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Flagship - Down But Not Out (Patreon)

Published:
2023-12-31 13:46:20
Imported:
2026-06
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Content

David and Ross are here to discuss yesterday's Old Firm and look ahead to 2024.

Happy New Year to all our patrons.

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Comments

mark wyper

In that photo Walsh canny even look at Clement he knows he's fucked up

Latimer

Sterling was booked in the Motherwell game for the exact same challenge Walsh ignored by Johnson on Sima. Cheat.

LMcGrath

Happy new year. Thanks for keeping me entertained year round.

Graeme Glennie

Cantwell is a massive problem. He's not turning up in these games consistently. I thought tav was abysmal yesterday also. I thought the midfield was excellent and I'm hearing people having a go at mcausland which is absolutely laughable. At one point in the 2nd half he was the central player rallying us at 10 men....a 20 year old.

Latimer

Craig Houston made a good point. If Collum decides it's not handball why wasn't it a corner?

Bixby Snyder
>>125778425

Spot on, Graeme. Love Tav, but we need to start a Jordan-Henderson type succession plan for him over the next year.

Robert Reid

A lot of people don't seem to get that most of us accept we didn't do enough to win the game, we also accept that it was likely offside before the handball. What we don't accept is Collum deciding that his hand was in a natural position, making that decision quickly and then for some reason sending an offside VAR decision to Sky later on in the game.

George Higgins
>>125778828

Presumably because var doesn’t get involved in whether it’s a corner or not. That’s down to Walsh. Var only looks at certain things like goals,pen,red cards. Not every mistake a ref makes.

Latimer
>>125778828

Yeah true, still not sure how Walsh doesn't see the handball he's looking straight at it.

Angela Frater
>>125778828

Because if they decide it isn't a penalty (handball) the onfield decisions remains as originally given (albeit incorrect) and is not an incident that VAR can change (eventhough one look at the video tells you it was incorrect). How often do we see corners/goal kicks awarded that are incorrect, that is not a VAR incident. A time logical process has to be applied. For VAR to intervene Collum must state he feels a clear and obvious error by Walsh not to award a penalty has occurred. (We later find out this is the case - he apparently stated no error... that is an entirely different discussion!). If no error (handball) then play on is waved (as happens in real time), that incorrect by kick decision cannot be changed. Offside would/should not then be checked as no VAR incident (penalty) has been awarded. Interestingly, Collum saw that the ball came off Johnson, meaning he knew Walsh had made a mistake, even if he himself felt it wasn't a handball he probably should have sent Walsh to the monitor to look as Walsh obviously didn't see the incident fully because he awarded and incorrect goal kick! So whilst people are all getting their knickers in a knot about "but it was offside so it wasn't a penalty" that is irrelevant, and what we should be discussing is why a penalty wasn't even awarded (then chalked off for being offside - when you follow the process step by step). The onfield actions (and the VAR screen) suggests that the decision was no penalty due to "no handball" (not as we were later told "offside in the run up" - for that to be the case they must have awarded the penalty, technically, then removed it for offside,which would have resulted in the decision being changed to an indirect free kick because VAR has correctly intervened and awarded the penalty, then chalked it off. Complicated,but if the officials had gotten that right either way its no penalty, the fact is the cocked it up big time and only the release of the audio will clear it up.

KAD87

Thanks to everyone at H&H for this years pods/shows. Been an up and down year for us rangers fans but the pod has always been an up for me (regardless of results). Here’s to a class 2024!

Andrew Finlayson

The h2h against them bothers me, you have to go back to the Helander game for us to have won a old firm that mattered. I still think we’ll win this league, i think we are in a decent position, we just have to continue to deal with the dross and take 4 points over the next 2 old firms.

Brian McLatchie

Surprised in all the reviews on game no one has discussed the amount of fouls (9) before he got a yellow in the 84th minute, would say he was MoM, he committed fouls you would want him to make but if he gets what would have been a deserved yellow early doors, he doesn't have the same influence on the game

Alex M

Tbh I don't think we do know it's offside. I missed it during the match but 1 I'm not sure the frame is from when the ball was played. 2 the line from the Celtic player seems to start halfway up his calf. Dodgy as. Also the 2 rangers players are running back. I'd need to see what happens, does a Celtic player touch it first?

Chris C

Collum needs to resign. It’s a filthy cover up. Clear as day. Be interesting to see what they concoct up for the VAR audio. They’ll probably re-record it, would you put it past them ? All the best for 2024 bears.

Kev Roberts

All the best to you pair, all the others podders and bears everywhere

Billy Alexander

I won’t be surprised to hear just at the moment they discussed it there was a sudden unexplainable loss of the audio

james whyte

Battle of the Jan window for me. Whoever gets it right wins the Lge. I hope the new recruitment chief gets it spot on.

Jim Bennett
>>125778425

Ross & you Graeme have expressed exactly how I feel about Cantwell, he seems to have assumed extra responsibility due to the number of midfield injuries, but takes too many touches when on the ball rather than moving the ball on & eventually ball is turned over, he has flattered to deceive for most of this season so far, but we know what he can do when on his game.

Gary Shaw

Too many of our players like the idea of being a Rangers player and that’s enough for them…Contrast that with their players like CCV,McGregor,I’Reilly,Kyogo, it’s all buisness with them and a steeliness to get the job done..We’ve got too many players that prance about and moan and complain every time an opposition player brushes them,and the second you do that,they’re in your head and you’re done….the 90s is the perfect example ,guys like Di Canio,Grant ,Donnelly and they were led by an emotional wreck like Burns.

Michael

I agree Cantwell had a poor game and has not been at his best. 'Bear' in mind he has not been in a settled position nor in my opinion was he the right man to negate McGregor. Thought that job could have been Sterling's. Looking forward to another great year from H&H 🍻

Greg

Cantwell and Sima were bigger disappointments than dessers for me.

Heart and Hand
>>125785061

We don’t hate them the way they hate us. Walter’s team did. Gerrard learned to. I hope Phil took yesterday from the reffing, comments from them etc - we need to want to crush them and take pleasure in doing so.

Andrew Rennie

It's cathartic listening to you guys after these games. I think one of the only positives for me about yesterday is it happened a couple of days before a transfer window. I just hope our fanbase doesn't lose the head and gets behind the team

Gregg
>>125781641

Watched the game in mixed company and I said after the first mcgregor foul - here we go let’s count these up. He gets away with murder. Is it any wonder they get so many cards in Europe and they seem to be so surprised about it

Jim Milne
>>125785951

Cantwell yes. Sima was having to work alongside Ridvan with Maeda on that side, and how many times did Sima get in a great goal scoring position only for a teammate to be greedy and mess the chance, more than a couple times he was left shouting at a team mate bout why they didn't pass to him.

Stace1ofthePeople

I hate to blame one player as I think as a whole we weren't great yesterday but if dessers done his job as a striker we were walking away with a point at least.. he is awful 😖

Graham Roy

No doubt we will will have the death threats piece in next day or so to make out big bad Rangers!

Graham Roy
>>125782280

Willie Collum standing in his back garden with an oil drum was just a coincidence!

Martin Boyd
>>125789861

Or Sima or McAusland or the waste of a jersey Cantwell. More than just Dessers to blame for that shit show.

Jim Milne

Yes it hurts like hell, but if I was told December 1st we'd win Europa group by winning in Spain, win the league cup and have the points gap down to 8 with 2 games in hand I'd have bitten your hand off.

Billy McCormack

Not Baffling David, Cheating especially after that VAR audio blank from the SFA.

David

The penalty scandal is bigger than the "Dougie Dougie" incident. We need to go to war with the SFA and the referees and make it a very public war.

Georgie Porgie
>>125785910

Totally agree about sterling did a good job on oriley but i think he wouldve had the bite on mcgregor

John Hood

Interesting David that you believe they will drop points. Can't disagree with that, but so will we. It's going to be a challenge but I'm with you 💯% that we have a gem of a manager in big PC! 🇬🇧

David_Davy_Dave

I generally will accept VAR offside decisions However, when an image is released as part of a cover up it is legitimate to question the frame used. I’m not convinced it was offside. I certainly consider it a stretch in those circumstances to say it was objectively offside

Hendi

Stop excusing the refs. They are well paid. Prison officers and polis make decisions on a daily basis that put them in more danger than a ref. They still make decisions without fear or favour. If refs are scared to do their jobs then leave it.

Spoon

The circumstances yesterday make this the ‘least’ disappointed I have been for a while to lose away to them. They aren’t very good, they might get a few bodies in but ultimately so will we and hopefully our improvement trumps theirs. What gives me confidence is that we competed well, we didn’t collapse and we have an excellent manager who needs a bit of time and has shown he has a proper plan he’s working to. They on the other hand has an ego maniac who’s proved he struggles controlling teams/players and they are about 4 points dropped from rioting. We need to hold our nerve trust in the Clement blueprint and I think we will be ok. Genuinely believe we are a Shankland away from a treble, I really hope we don’t miss out on a guy that despite all the cries about what he can’t do would give us another 15 ish domestic goals for a few seasons and provide a cracking base for the team to collect a few more wins. Said before on Cantwell he’s not my type of player, he allows too much off field nonsense to impact what he does onfield. I get you guys dont like the reference but if your heads not 100% on your football and your creating noise and friction it’s going to impact your ability to perform. He’s too into being a footballer and the life and not focused enough on his output for me, I like grafters and he’s just not my cup of tea, he’s the new Kent. Great pod as always.

Dave Fleming

Walsh obviously didn’t see the handball else it would have been a corner not a goal kick

Alastair McGeoch

The reality is as much as it hurts to lose to them it’s only 3 points. If we win our games in hand we are two points behind, Rogers and McGregor might think it’s over given their laughable comments after the game but it’s still game on.

David Kiltie
>>125803625

As for Rodgers, seeing off Warburton, Pedro and Murty with a vastly bigger budget - hardly anything to boast about. As for McGregor, his comments are disrespectful both to our European opponents and to other Scottish teams. Since Clement has come in we have dropped 2 points against the “nobodies” and they have dropped 10. Otherwise they would have the league sealed already. The fact that we are still in Europe and they aren’t and we have won the Viaplay and they haven’t might instill some humility in the jump the dyke. I agree with the point raised by David on the post match and Flagship - this year more likely it will be the games against the other 10 teams which will decide the title. Precedents for the team winning the title despite being 2nd best in the Old Firm fixtures- 1997/98 (still grinds my gears), 2006/07, though to be fair our 2 wins came when the title was out of sight. More relevant 2002/03 and 2010/11. When we were dunted at their midden that season that lot started arranging their title party. Hubris led to nemesis! I remember in 2003 some Yahoos demanded a rewrite of the rule book so that head to head overrode goal difference. I notice on X a lot of them claiming that Bernardo was fouled by Goldson and not vice versa. They really do beggar belief.

Graham Leatherbarrow

Shocking, disgraceful handball gives goal kick then 25 mins later rules it offside no wonder with Father Colum and Father Clancy on 3rd/var both corrupt to the core. On a yellow when handling ball also meant Johnson would have been off for any other team.

Graham Leatherbarrow

One simple question for enquiry- why did Colum not advise Walsh to review handball?

David Kiltie
>>125785951

Sima has been run into the ground due to the long injury list. I recall Sima shouting at McCausland for shouting instead of passing but to be fair Ross had 3 defenders close to him. I remember two years ago in the lead up to Christmas it was a standing joke on the post match - the Joe Aribo man of the match. When he returned from AFCON Aribo looked a shadow of the player, before coming back into the team late in the season as the false 9. I dread the idea of a similar scenario with Sima. Let’s hope that Dessers can come back from yesterday’s horror showand that Silva can make an quick impression.

Mervyn wslker

Yip very true down but not out & phillippe kens about the system of refs and the Tim’s - the mafia doesn’t have a look in !!

Stace1ofthePeople
>>125789861

They weren't great I agree but they were not worse than dessers sorry. He is a striker. He's there to score goals. He had the best (and multiple) opportunities and blew every one of them . If we had kyogo in our team and gave him the chances dessers had, we would have won the game

Niall MacKay

Great pod and happy new year to you both when it arrives. I agree with all of what you say, with the exception of just one thing, which is your minor doubt at the image they used to prove the offside. If the recent anniversary of JFK's death has taught me anything, and it hasn't, it's that a single frame either way in a video can show a very different picture. Either Lundstram is a size 26 in shoe or the ball was elasticated in that picture. It's completely inconclusive and if they have even fudged their own cover up then that's doubly as bad as them trying to cover up Collum's incompetence as an official. Remember the penalty that little man gave in the Champions League that ended his UEFA career. He's desperate to stand up and make contrary calls to flex his authority. Wee man syndrome and it kicked in yesterday. If we clear him off the list then the pain of not getting the penalty/anything from the game won't all be in vain.

Douglas Innes

Some photo , thats a referee that looks uncomfortable by the line of questioning by the manager

Gordon Millar

I was in Spain watching the game in mixed company in a bar, there was a cheer from them when the decision to not award a penalty and play on......they know and are probably proud of the fact that their orchestrated campaign from press and ex-players is working a treat.....not sure how we reverse this position other than to use their tactics against them....

maccalsa
>>125781105

It's been mentioned by a few guys on the shows at different times. A lot of our squad is mentally damaged beyond repair when it comes to facing Celtic. Deep down their just isn't an inner belief that we will win.... In saying that, I can't see Celtic hit the heights to dispose of everyone. We are still in it

David Kiltie
>>125782280

The SFA’s demand in respect of Scotland’s disallowed goal in Spain puts them in a difficult position. That said they will be keen to be seen as being as uncooperative with Rangers as possible.

Angus Mackay

Regarding the difference between Dessers/ Welsh v Tav/ Kyogo, the difference is that Ibrox Tav/ Kyogo gets awarded. We as a support need to reckon with why that is, because it’s a massive part of what’s holding us back (literally)

Graham soderlund

If a ref is frightened to send players off he’s in the wrong job

David Booth

Apologies for the egocentric bullet points but alot to get off my chest!! For me, there are two decisions that are completely incomprehensible. Every other contentious decision, whilst incorrect in my eyes, at least had some dubiaty; • Balogun is a definite red card. No arguments • The Dessers "penalty" is not a penalty for me. Minimal contact and as the boys say we would be raging if it went against us • The Johnston second yellow should have been given in my opinion, but the referee could point to bad angle and didn't see it (second replay angle looked a lot worse than first) Now... • The Bernardo tackle on Goldson is the most yellow of yellow cards that's ever existed. The only way the referee can't book him for it is if he doesn't think it's a foul which he clearly does as he gave the free kick • With the VAR debacle on the penalty, I think everyone is getting too entrenched in the details. The simple fact is, the SFA, or someone employed by them, has lied one way or another about it which must see heads roll

James Anderson

We seem to have forgotten the VAR disallowed goal at Ibrox where Roofe scores from a Dessers assist. All pundits said that goal should have stood. I have said in the past, that as long as there is an automatic CL group place at stake, we wont be allowed win this league. Without casting aspersions, Walsh, Clancy and Collum being the main men officiating done nothing to dispel this theory for me.

Craig Murray

I could listen to Ross all day long the lad knows his stuff unlike another podder who I instantly turn off, David is still the best tho .

Callum Dinnen

The one thing I'll say in Dessers favour is most of the goals he's scored have been crucial goals which have either put us ahead in games or equalised. I think there is a player there but it's whether the support have the patience with him.