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Discussion thread! New episode is live: Agnosology (READING) (Patreon)

Published:
2024-05-30 18:20:54
Imported:
2026-06

Content

This week's episode is all about ... READING!

Historian Dr. Adrian Johns is the author of "The Science of Reading" and I we sat down to discuss how long humans have been reading, why some languages look the way they do, insights on sitting still and finishing a chapter, speed reading strategies, e-books and audiobooks, the history of dyslexia advocacy, and so much more.

Also: what's on his nightstand?

I hope you enjoy it and feel free to tell us what you're reading right now or your favorite book!

Page turning,

Ol' Ward

Files

Anagnosology (READING) with Dr. Adrian Johns - alie ward

Clay tablets! Printing presses! Old timey audio books! Speed reading strategies! Attention spans! Dyslexia history! Literacy campaigns! Dr. Adrian Johns is an historian, professor, and author of the book "The Science of Reading" and we have a nice mellow chat about when humans started to "read," wha

Comments

SayaMatsuki

As both a librarian and a lifelong reader I absolutely cannot wait to listen to this!!

Kelly King

I'm currently halfway through my masters in library and information science and I was so excited about this episode that I listened to it first thing this morning. I also found out I can borrow the ologist's book from my university library, so that's on my to-do list.

Alie Ward

Niiiiice! How do you feel about digital archives being behind paywalls? I'd love to get a librarian's take!

Alie Ward

Hell yeah! Curious how you feel abut audiobooks!

Alie Ward

Got any books reccs you want to throw down?

Yasmine Alu

I just finished the Goldfinch and am now onto Breakfast of Champions!! I’m very excited for this episode :)))

Mykenzie King

I read 100+ books a year and that is not an exaggeration, if I had to narrow down my suggestions it would be: -Educated by Tara Westover -The Song of Achilles Madeline Miller -Lightlark by Alex Aster -The Color Purple by Alice Walker

SayaMatsuki

Hi Alie! Audiobooks are great! I just finished Lay Them to Rest by Laurah Norton last night (highly recommend both the print and audio versions btw)! To me it doesn’t matter how you’re consuming a book, it just matters that you’re doing it! 😁 I also try to tell everyone I can about Libby where you can get audiobooks, ebooks, and magazines for free all through your local library right on your phone or tablet! They don’t pay me to promote it, but it’s just such a great service.

Stephanie Broertjes

I'm on the last book of the Broken Kingdoms series! 9 books + 2 in a related series. The finale of a Court This Cruel & Lovely series just released today so that's next. (All of these are fae sm&t so fair warning lol). Excited for this episode!

Rabia Sadiq

The gasp I gasped when I saw this episode! As someone who grew up reading over 1000 books, I am a true bibliophile.

Jae Steinbacher

Halfway through and enjoying so far, but one thing stuck out to me -- I know folks who are low vision, and for them, listening to audiobooks is absolutely reading! When Dr. Johns talked about how we can adjust our pace, go back, etc. when reading, all of that seems absolutely achievable with the tools we have to rewind, speed up or slow down audio, etc. So just a tiny little bone to pick there about reading and accessibility :)

Zoe Litton

I love this episode so much! Its so interesting

Chandler Witherington

Nonfiction nerd over here. Currently reading: Indigenous Continent: The Epic Contest for North America by Pekka Hämäläinen. It is dense and very detailed but very good and gives a reality check to what we learn about US history and colonialism in schools.

Becki Grady

EDIT: See what I mean? I now see that this was not a call for questions, but a notification that a new episode was dropped. Maybe my questions have already been answered! Whoa boy, strap in! So. When I was diagnosed with MS in 2005, after a particularly bad exacerbation, I found that I was no longer able to recreationally read traditional books. Having been a life-long, avid reader, this was heartbreaking. But, I couldn't concentrate on the words, and absolutely couldn't retain enough to turn a page. Forget about fantasy/made up words - think Terry Pratchett. July of 2011 I finished my first full-length reading book in six years. I still cannot comprehend made up words and names, and my tastes have changed for subject matter (love me some Rosemary Mosco) but, I can now read. My question/s for the reading ologist is, what part of our brain is in control of reading and comprehension? Is it typical for TBI patients to lose the ability to recreationally read? Does he have any tips for regaining the lost retention? My recent reading list includes: Is Math Real, Eugenia Cheng As always, I love the show!

Alie Ward

What's your reading strategy? Like before bed? First thing in the morning? Give us focus strategies!

Claire Richie

I cannot express how excited I was to see Professor Johns, a historian whose work I use constantly in my English PhD work, on the podcast! Now more than ever it is so important for STEM and the humanities to be in conversation and to advocate for each other. It makes me so happy that Ologies is part of this conversation!

Alie Ward

Oh, later in the episode we talk about dyslexia and I mention that I'm a big audiobook person and I feel they are totally reading. So I'm with you on this one, and make that known <3

Alie Ward

Oh good! We worked really hard on it, making sure the audio was smooth and I wanted to add as much context as I could. so glad you like it!

Alie Ward

Oooooh, fuck yeah. Thanks for that recc. I'll add it to my Libby list! Anyone seeing this who doesn't know Libby in the US -- it's a great library app for e-books and audiobooks for freeeeeeee. https://help.libbyapp.com/en-us/6103.htm

Alie Ward

Thank you for this! We have an MS episode coming up we already recorded and I'll try to keep these in mind for an aside! xoxox

Alie Ward

Oh wonderful! The episode is dedicated to his late wife, Dr. Alison Winter, also an author and historian. Have you heard of her work, too?

Rabia Sadiq

Before kids, I just got into books like they were my whole world. A lot if my reading was done from high school to college. After kids, I read when I can, usually outside with noise canceling headphones. A chapter here and there.

Wandering Wyatt

Can’t wait to listen! Love, love , love reading. Recent faves: Fiction - Ragged Company & A Gentleman in Moscow Nonfiction - Crossings (Ologist Ben Goldfarb) & What an Owl Knows (Ologies Book Club community recommendation).

Kelly Hipskind

Sometimes I just feel like the episodes are made for me 😅 and I hope everyone feels that way! Currently I teach reading to little ones and I’m stoked to dive into this episode. I am reading A Philosophy of Loneliness by Lars Svendsen and I just finished up the Scythe trilogy by Neal Shusterman (it’s incredible and thought provoking and I recc it to all my friends who say they can’t read because it’s a YA novel and goshdarnit it worked! They’re reading again! And I also have a lil book club with my partner and my nephew because of this intergenerational lovely series!)

taylor

My favorite book: The Long Way to a Small, Angry Planet. It’s beautiful and heart warming and such great world building. Thanks for the great podcast episode that reminded me how much I love to read!

Claire Richie

Yes- I have several friends who use her work on memory! They’re both brilliant scholars, and it’s wonderful to hear Dr. Winter get her flowers as well.

Alyssa Berg

This was a great episode, but it bothered me that audiobooks were dismissed as not really reading. As a kid, I could read well above grade level but actually reading a physical book for more than a few minutes was all but impossible, no matter how desperately I wanted to do it. Reading for school was a huge challenge all the way through college, and I bent over backwards to compensate and felt hugely ashamed about struggling to read. Then in my mid-20s, I discovered audiobooks. Suddenly, I could sit/lay down/move around in ways that felt physically comfortable because I didn't have a book in my hands which helped me stay focused. I could listen at a fast-enough pace to stay engaged so my mind never wandered -- far faster than I could ever read with my eyeballs and at a pace that horrifies my family lol. And I could FINALLY visualize, process, and retain what I was reading in a way I truly never could when reading in print. It was like a whole world I had always desperately wanted to access FINALLY opened up for me. Now, I read about 50 books a year via audiobook and reading is one of my absolute greatest joys. And -- unsurprisingly lol -- I'm pursuing an ADHD diagnosis finally at age 31 and learning every day how to help my brain organize and process information in a way that works for me. Apologies for the long post, but I'm really passionate about this! Audiobooks are so important to me and are an accessibility tool for so many people. I couldn't read without them!

Alie Ward

that was his opinion -- but not mine -- which why I championed them later in the episode <3

Alie Ward

How do you feel about phonics vs. whole word??

Lene Olszeth

I'm currently reading "The book that wouldn't burn", so that pairs perfectly with this :3

Alie Ward

Oh my god lol -- my emoji heart at the end didn't come through! But yes, team audio books! I am up to reading like 2-3 books a month because of audiobooks and it's made my life so much better. ❤️

Kelly Hipskind

I use science of reading based intervention so I teach phonics explicitly and help students build phonological awareness skills. I will say, every student is so different, and I do have one student who really struggles with words out of context and therefore scores really low on a phonics assessment, but she can read anything you put in front of her in sentence-form. Brains are amazing and diverse! But overall, phonics > whole word when trying to reach most students.

Alyssa Berg

I really appreciated that you sang their praises :) And I fully get that for people who love the physical experience of reading a paper book, it probably does feel sacrilegious! But as long as we all have access to the same stories, I'm happy. The only thing I do read in print with ease is graphic novels -- another topic sure to spark the "is it REALLY reading??" debate haha

Michele C (BookGeekGrrl)

that series is in my top 10 faves for sure. of them all, I think The Galaxy and The Ground Within is my fave (but I really do love them all).

Erin Everton

Saw the mention of tablets and the printing press and now can’t wait to listen to this one on my commute home :) episodes that cover the history of things we consider commonplace tend to be favorites of mine (the gastroegyptology one may be top three fav episodes!)

Alie Ward

I hope you enjoy the 17th century diary; it was a highlight for me

Emily Krieger

The day I listened to this, my outgoing second-grader brought home a letter to parents that said in third grade there's a big shift, from learning to read to reading to learn, and I thought that was so beautiful 🥹

Jae Steinbacher

Awesome! I should have waited to listen to the whole thing!

Kelly King

Ugh! It is a complex issue. This will be lengthy, but you asked! 🤷‍♀️ I actually work as a graduate assistant in my university's library right now and recently did a paper on issues in digital archives for one of my classes. Libraries promote access for all, but archives can be tricky, particularly when they are still under copyright law. If something is under copyright, even if a university or other repository such as library or museum pays for access, they can't share that in an unlimited manner which leads to paywalls. In the case of a university, students usually have access because it is rolled into their other university fees. (Speaking of which, an episode on higher education and why other countries do it better would be great, LOL) some digital archives are also accessible to researchers, but only have on-site access, meaning you have to travel to the location to access the digital files. Born-digital documents complicate the issue further. For example, if an author gifts a repository all of their digital files including email correspondence, the repository can't legally allow access to those emails without getting permission from the other party. That actually goes for all correspondence, but as we all know, the sheer volume of things like emails makes the processing of sorting what is worth keeping slow going. So essentially, while librarians generally believe in access to all, we also believe in privacy and confidentiality. And of course for legal reasons there has to be care taken because many repositories are small nonprofits that can't afford a lawsuit, so they need to err on the side of caution. Lastly, archives in general is another really interesting topic I think people need to know more about! The process of deciding what gets saved and what gets thrown out is pretty incredible to me.

Melissa Hart

Oh, heck, yes. I'm the author of Better with Books: 500 Diverse Books to Ignite Empathy and Encourage Self-Acceptance in Tweens and Teens, which was inspired by studies finding correlations between reading fiction/memoir and increased empathy for self and others. I'm so excited about this episode, and I also want to say that audio books in my virtual library make me feel wealthy. Who doesn't love being read to? I listen to them over and over.

Olivia Lester

Oy I cannot wait to listen!! I started listening to books on Libby and it’s been such a life tip hack. Did I miss the call for qs for this??

Tania Magic Fingers

Yes it is REALLY reading. Audio books use to be called Talking Books. A term I loved and still prefer. It's the same information going in to your brain whether by your ears or your eyes. I had this feeling for decades that audiobooks were "cheating". It took a university professor to reassure me that it's not "cheating". She pointed out that poetry was suppose to to be read loud, as were the Greek plays and medieval literature. Public readings were the norm. I'm dyslexic and have ADHD. Audiobooks are my lifeline to knowledge, entertainment, joy, exploration and so much more. So plug in your headphones and nourish your brain through your ears. 🥳

Alie Ward

We actually recorded this last July, right before I got really sick with pneumonia, so we're still editing and releasing a few episodes from right before I was in the hospital! We like to mix up the subjects so some get released right away, and others stay in the bank before we edit, write and release them!

Caro Young

I have been looking forward to this episode for the longest time and binged it straight away, it’s so good! I’m also relieved to hear that speed reading is kind of a hoax as I used to beat myself up for reading too slowly.

Alie Ward

any way you enjoy a book is the right way

Jen

📚 I'm reading The Last Kingdom! ⚔️

Pam Murray

Unfortunately I’m really disappointed with this episode. I’m a teacher, and in education “The science of reading” refers to a body of scientific literature about how the brain learns to read and how to effectively teach reading. It’s really important science, that desperately needs a brilliant science communicator like Alie to share it so that parents and teachers can understand it. That’s what I was hoping for in this episode. It’s not what I got. Please consider a part 2 with a neuroscientist or education researcher who can speak to the actual science of learning to read.

Eating dog hair for a living

When I read, it makes me sooo tired. I have to listen to audio books instead of read them myself, cuz I never get through one!

Valerie N

Love, love, love reading in whatever form I can get. I was a children’s librarian for over 10 years and it is the most amazing thing to experience helping a child learn to discover books and the love of reading. It opens a whole new world!! I can’t wait to listen to this episode.

Susan G

Regarding banned books, I highly recommend everyone seek out and read Gender Queer by Maia Kobabe, which is the most banned book in America.

Leila Laco

Love all of Becky Chambers' books! My fave Wayfarer book is probably Record of a Space Born Few 🚀

Matt Ceccato

I work for an educational software company. Several of our products focuses on the science of reading and Science in general, too. I shared this episode at my company and you may see a bump in subscribers! (P.S. thanks again for asking my question!)

Scott Hanley

Real question, Do you really like Reese’s Peanut butter cups or is it a paid promotion? The secret has recurred at the beginning a second time making it seem less than a secret?

Betsy B

Do you think that the way we now move through media—clicking from thread to thread without much linearity—has changed the structure of writing/books today?

Daniella Napolitano

As someone with a master's degree in printmaking, I'm BEGGING for an episode on just PRINT (printology? print technology?) Loved hearing about how printed text helped spread reading but there is SO MUCH history and technology associated with printing. Lots of innovations happened between the first printed text to moveable type to offset printing and that's not even touching printing images.

Don Elliot

I have never been a fast reader, and don’t know I’d my ADD is involved, but for quite a while I’ve been unable to read more than a few pages of a physical book without falling asleep. I revive realizing I’ve been dreaming something instead of absorbing the text. Is this a known condition or am I just special in a very inconvenient way? (Btw, I don’t read books on device , just short attention span theater of everything). One of my self determined diagnostics for ADD is that I have only read a few chapters of every book I have started. Have many lying in wait for me to finish. Now with the sleep thing I’ve not made any progress when I’ve tried. Thanks for this ology.

Diane Heise

When I went to elementary school in the 60’s, we were not taught phonics. In college I took a class in phonics and could not get a grasp but it did help me learn why every one pronounced my last name wrong.

Margaret Downs

Super fun ep! I would really love to be an audiobook person but they just don't work for me, because I lose track of who the characters are. Same with podcast audio dramas. I can listen to some nonfiction audiobooks, and (obviously) podcasts, but my auditory processing isn't great and I usually need a visual stimulus to really keep track of a story.

Alie Ward

I understand that! He is really more about the history of reading than science necessarily and I tried to fill that in via asides but don't worry -- there are infinite -ologies!

Alie Ward

I grew up during the Reading Rainbow era and it was life-altering

Alie Ward

yes yes yes yes ps: happy pride, everyone~

Alie Ward

Oh my god, they are my fucking favorite for real. I ate one yesterday. I have a weird strict policy for ads that I will only endorse one when I really like it and I turn down ads all the time. So yep, ever since seeing ET in the theatres I've been a Reeses's person.

Alie Ward

YES. Completely. I think "cell phone novels" was a first symptom of that but tbh, for years I've wanted to make a podcast that is an ever-evolving novel with different writers doing one chapter a week, never knowing where it's going. Obviously called "The Novel" with each season a completed novel by a dozen or so different authors by chapter. Anyone in favor?

Alie Ward

Oh my god YES. Before I was a writer and podcaster, I was a visual artist, so getting my grubby fingers on paper and ink just sends me.

Alie Ward

Have you listened to the ADHD episodes linked in the show notes?

Alie Ward

And I think that is a wonderful feature if books -- letting your brain relax to sleep!

Alie Ward

Wooooow! I think maybe in the 80s I learned phonic but its bonkers how much more effective it is for people with reading struggles! Like, OF FUCKING COURSE. You learn what symbols mean with sounds!

Alie Ward

I get that! I am new to audiobooks this year but I personally space out if I don't listen at 1.5x speed. We are all different! I remember more when I read on paper, but I cannot sit still for that long. these days Whatever gets words and ideas and smiles and fuzzies and epiphanies in your brain i the right way!

Don Elliot

I think I have but will be revisiting now.

Scott Hanley

I get that. IG can be super hectic, but I saw a reel recipe to make a sauté pan size Reese’s peanut butter cup at home and sent it to @ologies inbox from @vvrroomm68 account.

Pam Murray

Yes, that’s it exactly, it was the history of reading not the science of it. And the science of reading desperately needs communicating, so it would be wonderful to cover if you could find the right guest. And they could answer all the dyslexia questions! Thanks for addressing my concern and for the asides in this episode. I remain a huge fan.

Daphné Cloutier

Great episode, as always! Also, I don’t always comment, but I always listen until the end to hear your secret, and this week I couldn’t help but to comment just to say « Fuck that douchebag runner » As an AFAB, visibly queer jock who had to co-exist with cis straight gym bros my whole life, this guy doesn’t get to complain. The day you feel uncomfortable and unsafe just existing in the space where you just want to work out in, then maybe you’ll get to be sassy. In the meantime, shut your privileged mouth and just keep running.

Margaret Downs

Omg I always fangirl when I get a response from you!! Maybe I ought to try speeding up. I'd been resistant to with podcast audio dramas because they're so often sound-engineered with music and such, but it might work for me with audiobooks. Love, love love that sentiment too of getting words and ideas in your brain!! Semi-related, I'm working on like "re-training" my mind's eye because I had the ability to picture stuff as a kid but have mostly lost it, and I think that's a lot of my issue with audiobooks.

Katherine Lange

On collective reading (or not) - My dad was a philosophy professor. He said one of the games profs would play in the summer was sharing the most embarrassing book you’d never read.

Brenden O'Donnell

You read my question about reading education approaches and I screamed at the top of my lungs! My husband ran in the room worried about me.

MadiCakes

What is up with dyslexia? How common is it? Why does it make reading feel like such a chore?

Hope J 🏳️‍🌈

This was so great! I love reading and studying printing history and other topics related to books. I like that you asked his opinion on if audiobooks or ebooks count as reading. I, personally, used to look down on audiobooks and questioned how anyone could listen to a book, but recently I’ve converted to listening to audiobooks. I mostly listen to non-fiction at work because it’s similar to listening to a podcast. Also, thanks to the app Libby, I’m actually reading books online more because my local library system isn’t open enough, due to lack of funding, for me to physically check out books anymore, which makes me sad.

Hope J 🏳️‍🌈

I second this! I love learning about printmaking and thankfully have a press studio at my place of work where I can do some. Reading and printing are such fascinating topics that don’t get covered enough!

Betsy B

Sounds sooooo fun!!

BookBeets

Another great episode! Have you ever considered a show about dyslexia? I’m a former librarian that loves history of printing/reading. As a mom to 2 ADHD & dyslexic kiddos I was glad to hear dyslexia, reading instruction and audiobooks mentioned. But I have to disagree with Dr. Fletcher - how is dyslexia not a neurodevelopmental disorder?! BTW, the ADHD episodes were incredible. Thank you!

Courtney Peterson

Currently getting caught up on all these episodes. I love it! The secret at the end of this one had me floored. 🤣 the audacity of that runner !