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Well, we did it. We fit an -ics into an -ology. So many of you -- for years -- have been asking for a math episode and I was able to track down the best person in the world for this: Dr. Eugenia Cheng, who wrote an entire book on the math questions we’re too scared to ask, like: IS MATH REAL HOW DO WE EVEN KNOW HOW DID PEOPLE INVENT IT AND WHY DOES IT SCARE ME.

We also talk about cookies.

Did you listen yet? I always looooove hearing what you thought and having a discussion with you wonderful Patrons who make the show possible. Without you I might just be telling Gremmie facts all day but she gets distracted by lizards. 

Let’s math chat,

Your Father Alie Ann Ward

Files

Abstract Mathematology (UH, IS MATH REAL?) with Dr. Eugenia Cheng - alie ward

Math wants to be friends. Let mathematician, author and Abstract Mathematologist Dr. Eugenia Cheng introduce you to a secret world: the artsy and emotional side of math. Dr. Cheng helps answer the age-old and (recently viral) question, "IS MATH REAL?" We chat about Fibonacci sequences, golden ratios

Comments

TJ Mckenna

It was such an amazing episode! I’m attempting to finish physics right now and this gave me an extra motivational boost!

Lisa

It was so great! It was reassuring to hear that we aren't born math/no-math and our interest and success stem mostly from our support and opportunities. I loved math until geometry in 10th grade. I had the worst math teacher who just killed my love for it. It was the last math class I took (not counting an equally terrible accounting class in college). Maybe I can get my kids to teach me math. They out-learned me in 5th grade!

phinn markson

thank god I'm just in life sciences ;) I say sooo often...We just made math up. It's self-referential so of course it makes sense/facts checks itself. ;) But my great grandmother was named Eugenia, my grandmother was named Eugenia, and my aunt. My mother was overjoyed to NOT be named Eugenia.

Piper Jones

I loved how positive she made math feel! It made me want to go back to high school and take math more seriously!

Alie Ward

Oh that's so great to hear! I was inspired to just power through things and not give up when I'm learning something

Alie Ward

I hope that math teacher listens to this episode. Or decided to run a bakery instead.

Alie Ward

I love that name! But in our mom's era is was probably less cool.

Alie Ward

she takes such a great angle toward it -- she's as reassuring as some therapists, ahaha!

Alie Ward

Thank you so much, Sam! I was nervous that folks won't click on math, so that's nice to hear!

Alie Ward

Also thought son common core, as a parent?

phinn markson

Undoubtedly so. Especially when it's the family name coming at you. Like all things though, what was once cool gets uncool and becomes cool again. The circle of cool ❄️

Lisa

I love it. The only people complaining about it were those who didn't take five minutes and actually look at it. It makes a lot of sense and the skills build on each other each year MUCH more clearly than back in my day. It was also fun when they asked for help, all I had to say was "huh, I never learned it this way, can you show me how the problem should start?" They'd show me and would end up figuring it on their own.

Andrew Piechocki

At the very end of the episode, you asked what it was when everything just clicks, I think Eureka moment

Alie Ward

I thought about that one, but that seems to generative, like discovering something new instead?

Andrew Piechocki

Maybe Epiphany or Revelation? I may end up going down a rabbit hole on this 😅

Eating dog hair for a living

Girl I'm so bad at math. I have like a mental block on it. I'm 55 and still can't do my times tables, add or subtract in my head, shit I have to count on my fingers still. I'm very math stupid

Corey

Hey Alie, I'm 32 minutes in and I'm thinking about how in my population health paper we learned about somewhere with a counting system/ base of (I think) 17- or another much higher number? (Aside I went back to Uni this year to study towards a BSc in Neuroscience and psychology because of Ologies- among some things. Thank You) but.... But, that is to say, Ive no doubt there are uncountable math systems which have been developed. Math is a language, I guess?

Eating dog hair for a living

But give me a recipe, or a dog to groom and it's all good. Like right now I have my pumpkin pie in the oven that I made the crust for, roasted and pureed the pumpkin for and made the crust all fancy like your mom

ScienceInTheArt

I learned later in life that math is not really that difficult if you have the right teacher. Then it becomes powerful magic.

ScienceInTheArt

I bet there is a little math involved in a great pumpkin pie recipe.

Lucy McGuffie

This is the episode I didn't know I was waiting for! I actually majored in math in college, but that was so long ago and I don't work in a math adjacent field, so I had nearly forgotten why I studied it in the first place. Even though I don't use theoretical math in my day to day life, it's an important reminder that math education helped to develop problem solving and critical thinking skills that are so very important. Thanks Alie and Eugenia for reminding me what I loved about math! ❤️

Chris Moore

What a most wonderful delight! Eugenia so clearly and powerfully communicated what I have known and what I did not previously know about mathematics. What an absolute gem of a guest and episode! I don’t have the words, but give my most strongest and sincere thanks ❤️ I especially appreciated Eugenia’s reference to bad/traumatizing instruction. Years ago Hersh and John-Steiner’s “Loving + Hating Mathematics” argued, in part, the similar idea that the polarization of math is because of bad experiences/teaching. If math was more accessible/presented more universally in this country, people’s quantitative reasoning would vastly improve, which would have all sorts of just profound consequences for us as a country. Perhaps the most impactful arguments Cheng made was mathematics and reasoning as a form of empathy. Blew my mind, and I know have months of things to think about! Thank you 😭❤️😭❤️

Alie Ward

OH I DID. I explored a whole warren. I was going to record a whole aside on the 1932 origin of the British idiom “when the penny drops” but I didn’t want to blather at the very end of the episode

Alie Ward

Oh those are great observations and I’m earnestly so glad you liked it!

Alie Ward

YESSSSS! Y’all have wanted a math episode for years and we did it!

Alie Ward

Aaaah, congrats on the Uni return!! That’s so great!

Alie Ward

Listen and report back! And as your Grandpod would have said “fax me a piece of that pie”

Lucy McGuffie

I missed the call for questions and I would have loved to get Eugenia's take on a philosophical question that doesn't really have an answer. Is math invented or discovered? The word "invented" is used a lot with math, but I prefer to see it as "discovered". To me, math is a symbolic way to describe patterns in nature, planetary motion, laws of physics, etc. - all of which existed in perpetuity before humans had a way to understand and describe them - and will continue to work the way they always have whether we humans understand them or not.

Hankie Mundane

Same about 10th grade terrible geometry teacher!! I’m ok at math generally, really enjoy algebra, but geometry with a bad teacher stalled me. Years later I was holding a poster board over my head, saw my reflection in a window, and had this clear realization that I was just taught geometry poorly in the 2D! Why are we learning 3 dimensions on paper and supposed to understand?!?!

Hankie Mundane

I also can’t do my times tables or add or subtract simple 1-2 digit numbers. But I’m very good at algebra!!! I met a man who’s an engineer, but doesn’t know his times tables!! It doesn’t mean you’re bad at math! For me it just means I’m terrible at rote memorizing. I dropped out of two vacation bible camps and the cheering squad because I couldn’t remember the words to stuff. I failed the state capitol teat because I cannot memorize. Or spell. But I’m great at knowledge, science, understanding anything (algebraic formulas!), and storytelling. I can only remember if I understand ‘the story.’ You seem similar. It’s not the math, it’s just the learning style. School doesn’t teach many of us well.

Hankie Mundane

I bet you’d be great at math that is applied. I took a stats class through the psychology dept, so every lesson and problem was taught through a case study and statistical analyses of tangible data. It was so fun to learn that way.

James Nance

This is on my list of episodes to listen to this weekend! I wanted to comment with a book recommendation for those that particularly enjoyed this episode: Mathematics for Human Flourishing by Francis Su. It's a beautiful story and a powerful argument for how studying mathematics can help us flourish as human beings.

Lisa

Maybe we had the same teacher. 🤣 Algebra was my favorite, too! I like your geometry epiphany!

Design 83

I love math - even though I’m nit great with it! It’s like a secret core language (that’s not really secret) that people all over the planet use. Thank you for this episode!

Raja

In teacher world, it's often called an a-ha moment!

Raja

Great episode! Loved her approach to math and the world. Inspired to read her book! Before even hearing the Fibonacci piece, I was reminded of Vi Hart's math in nature, doodling in math class segments. Highly recommend, Ologites!! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahXIMUkSXX0

Ted Vician

I have always thought that people took the wrong lesson from 90s Barbie saying “math class is hard,” or whatever it was. I have a degree in math and I agreed with her statement plenty of times. She never said she was quitting, just acknowledging it was a difficult subject.

Nevena Georgieva

Eugenia was amazing!! These two math/life lessons from the ep just blew me away: "Math is about not making assumptions that you don't need to make." "It doesn't matter what something is, it matters what it does." But also: now I want more math! Can you please consider doing a statistics episode? It's scary how easy it can be to use 🍒-picked data to shore up fake narratives about the world. I feel like we can all use becoming better at spotting flim-flam 😌

Between Dumplings

Great episode! I'm 61 and it took me DECADES to realize that I'm probably not bad at math, as I have a sort of intuition about relationships. Had a terrible teacher in 7th grade who had been teaching the same stuff THE SAME WAY for probably thirty years and when I raised my hand and asked him to explain it in a different way, he could not. Or would not. Just kept repeating the same thing. I assumed it was my lack of ability. I went home and told my parents and they said "Well a lot of girls are better with writing, you're good with words, do your best." Or something along those lines. I loved Geometry conceptually, but then I didn't have the algebra to solve the problems. I don't know how I passed that. That's as far as I went. It's not that uncommon. Now I see it was more a failure of that teacher to try a different approach. This was btw, the same school that said I could not take Shop because I was a girl. I asked the Principal if that was his opinion or the law. (cojones at 13) He lied. I made my mother come to meet him, assuming he would not lie to her. I knew he was lying. He told her girls were not allowed to take Shop. I had to take Home Ec. Don't you know there were two girls in that Shop class?! F*ckers.

Witch of the Widdle Wiggly Guys

This epsiode was both infuriating (with the reminders of all the barriers and discouraging/irrelevant ways that math is taught to students) and also so inspiring. Eugenia speaks so BEAUTIFULLY about how math is not just practical but also philosophical and full of limitless (math pun?!) curiosity. Also RIP to my off brand high school graphic calculator thats probably sitting in a landfill somewhere 0_o

Brooklyn Baron

“We thought we’d have flying cars, but really just want health care.” Yesss!!!!!!! Also, loved loved loved this episode. My brother-in-law is a mathematician and got so excited when I told him Eugenia Cheng was going to be a guest. She is brilliant and math is beautiful ❤️

Guido

Fibonacci died before the tower of Pisa was completed, but he was probably alive when they were building the last floors and he managed to accurately measure its inclination

Hope J 🏳️‍🌈

Loved how she talked about math and relating it to the world around us! I loved math and was good at it until I reached calculus in high school, but I would have loved to have her as my teacher for the more difficult math. I took the easy way out by taking statistics in college as I was a humanities major, but my grandfather, who received his PhD in math, always loved to talk to me about my statistics class years after I took it.

Alie Ward

Let me know if you liked it! Also I read an excerpt from Eugenia's book in this week's Audiobook Mixtape

Alie Ward

A secret language is a great way to look at it -- I love that

Alie Ward

Ha, that's a good way of looking at it. A very optimistic way. Sadly girls get a lot of pretty fucked up messages and that was not Barbie's finest moment. (And that's saying something given that her bodily proportions have been a source of angst for girls for generations.)

Alie Ward

Stats would be great -- and so vital for science and scicomm. P-Values need to be dissected!

Alie Ward

Aww, thank you, Jackie! And arrgggh, makes me want a time machine to put a tack on your teacher's seat.

Alie Ward

I wonder what became of my TI87 or whathaveya...

Alie Ward

RIGHT?! Like I don't need to go to Mars, but I would love for people to have access to blood panels and chemo.

Alie Ward

Well, we do discuss it was constructed during his lifetime! I like to think he had options, like someone in a gentrifying neighborhood shaking their head at a new Starbucks...

James Nance

Loved it! I'm always amazed by how you seem to find the most engaging and energetic oligists to interview.

Alie Ward

Math teachers should be required to read her books, for sure!

Between Dumplings

You know he may have been a nice man and just not a good teacher…but thanks. LMK when you get that Time Machine done - many tacks to be distributed.🤣

Guido

Youngsters these days, they can't even build straight towers

Corey

I aced existential philosophy 💜 and that made one of the recent episodes a full circle moment for me- because ologies showed me people like me exist and can be in the world and go and study and live a life like that. Sorry, it all seems out of context and wierd. Oh and the original counting system - the number based on a higher number - was to say there *are* entire math languages and systems completely different to the 'western' 10 base, which enable entire different ways of being in the world which colonisation has often erased.... In a you are right in your wonderings 🤷😅 But yeah, thankyou and everyone who has made Ologies what it is.

Kristina Kunze

You have no idea how excited I was that you asked my question! 🥰 everyone in my life knows how much I love Ologies and they were equally as excited for me lol. “Imaginary numbers wtf” Her answer was so beautiful, I loved seeing math through her eyes and how it applies to other parts of her life and the world. “It doesn’t matter what something is, it matters what it does.” Also when she talks about how imaginary numbers relate to physics, she got me down a google rabbit hole! This was absolutely wonderful, whoever says math is boring should listen to this.