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UNCUT - Apocalypse Rising (DS9 S5E1) | Star Trek Journey 425 (Patreon)

Published:
2026-09-14 04:15:12
Edited:
2026-09-17 11:31:26
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Heespharm

Damn I guess I’m not sleeping tonight

Ryan

Fistful of Datas *was* a better fish-out-of-water episode, you're right. Flying into the sunset at the end? *Chef's kiss.* I was halfway through "Humbug" when this dropped, so I had to switch over. Priorities. Glad you enjoyed it!

Matchstick Jose

Josh bursting into laughter at the sight of Klingon O'Brien. Appropriate! 🤣

John Wayne

I love how even when Dukat shows up in an episode to help he can't resist doing unimaginably fucked up shit

Matchstick Jose

I agree with Josh that this was probably DS9’s weakest season premiere so far, which still makes it pretty solid. Ira had planned for this to be a two-parter, but the studio for some reason nixed that and told him to do it in one episode instead. Would probably have had more weight if they didn’t have to rush through it so fast.

TalynOne

This is by far my favorite season premiere so far. Yea, little irked Sisko didn't trigger the device quickly, but it's a minor point it's not something that would cause me to hate the entire thing like Peter Quill fucking up the Thanos fight in infinity war. Sorry, there's not enough money in the world to get me to even slightly care that they had a recap.

TalynOne

Casey Biggs and Roxanne Dawson were married from 1985-1987, so both were divorced before either's appearance in Star Trek. Also I don't see this episode as shelving the Dominion arc, it's clearly part of it. It even includes a freaking changeling. The Dominion is not just about the Federation, it's about the entire Alpha quadrant, they've already meddled with both Romulans and Cardassians when they manipulated and orchestrated the the Tal Shiar/Obsidian Order attack attempt.

Nolan (edited)

Comment edits

2026-09-16 08:00 Recaps and repetative dialogue: back they, every episode of Star Trek could be someone's first episode; there's no garauntee everyone would start it on time at 8 Central. Some people might only join in after the first or second commercial break. So they leave breadcrumbs for those viewers. It's not like today where you just pull the full episode up on streaming and everyone follows along. And networks being ratings focused because they get their money giving ad space to sell stuff to viewers, ensuring new viewers can follow along is important. It's not because they think a couple a 30 something year old reactors are too stupid to follow along.
2026-09-14 06:32 Recaps and repetitive dialogue: back then, every episode of Star Trek could be someone's first episode; there's no guarantee everyone would start it on time at 8 Central. Some people might only join in after the first or second commercial break or while channel surfing. So they leave breadcrumbs for those viewers. It's not like today where you just pull the full episode up on streaming and everyone follows along. And networks being ratings focused because they get their money giving ad space to sell stuff to viewers, ensuring new viewers can follow along is important. It's not because they think a couple a 30-something-year-old reactors are too stupid to follow along.

Recaps and repetitive dialogue: back then, every episode of Star Trek could be someone's first episode; there's no guarantee everyone would start it on time at 8 Central. Some people might only join in after the first or second commercial break or while channel surfing. So they leave breadcrumbs for those viewers. It's not like today where you just pull the full episode up on streaming and everyone follows along. And networks being ratings focused because they get their money giving ad space to sell stuff to viewers, ensuring new viewers can follow along is important. It's not because they think a couple a 30-something-year-old reactors are too stupid to follow along.

Laura Thornley

The only major criticism I have of this episode is that this is a prime example of wasting Jadzia. She was in on the plan with Sisko from the start. She knows how the devices work. She's an expert on Klingons. She should have been part of the mission instead of O'Brien. Can you imagine, Dax as a Klingon? My heart is a-fluttering at the thought! (And yeah, the whole allergy thing. Forgot about that. I'm sure they could have gotten around it if they tried - using a different material and limit the close-ups on her forehead (or give her a hat).)

Scribe31oz

Chief O'Brien wasn't present at the end because he went home to Keiko in full Klingon gear for a reunion. Incidently, Kira was also babysitting Molly at Dax's place that night. :D

Nolan (edited)

Comment edits

2026-09-16 08:00 I wonder if Changeling!Martok was so intent about recognizing the Chief's face was because of the four of them, O'Brien was the only one to be mimicked by a changeling. Probably learned about being him from the Link. Speaking pf Changeling shenanigans, it's been revealed that "useless" scene between Odo and Jeffery Combs in "To the Death" was supposed to have an insert of Weyoun touching Odo on the arm, and that THAT is how the Founders infected him. Finally, have you guys noticed Cirroc only tends to be at the starts, ends and just a little bit in the middle of every season? Almost like his appearances are scheduled around something else? Like say, whenever school is on break?
2026-09-14 07:49 I wonder if Changeling!Martok was so intent about recognizing the Chief's face was because of the four of them, O'Brien was the only one to be mimicked by a changeling. Probably learned about being him from the Link. Speaking of Changeling shenanigans, it's been revealed that "useless" scene between Odo and Jeffery Combs in "To the Death" was supposed to have an insert of Weyoun touching Odo on the arm, and that THAT is how the Founders infected him. Finally, have you guys noticed Cirroc only tends to be at the starts, ends and just a little bit in the middle of every season? Almost like his appearances are scheduled around something else? Like say, whenever school is on break?

I wonder if Changeling!Martok was so intent about recognizing the Chief's face was because of the four of them, O'Brien was the only one to be mimicked by a changeling. Probably learned about being him from the Link. Speaking of Changeling shenanigans, it's been revealed that "useless" scene between Odo and Jeffery Combs in "To the Death" was supposed to have an insert of Weyoun touching Odo on the arm, and that THAT is how the Founders infected him. Finally, have you guys noticed Cirroc only tends to be at the starts, ends and just a little bit in the middle of every season? Almost like his appearances are scheduled around something else? Like say, whenever school is on break?

Laura Thornley

Oh! That's one heck of a thought regarding Chief! I like that a lot.

Altariel

As far as I know, Ira never wanted the Klingon storyline – he wanted to develop the Dominion as the enemy, not the Klingon Empire. But it was studio mandate for ratings to get Worf on board, and do Klingons because people like Klingons, so that's why you get the Klingon conflict in S4. So if you're wondering why Ira isn't escalating the conflict in this episode for example by killing Gowron but rather de-escalates: it's not the conflict he had his heart set on.

Worf and Riker Ride Again

O'Brien is probably hugely infamous amongst other races - DS9 has endured so many plots to be destroyed or sabotaged, hostile alien races must have come to the conclusion that O'Brien's genius and relentless work ethic is DS9's secret weapon.

Worf and Riker Ride Again

I love this episode, lots of wholesome Klingon shenanigans. Plus they brought J.G. Hertzler back, he's awesome

Summer

You were worked

Ground Under Repair

Paramount+ needs to give us a Klingon "Game of Thrones style" show.

Battlewolf359

Coming home from work and treated to TWO reactions from my favorite reactors, it a nice treat.

James H

Another thing about recap versus no recap is probably that the writers can't always predict the runtime... an episode may run long and have to be cut down, or (as maybe happened here) it can run short and the recap fills up the time-- in which case the repetitive dialogue is still needed for padding.

Loot Narsbaar

I agree 100% on Shatner's reaction to David's death being the only bad part of his ST3 performance I 100% disagree it doesn't justify his arc in ST6 but what else is new

Sykonee

Worf as Klingon Boot Camp Drill Instructor is such a fun idea. Wouldn't surprise me if Dorn really does this for Klingon extras every time they have to shoot a scene with lots of 'em.

THE LORE!!!

The intention was not for the Founders to infect Odo remotely. The intention by the writers was that Weyoun , the Vorta, had infected him by making contact with him during their corridor scene in To the Death, but Levar Burton ignored it decided to do an extreme close-up so you can't tell.

Matchstick Jose

I assume the writers just thought it’s not that important a detail how they infected Odo, since the Founders are so good at doing things in secret. It is actually explicitly stated in the official To The Death script, if you can believe it: ‘Weyoun looks at Odo for a beat, then gives him a good-natured clap on the shoulder. (In case anyone's interested, when he touches Odo, Weyoun is purposely infecting Odo with the disease that almost kills him in "BROKEN LINK.")’ Definitely a DS9 fail that this isn’t how the scene was shot or at least edited, though.

Jonathon Tsagris

Correct, if Worf had killed Gowron, that would have made him Chancellor of the Klingon Empire (although I would think civil war would immediately follow).

Better Watch Trek

I think its fine to wrap this in one episode instead of having a longer arc with the question if Gowron is really a Fonder or not. Still, a few minutes less Dragonball placement game and a bit more Gowron talkin at the end would have been a better ending. With the few lines Gowron give, I'm left with the impression, that he didn't want an escalation with the Federation at all - Martok pushed for it, the other Houses are now bloodthirsty - and Gowron can't just end the conflict without the fear to be replaced by a 'strong leader' soon

Target Audience

I like it better as a mystery. Makes the founders cooler.

River Acheron

We are back!! And let me just say right off the bat that this is a top tier episode. Easily S- I think. I can't go full S because there's episodes that I love so much more. That's how good I personally believe this show gets. That takes nothing away from this and I have to think about it but (so FAR!) this may be the strongest starts to a season, bar none, with the possible exception of Way of the Warrior. It's close!

Ryan Roach

“Martok” knew exactly who all four of them were the second he saw them.

Cranky Grandma

Odo is such a teenager. Rene does such a good job of mixing just a bit of youngster into this clever, curmudgeonly character. Of was a child sent out by the founders and that is still there. Overall this wasn’t my favorite episode. Sloppy plans (sending people known to Gowron and Martok as your undercover people? 🙄), lots of exposition. It was “fine”. I’m with Alex.

A Plain and Simple Tailor

Great episode. Alex let a minor annoyance ruin his entire attitude about the episode yet again

Mina Haroun

I'm pretty sure Martok was a Changeling in way of the warrior. He convinced Gowron to attack the Cardassians because Klingons were at peace for too long and needed an enemy to fight. If you re-watch way of the warrior... Martok was REALLY PISSED when Gowron stood down and stopped the fight with DS9 and the federation. Martok also behaved ODD when Worf Stole his son's knife. He should've fought him for his son's honor. He did'nt care about Honor there either. Finally you can see it on ODO face when martok says "There will be no honorable combat ..." Also Martok killed a bunch of innocent Klingons to get the guys to Gowron. Martok could've easily killed Gowron at any time. He needed Sisko/worf to kill him to keep war with Federation Going. Finally , Martok kept ODO back because he did'nt want ODO to get killed... The changeling still care about ODO even though he got another one of them killed. *Not really a spoiler spoiler warning* You guys need to re-watch DS9 after you finish Season 7. On re-watch you pick up on allot of story threads that you missed the first time. It's why some of us LOVE some of these episodes that you guys are MEH about. Seeing how they link to previous and future episodes... it makes them soo much better. Also the story arc as a whole improves allot of episodes on re-watch. For example: Knowing that martok is a changeling, you can go back and watch way of the warrior and look for signs. How did he fake the blood test. Which i don't think the blood tests ever worked, i don't think they've ever successfully caught a changeling. They can only catch amateur changelings like ODO. I think it was a fake basheir on S3 finale the adversary that presented them as a way to catch changelings. He used it to frame eddington i think... The adversary Bashier changed his hand into a blood drawer, made it look like he drew blood from eddington, then shook it to show eddington was a changeling, then reabsorbed it when no one was looking. I think Martok cut himself in way of warrior to show he bleeds... then reabsorbed himself/blood when he wiped the blood from the table with his hand.. Finally, it could've been Weyon who infected ODO , i have to go back and rewatch it... SEE even now i'm discovering more story threads to follow in older episodes.

A Plain and Simple Tailor

Hating ST6 has to be a gimmick. Great movie that is hard to believe any Trek fan would dislike

Evan Guthrie

I really like this one. I would definitely put it above Emissary but yeah DS9 has some great season openers to go up against. But Alex's desires for an episode of TV continue to be enigmatic. Maybe we just need to get it through our heads that these high concept war story-type episodes are not his thing.

reactive1

Solid A episode!

Target Audience

Does talking about something for a minute mean it’s a huge deal?

Colby

This is absolutely the episode I've been looking forward to seeing Damarr in. Perfection. Moving on now.

Colby

How about just The Adventures of Dukat on his warbird?

A Plain and Simple Tailor

It was brought up multiple times as a weakness. Feels super nitpicky just saying

Darren

The Martok reveal is great the Changlings are shown to be really devious and this fits with their motive. I’d agree probably not best season opener, but DS9’s season openers are so strong that’s not even criticism.

Darren

It’s a shame the producers were not allowed to do what they wanted with this episode and expand it out.

Matchstick Jose

I've always been curious how they would have structured the story as a two-parter. Is part one almost all the journey on Dukat's Bird of Prey and part two is entirely them on the planet? Is there a full-on B plot with Kira, Dax and Bashir dealing with some Klingon problem back on DS9?

Loot Narsbaar

I hate ST First Contact and people are convinced it’s a gimmick and it’s not

Loot Narsbaar

I don’t think it’s a great episode and I can’t see why someone wouldn’t love it

Loot Narsbaar

He would have gotten no support and been killed immediately

Loot Narsbaar

You couldn’t go back and rewatch episodes unless you had taped it when it originally aired. When an episode was gone it was gone. I was out of town when Basics II aired and didn’t see it until YEARS later when it aired in syndication. So yeah, people would need to be brought up to speed.

Jeff McCoy

Very surprised that Alex didn't like Shatner's scene in ST: III. For an actor who tends to overplay a lot of scenes, the fact that he was so subdued at first makes it work so much better for me. He's in shock that the son he thought he could finally have a relationship with has been killed. The shock, then sadness, then anger, one emotion after another.

Loot Narsbaar

Him falling back and missing the chair is good, but the way he delivers the lines “Klingon bastard killed my son..” is very off for me and kind of cheesy.

John M.

You guys used to be terrible at guessing the behind-the-scenes machinations, but you're really good at it now. The "hey let's have a Klingon arc because Worf is here and we'll get back to the Dominion later" is precisely what happened.

Sam Langanke

The Klingon empire doesn‘t have a king. It has an emperor, which is powerless and more like a symbol. Like in Japan. The leader is a chancellor.. Like in Germany.

Philbot

I read somewhere that they said we never met the real Martok? But if it’s a changeling in the way of the Warrior then he was very concerned about his son’s honor? ‼️

Philbot

It occurred to me that although Martok had not met him the Changeling has?

Scott Woodward

Gentlemen, welcome to season five! I agree with you this is not the strongest premiere, which is odd to say because this is easily my favorite season of Trek of any series. But it just gets better from here. I do think it was a good call to make Martok the changeling. It makes his scenes urging Golron to attack during Way of the Warrior much more the devil whispering in his ear in hindsight. One thing I love about this season is that it makes rewatching past seasons much more worthwhile in that way.

paultardspambot .

The idea with Sisko was he hit the Klingong out of anger because he was bragging about the starfleet people he killed. Sisko got a chance to get hi revenge in but make it sound like a logical reason Klingon

paultardspambot .

Dax was supposed to be in this once but Farrell couldnt deal with the makeup

paultardspambot .

You're assuming they did something to Odo remotely

paultardspambot .

they planted it in his head when odo was in the great link. Odo said he sensed there were things they were hiding from him but they meant for Gowron's image to pop out because they wanted them to assisinate Gowron. Note in The Visitor when the Klingons take over DS9 and we dont hear from the Dominion in that timeline

paultardspambot .

I think Martok was supposed to be a changeling in Way of the Warrior. Noticed how he screamed at Gowron when Gowron said "enough" and called off the attack when Sisko talked him down

paultardspambot .

well, if Worf killed Gowron that would lead to dramatically different long term consequences, and at this point they already have the big arc things planned out

paultardspambot .

why do you guys want his face to change so much? Why do you think him having a differnt face would be so great?

paultardspambot .

yall are alo forgetting the internet wasnt what it was, and yes there were ways to access episode summaries but the majority of people didnt do that and if you missed an episode, that was that unless you were a hardcore trek fan who would tape all the episodes and in groups who would watch them over and over again

paultardspambot .

if they had resolved in episode of 7 you would need 7 episodes of a full scale Federation-Klingon war. You are right, the producers wanted to make the Klingons bad guys for worf coming back so they wrote that in and yes, this is kind of getting back to what they were going for. But we did have a season of Klingon-Federation hostilities.

paultardspambot .

It woud not make Worf the leader of the Klingons since he's regarded as a traitor. A klingon in good standing, yes

paultardspambot .

There is a fan made show called "The House of D'Gholkus" focused on Klingons. There is also a book series, I. K. S. Gorkon. STO has the Klingons as one of two major factions along with the Federation and the Romulans as third faction and a minor campaign with the Dominion

paultardspambot .

Also, remember from season 1 of TOS Kirk was on that planet where the governor killed half the population because the planet was behind the lines in the Klingong war. I think even going back to TOS, kirk really didnt like Klingons. They are the ones kirk had a direct expereince of their brutality with. Its realistic for someone to be open minded and anti-racist but have one prejudice. Your person favorite Mark twain was a big anti-imperialist anti-racist except when it came to native americans who he had direct expereince with.

paultardspambot .

again, not justifying it, just saying it's realistic

paultardspambot .

something you guys didnt comment on was the changeling showing himself in front of the Klingons. It's meant to show how he (unlike Salome Jens) hates Odo so much he loses his cool. I think we we are getting a vibe that Salome is the one who feels SHE failed in her mission to bring him back and the others hate him. Even the changeling Odo killed seemed to have some real anger towards gim, seeing him as a traitor. Salome commented that she thinks perhaps it was the Founders fault for senging out the 100. That would have been before they founded the Dominion and developed their hatred of solids

paultardspambot .

I don't think Odo is supposed to be an alcoholic, he's just depressed

paultardspambot .

but besides them klling Gowron, Martok would ascend to the leadership of the Empire so it's a two for one

River Acheron

I do wanna say, Odo's face being human is another example of you (mostly Alex) focusing on something that doesn't matter that's falsely affecting opinions. It should not even be a factor.

River Acheron

Yes it would be better and hell, easier on Rene. But take it as "it is what it is" and don't let it bother you or affect your opinion because it doesn't matter. Just my 2 cents.

River Acheron

Again, Ill repeat what I said last season. While Josh really digs this show, Alex can't stand it. He is struggling and its clear in his eyes and the way he's explaining himself. That's valid! But yeah, I think it's obvious.

Terminaldogma01

The Founders fooled Odo in the link. “Hiding” things from Odo or feeding him false information?

Loot Narsbaar

Actually, from what I've read there were no plans of that. In fact up until the 11th hour Gowron was going to be a changeling.

Loot Narsbaar

If you are referring to destroying the other Bird of Prey, I would argue it gave them the highest chance for their missions to succeed as long as no one saw them do the deed. Worf would seem to be public enemy #1, so even if he has different facial hair to disguise him I'd argue there's a good chance of him being recognized let alone having his bluff called.

Back Flip Bet

They were locked in, josh and alex calling stuff early.

Back Flip Bet

They only know he is a fan favorite. Not how long he is important

Aroha

All I remember about this ep was people thinking Avery looked really hot as a klingon lol. Still think it's a pretty good opener.

Devlin Murphy

Got to be real, your guys criticisms feel increasingly bad faith or based on slight personal annoyances rather than real criticisms. Over the last season it's genuinely felt like alex in particular has a chip on his shoulder even as the show repeatedly serves what an episode or two earlier he says he wants. While taste is subjective, this increasingly feels like he feels entitled to the show being done exactly as he wishes and when it doesn't it makes him annoyed and he checks out rather than engaging with the series on the terms it was written. IDK maybe I'm off base, but if you see this alex, and to a lesser extent josh, I would challenge you both to genuinely reflect if you're actually approaching this and your other shows as unbiased as you think you are.

Sam Langanke

No. Depending on his daily mood he enjoys one episode and hates another just because of a minor detail.

River Acheron

While I am a strong believer that everyone is entitled to their opinions and I have friends that adore Voyager (why? lol) and hate DS9 and that's cool! HOWEVER; there is such a thing as biased opinions and yea I don't think those are valid reasons to dislike something. When someone dislikes an episode due to a recap, or a minor irk from one bit of dialogue, or if someone goes into an episode or movie with preconceptions, or if said episode or movie isn't what they wanted, I don't believe those are really valid opinions that reflect the media itself. This is hard to explain but what I'm saying is, I agree with you. I don't think Josh does this too much, but I think with Alex it's getting worse. My advice (to especially Alex) would be to ignore the irks. And hey, it's a perfectly human and normal thing some people do. I'm not saying it isn't! I just think he may get much more enjoyment out of the show if he is able to turn off that part of himself that gets annoyed over tiny little things and/or preconceptions.

River Acheron

The other thing I see sometimes is complaints that something in the episode wasn't explained, when indeed it was and they talked over it or forgot it. Obviously in those instances they should reevaluate it because that's not the episodes fault.

River Acheron

What I do is take the exposition or recap as a curiosity of a TV era from before I was born. I also think there's a difference between making fun of it (valid) as opposed to seeing it as a weakness of the episode itself, when in fact it was an absolute must back in old timey days. Just be like, "welp, it wasn't meant for us. It was meant for 90's and 00's audiences and mandated by the studio for retention."

Summer

Maybe its because of how when I first wstched I just on autopilot went to this episode I do not recall being concerned, I was just watching the show, on my own I always skip recaps and don’tmind if reactors do, and in subsequent watches I know so its more about the whole episode and continuing on

Starquake

Many here are talking about the dudes reactions to DS9, mainly Alex, and the sense that he's not into it and they're nitpicking. Though I agree with many of those assessments, I realize DS9 isn't for everybody, and I'm not gonna let it hurt my feelings; I didn't write, produce, direct, or act in it, and I don't own Paramount stock. But, where I do take issue is the dudes not giving DS9 the credit and respect it deserves. What I mean by that is there have been a number of times prior to S5 where they've made comments to the effect of 'Oh that's ballsy, bet it goes back to status quo by next episode' and an episode or so later they've proven wrong. You would think that by now, they'd give DS9 the benefit of the doubt but based on comments I'm still hearing, it's clear they do not. That's fine and all, and I won't go into detail so as to not even remotely spoil anything, but it's the one part of their reactions I wish they'd figure out.

River Acheron

But see, thats the issue I have with Alex. I think he is using minor irks and excuses to justify his complaints, which I said in a previous post are not really valid reasons for disliking something. But to your point, if he came out and said, "Look guys, this show isn't for me. It's not the direction I expected for Trek and I have no investment." THAT is valid. That's perfectly fine. And im not saying Alex is lying, but he may be even telling himself these things. Or I am WAY overthinking things. Something has absolutely changed with Target Audience though as there's much more negativity than there used to be with their reviews. Maybe they're trying more of a critique direction? Again, I could be way overthinking them.

River Acheron

It's not just Trek, but X-Files lately as well. I'm not saying I want false praise, but it does feel that they are taking a more analytical, critical and yes, negative approach to the way the review and react. There was always a little bit of that, but it's been amplified lately is all I'm saying. Definitely a tonal shift. Because I find it hard to believe that they have just genuinely not been loving anything on DS9, Voyager or X-Files in the past few weeks.

Erik L Jerks

I never though of that. After being dupped, every changeling probably remembers you.

Erik L Jerks

He's a pretty terrible Klingon.

THE Fans

I'm not sure if you guys will see it this way, but when you guys are disappointed with big episodes like this one, you seem to be looking at it like a movie. You keep thinking too much about what you would do differently and disregarding any future plans the writers have. Such as your 10 minute rant about wishing they had killed Gowron. Did you really think that's the best option for episodic tv.... kill one of the best guest characters? Trust the writers have better ideas than yours.

Starquake

I think it's just another example of them not giving credit to the writers. The writers have intentionally molded Odo's character to be a man of order and routine. He doesn't want to be noticed either, both from a personal standpoint and a professional standpoint, he prefers to lay low. Taking on a new face would be a MASSIVE disruption to his character and a betrayal of everything they spent 4 seasons fleshing out about his personality, not to mention it would imply some sort of care or vanity about his appearance, again something that Odo has never demonstrated a care for, quite the opposite actually.

River Acheron

I think they would give many of these S's or A's if they knew where things were headed. No fault of them, but this is a show that gets better and better with each re-watch. But ya, I agree, even if this is your first time seeing this, there should be more trust....an assurance that "this is probably leading to something." There definitely needs to be less, "I wish it was this or that." or "I would have done it differently." In my opinion.

Rangsk

I was a huge fan of Star Trek TNG/DS9/Voyager when they aired, but even so I still missed episodes. I would check the TV Guide for reruns to see if they were showing an episode I hadn't seen and try to fill in the gaps. But even with that, it took me years to fill all the gaps of missed episodes and I still wasn't sure I'd seen them all. Recaps were essential. There weren't DVDs where you could just binge. If you wanted to own the show, you had to buy VHS tapes with 1-2 episodes per tape. It was prohibitively expensive to own any significant number of episodes (not to mention space taken up), and often you had to wait years before they were available at all.

Tim Nikiforovs

When I was a kid, the family VHS library included probably 150-170 trek episodes, around 2/3 of them TNG. Kinda crazy going from that to a whole show on a comparatively tiny box set.

Tim Nikiforovs

Gotta get that roleplay in when the opportunity presents itself

Tim Nikiforovs

It could theoretically even be the same changeling that was on Earth impersonating the chief

River Acheron

And mentioning it once, twice, or even three times is fine. It just seems to really bother Alex in a very curious way. Another example of him not being able to let something so insignificant go. He can't seem to just move on from little things that annoy him.

Tim Nikiforovs

True, but one often leads to the other

Carl Williams

Josh literally called season 4 of DS9 the best season of Trek to date. I could see the concern in season 3 when things weren’t clicking a ton during the mid season slump / PastTense-gate / “meh” response to TDIC from Alex, interspersed with the pleasant surprise of Voyager S1, but I honestly think as of late it’s been obvious they think very highly of DS9. They are very self-aware that they can be critical of certain aspects because they hold the show to a high standard, vs Voyager where they kind of cut it some slack because they’re rooting for it to get better. Also, come on, Apocalypse Rising is on no one’s top 10 for this show. It’s not the episode to get nervous that they’re nitpicking something for a minute in the course of a generally positive review.

Tim Nikiforovs

Jake is all grown up. He went from wearing clothes made from upholstery to wearing clothes made from striped wall paper, like a true gentleman. Definitely higher on it than you guys. This is a solid A tier. WotW is definitely stronger, and it's about on par with The Search. I'd put this ahead of The Homecoming though. There's just so much to enjoy here. Dukat dressing himself up in military honors like a South American dictator, then being utterly confused at O'Brien being the baby's father, followed by amusement at seeing Sisko and the others in their klingon disguises. We got some great scenes between Sisko and Odo as he tries to help him through accepting being a solid. I love the scene where Kira admits it was Keiko's fault but says she'd rather blame Bashir. Once again, it's very natural sounding dialogue. Plus the episode is well directed overall. I do agree it would have been great to see Dax as a klingon, but I get that Terry had a bad reaction to the prosthetics. As for Odo's face, I don't buy into any "the audience won't recognize him without the makeup" theories. I've seen Rene in other roles and he doesn't look that different. The changelings left him looking like that to rub salt in the wound, remind him every day of what he lost. So why doesn't he get Bashir to give him a fully human face? It's because he's still clinging to his past as a changeling, and he's not ready to let it go yet. Shame Martok ended up being a changeling. I rather liked him in WotW. That said, Gowron is too entertaining of a recurring character to kill off IMO. And hey, we got several "glory to you, and your housssse" for the price of one in this episode. Plus it would be pretty hard to settle things down with the Klingons if they killed him. HardER that is, it's still going to be a challenge to get back to genuine peace. This episode also had one of the more brutal energy weapon effects we've seen in a while. When Martok shot the klingon guard outside the cells, you could see his ribs and internal organs for a brief moment. Reminded me of the effect from Loud as a Whisper, but much better executed. Solid start to a top tier season.

Dark Kronis

fun fact, Jadzia Dax to be the fourth member of the undercover infiltration team sent to expose a Changeling posing as Gowron. Because of Dax's deep knowledge and love of Klingon culture, it made perfect narrative sense for her to go. However, because Farrell's skin could not tolerate the heavy rubber, glue, and prosthetics required to transform her into a Klingon, the writers had to alter the script. They replaced her character on the mission with Chief Miles O'Brien

Avaria

The coffee scene with Odo where he drinks from and then refills his mug is actually there to hint at the Federation-style blood test being unreliable. The Klingon-style test where you let the blood drip out onto a separate surface is only marginally better. Joseph Sisko explained why that one can't be depended on while refusing to be tested himself. Spot The Changeling is often a losing venture with little to offer beyond stoking paranoia, and the Founders know it, that's why they encourage it.

Avaria

According to Michael Dorn, Colm Meaney absolutely hated the make-up process, too. Poor guy.

Avaria

It's Odo's face. There are many things Odo struggles with, but he is actually satisfied with himself. He's aware he stands apart, but that's not the same thing as disliking who he is or his appearance. The distinction from the Changeling perspective is whether or not someone is solid or not, not what they look like. The Changelings most likely present themselves the way they do as an appeal to Odo -- since we're all subconsciously more comfortable with others with whom we can spot similarities. Since they view themselves as inherently superior to "solids" they wouldn't take Odo's face, even after inhibiting his ability to shift. And really, forcing him to be Human, or Bajoran, would be making him something other than himself, which wasn't really the point of the punishment.

jon bolton

As much as i love this episode, i've thought the same thing about Dax, she knows almost as much about Klingon stuff as Worf.

Paul

Josh, teasing the return of the White Boards is cruel and unusual punishment. 😢

Trekkie74205

Just because Ira Steven Behr was the showrunner, he still reported to Rick Berman who had to take input/orders from Paramount. The recap could have been mandated after the episode was written or put together by an editor without input from ISB. We know Josh can do trailers so I imagine he could do better recaps too. This was a great example of the DS9 producers not being locked in by doing a "Part 1" Season Finale. When Broken Link was written they absolutely planned on Gowron being the changeling. When they came back after the break it was decided to make it Martok instead.

Tony Lamb

If you both got your wish that Gowron is killed by Worf it would have drastically changed the trajectory of the whole rest of the series. Be careful what you wish for because the reality is the shows trajectory takes a much better story line than anything you guys are coming up with. And, Alex, just admit you don't like DS-9. It just gets frustrating hearing all the changing requirements you need for this show to clear your bar.

Trekkie74205

I honestly think Alex's goal of the channel was to watch TNG. Once they finished it, he has not been the same.

Lovok

Outside of "Hard Time" and "The Quickening," I don't think there was a single episode Alex truly enjoyed in the entire second half of S4. The apathy for DS9 continues into S5. Just admit you don't like the show! It's okay -- it's not for everyone.

Scarpad’s Domain

Yeah this is so much better than the season 2 premiere it’s laughable

Scarpad’s Domain

No judge the episode on its merits not on what the future holds I commend them for that even if they are wrong

Scarpad’s Domain

Maybe they should do an episode where Sisko fights a clown

EnigmaticPenguin

People are annoyed with Alex but I think it goes a long way to prove you guys are authentic. If you don’t vibe with something, speak your truth, even if it’s for superficial reasons. He’s still wrong. DS9 rules!

Scarpad’s Domain

No but to harp on it on every episode of every season of every show is a bit draining

Naglfarius

at least Josh had fun. ^^

EmptyDice

When you assume, you make an ASS out of U and ME.

Badmiral Burgess

I love this episode it’s a great season opener but I disagree killing gowron would be a bad move for the show, plus he’s a great actor! Speaking of drinking I notice there’s no fireball or ciders anymore how come!?

Steven McDowell

Speaking of the younger generations (in general), some of them may be able to intellectually understand that the technologies, infrastructures and business models were different, but because it has never been their reality, they have trouble (and perhaps an unwillingness to) internalizing that understanding. It is indeed it’s own version of “present-ism”, along the same vein that “today is ‘THE MOMENT’” and the realities of the past, in both topics big and small, are too abstract to quantify, recognize and understand.

Steven McDowell

DS9 is a weird hybrid series. You’re right that it gets better ‘with context’, and that context can be learned and understood later. Yet, each episode should stand on it own and should be understandable solely within the confines of those 45 minutes.

AdmiralMurphy

Thank you for the return of the white boards, it just felt wrong without it

Paul

It's always best when they both really vibe with an episode, but by far the worst is when reactors pretend to enjoy something they don't actually like.

Deliximus

"make us wait" for Gowron...... There are bigger fish to fry

Steven McDowell

Well said. And yeah: Robert O’Reilly puts so much personality into Gowron. So neat I got to grow up with that presence, that level of aura on my screen.

Steven McDowell

Especially for a season premiere: the one-min recap was following a real-life three-month break, a break during which vacations, summer sessions and the like occurred. not just the seconds it takes to click a few buttons on an app. I don’t mind a more simple acknowledgement of the recap, but the prolonged discussion of it makes me feel far older than I am and even more out of touch with younger generations.

Steven McDowell

I understand wanting someone to, perhaps, “better appreciate” certain scenes, themes and moments, but re-watching a series in a time when so, so many high-quality options exist is a tough call. DS9 is my favorite tv series, for both the louder and quieter themes, and the acting, the writing and the greater universe world-building, not personally for perceived plot holes. And it was a different time. In addition, I was watching for entertainment purposes, not as part of a job and needing something to speak aloud about for an hour after each episode.

A Plain and Simple Tailor

Even worse is at times they do like it but are invested in being "reactors" and the thing is to be contrarian towards anything that gets fan praise

THE Fans

I understand what you're saying... but at the end of season 2, there were complaints from one or both that there should have been a better battle instead of just destroying a single ship.... ummm DS9 is filled with giving tastes of something in small portions..... so in essence, it can and can't be judged by those individual episodes the same as TNG was or TOS. Maybe the fault is within ourselves... We hyped up the episodes, the seasons, and the series.... I don't think these guys will know they're eating a 10/10 five course meal until they've finished dessert

Jeff Cornell

I always thought it would be more appropriate if Odo was made bajoran rather than human. But my headcanon is that the Great Link made him human because his initial crime of killing another changeling was associated with Starfleet; a primarily human organization.

Greg Quinn

Also....the explanation that in universe the guy has gotten used to his own face and doesn't want to change it makes sense.

STEMBOB

Feels like Alex has checked out already, maybe Josh should react alone. I don't mind if they don't like an episode but I may not watch their final thoughts as they can sometimes bash the episode for a good 30 minutes for very little reason at all. Or we have to listen to how they would make it better.

Steve Kaye

I think this is where I've gotta bow out of this channel. I respect that there's no pretending going on, but Alex's constant downer attitude about DS9 is just not enjoyable to experience as a viewer. Especially because it seems as though he is down on the most nit-picky things, which kinda tells me that he just doesn't like the show in general, if the things he talks about can really colour entire episodes so much for him. It's a shame because I was enjoying your reactions to Trek more than any other reactors I've watched. I'm glad Josh is enjoying the show still, and I hope he continues to, and I wish you both all the success going forward!

Steve Kaye

I absolutely adored their Trek/DS9 journey but I just feel deflated when they're (more so Alex) just not feeling episode after episode, and for reasons that I just personally don't understand. That being said, I'll never tell somebody that they're wrong for not liking something, it's just not an enjoyable experience for me as a viewer if that's the case. Still love the guys and hope this channel just gets bigger and bigger.

Robert

Alex will definitely come to appreciate these episodes in retrospect. At the very latest once they get to Discovery.

E Parhas

I have only one thing to say ...........GLORY TO YOU AND YOUR HOUUUUUUSE

River Acheron

Much of newer Trek is good. Disco Seasons 1 and 2 suck yes. But i thought that show got AMAZING. And sorry its better than Voayger and i will die on that hill

River Acheron

People dont wanna hear a mocking hate channel and thats what Alex is giving. To say he hates the show is fine! And it would actually give an interesting dynamic between him and Josh. But his reasons for disliking episodes are not valid and legit most of the subs are feeling that.

River Acheron

I wouldn't be opposed to 'Just Josh'

Todd

I think Miles as the 4th Klingon was fun because he has to change his vocal inflections more than any of them.

Todd

I think Alex doesn't have anything to say, for whatever reason, which is why he repeats the same things over and over.

Todd

alex I think you woke up on the wrong side of the bed, why so grumpy??? Can't just enjoy a fun episode? Shatner's performance with his son's death not good? Come on! Dude I think it might be time to pick up weed smoking it'll make the show more fun...and take the edge off of life ;) It's ok you don't have to keep worrying about what's going to happen or what could be, trust everyone that it works out. just enjoy the ride my dude!

Todd

It's very strange to get so upset over conventions of tv from 30 years ago. It's strange that Alex can't accept the fact that people would join late, miss the intro, need constant reminding of the plot...is it annoying especially from today's perspective? Sure. But that's HOW tv from the 70s through 90s worked in a pre DVR pre streaming era. This is just how the game worked you have to just accept it you can't keep banging your head against the wall expecting it to be different when they had legit reasons to why they did it. TV was just made was differently. I love Alex but sometimes I think he comes into the show in a sour mood and everything that isn't perfect becomes a little sliver under his nail eating away at him making it impossible for him to just enjoy the ride. I know he revels in his bad moods and sour demeanor at times (and I have friends like this as well who think it's some cool thing to be down on things or critique ever little thing to the point they can barely ever like anything) but man as you age you really realize how much better it is to see the good in things and try to not and care so much about the flaws, life is better, entertainment is better and you are able to just enjoy things without letting them ruin your day.

Summer

I will also be leaving after this month, despite my love for DS 9 and Voyager this isn’t what I watch reactors for, trust me I can hate episodes but and take that, to ardently refuse to accept the point of the show and complain about nonsense when I just wanted to watch with people, my birthday is next week and I am too old to waste money here, I can check into YouTube now and then and see if it has improved. But some are anhedonic

Tim Nikiforovs

It was like they invented that ceremony to get as many of those out of him as possible.

GreenCauldron08

45:35 Actually yes, that's exactly what happened! Colm and Avery both HATED the klingon makeup.

GreenCauldron08

If you're itching for some more Klingon content to react to, watch Star Trek: Klingon. It's a video game but you can watch the whole thing like a short movie on youtube. And you don't have to worry about spoilers cuz it came out in 1995. I think you'll both like it!

Mr Moxie

Josh, one thing you can take comfort in: Some people hype characters not because they become big but because they are always nothing burger characters. It's been years since I last watched DS9, so I genuinely don't remember, but it may be the case that Dukat's other guy becomes a bigger deal, but it also may be the case that he never shows up again. Audience members popping at a glup shitto character in trek doesn't mean that character will necessarily become a bigger deal. I bring it up because you seemed sour that you were spoiled by commentors enthusiasm, but I think if you keep this in mind it might help you feel less bad because enthusiasm genuinely can mean a lot of different things to different people. Just ask Ensign Gates.

Avaria

River, two relatively non-spoilery credits I'll give you with regards to Disco: 1) It's consistently striking, visually. Good job standing out, production team! And 2) it does its job well being the foundational backbone of the majority of newer Trek. I might personally put it on par with Voyager, as I can't really decide which I prefer overall

Avaria

Important to note when considering what the internet was like in the mid-90s: The majority of people in the U.S. at the time had their access through AOL, which didn't start transitioning away from hourly billing (yes, HOURLY) until December of 95. We also all had dial-up modems, so unless you could afford a dedicated second line, (not cheap) you weren't on the internet that much -- someone might have needed the phone.

Mina Haroun

Steven, there hasnt been any quality shows to watch. Especially star trek. That is why i often find myself rewatching DS9. DS9 was amazing for its time and it has aged pretty good. That is why this channel is popular. Add to that all the story threads and forshadowing in earlier episodes... its really entertaining on rewatch. Soo much i want to talk about that i can't for spoiler reasons. Avaria ,I never got the vibe that I should be worried that anyone can be a changeling.

paultardspambot .

yeah, the hardcore fans would use usenet forums back then

paultardspambot .

So they arent going to read this most likely but I think thats technically a spoiler since this is explicitly explained in a later episode if i recall

paultardspambot .

Whats strange to me is why he thinks using rene's actual face would be some sort of massive improvement. I just don't get that point

paultardspambot .

My honest guess here is he never liked DS9 because he liked trek for the fact it wasnt serialized which is something he seems to dislike about more modern shows. He was still in for Voyager but now that he feels Voyager had a weak season 3 start, he's worrying that the complaints about Voyager were accurate and he's now going to have two shows he doesn't like and feels frustrated. After all, he's said he doesn't like.... 1. Big Arc plots. 2. The Dominion, which he's been soured on ever since their introduction in "The Jem'hadar" because he wanted the whole episode to just be a caming trip 3. "First contact" episodes which he defines pretty broadly but to him seems to involve any cultural misunderstandings or rime directive stuff 4. Bajoran politics episodes 5. Emissary episodes 6. Mirror universe episodes 7. Ferengi epsidoes 8. Gamma Quadrant Episodes In practice that means not liking DS9 because those categories constitute a signficant percentage of the episodes. I think when TNG was ending he was in a bad mood, and ironically when he shat on the Jem'hadar for reasons I thought were weird nitpitcks where he didn't get things, I feel like he's been soured on DS9. And more for both of them, I don't think they really get what DS9 is fully going for, the way the Emissry plot line and the Bajoran stuff connects with say Past tense and the general themse of the show about imperfect people trying to defend utopian ideals in an imperfect world and what it takes to do that when you aren't already in utopia. A clear contrast to TNG. He's also complained "star trek could be anything" when talking about DS9 which I think speaks to a desire for a show where you go to a planet, deal with its problems, then go off and the next episode is a clean slate. Unlike DS9 where it's much more about using the world built in the previous treks and taking that universe seriously as a place where things happen and have long term consequences that matter. In fact, going deeper, maybe thats the central problem. He loved TNG and DS9 in many ways is sort of the anti-thesis. I feel like for the people who loved Voyager and hated TNG, in many ways its because Voyager tried to be TNG 2.0. So his frustation maybe is with DS9 as a concept, being disappointed that it's not trek as he likes it, and frustarted with that. But not necessarily consciously, and often when you have a frustration you can't articulate that adds to the frustration

River Acheron

It's him constantly harping on it every scene and being actively upset over it that makes no sense. These are the things I cannot get past. To say it once, "Oh, wouldn't it be cool if he looked Human or Bajoran now?" would be fine and I agree it would have been a nice touch. But it should be a passing thought. Not something that actually pisses him off.

River Acheron

Plus the show went further and gave us an in-universe explanation, so that's more than enough for me.

Collin Freeman

Poor Rene. Never catches a break. Even when he no longer has Changeling abilities, not only does he have to keep the Changeling make-up, he then has to be made up like a Klingon.

Collin Freeman

What! Kill off Robert O'Reilly?! I'm sure the producers and writers did not want to do that. His Gowron is such a fan favorite, and probably one of theirs, as well.

clone1138

They were more trouble than they were worth.

sword bard

Scarpad's comment is some kind of reverse spoiler, because the fact that everyone *didn't* immediately pile on to say SPOILERS, JEEZ, DELETE THIS is going to indicate to the boys that Sisko does not, in fact, fight a clown in some future episode. Or maybe it's a cunning plan to make them think that's what is happening here, and lull them into a false sense of security before the famous clown episode? The only way to find out is to keep watching.

sword bard

Honestly, I suspect Dax knows *more* about Klingon stuff than Worf does. Worf was not raised in his own culture and because of that, he devotes himself to it utterly as an adult, but he's always been seen as an outsider among Klingons. So they start out fairly equal in that sense, since Curzon was obviously also an outsider among Klingons, and both are/were fanatical admirers of Klingon culture. But on the one hand you have a guy who did not grow up in his birth culture and lived among that culture only sporadically for short periods as an adult, versus a guy who was an ambassador living among Klingons for (I think?) at least a decade and potentially longer, was apparently beloved and accepted among them, and had deep ties to many Klingons including 3 close friends, 1 of whom was close enough to name a son after him. Dax is a non-Klingon Klingon and Worf is a Klingon non-Klingon in terms of integration into the Klingon community.

sword bard

Quark's suits finally used up all the upholstery fabric in the quadrant, so Jake had to change his style.

Roy J.

If Worf did manage to kill Gowron it would've meant all out war between the Feds and the Klingons... pushing any Dominion plots even further back and giving them even less spotlight moments. Then the complaint would be they've built up the Dominion so much early on only for it to fall flat at the end. In DS9, things that happened n in past episodes make more of a comeback later in the show than it did with TNG. Because Gowron still lives and the Feds helped expose the Martok changeling, it will change the show up again. And there's a hint at the end of what will happen in the future between 2 characters... you'll get your wish eventually.

Roy J.

He DID make a great Klingon and played the part well.

Roy J.

It was an excellent moment for the Founders to feed false infomation.

River Acheron

Also need I remind people that TNG seasons 1 and 2 are overall atrocious. Embarrassingly awful. (yes there were a couple great episodes but the seasons 90% suck. I don't think Disco seasons 1 and 2 are NEARLY that bad.

Mina Haroun

One of my favorite SCENE in this episode is Gul Dukat being told Chief Obrien is the father of Kiera's BABY!!!! Obrien got to have Kiera before DUKAT!!!

Steven McDowell

Yeah, I get it. The comfort of having the show on in the background for me a couple times a week is nice. Though I have no urge to spoil anyone, much less two friends who have already committed to watching the full series. My excitement comes from seeing first-time reactions, unspoiled. I would like our intrepid reactors to naturally unravel the tapestry that is DS9, rather than have their excitement dulled or completely mitigated by a single paying patron or a free-watching YouTube comment.

The Bezzopulous

Everyone knows alcohol kills germs, correct?