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Dominant - Finance Special (Patreon)

Published:
2022-12-20 07:00:03
Imported:
2026-06
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  • Finance Special.mp3

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Content

Before the show takes its Christmas break, Martyn is joined by John and Andy to take a closer look at how the vision of the revolution was funded and how that vision was lost. From commercial behemoth to a financial basket case, the roots of 2012 can be found in this era of plenty.


Dominant will return for its closing chapter on Tuesday 10 January 

Files

Previews only

Comments

Jamie Anderson

Does anyone have else have volume issues with the dominant shows? I feel I’m turning up/down the volume depending on who is speaking all the time.

Martyn Ramsay
>>97899735

Sorry you’re experiencing that Jamie. I’ve had a quick scan through on both the app and the site and seems fine at my end.

Callum Dinnen
>>97899735

John can sometimes be a bit quiet but haven't had any issues with this week's so far (about 36 mins in)

Rob Shorthouse

A fascinating discussion. As far as I was concerned at the time, having 'agility' at the top was the key to our continued success. It wasn't so much that we didn't see what was going on across the city, arguably we didn't really care. We had been so far ahead for so long that it was almost impossible to countenance any thought that they might be doing something better than us. Really enjoyed this.

Martyn Ramsay
>>97901977

Yeah I wouldn’t disagree with that. We lauded that agility constantly and again, perhaps Rangers serve as a good exemplification of the times: ruthless revolution and aggressive capitalism of the late 80s, the complacent contentment of the 90s and recklessness of the 00s.

Andy Barnett

Superb show again gents. huge missed opportunity wasted by Murray's ego. Can only hope that lot mis-manage themselves or it'll be some time yet before we catch up 100%.

john cowden
>>97902644

I would argue it doesn’t matter what they do, although them being useless is always a help, we need to get our act together at board level and be much much better than we are currently. The individuals and as a collective either need to shape up or ship out .

Ally Mair

Surely this show won’t ever end say it isn’t so Martyn as always fantastic show

Callum Dinnen
>>97902644

Unfortunately I think Murray's mismanagement of us gives Celtic's board an easy out whenever their fans get agitated at perceived lack of investment (eg failure to spend big in January 2009). It's too easy for Celtic's board to justify not taking risks by saying 'look what happened to that lot, do you want to end up in that mess?'

Callum Dinnen

I thought the comment about Celtic operating like a more old fashioned Scottish financial institution was incredibly telling, particularly as we were banked by HBOS in the 2000s. Bank of Scotland were an old fashioned, prudent Scottish institution until the merger, at which point the corporate division went crazy and lent cash like it was going out of fashion, leading to collapse in 2008, in an almost identical fashion to what happened at Rangers.

Callum Dinnen

Also it's a shame this show ends where it does - I know David, Hoggy and Stuart have done the Advocaat years but a Dominant style show looking at the 1998-2003 period on and off the pitch would be fascinating.

Steve Clark

McClelland went to Watford,we signed him from Mansfield

Martyn Ramsay
>>97904292

Maybe one day but not for a while! Murray and Me should maybe fill some of the off the park stuff though during that period

CJT

Thanks gents, salutary lesson that that unfortunately some haven't learned as they'd take a Murray style sugar daddy back in a heart beat. Having lived through the years of hubris and the, in retrospect, somewhat inevitable nemesis visitation I can't help but feel guilty I stood back and watched it happen. I just thought Murray's pockets were unendingly deep and they were destined to be eternally bound by small thinking. Both assumptions hopelessly flawed unfortunately. How you learn the lessons of the past is what counts for the future. I think we're still in the laying foundations part. Sure building on those is coming soon

Alastair McGeoch
>>97902644

The gap looks wide again because of poor player and manager recruitment over the past couple of seasons. If we get that right again and we apply footballing pressure we should be able to go toe to toe with them

Alastair McGeoch

This show has been brilliant. As a teen wage when we did 9 in a row and not being a fanzine reader I was unaware of a lot of the unrest at the time. I also assumed at that age that Rangers were being run properly when in actual fact we were a plaything for Murray’s ego. One thing I couldn’t understand is how Murray got “duped” by Whyte for a quid but after listening to this realise it’s because he deep down he didn’t really give a shit about Rangers beyond what it did for his ego. Once the playing field levelled with Celtic and people began to get wise to his schtick against our financial results he just wanted out of dodge in the best way for him not Rangers.

Gregg
>>97920209

He didn’t get “duped” for a quid - there was a gun to his head and he “chose” himself

Dougie Jones

Great stuff as always. On the point about us missing a window of opportunity to form a Super League, I for one am glad we did so, all things considered. If we (and Celtic), like other big clubs in smaller leagues like Benfica, Ajax etc remain 'trapped' then so be it. For me (and paraphrasing Orwell), to imagine a Super League is to imagine AC Milan playing Arsenal forever. Ok that reference doesn't work quite so well now that Arsenal top the EPL as I write but the general point still stands. Those years of Wenger 'success' by finishing fourth? Doesn't really get the pulse racing.

Dougie Jones
>>97922565

There's definitely an issue with the mic levels between John and Martyn. Adjust volume up to hear John, then Martyn comes on. Ok for a few secs then volume goes way up again.

Gordon Mac

I forever remember The Gub going on a rant about Murray one day, I know hard to imagine, I'm just standing there looking at him, he looks up and says "you don't care do you?". Well no of course I didn't, nobody did, we were winning!!

CRAIG CASSELLS

Seem to recall Butcher was offered a £70k annual salary when signing. When Rangers were rebuilding in early 80's the ground was rarely even more than a third full as we were also rans early on in each season. ST holding were under 4000 until Souness' arrival

Alan Bradley
>>97987912

Through 70s and early 80s we didn’t need season tickets. Ok for all home games and fine for away too. Bought my first season ticket June 86 for Approx £60 - rover ticket so could sit in most stands. Remember in press that 6,000 season tickets were sold which was a record for our club.

David Kiltie
>>97906151

That was my recollection. As was pointed out in the Time Capsule which covered the game v Inter in 1984, in 3 years we went from losing our captain to Watford over wages, to signing the captain of Spurs and doubling his pay - incredible change.

David Kiltie

Martyn, John, Andy, well done on a superb discussion. I. Am an accountant by trade so the finance angle has an extra layer of interest from a personal point of view. John elaborates on how the centrality of Murray as top dog prevented the development of proper corporate governance. You point out the shift in the 1997/98 season from reasonable prudence to recklessness. Come summer 1998 it is a case of “don’t back down but double down “ with the extravagance of the Advocaat era. Andy mentions the “speculate to accumulate “ philosophy. This had some logic in the early Souness years - by investing in the team we could re-energise our club’s massive support and tap commercial opportunities. Later on this became a reckless strategy - the transfer and wage spend of the years straddling the millennium could only be justified if we were playing in the later stages of the Champions League regularly. A debt of over £80m in 2003 told its own sorry tale. The word hubris features frequently (no surprise when David Murray is centre stage). John sees the current museum project in that vein. I would see the lack of a club museum as a serious gap - just as the absence of a training complex was a shameful omission for the club before summer 2001. Our club’s history surely demands a permanent memorial and an accessible archive, regardless of the financial aspect.

CRAIG CASSELLS
>>97987912

Bought my first ST, The Rover in 82/83 for £40. The team was shite but ST was a bargain. Think I got into 23 or so games, all in the Govan Rear.

john cowden
>>98005396

David, I would agree we should have a museum, my issue is the timing. Where we are on our financial journey and quality of squad, I believe now is not the time for spending on a museum. The lack of training complex (and better medical resources ) was a significant gap which adversely impacted on our performance on the pitch & our finances.

Gary Brown

A phenomenally interesting show and a vital segue into the background which underpins and drove the entire dominant period. Without exploring, discussing & understanding (well, trying to) these issues the whole ambition and drive of the era is lost, hidden behind 'just' successful football. This period is far, far more than that. Hjndsight is 20/20 and it is very interesting to explore & debate wrong turns but it must be remembered that innovation routinely has no roadmap or precedent - What is the best route up the unconquered mountain? No one knows for sure until it is tried. The dream, vision, innovation & daring of our club during this era, particularly the first half, should forever bring an immense sense of pride to our support. RFC were visionaries and leaders on a global scale. Thanks again for another superb episode Martyn supported superbly by John & Andy.

Steve23
>>97920209

I learnt a lot from that pod, some brilliant insights from Martin, Andy and John. I’ll never defend DM but John Cowden explains it perfectly. The club was a part of a conglomerate with MIM as the principal company. In that structure, the survival of the principle arm is prioritized at the cost of everything else. Due to the way his business was structured, the club was dangerously exposed to a diverse range of markets from day one. That coupled with the complete lack of competent corporate governance meant the final outcome was highly likely if not inevitable. He didn’t invest anywhere near the amount of money from his own pocket he had us believe, he took serious risks and took a shed load of cash from investors and squandered the lot to chase the European dream. Andy also makes a great point on the sustainability of the business model and continuous growth, without a European League, and very much as is the case today, we were a club with a big mentality and relatively big club operating costs working in a very, very income constrained environment. Ultimately, the only consistent revenue stream supporting the business became the fans and god knows did we pay through the nose for it. More recently, considering we had to build again from ground zero in arguably a more difficult operating environment, I have nothing but extreme admiration for our fan base and in particular, the current board for the miraculous pace they have managed us to almost financial stability while achieving what we have on the park in that short time. I believe history, righty, will be very kind to the current board. They have made mistakes but those fans screaming for change at board level and the removal of Park in particular, should be very careful in what they wish for considering the scale of challenge and achievement and overall sound stewardship from the current board. This time round, we have genuine Rangers men in charge and they very much have put their own money where their mouth is, C1872 and the few protagonists controlling it are no friends of the club or the fan base in general and if left unchecked to get their own way, could very easily see us open the door to much worse than David Murray. He wasn’t an asset stripper and never set out to unreasonably profit from or harm the club, there are plenty out there today who would do exactly that if we leave the front doors unlocked again. I do take comfort from he fact that hese days, we have savvy and passionate fan media such as H&H on watch with the means to talk to a very large proportion of the fan base should we start to see a repeat of the totally destructive mistakes from the past hat almost killed our club.

Steve23
>>97943664

Sorry Dougie, maybe I misunderstand your point, but you would rather see Rangers play the likes of Motherwell, at least 4 times a season with our club competing in a 2 horse race for eternity? Not to mention governed by a corrupt and incompetent governing body and a league consisting of teams who hate us and tried to kill us? Away teams bringing scumbags to our home to abuse the memory of those who died in the Ibrox disaster with impunity. Forever handcuffed to a vile club responsible for the biggest child sexual abuse scandal in the history of sport. A league that is moving backwards at pace and becoming ever more of an irrelevance due to mismanagement and complete lack of investment while the footballing super powers we used to better or call our equals continue to grow and prosper? As said, I may have missed your point but I would do anything to see Rangers rid of this backwater.

Steve23
>>98005396

Given the dire need for investment in the playimg staff. I can’t understand how this project has been allowed to get to the stage where costs have exceeded plan by a factor of 3.. I also can’t understand why we seem determined to front load investment and pay now rather than finance over decades with income from this facility servicing the debt as well as provide a continuous income stream.

Martyn Ramsay
>>97943664

These two viewpoints neatly sum up the tension of the second half of this project. An increasing feeling of being trapped in and - even if we weren’t - some didn’t want go any further in any case. The glass ceilings that were shattered in the first half were replaced by concrete. There’s a definite sense of looking inwards instead of outwards and the support being conflicted by that. Still to this day! Thanks for your contributions. Very much appreciated.