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720. Tales from the Pit: Bringing a Child into the World (Feat. Abe Epperson) (Patreon)

Published:
2024-05-10 13:00:12
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2026-06
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Content

Michael asks Abe Epperson, fellow Small Bean, to discuss his thoughts about starting a family. They discuss regret, happiness, and the anxiety of bringing a human into the world. Abe’s pretty satisfied with not having kids, but it’s always been on Michael’s list of life goals. Let’s see how these friends navigate the conversation from two different perspectives.

Buy Michael’s book: https://www.patreon.com/smallbeans/shop

Features:

Abe Epperson: https://twitter.com/abethemighty 

Michael Swaim: https://twitter.com/SWAIM_CORP


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Comments

Oliver Allen

When Abe said, "what is life if not a lie agreed upon?" My immediate thought was a truth to bear.

Ellen Swaim

I have one comment and one question. The comment is this - you don’t shape or form or create your kid - they arrive with their own point of view inside that tiny body, and their own individuality. You can only create an environment and watch them grow. It’s fabulous to meet them. And my question is this - should I have had children, Michael? And my answer is that it is still the best thing that’s ever happened to me, despite watching you go through what you’ve gone through the last two years. And one more comment. because Moms never shut up. The last two years were an aberration, and now you know what paths not to take.

drunkencoyote

I'm no great thinker, I have no art in me. I bask in the glow of wiser folks, like you kind Beans. I do, however have two sons and as I'm sure I've commented in other pods, have been looking forward to you speaking to this journey since you first shared it. So thank you. My boys are 20 and 1. I guess my dick is like the clown from It, I dunno. When I was 19 I was adrift trying to find meaning in the world through a philosopher's lens ala Hunter S. Thompson. I have had many relationships and many pregnancy scares with other partners up to this point. When scare turned to truth I didn't shrink, I felt it was the right time. I never shied or shirked but I didn't really understand until the first time I held my oldest. It was like I saw a new spectrum of light. That all I had sought, every truth led up to this moment wherein the world told me all I wanted to be was a father. It has been the best. My son grew up and although he shared traits, he was always his own man. He did not share my love or reading or TT rpgs but he and I have many things that are ours. You do not raise a copy of yourself. You protect a person growing into the world. And your most sacred charge is not to relive your life through them but to bring someone better than yourself into the world. That is hope, that our children will not repeat our sins. I often think of the John Quincy Adams quote, "I have to study politics and war so that my sons can study mathematics, commerce and agriculture, so their sons can study poetry, painting and music." I don't know how shallow your performance persona cuts to your real self Mr.Swaim but I've enjoyed your work since your Muskets days. Your art has provided me with much needed mental respite in the rough waters of the worlds. So even though I am just jack ass who patronizes your make em ups I really am rooting for you in your real life. When you express sorrow, anxiety or any other form of rising waters that madness takes, I hope that you find sturdy ground. I think, based on the lens I see you through in the world that you will make an awesome father. And in this I am rooting for you too. You strike me as a good man who I hope will raise kind children. The world needs more kindness. I believe the world needs more of you too. Forgive my babble, thank you.

SmallBeans
>>137654120

Wow, thanks for taking the time and the thoughtful words. I'm going to return to this post, I expect. There's a ton of wisdom in there and I'm trying to absorb as much of that shit as I can. Excited for the ride, we'll definitely talk through more of it on mic. <3Swaim

Antipaganda

Michael, you remind me of my best friend and second love, who also worries all the time about whether they're doing the right thing, and also agonised over having a kid, bringing up many of the same concerns. That care and consideration for other people is a large part of why I fell in love with them, and it also makes them a really, really great parent. We grew apart, so I'm only a sorta-uncle to this kid, but I see enough to know that the world is richer for my friend's decision. Abe, I share your philosophy, and have also been shouted at because of it. Thanks to both of you for all the beans, and I really appreciate the openness of the pit. I don't see this sort of content anywhere else.

Ryan (Kanserus Bone Saw) Bowdish

I've been following you since the cracked Era, and listening The Pit since it's inception and I can agree with Abe that you would be a tremendous father. In regards to not feeling mentally stimulated by your children, I can understand and appreciate that. I have a seven year old who I'm just beginning to be able to show a little more risqué movies and she really loves that she's getting a little treat that is kinda like dad and daughter's fun little secret. That's a wonderful feeling to bond over when you get to show your kid O Brother for the first time and even though it didn't connect with her 100 percent, she loved singing along and snuggling on the couch, and moments like those are absolutely refreshing. I'm going through probably the worst time in my life right now and just finding ways to get sober, and I'm not going to get into that much, but the point is, I have a two year old son and the quiet mornings where my daughter is in school and him and I are just pretending to drive his trucks and reading books and learning colors and shapes and then we put on a nature documentary and snuggle up for a nap are the most still, quiet and peaceful moments I've ever experienced, and though I may not feel entirely stimulated and part of me wishes I could play kingdom come or something, the contentment and healing that gives to my mental health is unlike anything I've ever experienced before or since. From one sober daddy to another-to-be, I wish you luck in all this, and in my experience, the worries will always be there, but the love trumps them every time.

jonny rulon

I believe in you Michael!

Rachael Perry

So, I’m not finished with the episode, but I have two major comments to share (and I had to mentally prepare to listen because PPD/PPA can be a real bitch). First is that I didn’t want kids AT ALL until I met my current partner. Like at all. I even hated babysitting when I was younger. I was always afraid I’d end up alone with no support. This is the result of purity culture that I don’t want to get into (and does not apply to the me I was when I met my partner anyway, but did still impact my opinion of procreation). I found a partner who I could rely on and made me feel like bringing children into the world with him, we would be safe. We have two children, a brand new three-year-old, and a nine month old. It’s scary as hell. And that first kid came out of nowhere at the beginning of the pandemic. We survived because we had to, but also because our brains literally changed to accommodate parenthood. Here is a book recommendation for you, Swaim, “Mother Brain: How Neuroscience is Rewriting the Story of Parenthood” by Chelsea Conaboy. Don’t let the title intimidate you; it’s about parenthood and the literal neurological changes that brains go through in male and female bodies during pregnancy and parenthood. It’s not the ditzy “oh, I’ve got mombrain,” thing that lots of pregnant people like to say to excuse exhaustion (note: I was still one of those people). It’s actual science, and it’s a tough read, but it’s fascinating. The second thing is that I was also hung up on whether or not this was a selfish act. Once I was pregnant, I was in it, and that question didn’t matter anymore. As the pregnant person, everything became about the fetus. I ate what I needed to, left out what I didn’t, I allowed myself to rest (something my anxiety brain and insomnia does not often allow), and I read A LOT about pregnancy (tell your partner to skip WTE, it’s not the end-all it used to be, and I have tons of other more inclusive recommendations). From what I gather, my partner’s focus became everything outside of nesting. He set aside money, he made food for me, he prepared the house in a more functional way. You and your partner seem to be more like us in that respect. One of you will nest and the other will do the rest. Some couples don’t even think of half the stuff you are now until the baby has been in their lives for months, and I just don’t understand that at all. I listened to more. I am scared every day. The world is shit. It’s scary to think of what our kids will go through, but we have to model the right behavior. Like, if we want things to change, we have to show them so they can take that baton and keep running. Keep the conversation open and share what you can. As a woman who identifies as such, I’m terrified my daughter will be raped or murdered because some angry man decided she deserves it. That’s just how I live. I’m constantly in guard for “that guy” in every location I am in, and I have to teach her to do that as well. I have to teach my son not to be “that guy.” Now, my daughter is only three, but I can two already she’s not going to take that shit. However, sometimes fighting back is the reason we get murdered, so it’s a real damned if you do, damned if you don’t scenario. I still have the kids. I am still teaching them. As they age, my lessons will, too. You can’t let the fear guide you more than the love. And, yes, they are your best friends for a long enough time that it’s worth it. Also, I yelled at her today, and she cried, and now we’re playing dinosaur. 🤷‍♀️ I have some depression issues and sometimes cry and can’t get out of bed, and she walked into my bedroom one time and saw me. She stopped and yelled, “daddy,” and she told him I needed hugs because I was crying. I’m trying hard to get a handle on it, which is hard with the PPD/PPA hormonal imbalances impacting my usual hormonal imbalances. But I’m also trying to use it for the kids, to teach them about emotions and that some people are different. My daughter is old enough now to understand basic emotions. I’m hoping it helps her empathy instead of hurts it. I will not know for a long time. I could be doing it all wrong. It’s what I feel like I need to do to function through those moments and avoid scaring her. I don’t know if it’s working. That’s also scary. It’s getting better, and I can tell you that I grew up with a parent who thought she was hiding those moments and she wasn’t, and I had to re-teach myself to properly feel and express certain emotions when I got older. I have no idea if she’ll be like me or be better than me. But I’m trying. The bottom line is: you will never be prepared, but you will be ready when that baby is physically here. I can’t tell you to relax, because you won’t, and that’s okay. Babies change you, and there’s not an easy way to explain it to people who don’t have them. Good luck to you both!

Arran Bouten

Thanks for sharing this conversation. I'm a new father of a 9 month old boy. My wife wanted kids 'in her bones' and it took me a long time to come round to it. So much of what you discussed was like a replay my own thoughts grappling with the decision. On connecting with kids, I felt very little for babies and kids before having my own, even my own nieces. With my own son, it was worrying over the first few months when I didn’t feel much of a connection. But that grew slowly and now having spent so much time with him, I've gotten to know his behaviour, his young personality and his quirks. I get him in a way I don't get any other kids and now feel so attached to him. It still gets boring and I still get frustrated but there is a bond there now that makes those challenging moments and thoughts easier to manage. Above all though having a child has strengthened my marriage. Not only through the rewarding shared effort that we've put in so far but getting to know our son together is like sharing a beautiful in-joke. No one else gets him in that way that we do. A noise or face from him prompts my wife and I to share a look or a laugh that has so much love in it between the two of us. My feeling is that parenthood can swing on the quality of your relationship with your co-parent. If it's good, you'll get so much joy and fulfillment out of the life changing hard work parenting brings. If it’s bad, it would be really bad for all involved. Which in a lot of ways makes me think being a single parent would be better than co-parenting in a bad relationship.

Jeff B

I never thought I would have a kid when I was young. Since having my son I’ve realized that I never truly loved anything or anyone before. The instant your child is born you have a million little realizations about your own life and things just seem to make a little bit more sense all of a sudden. It’s hard to explain but in my opinion it’s the single most fulfilling thing a human being can do and I highly recommend