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Discussion Thread: Genocidology is up and live (Patreon)

Published:
2024-05-08 22:10:19
Imported:
2026-06

Content

Thank you to everyone who listened to the preview draft of the Genocidology episode; I really appreciated your thoughts and reflections. We just released the episode to the public, so this is the official discussion thread to chat about it.

It was a tough one to work on (thank you to Mercedes Maitland for so much producorial and research work!) but I hope the flood of information helps contextualize current and historical events. Dr. Dirk Moses is widely regarded as the leading expert on the topic, and I am so grateful to have had access to his work and research. Also I trust you to be kind, inquisitive, and empathetic when discussing.

Thanks again for the thoughts and for listening. After this, we'll have some lighthearted stuff. We could use it.

-Your Pod Pop

Files

Genocidology (CRIMES OF ATROCITY) with Dirk Moses - alie ward

The world is confusing, but there are experts in everything. In our least funny episode ever, we thankfully convinced a global expert, professor, researcher, author, and Genocidologist (it's a real word) Dr. Dirk Moses to answer the questions that we may secretly have: What exactly is genocide? How

Comments

Andrew Piechocki

Thank you for all that you put into this, Alie! I really appreciate the work you have done on this topic!

Jameelah

Thanks Alie! I'm still sitting with two things: why/how it's so hard to prove genocide and the closing bit on de-catastrophizing (sp) events. I'm trying to understand what that looks like and who the ownership is on. But perhaps there are other perspectives

Between Dumplings

Sorry I missed the call for input on this one. This is such a fraught time and so many variables make it hard to discuss this topic. So often the "answers" are wrong because the framing of the question was faulty or weighed down by incomplete data, or bias, or "just" pain. No one can hear your pain until they feel you have really heard their own. And we are really bad at listening. (Which we forget is not waiting to say what we want to say.) And many things can be inconvenient and awful and true all at the same time.

Hope J 🏳️‍🌈

As someone who studied adjacent topics in undergrad (i.e. the Holocaust, nationalism, national memory, immigration) I felt like this was a nice summary of everything I learned in college. It is a thorough examination of a topic that not many people learn about academically and I think this episode was put together really well!

Peyton Nill

I’m so glad you made this!! It’s so important. You should talk to Nadine Burke Harris, MD about epigenetics that impact health outcomes for children, even when the traumatic event occurred to their parents before the child was conceived or born. I think she developed the system to measure ACEs (adverse childhood experiences) to predict health outcomes in pediatric clinics. She wrote The Deepest Well and it described her research and work!

The Bloated Toad

Thanks for a really thoughtful episode Alie! It’s so hard to talk about genocide or any suffering on such a massive scale in an academic context and still maintain grounded in the real full human lives lost, destroyed, and changed. Even so I think you did a great job. Thanks for taking the time and effort to do this topic justice.

HECRaiser

Armenian American here. Really good handling of really painful topics. My great grandmother’s family was wiped out in the Armenian genocide, and only those who had immigrated to America before it started survived. My dad’s generation was brought up with the stories, but it is much more distant for me. Despite that, when I went to an international festival and saw a Turkish vendor selling food that is also Armenian food while there was no Armenian vendor I felt deep pain and rage. If I, several generations distant and thoroughly midwestern American, can still feel the echoes of a genocide from more than a century ago, it speaks to the lasting damage done time after time after time.

Spicy Native

Hey Alie, thank you for doing such a great job on this episode. I can't imagine how hard it must have been to research these intensely heavy events in history and modern times. I hope that you can treat yourself after this episode. Thank you from a Native who is constantly facing the reality of genocide and talking about it in such a helpful and educational way. Go and relax now! 🧡

Heidi Stooshnoff

Thank you for covering this topic. Thank you for the care and consideration that you put into it. And thank you, as always, for the wealth of information.

Anne

Alie and Mercedes. Thank you. You did an incredible job. This episode was informative, pertinent and incredibly graceful.

Wandering Wyatt

Thank you again so much for this. I read about the Cambodian genocide (before we travelled there). Included in that were ethnic minorities and intellectuals - even people who wore glasses or knew a foreign language. I commend your strength - this must have been so hard. Sending hugs and take care.

Erin Burbidge

Thank you so much for tackling this topic, Alie. I expect that it was nerve-wracking to conceive, research and edit this episode, and probably difficult emotionally to dig into such dark content. I think you did a great job covering this topic in a way that was respectful and even-handed, while not shying away from how this issue is being foregrounded in the discourse around the war in Gaza. And as a Canadian, I'm glad that Mercedes made sure that the episode touched on our own dark history of genocide against Indigenous peoples and our failings in implementing the recommendations of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission.

ניצן שליט Nitzan Shalit

Thank you for a fascinating episode, dealt with the needed sensitivity. However, you spoke incorrectly about a few important things that I wish to correct: 1. (1:14:23) The statement in the 2017 Hamas charter, about "fighting the Israeli state of Israel, and not the Jewish people" is just propaganda lies. The original 1988 charter is full of antisemitic sentiment, including the infamous Hadith about "the day of judgment will not come until the Muslims kill all the Jews". Doesn't get more genocidal than that... One should understand terms like "jihad", "dar al-islam", and anti-jewish sentiment within islamist groups to understand who Hamas are. 2. (1:28:05) The Palestinian refugee issue isn't that simple. Many of them where encouraged to leave by Arab leaders, and other were expelled because they actively took part in the attack on Jewish civilians, while the arab communities that didn't attack remained where they are and became equal right citizens of Israel. Also, in regards to modern numbers, I think it's important to mention that they are the only refugee group that gets to keep the refugee status over multiple generations, even after gaining a new citizenship (UNRWA). 3. (1:29:28) "Zion" isn't just "a part of Jerusalem" as you said, because in a greater sense it means "the land of Zion" = the land of Israel. 4. (1:30:00) Zionism does have it's roots as a modern political movement, but it is nonetheless a 2000 y/o sentiment. For centuries, every Jewish community is praying for the re-establishment of Jewish sovereignty and rituals in their ancestral homeland. Hence, it isn't separate from Jewish religion as you portrayed it, but actually an integral part of Jewish identity, taking form as a modern, active movement. Thanks again for your incredible work and fascinating podcast, stay blessed 🙏🏻

john galvin

Very well said. Some of these points are very important and harder to find because the assertations are taken for granted. Some things were outside the realm of the history of genocide, and probably could have been checked with other experts. Thank you for sharing.

john galvin

Frustratingly, I wasn't able to get my questions and thoughts submitted, but it was very brave to tackle the topic. I've been studying, following and learning more about the general topic and several specific examples for almost 20 years. It's very difficult to talk about, let alone sort of summarize even in to 2 hours :-) I would encourage a bit of caution with what we accept as true when it comes to the history of Israel and the long standing conflict with Hamas (et al). It is very tricky and there are a few narratives trying to assert themselves. the Charter of 2017 simply changed the label of who they were fighting, not change *who they were fighting. All Israelis were and are considered Zionists, the fight isn't against Israel because of how they identify religiously, but by being Jews who lived in the space (hence "from the river to the sea). it's all just very difficult to talk about, and you did very, very well.

Steffan Becker

I think you took on a hard subject and something that is super relevant right now, not just in the middle east, but globally. I found a lot of it enlightening and brave and important. I am a jewish in the US trying to walk the line of identifying the problems in my own communities while reconciling with the intensifying either flagrant, subtle, and even unintentional antisemetic rhetoric that is becoming more and more common. I genuinely was heartbroken when I listened to what came across as pretty intense subtext defending hamas's actions and implying that their actions were more defensible or understandable during this episode. You, for a long time, have been my favorite podcast. Someone who brings me comfort during hard times, but this was genuinely earth-shattering for me. I genuinely feel you're intention is not hateful or antisemetic, but I'd ask you to reevaluate some things stated and implied here. There's a lot to call to light about the atrocities being committed in the name of antisemitism and defense, and I don't want to underscore it with conditions or take away from the urgency, but there is still nuance to be considered around some context of the history and how people are being impacted outside of the immediate war zone. There feels to me, some intense bias. I don't think I fully encompassed everything I wanted to get across, nor as elegantly as i wanted to, but it felt like I just needed to get it off my chest because of how much some of this deeply hurt because of what your podcast has meant for me at different points over not only the last several months, but also the last several years of my life.

Jane Nelson

I have to say, as a human who has been trying to understand and navigate through everything happening right now, and as a person whose predecessors are a mix of Holocaust victims and survivors, this episode was the tether keeping me grounded. And reading the pre-release feedback and the majority of the comments here is like a balm that soothes my burning soul. I don't see arguing, I don't see rhetoric or anger, just gratitude, grief, empathy, and honest feedback, backed up by specific reasoning and emotions. So thank you, Alie, for this (and every) episode, but also for creating content that has attracted this community of ologites. Many levels of thanks here.

Enik's Tunic

Thank you so much for covering this topic. It’s painful but we need it!

Ann Marie Wierzbicki

I'm taking a quick break from the podcast to say thank you for making it so palatable you have the best soft sense of humor caring humor.

Ann Marie Wierzbicki

I'm taking a quick break from the podcast to say thank you for making it so palatable you have the best soft sense of humor. Caring humor. Thank you danke schoen merci miigwetch. Now I'm going to attack my laundry again as I listen further about atrocities

Ann Marie Wierzbicki

Taking another break because I have to ask if you are aware of Isabel Wilkerson and her book Caste The Origin of our Discontents. I'm taking this break because her book creates a new and vital framework for language we use around racism and genocide. She lifts our thinking of racism and the things we've tried to attach to it related to the issues of genocide and atrocity.

Ann Marie Wierzbicki

Another thing wilkerson's book does is give us a better framework for understanding how the capitalist patriarchal system is the ma that is provided its power through not a racialized system but it caste system. Thanks for weaving this discussion into what my head is constantly been roiling around with

PopsicleEmperor

I would like to say it may be really important to recognize, at some point in the recording, the background that this professional is coming from. There's a lot of privilege of not belonging to a marginalized and persecuted group to be able to study, make a career and write about genocide happening to other marginalized and often racialized groups. I'm wondering if this can be mentioned somewhere?

PopsicleEmperor

I wanted to respond to this and echo the idea that Zionism of the past and present and how its being talked about in other parts of the world are not inherently the same.

PopsicleEmperor

Also just wanted to say thank you for all your hard work ologies team. Allie i could hear in your voice the emotional challenges of being the host on such a subject. just wanted to say i see you and thanks for this! Please make sure you all get some rest and can decompress.

PopsicleEmperor

Just a note that the term 'aboriginal' in a Canadian context is very different often (deemed problematic to use unless self-identified by indigenous folks) avoided versus an Australian one

Between Dumplings

Offering a couple of personal observations about 1/3 of the way through: 1. Being an open-hearted, empathic person in this world is very hard 2. This is a very complex topic and what’s not complex is that humans are capable of brutality that is unfathomable 3. watching what we see, even passively takes a toll on us 4. The slide into torpor is almost inevitable 5. The only salvation I have found is working locally to make some lives better (do what you can, where you are, with what you’ve got) Sometimes people will share info that is beyond horrific and it can be impossible to un-hear or un-know. What do we do with this?

Gill Hill

This episode is the one (after 2 years of listening for free) that made me a patron.

Aaron Wood

This was a hell of a listen… but very useful one, especially the specifics about the legal definitions vs the court of public opinion. The emotional impact was audible in your voice. Thanks so much for tackling this very difficult subject.

Jenny

Thank you, Alie!

Chandler Witherington

If I had to describe this episode in one word it would be: Important. I listened once but am going to listen at least once more time to fully grasp everything (though that’s probably not possible)

Emily Krieger

the list of i think it was seven nations including the U.S., that the U.S. requested an anonymous vote for...that is so damning and will live in my brain a long time. even worse is it tracks b/c the u.s. was built on genocide.

Alie Ward

Oh I did not defend the violence of any aspect of colonization and war. This talk is with a foremost expert on the matter and it's important to understand and acknowledge how defense against colonization is regarded. It's a very tricky subject and at this point in the conflict, the death toll of civilians in Gaza has reached levels of global humanitarian concern, hence the actions of the international courts. It's all gutting, and experts agree only building to more and more cyclical violence.

Alie Ward

He does mention that early in the episode, and that he has a privileged background compared to many of his students

Alie Ward

Thanks, I believe we used it only in an Australian sense.

Steffan Becker

I'm not disagreeing with anything stated above, infact I agree whole heartedly and I'm not trying to finger point or condemn. I am however just trying to state my perspective of how some of it was perceived, so I apologize if any of that came across differently, there's a constant feeling of defensiveness that has been present with me since the onset of the this most recent cycle, having to defend my jewishness and jewish existence and simultaneously defend against those more bigoted in my culture for the rights of Palestinians and to not allow the actiosn of this israeli administrationto be justified/ contextualized, because this kind of violence should only be condemned, so once again apologies if I'm misinterpreting, but I felt it come across a certain way at one or two points during the the asides. I am not trying to invalidate the expert or you. You're someone i admire. Maybe defend is the wrong word but explain away or contextualize the actions still feels appropriate. I agree the pressingness of the loss of life in Gaza and the settlers in the West Bank hold a serious sense of urgency, but I feel addressing the complexities of the region, antisemetism, and the extremism on both sides of the border in tandem is necessary to move forward in any kind of meaningful way. And i see your desire and acts to do so in this epsiode, which is appreciated greatly, but i feel its something that needs to be spoken about continously from multiple perspectives, especially to people with platforms, so I guess thats what i was trying to do in these comments, is add an additional perspective. Palestinian rights has been something important to me since long before the most recent cycle of violence, as has antisemetism/ threats to my existence because of it.

Steffan Becker

I'd also add there is a difference between defense against colonization and extremist antisemetism, which is a core tenent of Hamas and has been since their onset. That same kind of extremism is what is used to justify the actions of the israeli govt now, because the same argument is and can be made that Jewish people were pushed from this land because of Arab colonization ( amonst other empires) and the founding of israel as a state is the reintegration in to an ancestral land (it obviously didnt happen that cleanly, I understand the displacement that happened). So I dont accept the idea of contextualizing any of the violence of defending against colonization, because that is how this all happened in the first place. There is a western narrative attempting to blanketed over the entire regions history that puts these two peoples' in to a bubble in which they are supposed to exist and doesn't acknowledge the regional politics that have and continue to play in to repeating these cycles of violence, not to mention all the western influence and meddling that has also stoked the flames.

ניצן שליט Nitzan Shalit

Yes, I'm aware of the fact that many times "Zionism" is being talked about in a specific way in the US and Europe. Unfortunately, most of the times it stems either from simple ignorance about the meaning and the history of this term, and other times it's just antisemitism disguised as a legit political opinion ("Jews rule the world/media/banks" 👉🏼 ""Zionists" rule the world/media/banks".

Theodwyn6137

I was enjoying this episode up to the point where Dr. Moses used the term “occupation” to describe the status of Gaza. After listening to him describe in detail the exact legal definition of “genocide,” I was surprised and saddened to hear him use this loaded word in a factually incorrect context. Gaza is a separate country with its own government, which has complete control over its territory. The definition of “occupation,” which is readily available on Wikipedia, is as follows: “the temporary control exerted by a ruling power's military apparatus over a sovereign territory that is outside of the legal boundaries of that ruling power's own sovereign territory.” (I am aware that Wikipedia is an open-source project, and if anyone has a definition of “occupation” that they consider to be more “legit,” as from a scholarly source, please feel free to reply with it). The State of Israel does not exert any control over the governing of the sovereign territory of Gaza; they built a wall on their own border in an attempt to protect their citizens (and guests) from terrorism—to little avail, as we saw on October 7. Regardless of my own stance on the Israel-Hamas conflict, the fact is that using such loaded language in this patently incorrect context has the exact opposite effect of “lowering the temperature” of debates over the issue—which Dr. Moses claims to be one of his goals. It seems quite disingenuous to spend most of the episode dissecting the legal definition of “genocide,” another loaded word, and then to casually toss out the term “occupation.” There are only two possibilities—either he does not know that he is applying the term incorrectly (which would be surprising, in light of his academic background), or he does know, and he is using it anyway. Either way, his credibility is badly damaged, at least in my eyes.

Theodwyn6137

Another note—from what I understand, Israel has been quite clear that they consider themselves to be fighting Hamas, specifically. So when they make a statement such as “we are fighting human animals,” are they referring to the citizens of Gaza (which would include Hamas), or to Hamas in particular? Neither interpretation is provable. However, there is a huge difference between the two. I do not agree with labeling any people as “animals.” I agree that is dehumanizing, which is something to be avoided. (I do understand the sentiment, as I, personally, feel that humans who rape, dismember, and murder other humans, and kidnap and terrorize children and babies, as Hamas has done, are behaving like animals). I think it fits with the “genocide” narrative to assume that Israel is attempting to dehumanize all the inhabitants of Gaza, i.e. Palestinian people in general. One difficulty in that narrative, which I do not hear discussed frequently, is the attitude of the State of Israel toward people of Palestinian ethnicity who live in Israel. Palestinian citizens of Israel have the same legal rights as Jewish citizens and hold office in the political and judicial system. They have the same ethnic background as the people living in Gaza, and they have been allowed to live peacefully in the country for decades. Furthermore, in spite of the war, there do not appear to be any Palestinian internment camps in Israel. Palestinian people are not being killed, expelled, or removed from office. I am surprised that this point was not mentioned in the episode. I understand that time is limited, but if the Israel-Hamas war is going to be discussed in an episode about “genocide,” after Dr. Moses spoke at length on issues of ethnicity and “racialization,” then it seems a glaring omission to ignore the Palestinian population within the State of Israel. Genocide was clearly defined as a deliberate attempt to wipe out a nation. The Palestinian population in Israel is a part of that nation. If Israel truly desired to commit genocide and wipe out the Palestinian nation, would they not also target the population within their own borders, which is far more accessible than that in Gaza?

Kate Oldham

Came here to share similar thoughts about Zionism—the actual definition has been taken over by those just wanting to support Israel at all costs. I’m Jewish and consider myself a Zionist, in the sense that I wish for the Jewish people to have our homeland be a safe place. That being said, I’m of course horrified at what the current state of Israel has done to innocent Palestinians. There is space for both of these feelings, but man is it hard to explain it to anyone who isn’t Jewish.

ChickenChomper

I really enjoyed this episode Alie. <3 I know it must have been an extremely hard one to write, not only because of the seriousness of the topic, but because you put so much effort and work into getting the facts - and so many of them! Thank you to you and your team for doing such amazing work and breaking down this subject into manageable bite-sized bits. Also thank you Alie for reading my question and thank you Dr. Moses for answering it! <3 That made my year :)

ChickenChomper

Also, just one quick thought I had during the episode. Why is it that the phrase "women and children" is used so routinely by everyone? For ex, "the war was terrible because women and children were killed." I feel like we are in a way categorising women as weak and as innocent as children - which is not true. Its just a phrase that kinda erks me whenever I hear it, but maybe it's just me?

Kelsey Wood

I'd just like to point you to the Wikipedia article on Gaza, in which the UN and the Red Cross has a similar view to the guest on the occupation of Gaza: "Despite the Israeli disengagement, the United Nations (UN), the International Committee of the Red Cross, and many human-rights organizations continue to consider Gaza to be held under Israeli military occupation, due to what they consider Israel's effective military control over the territory; Israel disputes that it occupies the territory.[18][19][20] The current blockade prevents people and goods from freely entering or leaving the territory, leading to Gaza often being called an "open-air prison."[21][22] The UN, as well as at least 19 human-rights organizations, have urged Israel to lift the blockade.[23] Israel has justified its blockade on the strip with wanting to stop flow of arms, but Palestinians and rights groups say it amounts to collective punishment and exacerbates dire living conditions,[24] which have resulted in an ongoing famine.[25]" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip

A softly boiled egg

This episode was fascinating and a super important one, thank you for making it. It's just really a shame that the audio quality for Dr. Moses wasn't great

MsMagoo

A very well done episode, albeit sobering. Why can’t we all just play nice?!? Love your brain Alie!

Kiana Taylor

This episode was so well done. Incredible, well grounded work.

Snarky Mermaid

I made my (adult )children listen to this, as what’s going on in the Ukraine and in Palestine is the first horrors they are aware of, and are terrified. So informative. Thank you for this episode.

Joe Lewis

Incredible work. Thank you.

Erin White

As I was taught to understand this, it is not a question of the strength or innocence of women, but rather reflecting: 1: Their frequent role as primary caregivers of families, regardless of whether or not they are mothers themselves 2: Women (particularly in the areas and contexts discussed) are less likely to be soldiers, less likely to be armed, less likely to have legal or political agency, and at a greater risk of personal assault by militant forces. So, it's not that women are weak, so much as they have different factors to deal with.

Marianne Thomas

Super late to listening. It was a heavy one to approach. I have to admit that despite trusting you to approach this carefully, I was still nervous. I am so glad you made this episode. I'm impressed I found it bearable to listen to in view of the subject. It was so thoughtful, and incredibly informative & clear. I consider myself fairly politically informed & historically aware, but I learned so much. Thanks to the guest, to Alie, Mercedes, & the whole team