Weird Planet Revisited", which was clearly inspired by "Mirror, Mirror", where cast members of the TOS found themselves beamed onto the real Enterprise where they had to pretend to be their counterparts to get through a crisis before being discovered and beamed back to the Star Trek set in Hollywood. (Note: I may be getting a few details of these short stories wrong - it's been close to half a century since I read them.)

reactive1

Brian Markinson is a regular on “Continuum”, a sci-fi series that i really like. You should check it out.

Martin Wilson

Another XFiles connection is the Talaxian prisoner is played by Rob Labelle who was the main guy in Ghost in the Machine.

Outis

I like this episode exploring B'Elanna's relationship with herself. The body horror elements are genuinely disturbing and mirror somewhaat B'Elanna's "horror" (both her Klingon and Human selve's 'horror') at facing what she often disdains about herself .

reactive1

Don’t know if it’s been mentioned before, but the “patakh” term that Klingon Torres was calling Human Torres basically translates as “a piece of 💩 “.

reactive1

This episode is better than i remember. Definitely a banger.

Elizabeth N

I love this one, but I must've really not paid attention in all my rewatches of Voyager over the years because I didn't realise Durst had been a recurring character! Oops. Not only do you have people rewatching these and finding things to enjoy about episodes they previously forgot about, you've also got big Voyager fans discovering new things too!

William Roberts

“They’re the ones with the guns, remember” Durst was just repeating what Tom said to him when they were fist marched into the jail. Durst tried to fight back and Tom stopped him and said that they were the “ones with the guns”

River Acheron

I could care less about Torres' personality struggles. It rings hollow, and isn't very interesting. However this is an A for me. The HORROR VISUALS! This is the most disturbing (in a good way) episode of Star Trek we have seen up to this point. While Conspiracy (TNG) may have been more graphic, this was Silence of the Lambs-level of disturbing and dark. Wrong series, as such darkness would fit better in DS9, but the juxtaposition of the disturbing horror in THIS show only makes it more horrific. So an A for me.

Jack Mingle

Crazy episode, OG Torres is gone, and the new Torres is just the Human Half re-integrated with her Klingon DNA, but she is still a totally new Being and a new Torres

Philbot

It’s interesting to think that there might’ve been two Belannas It would’ve been like a Riker situation. I guess the Klingon could’ve lived and just donated DNA to restore human Belanna? I feel like her Klingon performance wasn’t very good at least at first? She spoke very slow like a stereotypical caveman accent.

Ryan

At least she’s not from five hours in the future, though!

Philbot

It’s a little weird they made no attempt to rescue the other prisoners!? They could have at least mentioned trying offscreen. This may be Belanna and Paris’ first, only scene together? I know he helped her try to rescue Garry from Beowulf, but they didn’t chat much.. good chemistry! Durst face would probably make a good recurring villain? A villain with a characters face, and the same actor back in a different role.. They did that on Angel! A regular died and continued playing a “possessed” character.

Philbot

I recognized him like 2 episodes ago? I don’t know if I knew he was recurring 30 years ago?

Philbot

Riker didn’t get along with himself! Much less his Irish half? 🧍🏻‍♂️

Philbot

I don’t get all the Kheylar love!? I think Suzie plakson was wooden and terrible. She made a good Vulcan! Rip Selar! never onscreen again? She Runs a wooden to melodramatic gamut when she’s like “grr my anger!” Just the delivery of her name. 😖 I’m Kay lar like slow cave man Belanna.

Loot Narsbaar

I think the show just wants you to think of it as smashing the reset button

Philbot

How do universal translators never translate swears or certain words spoken in alien languages. Klingon cough button! I can see specific words like pon far having no exact translation.. in heat? 😂

Philbot

Nivar? Eh

Philbot

I wonder if they shot all his human scenes first? It would be easier to schedule. I’d have stolen Tom’s face he’s hotter! 😻 Maybe the vidians were not that handsome a species.

Philbot

I’d probably be hotter without my Irish half! 👨🏻‍🦰My dad can tan.. he’s got swarthy Hungarian blood. 🧛🏻‍♂️

Actuarial Lurker

If you are the ONLY ship in a quadrant would you KEEP having away missions that involve half the Bridge Crew/Senior Staff? In TOS it was bad enough when three of Kirk, Spock, McCoy, Scotty would be on a planet at the same time- but they were near home...

Back Flip Bet

I would keep doing the trips to help the crew get home faster but those ridiculous science away missions mr lose shuttle craft goes on....

Worf and Riker Ride Again

“The last time I tried to take a pee it was like pulling apart a ham and cheese toastie” - Durst Face

tyranusfan

They could have spared a moment for a Durst funeral... When the two B'elannas were staring deeply into each other's eyes, I muttered "they're gonna kiss." A micro-second later, Alex said "Make out!" :D

John A

I like this one, and I did like Torres in the episode. I did not have a problem with her Klingon speech, I saw that she was not comfortable with being just Klingon at first, so her speach pattern was not quite Klingon, until she gave in to being full Klingon and her speech pattern was better. I felt it was on purpose.

Loot Narsbaar

What we needed was vengeance for Neelix

Loot Narsbaar

I thought it meant "freak" as in hated weirdo

reactive1

Yeah, that too. It’s basically a Klingon insulting someone in the worst way.

TalynOne

Nah, Joe Carey deserves to eventually make it home with the rest of the Voyager crew.

JoeCensored

One of my favorites from this season. It's a really clever way to explore both sides of her character. RIP Durst. A- to B+

Tim Nikiforovs

Exactly. Like with Tom Riker, go back to a certain point in their memory, and both Chiefs shared the same "stream of consciousness". They just represent different branches off of that point in time.

Tim Nikiforovs

Might be a very resource intensive process that they can't really scale up enough for their needs

Tim Nikiforovs

I wonder if that story inspired Galaxy Quest?

Tim Nikiforovs

Maybe there's a database of known languages in the programming for the UT, and different races can request certain words to be heard in their original form and not watered down by translation. Also it gets around the fracking censors

Tim Nikiforovs

I would say this one is in my top 5 for the season. It has a few flaws, but I think the examination of Torres' character, a strong showing from Paris, and the shocking(by 1995 TV standards) horror elements all contribute to making this a solid A tier episode. I think Patric Flück offered the best explanation for the seemingly cliched "scared human" and "aggressive klingon" personalities of Torres' 2 halves. I would say biology plays a big role. Klingons aren't this aggressive warrior race simply because of culture. That is there, but also their hormonal mix is going to be completely different from humans. Another reason human Torres may be so cowardly is as the episode alludes to that she is quite physically weak from the process. Clearly having hybrid DNA means there wasn't a full human DNA pattern left after the split, meaning she wound up weaker than a normal human as her body couldn't produce enough proteins. Why the klingon half didn't seem affected is unknown. Maybe she was in a different way. Also, while Torres may not have embraced klingon culture, she would know of it from her mom. In the context of Sulan glazing klingons, I can still see her leaning on what she knows of klingon culture to basically tell him "you don't know shit". Beyond that, her impulsive "fists and phasers" approach to escaping is entirely consistent with regular Torres. Remember her reaction to waking up in the Ocampa hospital in Caretaker? Same thing basically. I actually wasn't as impressed with the fire scene from an acting standpoint as the scene where she's telling Tom about her childhood. Some of the dialogue was a little too on the nose, though I suppose that is more a writing issue. It was directed quite well though. IIRC a lot of the scenes where both are on screen, and klingon Torres isn't talking, it's actually Dawson's photo double in makeup. Still, Dawson does a great job throughout the episode. I do take issue with the ending like others. First they seemingly left the other prisoners to be carved up, and the fact that Chakotay in that last scene is having a hard time breaking out of his role as a corpse in the previous episode. It's like he's thinking "do I say something comforting? She's not a child, she doesn't want to be coddled. Reassuring then? Maybe.....no that's corny. It's getting awkward standing here staring. I should go.(walks out without saying a word)". They could have addressed both through a change in dialogue. When Torres says "she's saving my life again", Chakotay could have said something like "not just yours. Thanks to the 2 of you, we managed to save 28 people from being harvested" or something. We don't have to see it happen, just have a line of dialogue to let us know it happened. Maybe have a line about how once she's had a few days to reflect on what happened, she'll learn to appreciate and embrace her klingon half instead of always fighting it. Something! Instead we got awkward staring. Doesn't ruin the episode by any means, but it is the weakest part of it. As for the Vidiians, I do like how in their first appearance, they tried to make them sympathetic by showing they hate living like this and try to limit organ harvesting to the dead, and here they just lean into them being organ stealing bad guys. Like when they grab human Torres and start dragging her off almost certainly to organ processing, and gaslight her with the "shower and a hot meal" line before giving that villainous "yeeaaahhhh" when she's begging them to stop. These vidiians don't give a shit. They see a healthy person and they're like "dude, this one's got a premium liver. I call dibs!!". I like to think different people in Vidiian society have different views on what they have to do to survive. But yeah, Janeway should have beamed up the prisoners, and beamed a photon into the complex. Gotta send a message. I will say though, while I get Torres' klingon half was being driven by some pretty strong emotions, there was an opportunity here that was missed. Obviously she has little to bargain with while tied to a table, but if she could escape and take Sulan hostage, she could demand the vidiians release all the other prisoners, in exchange for her staying and willingly helping them cure the phage. The alternative would be that she kills Sulan and is herself killed by the other vidiians. A chance to cure the phage is worth far more than a few dozen sets of organs/workers. Moreover, the Vidiians are potentially harvesting millions of people all over that area of space. Curing the phage would be a massively beneficial change to the quadrant, for both the vidiians and their victims. Depending how long it took to come up with a cure, she could still return to Voyager after(I don't see them leaving her anyway, unless a bunch of vidiian ships showed up). That would be a way to save not only Paris, human Torres and Durst's life, but also the other prisoners and who knows how many future victims throughout the region. But I get it, it's too easy of a solution to something the Vidiians have struggles with for 2000 years.

River Acheron

I also have to say, I love how you made your own "Evil Janeway" without even seeing SFDebris. lol. Sometimes even getting the voice right. She just has that effect on people!

EnigmaticPenguin

“Not that Klingons can’t cry.” I love that the one time Josh get’s a deep cut Star Trek thing wrong, it’s from Star Trek VI lol

jon bolton

No Josh, Klingons really can't cry as Spock told Scotty in Star Trek 6, they don't have tear ducts. I'm sure other people will have mentioned the reason the Vidiian looked so much like Durst when he wore his face. I love this one, A.

Todd

Ayala! Ah, the shifting ranks of the crew. Tom is the senior officer but Durst clearly outranks him. I feel like actor Brian Markinson was great as Sulan. Appears Markinson did some work on Battlestar Galactica with Ronald D. Moore. Roxann was simply amazing here.

jon bolton

I agree with your rant Josh. Obviously especially in horror films you expect it to be fairly dark at times, but i still want to be able to see something other than total darkness, which is all i can see with a lot of recent things.

Aaron Wells

I've always thought Plakson was great. She was almost playfully Klingon, which fit perfectly in the self-deprecating way she seemed to view her identity. That whole character worked really well for me.

Aaron Wells

I'm late, I'm sure others have said so, but this is probably Roxanne Dawson's best performance in the whole series. She absolutely killed it in this dual role. Lovely seeing her in all her human glory without those eyebrows lol.

Avaria

I'm not sure that Klingons not having tear ducts was in the version they watched, since that was among the scenes cut from the theatrical version (and given how it went the first time, you know they're never going to watch the longer version). For the guys, Scotty opines that Azedbur is unfeeling, as she hadn't shed a single tear over her father, Chancellor Gorkon's death; Spock responds that it's hardly unusual as Klingons have no tear ducts.

Millenial_Manc

Alex had me in stitches. Dick made of pus! B’Lana eating the corpse of human B’Lana. Can’t even remember the others. Bit of a plot hole with this one - just beam down an Anthony Fauci hologram, giant box of face diaper masks, and some vinyl one way arrow signs to keep them 4ft apart. Phage solved.

Boggle

This really isn't the edgy burn that you think it is, dude.

jon bolton

Actually you might be right, i did wonder about that after typing it.

River Acheron

I do like how she still cared about the safety of her crew memebers.

Collin Freeman

Farewell, Mr. Durst. We hardly knew ye.

Collin Freeman

I liked Alex bringing up The Enemy Within because I was definitely noticing similarities between the 2 Kirks and the 2 B'lannas in how the 2 parts of the personality were necessary so they would live and were needed to complete the whole person.

Malamute

Just thought i would say i am one of those people that isnt a huge fan of Voyager. But that doesnt mean there arent a bunch of good episodes. So am rewatching with ya all. My opinions arent changing, but i enjoy alot of Voyager episodes. I have a real hard time enjoying many of the characters. I think that is what hurts it alot for me. Dont like Tom Paris. Dont care for Harry Kim. Tuvok is just ok. Neelix... meh. Chakotay is just so flat and... not a good actor. So i would say the character issue is what puts Voyager further down my list. I think the doctor and Janeway are just Great though. But anyhow, dont worry, there are really good episodes. Even i enjoy them... ;-p

Trekkie74205

I thought it was pretty clever to introduce Durst played by Brian Markinson in a previous episode. Then Brian Markinson played the Vidiian in the first half of this episode. So once he had killed Durst, they just had to lessen the makeup, to let his real face come through. So Roxann Dawson was not the only one playing two characters in the episode.

Zerocooleo

Viridians, 'vidians, Nvidians, and then back to the Evidians, then maybe Euvidians? Lets try the Vidiians pronounced vih-DEE-unz. Also Neelix is a Talaxian pronouned tə-LAK-see-ən

Kirkinson

That line isn't in the theatrical cut of Star Trek VI (which is what they watched) so it's in kind of a canonical grey area.

KingPin124

In case anyone is keeping track: Vidiian, but also acceptable: Viridian, E’vidian, Yedirians, Vidirians, Virginians, West Virginians. Talaxian, but also acceptable: Tamarian, Tarkarian, Tarclaxian, Torontonian.

KingPin124

I went to the kitchen to get my food together, thinking they’d be talking for at least 5 minutes and they started in 37 seconds!! 🤣

KingPin124

Professor Moriarty was another amazing character that came back seasons later for an excellent performance.

KingPin124

I shouldn’t have been eating my giant supper during this episode.

KingPin124

Man, “when” they watch Stagate, they’ll be pointing out a 90’s actor every episode or two, lol.

TrekinJenn

This is my favorite episode of the series so far. Finally, B’Elanna gets a real background episode

Kt B

The biology of this one where she’s able to survive at all with “purified” DNA that is basically from only one parent is completely unbelievable. I was able to enjoy it more on first watch because I could maintain that suspension of disbelief and enjoy the episode for what it was - an exploration of the duality of self and learning self-love and acceptance. On second watch, it was so hard to listen to the meaningless medical technobabble that it makes me grateful that I don’t have a physics degree to be constantly reminded how terrible the science is. The irony is that technobabble is off-putting to laymen because it’s just meaningless noise, and it’s off-putting to experts because the noise is trying to mean something laughably impossible. But yeah, the duality of Torres is well-explored here, and I like the message of self-acceptance. It seems like it could be particularly meaningful to people who feel caught between two different worlds, especially people who are bipolar, biracial, or had a really rough start in life and learned coping mechanisms that ended up being double-edged. I wish I had connected with it more, but my struggle with self-acceptance was just fundamentally different. I’m glad to see others’ perspectives. And Klingon B’Elanna kicks ass. The actress did a great job of acting like a full Klingon that was still recognizably B’Elanna.

Nolan

So, there's an interview with Micheal Dorn, and he talks about how one of the writers called him up, as they were struggling, and they asked him "What do you think it would take for Worf to kill Duras?" And he answered, "probably killing his old lady (meaning wife)." I think the writer's already had that idea of killing K'Ehleyr, but really didn't want to do it cause they loved her just as much too. But then Dorn clinched it by saying it too. So really, it's all Dorn's fault.

Ken R

I don't know what is more head scratching: that someone said Enemy Within and Shatner suck, or that four people agreed 100%.

EnigmaticPenguin

Good catch! Josh’s reputation is safe once again

AdmiralMurphy

To answer your question on my TOS opinion. I do like TOS but I put DS9 and TNG ahead of it. For TOS, I really only like Seasons 1-2. Season 3 is just too campy for me while not really telling interesting stories or character pieces like the other two seasons. I would agree that this episode feels very TOS (in a good way) and Voyager seems to pull off the TOS feeling better than shows like TNG or DS9. I do have a future episode in mind for Voyager where this kinda crazy concept absolutely does not work and I'll talk about it there.

River Acheron

I made a mistake I think. When I first got into Trek a few years ago, I watched TNG, DS9 and VOY before TOS lol. Soo...I will honestly say I don't like it that much. It seemed a big step downwards for ME. And I just...I don't think it aged too well. My problem wasn't so much Gene, but the studio at the time that threw in references to them believing in God and even Jesus in that one episode. "the son" or whatever that quote was. It just didn't fly with me. I feel like that was studio meddling because I don't think Gene was Christian or even religious. Like I said, TOS just didn't hit me the way it probably hit viewers in the 60's. Ofc there are episodes I like! I did think City on the Edge of Forever was overrated because I knew about the hype of that episode before I even watched Trek. It was fine. An A for sure. But I wouldn't call it an S. And TOS is still better than post season 3 Voyager. lol. Anything is. :P

EmptyDice

I'm sorry to tell you, but curing a genetic disease that affects every individual of a species across many planets and spaceships is far more complicated than preventing a relatively simple virus from becoming pandemic on a single planet. There is no hole in that part of the plot.

EmptyDice

I see your point, but I actually find the technobabble in this era of Star Trek largely acceptable. Compared with other sci‑fi from the same period, it often feels better researched and more convincing. The X‑Files, for example, sometimes leans into more egregious technobabble, but because it’s set in the present day we may be more forgiving. Star Trek usually avoids sliding into outright fantasy (no lightsabers or Force powers), which helps. It’s not as hard‑science as The Expanse or an Andy Weir story, and I understand why those with a taste for very realistic techno‑talk might struggle with it. Ultimately it’s a delicate balance, and I appreciate when shows make the effort rather than defaulting to lowest‑common‑denominator shortcuts. If we can accept transporter clones, this isn't much more of a stretch. The "doctor" was the chief surgeon of the Viddian Sodality and had developed a new process using their technology to beam organs out. He explained that he converted B'Elanna into energy, performed a software trick on her genes to separate her human and Klingon DNA, and rematerialized her as 100% genetically Klingon. He showed no concern for her human side, though he still had to materialize her, which is consistent with our understanding of transporter technology. Our Doctor explained that B'Elanna's human cells were not dividing correctly without her Klingon DNA, so she couldn't survive that way, and reintegrating her DNA would take weeks rather than the short time it took the Viddian doctor. The unrealistic part is that both B'Elannas should have been in excruciating pain throughout the episode, which would have prevented them from having conversations; personally, I can suspend disbelief on that for the sake of character development.

EmptyDice

For anyone wondering about the Viddians’ social structure: they call themselves a sodality — a small, close-knit fellowship formed for a single purpose. Unlike the Federation, Klingons, Romulans, or Dominion, the Viddians lack a unified government. Instead, they are a voluntary organization entirely devoted to curing their species’ disease. As a result, they likely have no formal legal system: the mission overrides other concerns, and they pursue cures by any means necessary, often without moral restraint. Think of them as a religious order—similar to the Knights Templar—except their sole aim is finding a cure rather than spreading a faith.

penoyer79

JOSH: that's the guy who wrote episode 13 of season 2 that we watched 4 years ago! also josh VIDDIAN: (to Torres) Because I infected you (with the Phage). 2 minutes later.... JOSH: So the infected her????? it's amazing how much they love star trek episodes even while zoning out for half the dialogue and not having any idea what is going on with the main plot.. despite 1990s dialogue having to spell it all out

Paul

There is an aspect to modern shows and movies where they appear to crush the blacks down to almost 0. It can make it difficult to see in certain scenes. I don't know why they do this, even apparent in the Harry Potter Remake trailer. That said, there are modern gems Alex, don't lose hope! Creepiest part of this episode has to be Durst's face graphed onto that Viddian, what the fuck lol. Also, surprised by your guest star rankings. K'Ehleyr was phenomenal, no doubt, but better than Q? No way. The whacky goofy Q perhaps not, but when he's serious, like in Tapestry, damn he's perfect imo.

Paul

Right, Daniel Davis plays him to perfection.

BN13

They seemed pretty checked out and dismissive from the beginning for some reason until Durst died and finally caught their attention. Maybe Klingon B'Elanna at the beginning convinced them that this episode was going to suck until they realized later that it was an introspective B'Elanna character episode?

BN13

The Vidiians are interesting to think about. In another show, there was a concept introduced where people were given medicine that could make one person immortal, but in order to do that, they would need to kill one person for every person they wished to make immortal. It was later revealed that the person who invented this medicine, did so not to help people, but as revenge against the human race. They wanted to turn all humans into monsters killing each other and sacrificing all of their morals just to fight to extend their own life out of fear. The solution? The medicine was destroyed. But here, we see the Vidiians were presented with a similar moral quandry. Eventually, everyone on their planet had to make the choice: you can either die soon, or spend the rest of your life fighting to extend your own life little bits at a time, but every time you extend your own life, you have to kill another. The sympathy for this victimized species kind of goes away once you realize that long ago, this race should have decided that if that was the price of life, then the price was too high, and they should have all just let themselves die. If you think this lacks compassion, and is cold and heartless, think of this from your own perspective. If you were told today that you had some weird form of cancer or something that would kill you in 20 years unless you killed someone else for their organs, would you kill someone just so you could live longer? Or even in real cases where people are waiting on organs like a liver, lungs, or a heart for transplant. Would those people ever kill to get those organs? Yet the Vidiians at some point got so desperate as a culture, probably because this was happening to all of them, and it was so horrific, that as a society, they moved past that moral quandry. Somehow over hundreds of years, killing others to extend your own life became something that was societally normal for them. Now they don't even think about how horrific that is, and don't even have problems enslaving others, harvesting their organs, or experimenting on others against their will. Somehow they convinced themselves that this was all ok now because of the Phage, to the point that they don't even introspect on it anymore. This is peakly illustrated by the killing of Durst. The Vidiian doctor is so removed from this kind of basic moral thinking that he actually thinks that killing B'Elanna's own crew mate just to make himself look "more attractive," as if he was casually applying makeup, is something that B'Elanna would actually admire. Which brings me back to my belief in universal right and wrong. Just because a society normalizes something horrific, doesn't mean that that thing is no longer horrific, and right and wrong are relative. Something evil isn't suddenly right now just because someone else's culture says it's right. This is how a lot of cultural abuse gets excused. Now yes, it is not our place to come blazing in trying to change that culture overnight, or claim that we are superior to them or anything, because there are deeply rooted reasons for why they do what they do, and they as a people need to be respected as fellow life just trying to figure everything out. But we can still acknowledge that what that culture is doing is inherently wrong, hope that one day they realize this, and save those who wish to leave an abusive system. If you want a benchmark for universal right and wrong, you only have to look at one thing. All of our decisions basically follow one of two paths: self-service, or altruism. Are we elevating ourselves above others, at the expense of others, or without care for others, focusing solely on our own needs and goals? Or are we focusing on learning unconditional love and acceptance of others, where we strive to help and support others because we accept that we are not any better or more important than anyone else? Even the worst of us? Those are the true roots of "good" and "evil." Every day, ask yourself, are you acting from a place of blinded self-service where you don't care about what happens to others as long as you get what you want? If you are, then you are acting from a place of universal wrong. By this nature, things like slavery, exploitation, rape, and killing other people just so you can benefit, are inherently wrong no matter how normalized they may have become. Now can you argue that sometimes these things are understandable or even justified as an ends justify the means kind of thing? Absolutely yes! There are always shades of grey, and that's where things get most interesting. For instance, the ULTIMATE goal of the the Vidiians isn't self-serving, but altruistic. They just want to cure all of their people of the phage. But that still doesn't make what they are doing right. What they are doing in order to cure the phage is completely self-serving, and is therefore wrong. Likewise, the Bajoran freedom fighters had to kill a lot of people and do a lot of nasty stuff in order to survive and drive the Cardassians off of their planet. It's completely understandable why they chose to do what they did, but they all still have PTSD from it because they know that they had to do a lot of things that were "wrong" in order to accomplish that goal. And they WERE wrong, but they were necessary. Sometimes wrong is necessary. Even on a micro level, if you choose to buy a pizza with $20 that you could have given to a homeless person, that's technically wrong. If you choose to eat meat from an animal that suffered at the hands of a horrific meat industry all of its life just so you can have some tasty chicken, that's also wrong. But these things are understandable because not all of us can do the "right" thing all the time. Being poessionless, a saint, a martyr, or a vegan is hard, and not everyone can walk those paths. We all make "wrong" decisions on the daily and exist between the two paths. We also learn from both paths. But we can choose to become more aware of which path we choose more, and strive to move toward one path over the other. The Vidiians are a society that has normalized organ harvesting the same way that we have normalized eating meat, or chocolate produced from African child slave labor. They just don't think about it anymore because that's how they have to live. It's just part of life. And that's pretty terrifying. Both for them, and as a warning for what we may become if we allow ourselves to believe that right and wrong are just "societal constructs" instead of recognizing good and evil for what they are. If we allow ourselves to lose our sense of universal right and wrong, then the self-serving path of "evil" becomes normalized, just like it did for the Vidiians. And we can fan justify all sort of evil things that we do to each other.

Dr. Paul Stubbs

It's hilarious that the shortest cold open I remember from the two of you happened to be on the Star Trek episode with the shortest cold open I remember.

BN13

So question: if K'Ehleyr hadn't have died in Reunion, how would she have been used later on without just kind of being there? How would she further the story later? She was killed there for drama. They needed a reason for Worf to lose it to the point where he would kill Duras so they could further that story. I don't think Alexander would have had that effect on Worf. Also, the fact that her dying makes Work a single dad adds more to the drama of Worf's arc. I just wish they had done more with that and executed it better. Also in real life, it always seems like the best "characters" in our lives die young, while we have to live the rest of our lives stuck with the ones we didn't really care for. So in Worf's case, of course he'd lose K'Ehleyr but be stuck with Alexander. Life's never that easy.

BN13

Also, this episode does make me emotional for some reason. I'm not a child of two cultures or anything, so i don't have B'Elanna's duality trauma. But for some reason, that line at the end "I guess I'll just have to accept that I'll have to spend the rest of my life fighting with her" always makes me tear up. Maybe it's because i know she DOESN'T have to spend the rest of her life fighting with her herself, and I relate to her struggle of slowly realizing that she can offer herself self-compassion? Maybe it's because I know so many other people struggle with this too, and I want them to discover self-compassion? Anyway, I cry every time at that line.

Trekkie74205

i have also noticed how much story they miss, while getting caught up with guest stars. It is pretty standard by now. Star Trek re-used guest stars who did a good job. Especially guest stars who could act through prosthetics.

AdmiralMurphy

I really started with Enterprise cause that's what was coming out when I was growing up, though I had seen some TNG eps and the TOS movies that really got me into it. Voyager I would say was the first show I saw all the way through after that but I didn't watch it in order. I actually saw the last episode of Voyager as like my fifth episode of the show cause it was on this fan collection DVD my parents got me.

Jeff Cornell

Contenders against K'ehleyr for best recurring character (that we've met so far). Gul Dukat Garak Moriarty Best single-episode character I'd have to give to The Defector himself, Admiral Jarok.

penoyer79

they dont even pretend to have any interest in the central story of most episodes anymore. they just make flippant and snarky comments until the c-story happens and then they get all excited.

River Acheron

And my grandfather was trying to tell me things like, "you gotta understand...in the 60's we never saw anything like Star Trek. It was spectacular etc etc." And I can definitely give TOS credit for that. But I HAVE seen things 100 times more impressive in COMMERCIALS nowadays lol. So it's like, it's just not for me. It just didn't age well as far as I'm concerned. And I am also not the biggest Shatner fan for a few reasons. If the stories the other cast members have said were true. Especially Takei.

DEVHBE

in the new voyager game you have occasion to keep them both, so i have 2 B'Elanna's, human engineer and klingon security officer

penoyer79

it's really hard to go back and try and watch TOS after you've been introduced through TNG/DS9... i dont think ive seen a single trek fan who said they really liked TOS who didn't watch TOS first. Gene was an athiest. but you have to remember it was the 60s. the tv executives wanted spock character banned because they thought he looked like satan! not kidding. of course he ended up being the most popular character.... without him it wouldnt have survived the 1st season. not a 7of9 fan eh? lol seems to be a common holy war among voyager fans.

Strekonline.com

It's totally believable that stereotypes of Klingons, Romulans, etc. are baked into their species. Remember they are different species from each other, the same way that a tiger and lamb are different species to each other, instead of different races of the same species. Even within the same species, however, there can be common traits baked into the genome. Look at different dog breeds as an example. Vastly different temperaments between a rottweiler and a poodle. And when you mix breeds you get a combination of each. I do think they played a little too much into “human” B’Elanna being weak but it’s still believable. She became dependent on her Klingon side for strength, and without that she didn’t know how to find strength from her human side because she never had to tap into that human strength before.

Scarpad’s Domain

one of the better S1 episode , even thou it ws an extension of Enemy Within, the thomas riker episode and one voyager will revisit again

Evan Guthrie

"Not that Klingons can't cry" Have you heard of a little-known movie called Star Trek 6?

Evan Guthrie

I hate the "racism" complaints. STORIES NEED ARCHETYPES. Fictional aliens is a perfect way to do that. Get over it.

Nemo-the-Red

I got full klingon and half klingon because I had some DNA reintegrater from a previous mission. Next playthrough I want to keep a human Torres though

Utopia570

You can do that?!?